Staying in Thailand for online work, what is the situation now?

[tuonsai]

Okay, so I know there's 42.000 posts on this topic already, but if I read them I'm sure I'll get conflicting and inaccurate information. If you just want to flame me for not spending 10 hours researching past posts please just don't waste my time and yours. If one of you experts would be kind enough to to spend a minute to provide a summary, I would greatly appreciate.

The question, what is the situation right now for people wanting to live in the kingdom, doing online work, for extended periods.

1) I and 35 years old dual European/American national currently living in Cambodia

2) I do NOT and will not qualify for any special thai visa, not interested in Ed visa, or spouse, or retirement, investment, or getting employment in Thailand.

3) Thinking about moving to either Chiang Mai, or Bangkok/Pattaya.

What are the current option for extended stays given the above?

How many times a year will I have to do a visa run, and how much would a year cost me?

Will I be assured I can go back each time I do a visa run, or will there be a risk of not being let in the country?

How long will I be able to continue doing this?

Thanks a lot!

[paz]

You would probably start with a triple entry tourist visa in your country, then continuing with double entry in Laos.

Each entry needs an extension cost Bt 1,900 for a total of 90 days stay per entry. To activate the next entry you go to the nearest border.

There is people that have been doing this for many years.

Edited January 30, 2015 by paz

[HeijoshinCool]

Things are changing.

I would suggest you don't get involved in any leases, buy a car, or make any other long-term investments.

[paz]

I don't see any reason for advice above. There is no reason why one should not lease or buy what he needs.

[tuonsai]

Thanks for the replies. If I understand correctly they cracked down only on the people doing back to back visa runs using the 30 or 15 day visa exemption period, but they did not crack down on people getting back to back tourist visas going to embassies ? So you can still do back to back tourist visa runs, as long as you get them at the embassy each time? But ... what if I go to Thailand, rent an apartment start learning Thai, and it turns out they start cracking down on the embassy visa runs too? Let's say I'm settled in Thailand and have an apartment furnished there with all my stuff while doing a visa run, and the Laos embassy decides to reject my visa, because I've had too many tourist visas. If I understand correctly I would be basically totally screwed then and possible not be able to enter Thailand to get my stuff and have to take a huge loss. Or every time I go for a visa run, I would have to take all my stuff with me and prepare to possibly not be able to reenter? That sounds ridiculous. I would hate to invest time and money in a country where I will be possible kicked out of in six to 9 months time and not even know in advance.

[paz]

if you start being paranoid like that perhaps moving internationally is not right for you.

Unless you get blacklisted from Thailand you can always return, one way or another.

There is no reason for another "crackdown", even the latest one was, in hindsight, kind of more of a show than anything,

There were, are and will be hundred of thousands foreigners staying in Thailand, for a reason or another, with a type of visa or another. It is not a big deal really, there are other things one should care about first.

[tuonsai]

if you start being paranoid like that perhaps moving internationally is not right for you.

Unless you get blacklisted from Thailand you can always return, one way or another.

There is no reason for another "crackdown", even the latest one was, in hindsight, kind of more of a show than anything,

There were, are and will be hundred of thousands foreigners staying in Thailand, for a reason or another, with a type of visa or another. It is not a big deal really, there are other things one should care about first.

Thanks, I understand your point. I've already moved to Cambodia from Europe. I'm not just looking for a place to work for a while. My decision is whether to invest in Thailand for a lifetime, by learning their language etc. Whether it's worth it. I have other alternatives as well, and this visa issue is a major headache with Thailand. The more I learn about Thailand the more ambivalent it makes me. The land of smiles that are perhaps fake smiles ? That seems to be the vibe these days.

[Soutpeel]

I don't see any reason for advice above. There is no reason why one should not lease or buy what he needs.

Like you, the poster is offering an opinion and the op can take or the leave the opinion, its called an informed decision, where in one takes opinions from multiple sources. and forms their own conclusion.

[Swiss1960]

if you start being paranoid like that perhaps moving internationally is not right for you.

Unless you get blacklisted from Thailand you can always return, one way or another.

There is no reason for another "crackdown", even the latest one was, in hindsight, kind of more of a show than anything,

There were, are and will be hundred of thousands foreigners staying in Thailand, for a reason or another, with a type of visa or another. It is not a big deal really, there are other things one should care about first.

Thanks, I understand your point. I've already moved to Cambodia from Europe. I'm not just looking for a place to work for a while. My decision is whether to invest in Thailand for a lifetime, by learning their language etc. Whether it's worth it. I have other alternatives as well, and this visa issue is a major headache with Thailand. The more I learn about Thailand the more ambivalent it makes me. The land of smiles that are perhaps fake smiles ? That seems to be the vibe these days.

Well, it seems to be that you pretty much answered your own questions, since you write "I do NOT and will not qualify for any special thai visa, not interested in Ed visa, or spouse, or retirement, investment, or getting employment in Thailand."

From that, it is clear that the Tourist Visa (60d+30d extensino) and the renewal every 90 days (with travel to an embassy outside Thailand) is your only option. And with that option, you must be aware that it is in the embassy's discretion to give you the visa, to ask for further documentation like proof of income from abroad - or they might decide at their discretion that you do not qualify as tourist and NOT give you the tourist Visa.

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

[ubonjoe]

If you have the money a Thai Elite 5 year PE visa that give unlimited one year entries could be an option. Just pay 500k baht for the 5 year option.

[tuonsai]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

[Swiss1960]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

First, you seem not to know Thailand very well or then only small parts that might have been of interest for you in the past... otherwise you would not call Thailand what you call it...

Second, each country sets rules and defines requirements for foreigners wanting to work in it's country. Some countries have more relaxed views, others are more protective for their own people and Thailand definitely belongs to the second category. But that is well known for long time and it is also known that Thailand sees online working as what it is - working... no matter whether you only work for companies outside Thailand and do not take away jobs from the Thai people.

These rules are very unlikely to change in the near future. The more strain there is on the economy, the more protective countries tend to get for the sake of their own people (look at Switzerland..). Thus, your options for legally doing online working in Thailand are nill, as I understand that creating a company and hiring Thai staff who would have nothing to do is not an options.

[LoveThaiGirls]

If you have the money a Thai Elite 5 year PE visa that give unlimited one year entries could be an option. Just pay 500k baht for the 5 year option.

I'll be in a similar situation soon, and whilst 500k up-front can be hard to get, the effective cost of 100k/year for peace and mind is looking more and more appealing.

If I recall the "PE" is actually better than it used to be, in that it now grants you a full one year extension of stay - i.e. no trips to immigration every 3 months? Seriously sounds more appealing every time I think about it.

[rwdrwdrwd]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

First, you seem not to know Thailand very well or then only small parts that might have been of interest for you in the past... otherwise you would not call Thailand what you call it...

Second, each country sets rules and defines requirements for foreigners wanting to work in it's country. Some countries have more relaxed views, others are more protective for their own people and Thailand definitely belongs to the second category. But that is well known for long time and it is also known that Thailand sees online working as what it is - working... no matter whether you only work for companies outside Thailand and do not take away jobs from the Thai people.

These rules are very unlikely to change in the near future. The more strain there is on the economy, the more protective countries tend to get for the sake of their own people (look at Switzerland..). Thus, your options for legally doing online working in Thailand are nill, as I understand that creating a company and hiring Thai staff who would have nothing to do is not an options.

Can you provide one single example of anybody ever gettng into trouble for that? Not the teachers that were arrested in Chiang Mai recently - they were working for a company in Thailand and being paid in Thailand.

I ask because despite searching extensively, I have never found such a case, neither in Thailand nor anywhere else in the world, of somebody being prosecuted due to not having a Work Permit for truly working remotely for clients outside of the country they reside and being paid outside of the country they reside.

If you believe it's 'well known for a long time' in thailand, then I expect you must have some examples of such prosecutions to support the statement?

Edited January 31, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[stevenl]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

First, you seem not to know Thailand very well or then only small parts that might have been of interest for you in the past... otherwise you would not call Thailand what you call it...

Second, each country sets rules and defines requirements for foreigners wanting to work in it's country. Some countries have more relaxed views, others are more protective for their own people and Thailand definitely belongs to the second category. But that is well known for long time and it is also known that Thailand sees online working as what it is - working... no matter whether you only work for companies outside Thailand and do not take away jobs from the Thai people.

These rules are very unlikely to change in the near future. The more strain there is on the economy, the more protective countries tend to get for the sake of their own people (look at Switzerland..). Thus, your options for legally doing online working in Thailand are nill, as I understand that creating a company and hiring Thai staff who would have nothing to do is not an options.

Can you provide one single example of anybody ever gettng into trouble for that? Not the teachers that were arrested in Chiang Mai recently - they were working for a company in Thailand and being paid in Thailand.

I ask because despite searching extensively, I have never found such a case, neither in Thailand nor anywhere else in the world, of somebody being prosecuted due to not having a Work Permit for truly working remotely for clients outside of the country they reside and being paid outside of the country they reside.

If you believe it's 'well known for a long time' in thailand, then I expect you must have some examples of such prosecutions to support the statement?

The rules are as they are.

And yes, I don't know of people having problems/being arrested for violating those rules, but those rules are there.

Up to the OP to make the decision how to act.

[ColdSingha]

The rules are as they are.

And yes, I don't know of people having problems/being arrested for violating those rules, but those rules are there.

which rules? (i hope not the one that defines all action including breathing as working.. )

i was under the impression this is a grey area, did something change?

Edited January 31, 2015 by ColdSingha

[stevenl]

The rules are as they are.

And yes, I don't know of people having problems/being arrested for violating those rules, but those rules are there.

which rules? (i hope not the one that defines all action including breathing as working.. )

i was under the impression this is a grey area, did something change?

Not grey at all, really black.white but not enforced.

Up to the OP to make a decision to base a stay here in Thailand on that yes or no.

[ColdSingha]

The rules are as they are.

And yes, I don't know of people having problems/being arrested for violating those rules, but those rules are there.

which rules? (i hope not the one that defines all action including breathing as working.. )

i was under the impression this is a grey area, did something change?

Not grey at all, really black.white but not enforced.

Up to the OP to make a decision to base a stay here in Thailand on that yes or no.

so same rule then

[rwdrwdrwd]

The rules are black and white only if you accept that the definition of work is clear.

http://wp.doe.go.th/wp/images/law/4/aliens_act.pdf

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

The definition of work, does not define work beyond being something that involves 'exterting energy', or 'using knowledge' regardless of whether that exertion or use is for financial reward. Like breathing, walking, reading, cycling, driving.

So either breathing requires a work permit, or the law is intrinsically unclear and is indeed a grey area for which guidance can only be obtained via precedent (of which there are none, in the case of people working online for non Thai entities and being paid outside of the country).

OP - short answer is there is no special permit, there is no special permission either, but there is also no prior example of anybody ever getting prosecuted for working online where clients and payment are non Thai. The only option that is going to guarantee long term stay is either setting up a Thai co with a Work Permit, getting married, retiring, or buying a Thai Elite Visa. In the event I was in your position, and was neither married nor of retirement age, and planned to stay long term, I'd go for the latter.

A tourist visa is not going to cut the mustard beyond a year imo. But whilst it does I believe each visa will last you sixty days, extandable for a further 30, after which you must leave the country. You can return on another, but people are getting refused entry for doing this perpetually.

An Elite Visa requires you to report to immigration every 90 days, but not to leave the country. A Non Immigrant O (Marriage or Retirement) or Non Immigrant B (if you earn enough, and have a Work Permit), will allow you to apply for a year long extension, but in all these cases you must report to Immigration every ninety days (though not actually do a border run) and if you do not apply for an extension, but have a multiple entry visa, you have to leave the country every ninety days instead.

Edited January 31, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Colabamumbai]

I do not mean to be rude, but you are better off where you are. I have visited Thailand since 1973 and have lived here more than 5 consecutive years now, and Cambodia seems like a better option.

[realthaideal]

Best to get a business visa if you can, or just work solo on the down-low as per some recent events in the realm of Thailand online living http://www.chiangmaibuddy.com/can-a-digital-nomad-work-in-chiang-mai/ - as you can see, there is a ton of info on the topic, and thankfully here it's spelled out clearly without simple hearsay.

[paz]

A tourist visa is not going to cut the mustard beyond a year imo. But whilst it does I believe each visa will last you sixty days, extandable for a further 30, after which you must leave the country. You can return on another, but people are getting refused entry for doing this perpetually.

No. Nobody with a valid visa is refused entry.

[IMA_FARANG]

"On-line work" is not now or never has been legal in Thailand without a Work Permit.

I doubt that will ever change.

To get a work permit you require a Thai company to submit the paperwork for you to get that work permit.

Usually that means you must be working for that Thai company.

Now that's the LEGAL way to work on-line in Thailand.

In practice, many people are getting away with it, and the Thai goverenment is allowing it because of the difficulty of finding and the expense of prosecuting these illigal workers.

But, each time you do any activity clasified as "work" in Thailand ....... whether you profit from it or not ..... that activity is illegal without a work permit.

You may get away with it, but then you may not.

As the Thai bargirls say. "Up to You".

[PattayaPhom]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

Normal life would be working...visa available, retired....visa available, visit family...visa available, learn language...visa available, holiday...visa available, start a business...visa available.....probably one of the easiest countries for obtaining a visa providing you are legit.

[jpinx]

Comparing the Elite PE using mailed in 90-day reports, with the cost of getting a tourist visa, the extension, the cost of travel, hotel, etc every time a new visa is needed. This is a calculation that needs doing carefully. It would appear that the Elite is a bargain purely on costs -- plus the total peace of mind. I suggest the OP does some more detailed homework

[sead]

Elite visa

[Lungvin]

I would recommend taking a look of what they have to offer:

http://iglu.in.th/

As far as i know, they obtain investment visa and can fix you with work permits, visas, place to work etc.. for a cut of your income.

[paz]

Comparing the Elite PE using mailed in 90-day reports, with the cost of getting a tourist visa, the extension, the cost of travel, hotel, etc every time a new visa is needed. This is a calculation that needs doing carefully. It would appear that the Elite is a bargain purely on costs -- plus the total peace of mind.

All type of yearly extension can do mailed-in reports, not just TE visa.

The cost of staying on double entry tourist visa is perhaps 7,000 - 17,000 Bt an year, depending on location. Compare to the "bargain" of 100,000 an year, paid in full for 5 years, not refundable.

[Neeranam]

When I do my visa extensions I use the free wifi a immigration to do some online work. Pretty bloody obvious - don't tell anyone.

There are loads of agencies giving one year visas from about 20k baht..

[paz]

There are loads of agencies giving one year visas from about 20k baht..

These are aimed to people older than 50 that don't meet financial requirements. Like the OP, not everyone in the world is 50 or older.