17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[micmichd]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

[German Viking]

PS 2 has a point. I agree that harm was being done in this case. When I worked in Thailand I paid a boatload of taxes. I hope that money went to some good use.

Dreamer, good joke mate.

[German Viking]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

I think you missed the point, their money was going uncut to the thai economy, they paid only not in the big black taxhole.

Thai authorities should also give a focus on their own ppl to pay taxes, the foreigners a just a peedrop into the ocean.

[Fatty123]

If they had permits but were waiting for permits for the extra job, then they have my sympathy. If you're gonna lock up westerners for not having a WP, almost all have broke the law. By that, I mean most people start work while the WP is being processed. Despite this topic being about online workers, some have decided to take a pot shot at teachers within the school system. So, I'm gonna elaborate on that, using my own experience.

Many western 'teachers' in LOS are wholly unqualified and are probably never going to get a WP (unless they tried the highly dangerous and immoral fake degree route or see the light and go to uni) and they deserve deportation. Harsh? Maybe. Especially for those with families. However, I used to work out there without a degree. So, I'm no angel. However, I saw the signs and enjoyed teaching so much that I decided to return home (England) and go to uni to become a fully qualified Primary Teacher. I have a Thai wife and being apart is a killer (although I visit every six months). It's hard. I also have to work 20 hours a week in a call centre to help support myself. It's a killer, depressing at times but needs must. I'm on a mission (B.Ed ends next year). I would feel much worse if I was still out there 'ducking and diving, scrambling for any old visa and hoping that my school never gets checked for work permits etc'.

Do you think I wanted to leave my wife for a lengthy period? Life is about sacrifices and seeing what's coming. Ducking and diving around just got to me in the end. It became ridiculous and scary. I could see the minute Yingluck took office that the military would take over and things would become difficult for westerners. Those 'tefling' days without a degree are almost gone now. Some dudes I know are still out there with their wives and kids and refusing to get properly qualified to teach in Thailand. I'm not getting into the 'it's not fair' argument here. Perhaps it isn't. Some teachers without degrees are excellent. I've seen them. However, many are not. And Thailand is probably correct in asking for Education degrees or Education post grads to teach kids. Thing is, it's irrelevant in the end. No amount of ''It's not fair'' is gonna change things. Only you can.

Thai law wants you to have a degree in Education or any degree plus a post grad in Education to teach long term (PGCE/M.Ed etc). There may be ways around it (a few jobs at Language centres technically don't require a degree...but they usually ask for one). Unis also make their own rules, but many ask for a Masters at the very least, so it's pretty tough to get those jobs in reality.

Sure. Get a job in a Language centre for 30k a month (and no holiday/sick pay etc). I'm sure you can support your Thai family on that and retire in Thailand no problem . I've no sympathy with those refusing to see that it will be practically impossible to teach in LOS without the required credentials pretty soon.

Up to you to take that chance of course, but the selfishness of those with wives and kids leaves me speechless. What happens when 'daddy' gets deported after 10 years away from his home nation? Particularly if he's got no real work history/career and earnings needing to be at a pretty good level (for the UK anyway) to bring his family over. It was tough for me to get a part-time job after 5 years away (that surpised me..I thought being away and finding it tough to get a job was a myth).

Sadly, I can easliy predict a lot of suicides in LOS in the coming two years or so due to Teflers (with Thai families) being sent home. Sad, but my message to anyone out there teaching illegally is to get qualified and then return (if you love teaching). It's a sacrifice and a killer at times, but next year I will be able to return to LOS or anywhere else I may fancy (and not have to scrape the barrel when it comes to choosing a teaching job).

If you love teaching, get qualified. If you're doing it just to stay in Thailand, you're teaching for all the wrong reasons. Sorry.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Fatty123

[micmichd]

If you live in Thailand, use their infrastructure and their ATM, then taxes should go to Thailand. That will reduce your net income - by far not as much as in Europe -, but you get free access to Thai infrastructure in return. What's the problem?

[Tokay]

If you live in Thailand, use their infrastructure and their ATM, then taxes should go to Thailand. That will reduce your net income - by far not as much as in Europe -, but you get free access to Thai infrastructure in return. What's the problem?

Maybe if they would give people a proper work permit, for all types of jobs, those people would pay taxes.

Honestly, this isn't a difficult problem to solve.

[micmichd]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

I think you missed the point, their money was going uncut to the thai economy, they paid only not in the big black taxhole.

Thai authorities should also give a focus on their own ppl to pay taxes, the foreigners a just a peedrop into the ocean.

[Tokay]

Those dämned foreigners again.

Thai's would never do somethings like this.

You mean they would never think outside of the box to earn a living online like these blokes were doing? I agree.

[micmichd]

They do, my Thai neighbours also got checked.

[arthurwait]

This set up would have required at least 68 Thai employees ( around 680,000 Baht per month wages and social ) and 34 million baht investment or is it 19 MB ?

About 160,000 B per month in farang income tax ?

[Traveller45]

This is interesting. The consequences are considerable. It means that if I choose to reside in Thailand for a while and I pursue my business, working mostly online for international clients, NONE OF THEM IN THAILAND, that I am actually in breach of my Visa conditions, right? Bye-bye the dream of DIGITAL NOMAD sitting on the beach...

[jcisco]

It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name.

It does no such thing, and for that matter plenty of work permit holders doing their part to spread the wrong idea about foreigners.

Whose the bigger idiot??

[jcisco]

the law in thailand is not based on whether someone is being harmed or not

A somewhat intelligent attempt to dismiss the harm component of law creation by including the "In Thailand"

I see what you did there, and you killed a reasonable argument with this better luck next time.

[German Viking]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

But for Thai's it's allowed to abuse any bloody rule in their own country!!???

I think you got too much sun.

[jcisco]

Lets sum that up:

- 17 foreigners without work permit, so paying no taxes or social contribution

- 17 foreigners with a wrong visa

- hired by a company located in Chiang Mai (registered?, 51% Thai ownership ???)

- working all together out of one, central office

- with a fixed salary, paid in the countries' currency

I do NOT know ONE western country, which would tolerate such violations of the labour and immigration laws, if the shit hits the fan.

btw.: they would not risk that in Singapore, there they would end up in jail for a long time....

Oh Singapore, great example. NOT! You want to live in a police state, then Singapore is the place to move to. Have fun.

Singapore is a good example however in Singapore you would not need to risk doing so:

Labor laws have you covered to use foreigners if local labor unavailable or unsuitable. And there is two cases, if you using lower cost foreigners, than quota system can be avoided by paying a loading for over quota employee. So say if you have 6 locals and employ 3 S pass employees you might have to pay 300 a head extra to MOM for the 1 employee over quota.

If you were paying more for professionals for Q, Q passes there is no quota or rather there wasn't in the past, this might have changed in the last few years.

And to boot the Singapore taxation system is advantageous for this sort of business since the client is outside of the country. And depending how structured that with another corp elsewhere, might be a tax free situation. Yes thats right no paying tax, though income tax would still be applicable to the employees.

And 100% foreign ownership...

Thailand in this light, really a long way behind when compared to a success story of open markets, commerce and work force mobilization.

[German Viking]

The Law Is The Law.

Break it and you can expect to pay the consequences. Trying to worm-out of it by suggesting it was only a Minor Offence, is like saying you are only a "little bit pregnant."

For those of us who do have, or when we were working, had a Work Permit, it seems only fair that those who "don't bother" with complying with the Laws of Thailand, should be BOOTED OUT!

On the first hand we should not forget, that the Thai company which employed them, made a crime and abused the rules, and probably told them, there will be no problems with their working permits.

The company also having the duty to keeping everything in order.

[German Viking]

Those dämned foreigners again.

ja....velly goot wee kan speeika the engalish laike Thai do.....Forliner too mache ploblem rn too mache xpensive....they a tayking the Thai teecher jobs and nawt teeching .... we learn now too speeik engalish from Thai man.... velly goot.

Your German.....?...............

I guess no, sounds more like a mix of cockney, mixed with asian pidgin english maybe raised in south/southeast

of London or in Oz(Sidney)!!???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjGNJ5JL8w

[Beetlejuice]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Wrong.

Firstly, these farangs were probably working as a necessity to financially support themselves as do many illegal online foreign workers in Thailand because they are unable to fulfil the conditions and requirements of the Immigration Department to remain long term in the Kingdom. They are under a false impression that by working or running businesses discretely online that the authorities are not monitoring these activities and not likely to notice. These people cannot be regarded as anymore than cowboy teachers, probably not qualified for the job.

Also these people are jeopardising the livelihoods of the bona-fife foreign owed English language companies and English language teachers in Thailand by creating unfair competition to those who have registered companies, work permits, pay taxes, operating expenses and are required to have the appropriate qualifications and curriculum based teaching methods.

[German Viking]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

The colonists again permanent in trouble involved.

[German Viking]

A good example of how stupid and out of date the law is, when it comes to work permits. To get a work-permit requires hirering 4 Thais. So that company, would need 68 Thais on the payroll to make them coffee.

The law as it is now, just not only keep investors and entrepreneurs away, it also reduces the willingness for any company who needs foreign help, to grow their company here. With the current economical situation, you have to wonder, when Thailand will start to see foreign companies (where jobs are not taken from Thais) as an asset to the country.

This company, will simply just relocate and do business from another country. And the benefit for Thailand from that is??????????????

My suggestion for new acronym: DTR as in don't-they-realize?

Maybe better III ignorance, incompetence, intolerance!!???

[German Viking]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

We'd give them asylum, a house, car, welfare benefits, voting rights, free healthcare, citizenship...

Hey mate this sounds almost like germany.

[anon022]

Hey, I don't doubt that the law was technically broken here and blah, blah, blah, but this is certainly a case of selective prosecution that has nothing to do with maintaining law and order and everything to do with maintaining...hmmm, I'll leave that for now.

But I'm amused at all the moral outrage on display here for people that have the audacity to go to work and earn a living. I'm not advocating mayhem on the streets but the people involved were probably decent people just trying to get by in life. And make their way as they go.

And yeah, there are plenty of creeps that find their way to

thailand but just because somebody gets caught up in something like this doesn't give us free reign to condemn them as lowlifes. Stones and glass houses and all that.

Most of us on here should learn these lines by heart, thank you Beb.

[German Viking]

My GAWD this sounds like one of the worst jokes EVER: Three Americans, a Canadian, a German, a Dutch national, two Irish nationals, two Britons and two Australians walk into a condo . . .

Or wait, let's try this another way - Three Americans, a Canadian, a German, a Dutch national, two Irish nationals, two Britons and two Australians walk into a restaurant and were refused service cuz they didn't have a tie (Thai, get it?) 555555555555

I can only find 1 common denominator between all these nationalities, they just had a drinking party together and was just in the wrong place in the wrong time.

The thai authorities would'nt like to loose face and created a case, caused of some laptops standing coincidentally around on some desks.

Guys be careful in the furture, if you will meeting some friend at home and bringing your laptops just to change some photos or so, then in the worst case, you can getting in deep $hit.

[German Viking]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

............................ ...........................Hmmmmmmmmmmm, folk use English to communicate, which is great..........BUT, English is English, if you want to fool with it thats up to you, BUT, real English is how I speak.............

Queens english!!???

[German Viking]

They were also stealing money from the government as work permits require a fee.. should no one who steals be arrested?

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

I agree with you this is really big crime , the problem is not enough prisons for all the ppl who stole money from Thai government, not to talk all the other crimes.

[ILOOKFORWORK]

Working online does not require a work permit in Thailand.

[German Viking]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

Bavaria is somethings special in germany looking at their name "Freistaat Bayern" they sometimes claim to have their own country back again, similar like Texas in the USA.

[Rusty Keyhole]

It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name.

Thanks for your input Mr Perfect.

[luis888]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

Directly or indirectly they are paying/contributing to the Thai economy. By living in the country you're spending money, which means some of that money will have some tax attached to it.

[Travel Dude]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Try working in the Western world without valid papers or try staying there without valid visa. Why Thailand should be different? The law is the law, it's pretty straight forward.