UK anti-Semitic incidents hit record in 2014, says charity

[Jingthing]

For those seeking a literary perspective on the situation of Jews in England in this era, dealing of course with the Palestinian issue as seen in England as well, I would recommend The Finkler Question (Booker Prize winner).

It's one of the best novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of novels. Being a comic novel, it's also very funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Finkler_Question

The situation for British Jews is very different than the situation for American Jews and both are wildly different than the situation for Israeli Jews.

While we're on the subject of funny stuff / British Jews, be sure to catch the t.v. show FRIDAY NIGHT DINNER if you can. Bloody hilarious.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

For those seeking a literary perspective on the situation of Jews in England in this era, dealing of course with the Palestinian issue as seen in England as well, I would recommend The Finkler Question (Booker Prize winner).

It's one of the best novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of novels. Being a comic novel, it's also very funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Finkler_Question

The situation for British Jews is very different than the situation for American Jews and both are wildly different than the situation for Israeli Jews.

We can all use the internet as a resource for comment.

So now tell us about your experiences in the UK?

How many times have you been there and where have you been?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Chicog]

For those seeking a literary perspective on the situation of Jews in England in this era, dealing of course with the Palestinian issue as seen in England as well, I would recommend The Finkler Question (Booker Prize winner).

It's one of the best novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of novels. Being a comic novel, it's also very funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Finkler_Question

The situation for British Jews is very different than the situation for American Jews and both are wildly different than the situation for Israeli Jews.

We can all use the internet as a resource for comment.

So now tell us about your experiences in the UK?

How many times have you been there and where have you been?

He's never been to a North London Derby, I'll bet you that.

[Jay Sata]

Sadly this thread has has degenerated in to the usual arguments from a couple of posters that are not related to the reality.

Golders Green in London is probably the biggest centre of Jewish population in the UK.

Sadly some of the loudest voices on here have no knowledge of the UK or London and are spouting rubbish.

It is a nice middle class suburb where a cross section of people from various backgrounds live in harmony.

My advice to those who have never lived in the area or the UK is waste your time elsewhere and don't try to paint a picture from your ignorance.

And nobody was even contradicting this.

So please tell me how well you know the UK and places such as Golders Green Morch?

Perhaps you can point out some dangerous areas for me?

[Morch]

I don't know that it makes one an antisemitic, I'm pretty sure it raises the odds one is.

As for the I-didn't-really-mean-it, sounds like an easy way out.

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion, it is not an entirely unreasonable one. What would be unreasonable would be to jump to a definite conclusion on a person being an antisemite (jew hater), just because he speaks of holocausts or Hitler when refering to Israel.

"Possible antisemite" would be more appropriate in future, as from your own admission, you're basing it on the odds, not the facts.

I did not "admit" to anything.

When I make my mind up on someone's opinions it is usually after having prolonged exposure to what he expresses on relevant topics. Usually try not to jump to conclusions, unless its too obvious to interpret otherwise. What I meant was simply, that relying on such comparisons is often indicative of antisemitic bias. It may not always be the case, it may be less pronounced or less obvious, but its there. If someone wishes to simply criticize Israel, there is no specific need to allude to the Nazis - many more fitting examples for comparison. The extra bonus of resorting to the Nazi comparison is aimed at robbing Jews of their right to say anything when antisemitism raises its head.

You said that you're sure it raises the odds.

But now you're talking about you and this forum. I was talking generally and to the OP.

So.....Hitler and holocaust references have odds that they are actual antisemitic, and thus odds that they are not.

What I contend is that the report used in the OP exaggerates the problem and that some so-called antisemitic verbal or written attacks are not antisemitic at all. Odds are.

Looking at our closest actual reference to real people in the UK on this thread, ie the Jews in the audience of Question Time video posted, we can see a group of people intent on seeing any criticism of Israel or Zionists as antisemitism.

I think the report in the OP exaggerates the problem.

I was making a general point and later exemplified with how I personally make such judgements. Did not actually have TVF on my mind when posting the above, but another online venue, where a similar debate is in progress. Granted, it may apply to TVF as well.

The report discussed in the OP does not count each and every verbal/internet instance where the Hitler or the Holocaust were mentioned as being an antisemitic event. It takes consideration of the context and target of these statements. I don't know that it exaggerates the problem or not, guess it would be defined according to acceptable norms - which are obviously not something agreed upon, if this discussion is evidence.

You can choose to relate to the video posted as representative of general views, but somehow very resistant to the notion that other evidence (such as presented in the OP) is representative of anything. Go figure. Repeating that the OP exaggerates the issue without actually showing how is not very helpful.

[Jingthing]

The UK government appears to think the increase in antisemitism is for real.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Morch]

Sadly this thread has has degenerated in to the usual arguments from a couple of posters that are not related to the reality.

Golders Green in London is probably the biggest centre of Jewish population in the UK.

Sadly some of the loudest voices on here have no knowledge of the UK or London and are spouting rubbish.

It is a nice middle class suburb where a cross section of people from various backgrounds live in harmony.

My advice to those who have never lived in the area or the UK is waste your time elsewhere and don't try to paint a picture from your ignorance.

And nobody was even contradicting this.

So please tell me how well you know the UK and places such as Golders Green Morch?

Perhaps you can point out some dangerous areas for me?

Are you even reading what I posted? Or rather, does it get beyond that instant anti-comment?

I have never posted anything to the effect that the UK is dangerous to Jews. Read my posts again if you do no believe me.

All I said was that this reports refers to a rise in such incidents compared to previous years, and that as a matter of applying such figures they are to be compared with the minority population in question, not the total population figures.

Nowhere did I claim that in absolute numbers there is anything on par with disaster - this is your faulty comprehension at work, perhaps.

You keep on saying that the figures are incorrect, and yet fail to provide any support for the claim (apart from a reference to an elusive BBC programme, not linked). I have no problem regarding such data, if presented, and changing my mind on the OP - I just refuse to do so solely on the force of an unsupported claim.

[Jay Sata]

You like some very regular posters on here are trying to comment on a topic of which you have no personal experience.

You have quite obviously no knowledge or understanding of the UK or indeed it's people and have avoided any sort of constructive comment outside of what appears on the internet.

If you don't know then do not try to inflame a situation that does not exist.

[Morch]

You like some very regular posters on here are trying to comment on a topic of which you have no personal experience.

You have quite obviously no knowledge or understanding of the UK or indeed it's people and have avoided any sort of constructive comment outside of what appears on the internet.

If you don't know then do not try to inflame a situation that does not exist.

And still, you can raise no better argument than "you ain't from around here".

Instead of referring to the content of posts, you are continually indulging in personal references.

[Jay Sata]

Just trying to highlight you haven't got a clue what you are talking about because like other 'regular' posters you ain't been within the sound of Bow Bells.

Try and work that one out!

The more you bluster from google the more you let yourself down and to use a Thai term lose face.

[Morch]

Just trying to highlight you haven't got a clue what you are talking about because like other 'regular' posters you ain't been within the sound of Bow Bells.

Try and work that one out!

The more you bluster from google the more you let yourself down and to use a Thai term lose face.

So, no factual arguments, merely personal?

[Jay Sata]

Just trying to highlight you haven't got a clue what you are talking about because like other 'regular' posters you ain't been within the sound of Bow Bells.

Try and work that one out!

The more you bluster from google the more you let yourself down and to use a Thai term lose face.

So, no factual arguments, merely personal?

Nothing personal but you and a couple of others are quick to jump in on topics and places you have never been to or have knowledge of.

It is just like Fox News and their ignorance of Birmingham UK recently. Amusing for those of us who live in Britain or who are well travelled.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jay Sata

[rgs2001uk]

The UK government appears to think the increase in antisemitism is for real.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I tend to take with a large pinch of salt not only what the UK gov't says, but all gov'ts.

It was after all the UK gov't that told us probably the biggest lie in history, WMD.

Dont let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

[Jay Sata]

The UK government appears to think the increase in antisemitism is for real.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I tend to take with a large pinch of salt not only what the UK gov't says, but all gov'ts.

It was after all the UK gov't that told us probably the biggest lie in history, WMD.

Dont let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

That came from Bush and his redneck pals.

One thing we have established here is how many regulars post from a position of ignorance never having set foot in the UK.

[Seastallion]

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion, it is not an entirely unreasonable one. What would be unreasonable would be to jump to a definite conclusion on a person being an antisemite (jew hater), just because he speaks of holocausts or Hitler when refering to Israel.

"Possible antisemite" would be more appropriate in future, as from your own admission, you're basing it on the odds, not the facts.

I did not "admit" to anything.

When I make my mind up on someone's opinions it is usually after having prolonged exposure to what he expresses on relevant topics. Usually try not to jump to conclusions, unless its too obvious to interpret otherwise. What I meant was simply, that relying on such comparisons is often indicative of antisemitic bias. It may not always be the case, it may be less pronounced or less obvious, but its there. If someone wishes to simply criticize Israel, there is no specific need to allude to the Nazis - many more fitting examples for comparison. The extra bonus of resorting to the Nazi comparison is aimed at robbing Jews of their right to say anything when antisemitism raises its head.

You said that you're sure it raises the odds.

But now you're talking about you and this forum. I was talking generally and to the OP.

So.....Hitler and holocaust references have odds that they are actual antisemitic, and thus odds that they are not.

What I contend is that the report used in the OP exaggerates the problem and that some so-called antisemitic verbal or written attacks are not antisemitic at all. Odds are.

Looking at our closest actual reference to real people in the UK on this thread, ie the Jews in the audience of Question Time video posted, we can see a group of people intent on seeing any criticism of Israel or Zionists as antisemitism.

I think the report in the OP exaggerates the problem.

I was making a general point and later exemplified with how I personally make such judgements. Did not actually have TVF on my mind when posting the above, but another online venue, where a similar debate is in progress. Granted, it may apply to TVF as well.

The report discussed in the OP does not count each and every verbal/internet instance where the Hitler or the Holocaust were mentioned as being an antisemitic event. It takes consideration of the context and target of these statements. I don't know that it exaggerates the problem or not, guess it would be defined according to acceptable norms - which are obviously not something agreed upon, if this discussion is evidence.

You can choose to relate to the video posted as representative of general views, but somehow very resistant to the notion that other evidence (such as presented in the OP) is representative of anything. Go figure. Repeating that the OP exaggerates the issue without actually showing how is not very helpful.

I used your measure....the odds.

The report in the OP from the (cough cough) "charity" makes numerous claims of antisemitic verbal and written "attacks". Odds are some of those claims/allegations are simply anti-Zionist remarks spun into antisemitic remarks by the claimants.

We're not limited to Hitler or the holocaust, either.

[Morch]

Just trying to highlight you haven't got a clue what you are talking about because like other 'regular' posters you ain't been within the sound of Bow Bells.

Try and work that one out!

The more you bluster from google the more you let yourself down and to use a Thai term lose face.

So, no factual arguments, merely personal?

Nothing personal but you and a couple of others are quick to jump in on topics and places you have never been to or have knowledge of.

It is just like Fox News and their ignorance of Birmingham UK recently. Amusing for those of us who live in Britain or who are well travelled.

Ah, "I'm from the UK, therefore your argument is not valid". That's a novel approach to debate and discussion.

Rather than actually demonstrating how the OP is wrong, you take issue with posters.

"Because I know", "because I say so" are not very convincing statements.

If things are so clear cut, then the claims made in the OP ought to be pretty easy to counter.

[Ulysses G.]

Ah, "I'm from the UK, therefore your argument is not valid". That's a novel approach to debate and discussion.

Rather than actually demonstrating how the OP is wrong, you take issue with posters.

"Because I know", "because I say so" are not very convincing statements.

From now on, only Americans can respond on American topics and only Israelis can respond on topics about Israel. That makes lots of sense.

[Jingthing]

Ah, "I'm from the UK, therefore your argument is not valid". That's a novel approach to debate and discussion.

Rather than actually demonstrating how the OP is wrong, you take issue with posters.

"Because I know", "because I say so" are not very convincing statements.

From now on, only Americans can respond on American topics and only Israelis can respond on topics about Israel. That makes lots of sense.

I can see mentioning the fact once ... I have personal direct experience and you don't to potentially add some cred to a comment ... but the harping on about it as the ONLY argument, it's weak and obnoxious.

[chuckd]

Ah, "I'm from the UK, therefore your argument is not valid". That's a novel approach to debate and discussion.

Rather than actually demonstrating how the OP is wrong, you take issue with posters.

"Because I know", "because I say so" are not very convincing statements.

From now on, only Americans can respond on American topics and only Israelis can respond on topics about Israel. That makes lots of sense.

Unless you are bashing the US, Republicans or the Israeli devils.

Then the only thing required is a keyboard and internet access.

[Morch]

I did not "admit" to anything.

When I make my mind up on someone's opinions it is usually after having prolonged exposure to what he expresses on relevant topics. Usually try not to jump to conclusions, unless its too obvious to interpret otherwise. What I meant was simply, that relying on such comparisons is often indicative of antisemitic bias. It may not always be the case, it may be less pronounced or less obvious, but its there. If someone wishes to simply criticize Israel, there is no specific need to allude to the Nazis - many more fitting examples for comparison. The extra bonus of resorting to the Nazi comparison is aimed at robbing Jews of their right to say anything when antisemitism raises its head.

You said that you're sure it raises the odds.

But now you're talking about you and this forum. I was talking generally and to the OP.

So.....Hitler and holocaust references have odds that they are actual antisemitic, and thus odds that they are not.

What I contend is that the report used in the OP exaggerates the problem and that some so-called antisemitic verbal or written attacks are not antisemitic at all. Odds are.

Looking at our closest actual reference to real people in the UK on this thread, ie the Jews in the audience of Question Time video posted, we can see a group of people intent on seeing any criticism of Israel or Zionists as antisemitism.

I think the report in the OP exaggerates the problem.

I was making a general point and later exemplified with how I personally make such judgements. Did not actually have TVF on my mind when posting the above, but another online venue, where a similar debate is in progress. Granted, it may apply to TVF as well.

The report discussed in the OP does not count each and every verbal/internet instance where the Hitler or the Holocaust were mentioned as being an antisemitic event. It takes consideration of the context and target of these statements. I don't know that it exaggerates the problem or not, guess it would be defined according to acceptable norms - which are obviously not something agreed upon, if this discussion is evidence.

You can choose to relate to the video posted as representative of general views, but somehow very resistant to the notion that other evidence (such as presented in the OP) is representative of anything. Go figure. Repeating that the OP exaggerates the issue without actually showing how is not very helpful.

I used your measure....the odds.

The report in the OP from the (cough cough) "charity" makes numerous claims of antisemitic verbal and written "attacks". Odds are some of those claims/allegations are simply anti-Zionist remarks spun into antisemitic remarks by the claimants.

We're not limited to Hitler or the holocaust, either.

Some of the verbal and online comments reported could certainly be tied to anti-Israeli sentiment and views. You seem to think that they have a separate existence from antisemitic views, and my position is that this is often not the case. The use of Nazi related notions in order to comment on Israel is not necessary, but is a choice - a choice which could be construed as indicative of other views.

[dexterm]

I think people use the analogy simply because of the irony.

I am well aware of the suffering and persecution Jews experienced at the hands of Nazis in the Holocaust, and am amazed that Jewish survivors have gone and inflicted similar suffering (obviously not gas chambers) on Palestinians...dehumanizing them, ethnic cleansing to make room for their own people, theft of property and land, daily humiliations, beatings and murder, creation of ghettos for refugees..

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

Probably because they have been staunch enemies for around 100 years and the Palestinians refuse to make peace. It is not all that surprising really.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

I think people use the analogy simply because of the irony.

I am well aware of the suffering and persecution Jews experienced at the hands of Nazis in the Holocaust, and am amazed that Jewish survivors have gone and inflicted similar suffering (obviously not gas chambers) on Palestinians...dehumanizing them, ethnic cleansing to make room for their own people, theft of property and land, daily humiliations, beatings and murder, creation of ghettos for refugees..

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

To state that there is a similarity does not actually make it so.

These comparisons are not made due to any ironic sense, but in order to delegitimize and dehumanize.

[dexterm]

I think people use the analogy simply because of the irony.

I am well aware of the suffering and persecution Jews experienced at the hands of Nazis in the Holocaust, and am amazed that Jewish survivors have gone and inflicted similar suffering (obviously not gas chambers) on Palestinians...dehumanizing them, ethnic cleansing to make room for their own people, theft of property and land, daily humiliations, beatings and murder, creation of ghettos for refugees..

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

To state that there is a similarity does not actually make it so.

These comparisons are not made due to any ironic sense, but in order to delegitimize and dehumanize.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I think it is Israel that is doing all the delegitimizing and dehumanizing towards the Palestinians. How about their right to self determination too?

Many others experience the same feeling of irony in relation to Nazism and Zionism.

In remarks on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day two years ago, UK Lib Democratic MP David Ward wrote on his website: “Having visited Auschwitz twice I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/21/uk-politicians-beware-familiar-antisemitic-attacks-labour

[Seastallion]

The UK government appears to think the increase in antisemitism is for real.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

When Obama says "random" (and actually means "random"), the antisemite-blamers cry foul and his staff comments against the criticism are taken with a grain of salt or outright disbelief.

But the UK government supporting antisemite-blamers are believed immediately.

What's the common denominator here?

[Seastallion]

I think people use the analogy simply because of the irony.

I am well aware of the suffering and persecution Jews experienced at the hands of Nazis in the Holocaust, and am amazed that Jewish survivors have gone and inflicted similar suffering (obviously not gas chambers) on Palestinians...dehumanizing them, ethnic cleansing to make room for their own people, theft of property and land, daily humiliations, beatings and murder, creation of ghettos for refugees..

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

To state that there is a similarity does not actually make it so.

These comparisons are not made due to any ironic sense, but in order to delegitimize and dehumanize.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I think it is Israel that is doing all the delegitimizing and dehumanizing towards the Palestinians. How about their right to self determination too?

Many others experience the same feeling of irony in relation to Nazism and Zionism.

In remarks on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day two years ago, UK Lib Democratic MP David Ward wrote on his website: “Having visited Auschwitz twice I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/21/uk-politicians-beware-familiar-antisemitic-attacks-labour

Read again, Dex. Morch is not actually disagreeing with you. After all, it would be hard to disagree with you and maintain any credibility. He's a smart guy, is our Morch.

The first sentence is a prevarication and the second is a deflection.

Oh, no...I'm wrong... he did disagree that there is irony.

Funny that...when the irony is plain to see.

[Chicog]

The UK government appears to think the increase in antisemitism is for real.

Not exactly accurate, a group of MPs performed an inquiry and issued a report demanding antisemitic trolls get "Internet ASBOs", which is a pretty dumb idea anyway.

The report does make for grim reading. Renewed conflict in Gaza last year spurred an all-time high in anti-Semitic ‘incidents’ on Twitter and Facebook. References to Hitler and the Holocaust abounded, as keyboard politicos lapsed readily from nominal anti-Zionism into full-blown anti-Semitism.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/02/we-must-challenge-hate-speech-not-censor-it/

Edited February 12, 2015 by Scott
Edited for fair use

[Ulysses G.]

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

Probably because they have been staunch enemies for around 100 years and the Palestinians refuse to make peace. It is not all that surprising really.

A handful of Jews lived peacefully alongside Muslims and Christians for centuries prior to the establishment of Zionism in 1896. Palestinians even helped some of the first Zionist settlers. It was only when they realized that not only were Jewish immigrants arriving in larger numbers, but that according to their charter their intention was to swamp the Palestinian population with their own people and to create a Jewish state on land where Palestinians were by far the majority.

The world according to dexterm, along with - as usual - a link that does not support his false narrative. The Palestinian Arabs started attacking the Jews long before WWII and all those Jewish immigrants were even a thought. On top of that, Hamas refused the Arab Peace Plan and they are half of the government of the Palestinians, so it would be impossible to implement. The same old stuff.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

I cannot understand how many Jews, in the light of their own history, do not feel sympathy and even empathy for Palestinians.

Probably because they have been staunch enemies for around 100 years and the Palestinians refuse to make peace. It is not all that surprising really.

A handful of Jews lived peacefully alongside Muslims and Christians for centuries prior to the establishment of Zionism in 1896. Palestinians even helped some of the first Zionist settlers. It was only when they realized that not only were Jewish immigrants arriving in larger numbers, but that according to their charter their intention was to swamp the Palestinian population with their own people and to create a Jewish state on land where Palestinians were by far the majority.

The world according to dexterm, along with - as usual - a link that does not support his false narrative. The Palestinian Arabs started attacking the Jews long before WWII and all those Jewish immigrants were even a thought. On top of that, Hamas refused the Arab Peace Plan and they are half of the government of the Palestinians, so it would be impossible to implement. The same old stuff.

...and I wish their attacks had had more success in deterring future illegal Zionist immigrants, whose sole intention was to steal the land and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Fair justification in my book if thieves come a trespassing.

Millions of lives would have been saved if the Palestinians had resisted the Zionist invasion more forcefully in its early stages had their hands not been tied by the British colonialist masters.

Edited February 12, 2015 by dexterm

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^, watch out, waiting for the old, "land without a people for people without a land" propoganda card to be played.