Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

[quidnunc]

Well, if one is not an old fat cat with a large bank account, they can always get a real job, live legally, and be a normal person... I am glad they crack down on the extended tourists living off mom and dads handouts and contributing nothing to the country.

If someone is living off of Mom and Dad's handouts then they are contributing something to the country. Something called cash. You would be shocked at how many people - not just Thais - actually appreciate cash and think it makes a great contribution. Reallly, what planet do you hail from where cash is a bad thing?

[JulieM]

Well, if one is not an old fat cat with a large bank account, they can always get a real job, live legally, and be a normal person... I am glad they crack down on the extended tourists living off mom and dads handouts and contributing nothing to the country.

If someone is living off of Mom and Dad's handouts then they are contributing something to the country. Something called cash. You would be shocked at how many people - not just Thais - actually appreciate cash and think it makes a great contribution. Reallly, what planet do you hail from where cash is a bad thing?

But in many cases not much cash. The Thai authorities really don't want the guys with a monthly budget of US$600 or so. They want people spending that much every two days or so.

[Berkshire]

Farangs that wish to practice, teach or participate in the arts can do so in Chiang Mai, providing they obtain the appropriate permissions and permits according to their status and it``s completed officially and professionally, which means this has to be done on the terms of the authorities not at random by anyone that feels like it. The reasons being if that given a freehand there will be those that will abuse the system similar to those who run businesses and activities online without permits as a means of financially supporting themselves in Chiang Mai that are unable to meet the requirements of the Immigration Department.

Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable.

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

My thoughts exactly. People have been abusing immigration policies in Thailand for years. Any sort of loosening of the visa/work permit policy would invite even more abuse. And if it's related to the arts and culture, we're talking massive abuses on a much grander scale.

Funny thing is I've been reading alot about the growing anti-immigration attitude in Europe. People are sick of immigrants coming over and "trying to change the culture" of their chosen country. Even in the USA, many Americans will complain that foreigners congregate in their own little enclaves and "refuse to integrate or learn the local language." Yet, many foreigners in Thailand are even worse than the immigrants in their home countries whom they despise. The irony.

[femi fan]

The Thais don't care about you, (The Farang Community} they only care about how much money or expertise you can bring to the table. All the wishful thinking will change nothing. I speak Thai fluently and over the phone my accent is almost not detectable but the prejudice shows up upon the presentation of my caucasian features. I am use to this and it rolls off my back and I make a joke of it as doing anything else would seem arrogant to a Thai. We are an aberration to them, a curiosity, a lot less so now than in the past but non the less our thinking and problem solving skills are not welcome when it steps on their culture or what they perceive as their culture. They have an inferiority complex when it comes to business and education. The don't understand the Western concept of integrity. The biggest bit of advise however is this, almost all Westerners grew up in countries with a strong Judeo Christian ethic of contrition and forgiveness. that concept is not recognized here and can only lead to a loss of face. A long ago friend once said to me that if you really want to understand This country and the ethos of Thainess, think of a 16 year old back home and what they would say when confronted when they lied. There you have it, an easy lesson that still many of you are fighting. They don't care about you, they only want your money, don't give them any money and act like they do and you can have a happy life here.

So speaks a businessman describing his business context. Don't be confusing your experiences with facts which you apply to the whole popluation, but that seems too late, you have already given us your experience and beliefs wrapped up as facts.

How are you able to speak for so many millions of people? It's just rubbish that 'Thais don't care about you'. Some Thais yes, but how many is impossible to know. However, business all around the world attracts, often, less-than-savoury characters, or perhaps it might be that once in the business world then you get turned into a shark-like creature. The context is accurately described by such phrases as 'it's a dog-eat-dog world' and 'business is business' which is business people's way of saying that morals and ethics don't apply.

So i think you're talking about business people in general, and it cuts across most nationalities i'd say. If you had said instead 'Business people don't care about you, they only care about how much money or expertise you bring to the table', then i think you'd be on safer ground.

Most Thais in the communities, away from the shark-like business world, do care about people who are respectful and peaceful, regardless of where they come from. This is, believe it or not, and big shock and horror, a human trait.

Business, like politics, is its own law and many natural and positive human traits go out the window.

[femi fan]

I figure that the OP is unaware that he has been radicalized.

Very kind of you to inform me of this. I had no idea.

[femi fan]

Well, if one is not an old fat cat with a large bank account, they can always get a real job, live legally, and be a normal person... I am glad they crack down on the extended tourists living off mom and dads handouts and contributing nothing to the country.

If someone is living off of Mom and Dad's handouts then they are contributing something to the country. Something called cash. You would be shocked at how many people - not just Thais - actually appreciate cash and think it makes a great contribution. Reallly, what planet do you hail from where cash is a bad thing?

But in many cases not much cash. The Thai authorities really don't want the guys with a monthly budget of US$600 or so. They want people spending that much every two days or so.

There's a big difference between the authorities and the people in communities of any nation. The authorities here want rich people because said rich people will be using the services owned by the authorities and making them rich themselves.

Meanwhile travellers and less affluent foreigners living here spend whatever cash they have in the communities.

[femi fan]

My thoughts exactly. People have been abusing immigration policies in Thailand for years. Any sort of loosening of the visa/work permit policy would invite even more abuse. And if it's related to the arts and culture, we're talking massive abuses on a much grander scale.

Funny thing is I've been reading alot about the growing anti-immigration attitude in Europe. People are sick of immigrants coming over and "trying to change the culture" of their chosen country. Even in the USA, many Americans will complain that foreigners congregate in their own little enclaves and "refuse to integrate or learn the local language." Yet, many foreigners in Thailand are even worse than the immigrants in their home countries whom they despise. The irony.

More big shock! Immigration policies are 'abused' the world over, it's not a Thai thing at all. Perhaps this reflects on the policies more than the people? Perhaps the policies, written in a bygone age, are no longer relevant to the global world we now live in.

We're in times of big change and upheavel, and it's the result of the aeroplane age because now people can easily travel the world.

As for America, just about every single person there is an immigrant or from immigrant stock.

Not much different with Thailand. It's actually a country with various ethnic peoples from various origins who have come together to be the nation we now know as Thailand.

If people are sick of immigrants, then they had better get used to it. Movement of people - migration - is here to stay, and will only increase as each year goes by.

You come out with the rather tired cliche about immigrants trying to change the culture of the host country. What is culture? And do you really think it stands still?

Immigrants have turned Britain into a much more habitable and interesting country. All those great foods there now, all the wines, the music. London is a truly global city now. Chiang Mai is not much different. The exciting places to live are those that have melting pots as their basis.

Clearly you and I have different views here, but time stands still for no-one. Don't think of immigrants and immigration, think of migrants and migration. It's what's happening, and it's not a divisive thinking.

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

With big blocs like the EC, and coming soon the AEC, we are on the way to freedom of movement that should be the right of all humans, simply on account of being human. In fact, i believe that's enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

Bring it on!

[Ulysses G.]

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

I had these same revelations back in the 1960s when I was a big Timothy Leary fan. Have you been in the mushroom patch?

[JulieM]

"Immigrants have turned Britain into a much more habitable and interesting country."

I wonder how many of your fellow citizens would agree with this statement?

[JulieM]

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

I had these same revelations back in the 1960s when I was a big Timothy Leary fan. Have you been in the mushroom patch?

He's been watching too much Star Trek : )

[DaddyWarbucks]

The Thais don't care about you, (The Farang Community} they only care about how much money or expertise you can bring to the table. All the wishful thinking will change nothing. I speak Thai fluently and over the phone my accent is almost not detectable but the prejudice shows up upon the presentation of my caucasian features. I am use to this and it rolls off my back and I make a joke of it as doing anything else would seem arrogant to a Thai. We are an aberration to them, a curiosity, a lot less so now than in the past but non the less our thinking and problem solving skills are not welcome when it steps on their culture or what they perceive as their culture. They have an inferiority complex when it comes to business and education. The don't understand the Western concept of integrity. The biggest bit of advise however is this, almost all Westerners grew up in countries with a strong Judeo Christian ethic of contrition and forgiveness. that concept is not recognized here and can only lead to a loss of face. A long ago friend once said to me that if you really want to understand This country and the ethos of Thainess, think of a 16 year old back home and what they would say when confronted when they lied. There you have it, an easy lesson that still many of you are fighting. They don't care about you, they only want your money, don't give them any money and act like they do and you can have a happy life here.

So speaks a businessman describing his business context. Don't be confusing your experiences with facts which you apply to the whole popluation, but that seems too late, you have already given us your experience and beliefs wrapped up as facts.

How are you able to speak for so many millions of people? It's just rubbish that 'Thais don't care about you'. Some Thais yes, but how many is impossible to know. However, business all around the world attracts, often, less-than-savoury characters, or perhaps it might be that once in the business world then you get turned into a shark-like creature. The context is accurately described by such phrases as 'it's a dog-eat-dog world' and 'business is business' which is business people's way of saying that morals and ethics don't apply.

So i think you're talking about business people in general, and it cuts across most nationalities i'd say. If you had said instead 'Business people don't care about you, they only care about how much money or expertise you bring to the table', then i think you'd be on safer ground.

Most Thais in the communities, away from the shark-like business world, do care about people who are respectful and peaceful, regardless of where they come from. This is, believe it or not, and big shock and horror, a human trait.

Business, like politics, is its own law and many natural and positive human traits go out the window.

Exceptionally good post.

I had exactly the same feeling about this western businessman.

His post was intelligent and literate, but his attitudes were typical of the vast majority of farangs who now call Chiang Mai home.

[OneZero]

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

I had these same revelations back in the 1960s when I was a big Timothy Leary fan. Have you been in the mushroom patch?

femi fan just keeps digging a deeper hole doesn't he.

[femi fan]

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

I had these same revelations back in the 1960s when I was a big Timothy Leary fan. Have you been in the mushroom patch?

No, but i had mushrooms for breakfast today.

The difference is that the 60s were not the age of mass-travel, just the very beginning of that age. Now we have mass travel, and we have instant virtual travel and communication on the internet. So while you appear to have tripped your way to these thoughts, the reality of it happening some time soon has increased quite some since your revelatory times.

Perhaps the mushrooms gave you some intelligent insight into the future…

[Dante99]

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

I had these same revelations back in the 1960s when I was a big Timothy Leary fan. Have you been in the mushroom patch?

femi fan just keeps digging a deeper hole doesn't he.

Deep enough already. Amen.

[femi fan]

"Immigrants have turned Britain into a much more habitable and interesting country."

I wonder how many of your fellow citizens would agree with this statement?

I think it will largely depend on the age group of those you ask. And perhaps the demographics - are you going to ask city-dwellers, or villagers in the sticks?

But either way, we'll never know julie. Oh well.

[JulieM]

Most Brits think the number of immigrants should be reduced a lot. This doesn't fully answer the question, but it points us in a certain direction:

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-concern

[orang37]

in the mushroom patch?

Ah, Ulysses-so-far-from-Ithaca, I am afraid the origins of this thread lie much more in those bitter berries in the patch of narcissistic self-entitlement: I detect no sweet top-note of epiphany here.

The lack of any sense of humor, the "literalism," the sermonizing, the need to create angels-without-an-angle and demons-with-angles, is a ... clue.

cheers, ~o:37;

[watso63]

I assume the OP is under 50 and doesn't qualify for a retirement visa.

In that case, I know some people under the age of 50 from my country (USA) who live here reasonably secure in their ability to stay here. All it takes is a trip to the USA every 15 months or so to get a triple entry tourist visa. When extensions are no longer possible, a trip to Lao to get a double entry visa. When extensions to that visa are no longer possible, a nice trip back to the USA for a month to get a new triple entry visa.

Is this too hard? Too expensive? Or perhaps non-US foreigners face different difficulties? I'm really just trying to understand why it is so hard to legally stay here for some people.

For crying out loud, what are you drivelling on about? Musicians that just want to jam or have a good time are denied the opportunity by draconian rules.

I'm over 50 on a retirement extension and agree with the OP's thought provoking comments. I too could offer quite a bit to my local community but as things stand it just isn't worth the hassle.

[Berkshire]

My thoughts exactly. People have been abusing immigration policies in Thailand for years. Any sort of loosening of the visa/work permit policy would invite even more abuse. And if it's related to the arts and culture, we're talking massive abuses on a much grander scale.

Funny thing is I've been reading alot about the growing anti-immigration attitude in Europe. People are sick of immigrants coming over and "trying to change the culture" of their chosen country. Even in the USA, many Americans will complain that foreigners congregate in their own little enclaves and "refuse to integrate or learn the local language." Yet, many foreigners in Thailand are even worse than the immigrants in their home countries whom they despise. The irony.

More big shock! Immigration policies are 'abused' the world over, it's not a Thai thing at all. Perhaps this reflects on the policies more than the people? Perhaps the policies, written in a bygone age, are no longer relevant to the global world we now live in.

We're in times of big change and upheavel, and it's the result of the aeroplane age because now people can easily travel the world.

As for America, just about every single person there is an immigrant or from immigrant stock.

Not much different with Thailand. It's actually a country with various ethnic peoples from various origins who have come together to be the nation we now know as Thailand.

If people are sick of immigrants, then they had better get used to it. Movement of people - migration - is here to stay, and will only increase as each year goes by.

You come out with the rather tired cliche about immigrants trying to change the culture of the host country. What is culture? And do you really think it stands still?

Immigrants have turned Britain into a much more habitable and interesting country. All those great foods there now, all the wines, the music. London is a truly global city now. Chiang Mai is not much different. The exciting places to live are those that have melting pots as their basis.

Clearly you and I have different views here, but time stands still for no-one. Don't think of immigrants and immigration, think of migrants and migration. It's what's happening, and it's not a divisive thinking.

I hope i see the day where visas and work permits are no longer needed, where checkpoints and prisons for trying to improve one's life are no longer waiting for those who fail. Bring down walls and barriers everywhere, they belong to our history.

With big blocs like the EC, and coming soon the AEC, we are on the way to freedom of movement that should be the right of all humans, simply on account of being human. In fact, i believe that's enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

Bring it on!

Well now you're just dreaming. Yes, the AEC should open up borders a bit, although it's still not clear what that would mean with regards to immigration. But it won't change policies towards non-ASEAN foreigners.

Your OP covered mostly the arts, as if Eric Clapton was going to show up at some bar/restaurant and jam with the house band. But seriously, what you're mostly talking about is a 3rd rate musician who, after a few drinks, decides he wants to go on stage and be the rock star he couldn't be back home. Is that going to help the development of Thai society somehow? I think not.

[onthedarkside]

Posts wandering off the CM topic - removed

[Dumbastheycome]

"The interest is to advance and improve" etc the lives of Thai people? By whose criteria? Thailand welcomes tourists. Non Thai dwellers of Thailand have no legitimate right to dispute the conditions of . Name me a "desirable" country that allows long term or permanent stay without strict conditions. Thais must jump thro burning hoops just to a tourist visa to visit many western destinations ! Especially females because the assumption is that they want to go for reasons other than tourism. Who created that image of Thailand and Thai women? By comparison the "difficulties of staying in Thailand for non Thais is simply a matter of compliance. I have never come across any situation where social activities are restricted. But activities that even if voluntary displace the opportunity for a Thai then it can be an issue. So if a non Thai assumes that by publicly "demonstrating or performing" activities intended to "realign' or "advance" Thai is seen as "teaching. Teaching is an occupation. Legitimize that by getting a work permit or employing a Thai to do it or............. who asked ya anyway? Butt out !

[JulieM]

I assume the OP is under 50 and doesn't qualify for a retirement visa.

In that case, I know some people under the age of 50 from my country (USA) who live here reasonably secure in their ability to stay here. All it takes is a trip to the USA every 15 months or so to get a triple entry tourist visa. When extensions are no longer possible, a trip to Lao to get a double entry visa. When extensions to that visa are no longer possible, a nice trip back to the USA for a month to get a new triple entry visa.

Is this too hard? Too expensive? Or perhaps non-US foreigners face different difficulties? I'm really just trying to understand why it is so hard to legally stay here for some people.

For crying out loud, what are you drivelling on about? Musicians that just want to jam or have a good time are denied the opportunity by draconian rules.

I'm over 50 on a retirement extension and agree with the OP's thought provoking comments. I too could offer quite a bit to my local community but as things stand it just isn't worth the hassle.

There are foreign musicians jamming every weekend at Think Park in a very high profile location and no one is stopping them. The previous musicians who got in trouble...I didn't follow the story so I don't know what's up with that. I also know foreign musicians who advertise on Facebook where they will be playing in town. Again, no one stops them and they don't get into any trouble.

[quidnunc]

"Immigrants have turned Britain into a much more habitable and interesting country."

I wonder how many of your fellow citizens would agree with this statement?

90 percent of those who eat curry and tikka. In other words, practically everyone, except members of the national front and ukip.

[quidnunc]

Well, if one is not an old fat cat with a large bank account, they can always get a real job, live legally, and be a normal person... I am glad they crack down on the extended tourists living off mom and dads handouts and contributing nothing to the country.

If someone is living off of Mom and Dad's handouts then they are contributing something to the country. Something called cash. You would be shocked at how many people - not just Thais - actually appreciate cash and think it makes a great contribution. Reallly, what planet do you hail from where cash is a bad thing?

But in many cases not much cash. The Thai authorities really don't want the guys with a monthly budget of US$600 or so. They want people spending that much every two days or so.

Yes, those benevolent and wise authorities who only wish the best for the Thai people But what about the thais who run small stores, sell food by the side of the road, or who, a little higher up run small guesthouses? They might disagree with those benevolent and wise authorities.

[JulieM]

Lots of people would agree with you that the guys living here on very limited budgets are somehow helping out the local vendors. Well, those guys (and I know a few) like to think they are helping out. The truth is, the local vendors don't need their business and are a bit weary of these guys.

[Johpa]

Lots of people would agree with you that the guys living here on very limited budgets are somehow helping out the local vendors. Well, those guys (and I know a few) like to think they are helping out. The truth is, the local vendors don't need their business and are a bit weary of these guys.

Phew! Sure glad I don't spend my time in-country living in the city and imagining being part of some "community". There aren't many Farangs where I live and I have never been made to feel unwelcome in any local small shop. In fact I seem to bring something a little different to the table to break up the usual routine although the conversation remains fairly standard focusing on family, the weather, etc. And quite frankly, I have never met a vendor anywhere on the globe who didn't appreciate a sale. Methinks you are erroneously transferring your own values to others. Veblen is alive and well in Thailand.

[JulieM]

Agreed, get outside of town and it is a very different story. But the OP is talking about Chiang Mai.

[naboo]

90% of Chiang Mai is just like "outside of town". There are some odd comments on this thread.

[JulieM]

If Johpa is living in a place with few foreigners, then I am guessing he is well out of Chiang Mai city. Good for him. It's really nice out of town. I wish I could go there more often.

[Tokay]

I don't have any real issues living here other than my complaints about the traffic and smoke belching from the vehicles. Having lived in a few different parts of Thailand, I can say that without a doubt, Chiang Mai has some of the friendliest locals I've seen yet. Better educated too.

Sure, the police might crack down on something silly from time to time, but who cares? Do what you feel you need to do and deal with the consequences if anything happens, like if you get caught in a sweep while playing music somewhere. I mean, come on! Go play and deal with it. Quit being such a <deleted>.

And sure, here and there they will up the price on you if they can, but I can always walk away and buy from someone who doesn't. Spend the time to find all the honest merchants around town and support them, not those who try to take advantage of you. I won't bat an eye about walking away from anything I may want if the seller is trying to be unfair because I'm not Thai. But it doesn't even there, the locals also discriminate against Thais who are not from Chiang Mai. Locals take care of locals. So deal with it, find those who are honest, and go about your day.

Overall, life is super easy in Chiang Mai. Some things could be improved, and in time maybe they will, but this is still a 3rd world country so you have to take the good with the bad. And there isn't much bad up north.

Last... stop reading all of these negative Thai Visa news stories and bitter expat posts. That will bring you down real fast. The more you stay off TV, and off of the news, or all media for that matter, the better your life will be.