Will my newborn need a passport?

[nzexpat]

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Thanks. My baby will only be about 4 weeks old when we travel, so getting a UK passport will not be practical, especially as I don't have a UK birth certificate as I was born in Zimbabwe, which always complicates passport matters!

We may decide to marry eventually, probably in the UK as it's easier than getting all the Lao paperwork. If I may, I might PM you about your experience if we go down that route later.

If you are a British Citizen you don't need a UK birth certificate as where you were born is not relevant, unless you hold some other type of British passport - British Overseas Citizen etc

This is how I understand it. I was registered as "Citizen of the UK and Colonies", as a Minor, in 1968 and I have the original certificate. Both my parents were British.

I don't believe I will have any problems getting my child a UK passport, however, if anyone thinks otherwise I would be very grateful to know why.

I am afraid it might not be as simple as you believe it to be. I would advice you to ask questions about this in the "Visas and migration to other countries" forum, but you could start out by reading this post.

I am not British so what little knowledge I have about this topic comes from reading ThaiVisa over the years, so what I am about to say should be taken with more than a grain of salt. But my understanding is that people born outside of Great Britain to British citizens are classified as "British by descent". If someone who is British by descent has a child, he/she can only automatically pass on their British citizenship to their child if that child is born inside Great Britain. However, it's a little more complicated than that, I believe that if the child can demonstrate enough ties to Great Britain (e.g. grows up and goes to school in Great Britain), the child may still be able to claim citizenship. Also, a child born outside of Great Britain (e.g. in Thailand) to parents who are both British by descent must probably be able to claim British citizenship, as the child would otherwise be left stateless.

But British citizenship laws are quite complicated, so you should take some time to investigate this more thoroughly.

Good luck.

Sophon

Indeed the issue is complex here is the detail

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chapter-20-british-citizenship-by-descent-and-otherwise-than-by-descent-nationality-instructions

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262401/chapter20.pdf

Professional advice may be needed .

[brewsterbudgen]

Indeed the issue is complex here is the detail

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chapter-20-british-citizenship-by-descent-and-otherwise-than-by-descent-nationality-instructions

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262401/chapter20.pdf

Professional advice may be needed .

Indeed! The key question for me is whether my registration as a Citizen of the UK & Colonies in 1968, under the British Nationality Act 1948, qualifies me as a British citizen otherwise than by descent. I believe it should, as I've lived in the UK since 1960 when I was 6 months old, until moving to Thailand for work (not emigration) in 2005.

If I am, then my child should acquire British Citizenship by descent even though I am not married to his/her Laotian mother and the child is born in Thailand.

[nzexpat]

Indeed the issue is complex here is the detail

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chapter-20-british-citizenship-by-descent-and-otherwise-than-by-descent-nationality-instructions

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262401/chapter20.pdf

Professional advice may be needed .

Indeed! The key question for me is whether my registration as a Citizen of the UK & Colonies in 1968, under the British Nationality Act 1948, qualifies me as a British citizen otherwise than by descent. I believe it should, as I've lived in the UK since 1960 when I was 6 months old, until moving to Thailand for work (not emigration) in 2005.

If I am, then my child should acquire British Citizenship by descent even though I am not married to his/her Laotian mother and the child is born in Thailand.

I am certain you will make appropriate inquiry !

Best of luck .

[brewsterbudgen]

Sorry to have to bump this thread when my question has been answered, but I'm still a little confused about how a 3-week old baby can be expected to have a passport? My baby will be born in Pattaya, to a Laotian mother & British father, and then we will be heading to Laos almost immediately. Taking the baby across the land border at Chong Mek will be fine (many others have done it) but for convenience we want to fly direct from BKK to Pakse on Lao Airlines. My Laotian relatives are convinced that a 3-week old baby, travelling with its parents and grandparent, cannot be stopped from returning 'home'.

RBOP has advised going to the Laos Embassy in Bangkok to get the baby added to the mother's passport, but none of my Laotian relatives seem to think this is a good idea. I think they are cautious about drawing the authorities' attention to a baby with an unmarried Laotian mother and foreign father.

Surely there must be a precedent for newborn babies flying before there is reasonable time to get a passport - especially for such a short-hop flight?

[paz]

Sorry to have to bump this thread when my question has been answered, but I'm still a little confused about how a 3-week old baby can be expected to have a passport? My baby will be born in Pattaya, to a Laotian mother & British father, and then we will be heading to Laos almost immediately. Taking the baby across the land border at Chong Mek will be fine (many others have done it) but for convenience we want to fly direct from BKK to Pakse on Lao Airlines. My Laotian relatives are convinced that a 3-week old baby, travelling with its parents and grandparent, cannot be stopped from returning 'home'.

RBOP has advised going to the Laos Embassy in Bangkok to get the baby added to the mother's passport, but none of my Laotian relatives seem to think this is a good idea. I think they are cautious about drawing the authorities' attention to a baby with an unmarried Laotian mother and foreign father.

Surely there must be a precedent for newborn babies flying before there is reasonable time to get a passport - especially for such a short-hop flight?

A short hop but still an international flight. If you want to know for sure about immigration allowing a baby to leave without a passport, perhaps the best way is that you go there in person and ask before booking your flight.

Otherwise you can take a domestic flight to Udon Thani, then cross by land and I would not be surprised to learn that the border post way of dealing with Lao minors is different from what they do at the airport.

I would rely more on that than the advice from Laotians which I doubt are flying internationally with babies very often.

Regarding your unmarried relationship with a Lao lady, I think before or after the issue will come up so you should be prepared to deal with that anyway.

[Mario2008]

Sorry to have to bump this thread when my question has been answered, but I'm still a little confused about how a 3-week old baby can be expected to have a passport? My baby will be born in Pattaya, to a Laotian mother & British father, and then we will be heading to Laos almost immediately. Taking the baby across the land border at Chong Mek will be fine (many others have done it) but for convenience we want to fly direct from BKK to Pakse on Lao Airlines. My Laotian relatives are convinced that a 3-week old baby, travelling with its parents and grandparent, cannot be stopped from returning 'home'.

RBOP has advised going to the Laos Embassy in Bangkok to get the baby added to the mother's passport, but none of my Laotian relatives seem to think this is a good idea. I think they are cautious about drawing the authorities' attention to a baby with an unmarried Laotian mother and foreign father.

Surely there must be a precedent for newborn babies flying before there is reasonable time to get a passport - especially for such a short-hop flight?

The embassy might issue an emergency travel document, giving you time to get a proper passport.

[Time Traveller]

Thanks for the link. I've had a quick read of it and as I read it, if my child gets a UK passport, his/her children will not automatically be entitled to British citizenship unless he/she can show ties to the UK.

I'm still fairly confident that my status as a British citizen, despite being born in Rhodesia in 1960 to British parents, and having held full British citizenship since 1968, means my children will be automatically entitled to a UK passport.

But I'm interested in other opinions!

Other opinions? The only opinion that matters is the UK government. Why don't you just ask them?

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks for the link. I've had a quick read of it and as I read it, if my child gets a UK passport, his/her children will not automatically be entitled to British citizenship unless he/she can show ties to the UK.

I'm still fairly confident that my status as a British citizen, despite being born in Rhodesia in 1960 to British parents, and having held full British citizenship since 1968, means my children will be automatically entitled to a UK passport.

But I'm interested in other opinions!

Other opinions? The only opinion that matters is the UK government. Why don't you just ask them?

I will. But 7by7 has already answered this on another thread. This thread isn't about the UK government.

[samran]

Your child will need a passport. No doubt. If it is a Laos citizen it may be able to get s border pass on the lao side of the border to cross into thailand for 3 days max, but no Thai authority will issue a foreign national with a border pass to cross back into Laos.

Your child does not immediately need a passport to stay in Thailand after it is born, but one will become necessary as soon as the child departs the Kingdom.

How long that takes will be up to the respective country's embassy.

Edited February 11, 2015 by samran

[brewsterbudgen]

Your child will need a passport. No doubt. If it is a Laos citizen it may be able to get s border pass on the lao side of the border to cross into thailand for 3 days max, but no Thai authority will issue a foreign national with a border pass to cross back into Laos.

Your child does not immediately need a passport to stay in Thailand after it is born, but one will become necessary as soon as the child departs the Kingdom.

How long that takes will be up to the respective country's embassy.

What you say isn't true, in practice anyway. My GF's sister had a baby in Thailand and was able to take it back home to Laos across the land border. No pass or passport required. I'm fairly sure that my GF will be able to bring our baby from Thailand to Laos across the same land border. What can they do? My GF's permission to stay in Thailand will be expiring and they are hardly going to take the 3-week old baby off her!!

There must be hundreds of Laotian and Cambodian women having babies in Thailand and then returning "home". I don't believe they all get passports to cross the border!

My question is about leaving via the airport to fly to Pakse, where I can understand things may be stricter. That said, confronted by two Lao women with expiring permissions to stay in Thailand, what can they do?

[paz]

My question is about leaving via the airport to fly to Pakse, where I can understand things may be stricter. That said, confronted by two Lao women with expiring permissions to stay in Thailand, what can they do?

That don't let the person pass their desk.

At a land border is different. One can just walk across, or cross the river at night, etc. Plenty of people do that.

[brewsterbudgen]

My question is about leaving via the airport to fly to Pakse, where I can understand things may be stricter. That said, confronted by two Lao women with expiring permissions to stay in Thailand, what can they do?

That don't let the person pass their desk.

At a land border is different. One can just walk across, or cross the river at night, etc. Plenty of people do that.

I can assure you that Laotian kids come and go across the Chong Mek border without any type of ID. I should know as two of them are currently staying in my house.

However you might be right about the airport.

How anyone can expect a passport to be applied for and issued to a few weeks old baby so that it can travel home is beyond me!

[phuketrichard]

ASAP get ur child its British passport,which is its right as being ur child

to many things can happen and its ur duty to make sure ur child is taken care of

as far as laos goes i have no idea but i would think having a child out of wedlock is NOT a good thing for her

MY daughter was born in Thailand to a a thai and even thou we were not married she had her US passport when she was 2 months old an than got her thai passport when she was 1 year old

Edited February 12, 2015 by phuketrichard

[phuketrichard]

Sorry to have to bump this thread when my question has been answered, but I'm still a little confused about how a 3-week old baby can be expected to have a passport? My baby will be born in Pattaya, to a Laotian mother & British father, and then we will be heading to Laos almost immediately. Taking the baby across the land border at Chong Mek will be fine (many others have done it) but for convenience we want to fly direct from BKK to Pakse on Lao Airlines. My Laotian relatives are convinced that a 3-week old baby, travelling with its parents and grandparent, cannot be stopped from returning 'home'.

think about what you just wrote? so since the child is also urs do u think u can get on a plane with your child an fly back to the UK without a Passport?

dont think so

as i said my daughter had her US passport when she was 2 months old

Edited February 12, 2015 by phuketrichard

[brewsterbudgen]

ASAP get ur child its British passport,which is its right as being ur child

to many things can happen and its ur duty to make sure ur child is taken care of

as far as laos goes i have no idea but i would think having a child out of wedlock is NOT a good thing for her

MY daughter was born in Thailand to a a thai and even thou we were not married she had her US passport when she was 2 months old an than got her thai passport when she was 1

Thanks. Yes, I will be applying for a UK passport for the child, but, like you, maybe when it's 3 months old and not 3 weeks after it's been born!

I know very well that having a child out of wedlock with a Laotian is not ideal, but getting married isn't easy either and as the bay is a month away it won't be happening before the happy event!!

[brewsterbudgen]

Sorry to have to bump this thread when my question has been answered, but I'm still a little confused about how a 3-week old baby can be expected to have a passport? My baby will be born in Pattaya, to a Laotian mother & British father, and then we will be heading to Laos almost immediately. Taking the baby across the land border at Chong Mek will be fine (many others have done it) but for convenience we want to fly direct from BKK to Pakse on Lao Airlines. My Laotian relatives are convinced that a 3-week old baby, travelling with its parents and grandparent, cannot be stopped from returning 'home'.

think about what you just wrote? so since the child is also urs do u think u can get on a plane with your child an fly back to the UK without a Passport?

dont think so

as i said my daughter had her US passport when she was 1 moth old

Of course not. My query was about travelling the short distance from Thailand to Pakse. I know we can travel back via the land border, I was just hoping we could fly direct.

I spoke with a travel agent I use today, who agreed with a previous poster that the Laos Embassy should be able to issue a document to allow the baby to travel back. I may pursue this, but as we are not married, I am reluctant to involve the Laos authorities.

[Mario2008]

At the airport they will check very strictly because of prevention of human trafficking.

As said, try a emergency travel document from the embassy.

[paz]

I spoke with a travel agent I use today, who agreed with a previous poster that the Laos Embassy should be able to issue a document to allow the baby to travel back. I may pursue this, but as we are not married, I am reluctant to involve the Laos authorities.

In reality is the mother that has to get the documents for the baby, not you, exactly because you are not married. She doesn't even have to divulge who the father is beyond whatever is on the birth certificate, also because there is no certainty of paternity for child born out of wedlock (take no offense here - I'm just going by Thai law, assuming Lao law is not much different).

[phuketrichard]

i wonder, if she has not had the baby ,

My baby will be born in Pattaya

why not go back to Laos now before? or do u not have faith in the hospitals there?

OR

Devils advocate;

Would laos allow u to be placed on the child's BC if your NOT married?

Just Wondering

In Thailand a Fathers name/Nationality HAS to be on the bc.

[brewsterbudgen]

i wonder, if she has not had the baby ,

My baby will be born in Pattaya

why not go back to Laos now before? or do u not have faith in the hospitals there?

OR

Devils advocate;

Would laos allow u to be placed on the child's BC if your NOT married?

Just Wondering

In Thailand a Fathers name/Nationality HAS to be on the bc.

We live in Thailand, where I work. No, I am not confident about the medical facilities in Laos, in any way. In any case, my girlfriend hasn't lived in Laos for 5 years, although her family home is there.

Laos has nothing to do with the birth certificate, as it will be issued in Thailand. My name will be shown as the father, although, until, or if, we marry I know this doesn't give me full paternal rights.

We are returning to Laos for the Songkran holiday. We will be returning to our home in Thailand when Songkran is over.

My question was purely about whether we can fly direct from BKK with the 3-week old baby. The travel agent (confirmed by Mario2008) says we can if we have permission from the Laos Embassy. My girlfriend may try to get this (if we have time) and I will remain out of the picture to avoid complicating matters (as advised by Paz). Alternatively we will travel overland.

In time, I will apply for a British passport for the child.

I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for your interest.

Edited February 13, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[Ohng]

i wonder, if she has not had the baby ,

My baby will be born in Pattaya

why not go back to Laos now before? or do u not have faith in the hospitals there?

OR

Devils advocate;

Would laos allow u to be placed on the child's BC if your NOT married?

Just Wondering

In Thailand a Fathers name/Nationality HAS to be on the bc.

We live in Thailand, where I work. No, I am not confident about the medical facilities in Laos, in any way. In any case, my girlfriend hasn't lived in Laos for 5 years, although her family home is there.

Laos has nothing to do with the birth certificate, as it will be issued in Thailand. My name will be shown as the father, although, until, or if, we marry I know this doesn't give me full paternal rights.

We are returning to Laos for the Songkran holiday. We will be returning to our home in Thailand when Songkran is over.

My question was purely about whether we can fly direct from BKK with the 3-week old baby. The travel agent (confirmed by Mario2008) says we can if we have permission from the Laos Embassy. My girlfriend may try to get this (if we have time) and I will remain out of the picture to avoid complicating matters (as advised by Paz). Alternatively we will travel overland.

In time, I will apply for a British passport for the child.

I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for your interest.

I just wanna add here.

The child's BC will clearly show your name as a father and your wife will need to show this BC to Laos Embassy to issue the Emergency Travel Document but the propose of this document is to help their citizen to travel back their home country. And you will have a problem on the way back if you are traveling by air and the airline won't let your child check-in.

[lovelaos]

My Lao wife gave birth to our daughter in Udonthani last week. I am also British and we are not married yet but live together in Laos. The hospital will give you a Thai birth certificate which states the child is not a Thai citizen. They will also give you a document in Thai explaining the situation. They will translate the birth certificate into English for a fee. At the Thai-Lao border I presented me and my wife's passport and the Thai document and was greeted with a smile and congratulations from the female immigration officer (very unusual) the whole time the wife and child stayed in the car. On return to Laos, the naiban was informed of the birth and we were issued with a Lao birth certificate within 2 days.

I do not know if this will be different if you fly into laos but I don't see why it should be. If you don't find the answer you are looking for, maybe you should travel over the border by land rather than fly.

[Mario2008]

My Lao wife gave birth to our daughter in Udonthani last week. I am also British and we are not married yet but live together in Laos. The hospital will give you a Thai birth certificate which states the child is not a Thai citizen. They will also give you a document in Thai explaining the situation. They will translate the birth certificate into English for a fee. At the Thai-Lao border I presented me and my wife's passport and the Thai document and was greeted with a smile and congratulations from the female immigration officer (very unusual) the whole time the wife and child stayed in the car. On return to Laos, the naiban was informed of the birth and we were issued with a Lao birth certificate within 2 days.

I do not know if this will be different if you fly into laos but I don't see why it should be. If you don't find the answer you are looking for, maybe you should travel over the border by land rather than fly.

Birth certificates are not issued by the hospital. What the hospital does give is a confirmation of the birth and often the hospital will offer to arrange the birth certificate at the amphur for you.

[lovelaos]

My Lao wife gave birth to our daughter in Udonthani last week. I am also British and we are not married yet but live together in Laos. The hospital will give you a Thai birth certificate which states the child is not a Thai citizen. They will also give you a document in Thai explaining the situation. They will translate the birth certificate into English for a fee. At the Thai-Lao border I presented me and my wife's passport and the Thai document and was greeted with a smile and congratulations from the female immigration officer (very unusual) the whole time the wife and child stayed in the car. On return to Laos, the naiban was informed of the birth and we were issued with a Lao birth certificate within 2 days.

I do not know if this will be different if you fly into laos but I don't see why it should be. If you don't find the answer you are looking for, maybe you should travel over the border by land rather than fly.

Birth certificates are not issued by the hospital. What the hospital does give is a confirmation of the birth and often the hospital will offer to arrange the birth certificate at the amphur for you.

Well mine says "birth certificate" quite clearly at the top of the paper!! Along with "no entitlement to Thai citizenship"

I have been told by the British Embassy here in VTE that it is a "birth certificate" and can be used to register the birth in UK.

[Mario2008]

Not having seen a Thai birth certificate before, but a Thai birth certificate is in Thai. I doubt it will say "birth certificate" in English. Thai documents tend to be in Thai only.

It might be a "birth certificate" from the hospital, but might not be from the amphur which gives out real birth certificates. Better to check sure. The embassy in Laos might not know what a Thai birth certificate looks like.

If it isn't a birth certificate from the amphur, it will not be a problem other then that you will have to register the child at the amphur and pay a fine if the birth was more than 15 days ago.

[brewsterbudgen]

Just to update this thread: my Lao girlfriend and my 3 week old son (I'm British) successfully crossed the Thailand/Laos border at Chong Mek on 12 April, and no birth certificate or documentation of any kind was necessary or asked for by immigration (both Thai and Lao) for the newborn. She had the (Thai) birth certificate with her, but it wasn't required. She'll be returning with the child in early May, and I assume the situation will be the same.

[paz]

Just to update this thread: my Lao girlfriend and my 3 week old son (I'm British) successfully crossed the Thailand/Laos border at Chong Mek on 12 April, and no birth certificate or documentation of any kind was necessary or asked for by immigration (both Thai and Lao) for the newborn. She had the (Thai) birth certificate with her, but it wasn't required. She'll be returning with the child in early May, and I assume the situation will be the same.

Very good. The reality of things is that officers in these part of this world look at minors travelling in a different way than the West world.