Some Questions Concerning Thai Culture.

[thaibebop]

I am involved on debate with others. They have been talking about Thailand and I am trying to figure out what they have said that is not true and what is. I have limited sources (books) in my house. So, I am coming here to see what I can learn.

First, How close is the relationship between Lao and Issan? One person says that Issan are Lao just given a different name so they don't have to be Lao. Anyone know how true this is?

Next, these guys keep saying that if a Thai person has white(lite) skin they must be Chinese or part Chinese. I know that there is a cultrual and genetic effects of the Chinese in Thailand, but I still think that a lite skinned person can still be 100% Thai. Am I wrong to think this?

Also, they say that the Chinese or Thai/Chinese living in Thailand (for a long time that is) take on longer Thai names. So, the longer the Thai name the more likely they are of Chinese orgin. I think they were speaking of the surname mostly. This is not right, correct? Also, that these same people would have a secret Chinese name. I know my wife who is Thai/Chinese does not have one, but maybe others do?

Thanks for the help, guys.

Thaibebop

[mittheimp]

First, How close is the relationship between Lao and Issan? One person says that Issan are Lao just given a different name so they don't have to be Lao. Anyone know how true this is?

Dont really understand the question! Issan is in Thailand, Laos is Laos! A lot of cultural similarities (language, cuisine etc) due to fluid migration between the regions!

[Mobi]

I am involved on debate with others. They have been talking about Thailand and I am trying to figure out what they have said that is not true and what is. I have limited sources (books) in my house. So, I am coming here to see what I can learn.

First, How close is the relationship between Lao and Issan? One person says that Issan are Lao just given a different name so they don't have to be Lao. Anyone know how true this is?

Next, these guys keep saying that if a Thai person has white(lite) skin they must be Chinese or part Chinese. I know that there is a cultrual and genetic effects of the Chinese in Thailand, but I still think that a lite skinned person can still be 100% Thai. Am I wrong to think this?

Also, they say that the Chinese or Thai/Chinese living in Thailand (for a long time that is) take on longer Thai names. So, the longer the Thai name the more likely they are of Chinese orgin. I think they were speaking of the surname mostly. This is not right, correct? Also, that these same people would have a secret Chinese name. I know my wife who is Thai/Chinese does not have one, but maybe others do?

Thanks for the help, guys.

Thaibebop

My understanding from many years ago is that all Thais have unique or "family" surnames. They cannot be duplicated.Therefor, those coming later had to have longer names. The Chinese/Thais with the really long surnames are relatively recent settlers into Thailand. My ex wife, who's grandfather was a Chinese immigrant, had a surname so long it fulled two lines of her passport. Ditto a Chinese family I used to work for who were also second generation Thai.

I think I understand what you mean re Issan/Lao. I guess Issan is part of Thailand, and most people living there are ethnic Lao - although quite a few are also ethnic Kymer.

White skin- dark skin? There are many beautiful Issan girls with all shades of skin colour - from silky white to very dark. I've no idea if this is due to cross marriages with Chinese sometime in the past - but somehow I doubt it.

Anyone?

[Thaddeus]

The part about the longer the surname the more Chinese they are is essentially correct, my first Thai wife (only using the word Thai to indicate that she was Thai) only had two syllables, my current wife had three in her maiden name indicating that her family moved to Thailand a little later. As an aside, have you ever noticed that a certain political leader always has his name pronounced just using the first three syllables of his name despite the fact it has four, it makes him sound more Thai and I wouldn't be surprised if that is done on his instruction.

With regards to the Laos point, my wife thought she spoke Laos, she only found out that she didn't when we went to Savannakhet, it took her quite a few minutes to interface with the Laos locals in a language she thought she was fluent in. (incidentally, she has said that she never wants to go to Laos again, "it's a dirty, smelly place" .... her words, not mine)

Skin colour.... I'm not a geneticist so I wouldn't know how the gene weighting has an effect, I only know that if you stay outside in the day, you tend to go darker

[Sing_Sling]

It was explained to us many decades ago that the longer a surname, theoretically the more respected one was . . . can't really be Chinese as they have monosyllabic names.

Skin colour - if one looks at where most Thai Chinese come from it is highly unlikely that they would be much lighter than Thais - northern Chinese are almost a porcelain-white . . .

Aded to this, which Chinese family is still pure Chinese?

[GuestHouse]

The issue here is Thai history, not Thai culture. I suggest you get a copy of Wyatt 'Thaiiland - A Short History' ISBN 974-88662-6-2, it will answer your questions regarding the relationship between Isaan and Loas, and the imigration of the chinse.

You don't say who you are having this discussion with. My general advice would be go read up before quoting, certainly read Wyatt if you want to know about Thai History.

If the discussion is with Thais be aware of the fact that Thais are singularly misinformed of their own history and may take offense at being told something different to that which they believe.

But, whoever you are arguing with, you might point out that the people of the north, and in particular Chiang Mai Chiang Rai, are definately Thai, but famed throughout Thailand for their white skin.

[chownah]

I think I remember an article or news feature from a few years ago that mentined that a new list of Thai names had been made up....the meaning of this was (I think) that people who want to take Thai names (I don't know who or why they do this) choose from a list that is either prepared by the gov't or by some monks or perhaps the two work together on this......so......if the list of new names only has really long names then any of the new people will get really long names etc.

As for skin color.....the farther north a person's ancestsors come from the lighter will be their skin generally speaking, and the farther south etc....actually it's how close to the equator, not how far north or south. Since China is north of Thailand....there will probably be a larger percentage of lighter skinned people than in Thailand. I think that this is about as good an explanation as can be had but I could be wrong. As to "Chinese" people...or "Thai" people....well some "Chinese" people are Thai so are they "Thai" people too? This sort of thing (nationality) just sort of confuses the issue....at least for me. As to lighter skinned Thais being part chinese....if I produced an offspring with a Thai woman it would probably have ligher skin too and I am from northern european stock...if I can trust what my family has told me.

I lived in Isaan (Nong Khai) for a few months while teaching and I got the strong impression (from discussing Isaan culture vis a vis Thai culture and Lao culture) that they 100% consider themselves to be Thai. They also know that their culture derives from Lao culture and that it is more like Lao culture than Bangkok culture....but they absolutely maintained that they are Thai citizens and in my judgement have no ideas whatever that would make them think that they are Lao people....they seemed to clearly identify as being of the Isaan culture which they see as one of the cultures of Thaland and they are proud of the many contributions there culture has made to the culture of Thailand as a whole.............

Edited August 21, 2006 by chownah

[dog412]

tai and thai are not necessarily the same.

[TRIPxCORE]

she has said that she never wants to go to Laos again, "it's a dirty, smelly place" .... her words, not mine

Are you serious???

As for the Issan/Lao question. The culture as far as language, food and customs around North-West Thailand (Issan) stems from Laos. The language is almost identical as my wife spoke to everyone just fine when we went to Vientiane. The people of Issan and the people of Laos are in very close proximity to each other. Their proximity to each other has always been the same, very very close. The only thing that changed around their area over the years is the specific location of the border which is strictly a political designation. The people of Issan are probably mostly Lao people. Before recorded history, maybe that area of Thailand was actually Laos. If you look back at political maps of Thailand throughout history, you will always see the borders of these countries, along with Burma and Cambodia, have been moved around. This is due to wars or battles fought for land. For a long time now, the border has been what you now see today. All people living nowadays in that region have always known the border to be what it currently is. Therefore, Issan people were born in what is politically designated as Thailand. So naturally they will consider themselves Thai. Just because some government says the border is here doesnt mean the people living on either side change their culture. Are Issan people really Laotian? Probably.

Edited August 21, 2006 by TRIPxCORE

[lannarebirth]

Issan people are ethnic Lao. It formerly belonged to the Kingdom of Vientiane which used to have Korat as it's border. The territory was seized by Rama IV or V after one of the most ill advised army campaigns ever by the King of Vientiane. According to wich Thai you talk to it was because the Siamese Kings stiffed the Vientiane king by not paying for all the slaves used from Vientiane that dug the canals in Bangkok.

White skin usually means one has antecedents from northern area. That's usually Chinese, but perhaps from hundreds or thousands of years ago.

[bina]

lao = issaan thai dialects = mutually intelligable languages/dialects

ethnic = issaan = majority were lao but borders moved as triipxcore says, so they became thai

many groups such as those in ban chiang etc are lao ethnic with their own dialect/culture etc... not central thai

we have tons of threads on this somwhere in thai visa (in language forum if i remember since we argued about this stuff a lot.)

thai are fairly xenophobic and ethnocentric and being 'thai' is super important to them so as someone else pointed out, they arent always aware of politically correct definitions of culture/race/ethnicity etc as guesthouse pointed out

u can easily start an arugment with korat people as to if they are issaan or thai (geographicaly theya re issaan, lang. they are korat thai, etc- my boyfriend has this hangup claiming he is 100% central thai but when speaking with father will slip into issaan korat thai)

when it will be politically correct to be issaan lao from three generations ago originating in ventiane, then everyone will suddenly be issaan lao etc etc...

[kat]

The issue here is Thai history, not Thai culture. I suggest you get a copy of Wyatt 'Thaiiland - A Short History' ISBN 974-88662-6-2, it will answer your questions regarding the relationship between Isaan and Loas, and the imigration of the chinse.

You don't say who you are having this discussion with. My general advice would be go read up before quoting, certainly read Wyatt if you want to know about Thai History.

If the discussion is with Thais be aware of the fact that Thais are singularly misinformed of their own history and may take offense at being told something different to that which they believe.

But, whoever you are arguing with, you might point out that the people of the north, and in particular Chiang Mai Chiang Rai, are definately Thai, but famed throughout Thailand for their white skin.

ditto. So good I don't need to say it twice. I will add, that if you read history, you will find that parts of Issan were literally *re-populated with people from Laos when Thais first acquired that territory.

*edit

Edited August 21, 2006 by kat

[Heng]

Next, these guys keep saying that if a Thai person has white(lite) skin they must be Chinese or part Chinese. I know that there is a cultrual and genetic effects of the Chinese in Thailand, but I still think that a lite skinned person can still be 100% Thai. Am I wrong to think this?

No, there are plenty of "pure" Thais who have light skin.

Also, they say that the Chinese or Thai/Chinese living in Thailand (for a long time that is) take on longer Thai names. So, the longer the Thai name the more likely they are of Chinese orgin. I think they were speaking of the surname mostly. This is not right, correct? Also, that these same people would have a secret Chinese name. I know my wife who is Thai/Chinese does not have one, but maybe others do?

Sometimes true, regarding the length of Chinese name... although there are Indian, Singaporean, Vietnamese, etc. Thais with long last names as well. As mentioned by another poster, it just often depends on when your family got here. Also, there are plenty of old Thai Chinese families that never changed their last names. I see id cards periodically that have the Chinese family name phonetically printed on it (first name - sae Lim, first name - sae Ku, etc.). As for Chinese names... these aren't really "secret." As they are still often documented in family records and publicly displayed/printed for weddings, funerals, etc.

[the swagman]

I you talk to people in Laos, they will generally tell you that Issan people are in fact Lao. If you read your history, you will find that the border that delineates Loas and Thailand was made by the French not that long ago. Issan people are Laos people who got caught in the border when it was fixed.

There is not a lot of love lost between the Thais and the Laos people.

The Chinese surname is what I was also tole decades ago and through observation it stands up quite well. The governmenbt officials working at the time when all Thais had to have a surname became quite inventive and made up these remarkably long surnames to distinguish them from the 'real' Thais.

Skin, don't know. A bit of colour is not a bad thing.

[h90]

my wife from the south is calling all Isaan people lao, as well everything bad/dirty/fake will be called lao.

But I guess the southies don´t like the isaan people...

I am involved on debate with others. They have been talking about Thailand and I am trying to figure out what they have said that is not true and what is. I have limited sources (books) in my house. So, I am coming here to see what I can learn.

First, How close is the relationship between Lao and Issan? One person says that Issan are Lao just given a different name so they don't have to be Lao. Anyone know how true this is?

Next, these guys keep saying that if a Thai person has white(lite) skin they must be Chinese or part Chinese. I know that there is a cultrual and genetic effects of the Chinese in Thailand, but I still think that a lite skinned person can still be 100% Thai. Am I wrong to think this?

Also, they say that the Chinese or Thai/Chinese living in Thailand (for a long time that is) take on longer Thai names. So, the longer the Thai name the more likely they are of Chinese orgin. I think they were speaking of the surname mostly. This is not right, correct? Also, that these same people would have a secret Chinese name. I know my wife who is Thai/Chinese does not have one, but maybe others do?

Thanks for the help, guys.

Thaibebop

[chippie]

My girlfriend is very dark, her 2 sisters are quite light, her brother dark and her son light.

I have an English friend whose father is 'black' but he is white.

You can't group all people together and say you are black therefore you are Thai or from near the equator.

[terry57]

My girlfriend is very dark, her 2 sisters are quite light, her brother dark and her son light.

I have an English friend whose father is 'black' but he is white.

You can't group all people together and say you are black therefore you are Thai or from near the equator.

cricky's mate,

i would say that i have meet some thai people who had come from the equator.

actually i had a thai business partner that was that frosty the mafia done a job on him, but thats another story from my book.

but in general i love thai.

hope this helps you.

cheers mate

[mittheimp]

Just to go off at a complete tangent. When i taught English in central Thailand to a class of under 10's, every time the country Laos was mentioned the class would fall about in Hysterics, as if the funniest joke ever had been said! A previous poster said that there wasn't a lot of love lost between Thailand and Laos - I think the relationship is more like a rather condescending big brother!

[the swagman]

I think the relationship is more like a rather condescending big brother!

And the Laos' don't like it.

[mittheimp]

I think the relationship is more like a rather condescending big brother!

And the Laos' don't like it.

yes i dont suppose they do!

[ya5702]

Also, they say that the Chinese or Thai/Chinese living in Thailand (for a long time that is) take on longer Thai names. So, the longer the Thai name the more likely they are of Chinese orgin. I think they were speaking of the surname mostly. This is not right, correct? Also, that these same people would have a secret Chinese name. I know my wife who is Thai/Chinese does not have one, but maybe others do?

Thanks for the help, guys.

Thaibebop

If the person is ethnically Chinese, his Chinese family name is usually included in his Thai family name. For example, if his Thai family name is Chongpison, then his Chinese family name is Chong (or if spelled phonetically, Zhang). In the case of the PM, his Chinese family name is probably Shin (or probably spelled phonetically as Jin - which means Gold).

This "secret" method of "concealing" the Chinese family name is also practised in Indonesia and Japan. The Chinese rarely want to lose their ancestry.

[Heng]

If the person is ethnically Chinese, his Chinese family name is usually included in his Thai family name. For example, if his Thai family name is Chongpison, then his Chinese family name is Chong (or if spelled phonetically, Zhang). In the case of the PM, his Chinese family name is probably Shin (or probably spelled phonetically as Jin - which means Gold).

This "secret" method of "concealing" the Chinese family name is also practised in Indonesia and Japan. The Chinese rarely want to lose their ancestry.

Substitute 'sometimes' for usually and you are correct. Some just used their Chinese name (it's a myth or at least a common misunderstanding that everyone HAD to take Thai last names... although sure, the wording of gov't officials in some areas way back when may have been less than friendly)... sae (which is Teochiu Chinese for last name) + last name. For instance, my Chinese last name is Kim or Jin (Teochiu or Mandarin) incidentally the same as your example. There are several branches of our family who use 'sae Kim' as their last name on their id cards and house registrations, we don't. Some used a part of their Chinese last name and combined it with Thai words. We chose not to and opted for using an entirely new Thai last name made up on the spot (this was sometimes made up on the spot by the gov't official OR the family patriarch/matriarch at that time). In our case my grandfather made this and a few substitute options up before going out to get it taken care of, as noted in his notes/diary before going out to the district office in Klong Toey in 1932.

By the way, the PM's family name is Khu/Chiu (Teochiu/Mandarin) which doesn't sound anything like Shin/Chin in any dialect, not Kim/Jin.

[thaibebop]

The issue here is Thai history, not Thai culture. I suggest you get a copy of Wyatt 'Thaiiland - A Short History' ISBN 974-88662-6-2, it will answer your questions regarding the relationship between Isaan and Loas, and the imigration of the chinse.

You don't say who you are having this discussion with. My general advice would be go read up before quoting, certainly read Wyatt if you want to know about Thai History. Yes, I have the book. I read over four years ago though. This discussion has made me think I should read it again.

If the discussion is with Thais be aware of the fact that Thais are singularly misinformed of their own history and may take offense at being told something different to that which they believe. No, mostly people of Chinese orgins.

But, whoever you are arguing with, you might point out that the people of the north, and in particular Chiang Mai Chiang Rai, are definately Thai, but famed throughout Thailand for their white skin.

Thanks, I knew that there where Thais who had no connection to Chinese and were very pale. I didn't know there was a geographical connection though.

[OZONE]

Next, these guys keep saying that if a Thai person has white(lite) skin they must be Chinese or part Chinese. I know that there is a cultrual and genetic effects of the Chinese in Thailand, but I still think that a lite skinned person can still be 100% Thai. Am I wrong to think this?

Thaibebop

I might be wrong here but throough my observation, you can tell a Thai Thai from a chinese Thai by looking at his/her facial structures. Thai thai tend to look more like like laotian/burmese higher cheek bone and ofcourse darker, and thai-chinese tends to have the rounder face, smaller eyes and whiter.

Thats what i've noticed anyway.

[thaibebop]

I would like to thank everybody for taking the time to post, it has been very helpful and informative. Thanks you all.

Thaibebop

[Thaddeus]

By the way, the PM's family name is Khu/Chiu (Teochiu/Mandarin) which doesn't sound anything like Shin/Chin in any dialect, not Kim/Jin.

Duh..... so why does he do that to his own name then?

Double standards....... it's always double standards out here

[Thaddeus]

she has said that she never wants to go to Laos again, "it's a dirty, smelly place" .... her words, not mine

Are you serious???

As for the Issan/Lao question. The culture as far as language, food and customs around North-West Thailand (Issan) stems from Laos. The language is almost identical as my wife spoke to everyone just fine when we went to Vientiane. The people of Issan and the people of Laos are in very close proximity to each other. Their proximity to each other has always been the same, very very close. The only thing that changed around their area over the years is the specific location of the border which is strictly a political designation. The people of Issan are probably mostly Lao people. Before recorded history, maybe that area of Thailand was actually Laos. If you look back at political maps of Thailand throughout history, you will always see the borders of these countries, along with Burma and Cambodia, have been moved around. This is due to wars or battles fought for land. For a long time now, the border has been what you now see today. All people living nowadays in that region have always known the border to be what it currently is. Therefore, Issan people were born in what is politically designated as Thailand. So naturally they will consider themselves Thai. Just because some government says the border is here doesnt mean the people living on either side change their culture. Are Issan people really Laotian? Probably.

Are you serious???

Yes. really serious..... the entire event had quite a dramatic effect on my in-laws and their Laosness.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Thaddeus

[Thaddeus]

With regards to the 'Attractions'.... one of the major places to be visited close to Buriram is Kao Phanom Rung..... it's an old Khmer temple .... i.e. Hindu.

The key word in that sentence was 'Khmer' ...... work that one out

[swissie]

The Isaan is quite a big place. If you will, it can be divided into "Northern" Isaan" very much linked up with "Lao-People". The "Southern Isaan" is linked to the "tribe" called KHMER, Today = Cambodians!

And yes it's true, if a "Thai" implies, that you are behaving like a true "Lao", that would translate into: "You are a dummy".

Cheers.

[meadish_sweetball]

Just one small correction: Isaan is the Northeast of Thailand, not the Northwest.

The ethnic groups, both the lowland people and the highland dwellers (hill tribes) in Northwestern Laos and the Northern part of the Mekong river have a fair few things in common with the Northwest of Thailand though.

If you read the history of South East Asia you will notice that there are few, if any 'pure' ethnic groups. When the Tai peoples migrated down from present day Southern China, they met and intermingled with Mon and Khmer groups. The Khmer ruling class had connections with the island kingdom of Srivijaya in present day Indonesia... etc, etc.

The lighter skin of some Thais and Laotians is definitely not only a result of intermarriage with the Chinese. As was said above, a Thai person who stays out of the sun naturally does not get very dark, and some Thais, especially in the North, naturally have a lighter complexion without looking Chinese. There are also other ethnic groups up there who are rather light-skinned.