Internet connection

[NickJ]

Defib machines....fire trucks laptops exercise equipment.....flood control projects........the list is probably as long as the amity treaty.....

[soalbundy]

A question for the experts:

Is it true that tasers can be used as defibrillators? (Not intended as a joke; serious question.)

depends on the diameter of your large intestine.

[uppo]

You should familiarize yourself with the equipment first before unknowingly assigning it characteristics that don't exist.

Both of your assertions are wrong.

Thank you, you just proved my point perfectly.

If at least two members here (probably most here) don't know how they work, how on this earth do they expect the locals or tourists passing by to know how they work?

They find someone nearby who is literate and can read simply directions and can understand simple verbal directions from the machine while the machine determines the appropriate treatment (eg. to defibrilliate or not).

To repeat again to you, you should familiarize yourself with the basics of the equipment first before continually making wrong presumptions.

I just watched a couple of youtube videos on how to use them.

Slight progress in the pursuit of having a fundamental understanding on the topic you're commenting on.

Glad the message finally got through somewhat.

[outboard]

A question for the experts:

Is it true that tasers can be used as defibrillators? (Not intended as a joke; serious question.)

no. Just no

[FireMedic]

A question for the experts:

Is it true that tasers can be used as defibrillators? (Not intended as a joke; serious question.)

100% no, not at anytime. Totally different electric waveform. Joules vs volts and how they interact with your body is completely different.

Edited February 18, 2015 by FireMedic

[FireMedic]

Will they be regularly tested and replaced if found faulty?

Zoll AEDs have 5 year warranties plus 2 more years if they are registered online. Batteries and pads are good for 5 years as well. They do internal maintenance checks weekly and will alert if there is an issue, usually an overdue battery or expired pads.

is it difficult to nick the batteries

Difficult? Not easy....but not difficult. As with everything, if someone wants it, they will get it.

[FireMedic]

I know there are some farangs here that will never change their minds no matter what facts are presented. I get it...I understand how easy it is to be cynical here. I have stopped at many accidents, including fatalities and assisted. Not one time has anyone even suggested it was my fault, nor have I ever been asked to pay money for any reason. I've helped sick and injured all over Thailand and not ever a bad outcome. I can and will Thai Bash with the best of them, but not in this case. 99% of the cases we hear about family members holding the farang accountable for the persons death has been passed on hearsay for years and years. Even if a person wanted to get froggy and demand money from you, the court would tell them to piss off. If the farang would be dumb enough to cough up cash because he was scared.....well then he should be better informed about the laws.

Today, I taught a class on this subject at Chulalongkorn University as it related to CPR. The Director of Emergency medicine was on hand as well. He have a 30 min lecture as well.

[Gutenberg]

I bought an AED, around $1500, defibtech "Automatic". Because you all know what happens if you have a heart attack in rural village: Take your last breaths in the back of a 80's pickup. Saw it many times and they always die.

So with the automatic feature, my wife can also use it in a heart attack situation, if she wants .

Seems to be pretty neat, attach the pads, the AED checks and shocks automatic, survive.

http://www.defibtech.com/intl/lifeline-auto/features

Better to have one in the case a heart attack happens, I am even considering buying this automatic CPR machine. So they can put the stuff on me and throw me onto the back of the pickup - and I will probably still survive.

[simon43]

and can understand simple verbal directions from the machine while the machine determines the appropriate treatment

The defib that I keep at my hotel is very easy to use - just follow the verbal instructions .... if you understand English

Do these defibs give the verbal instructions in Thai language??

[Artisi]

Will they be regularly tested and replaced if found faulty?

Zoll AEDs have 5 year warranties plus 2 more years if they are registered online. Batteries and pads are good for 5 years as well. They do internal maintenance checks weekly and will alert if there is an issue, usually an overdue battery or expired pads.

is it difficult to nick the batteries

Nope, just take the machine.

[hawker9000]

and can understand simple verbal directions from the machine while the machine determines the appropriate treatment

The defib that I keep at my hotel is very easy to use - just follow the verbal instructions .... if you understand English

Do these defibs give the verbal instructions in Thai language??

This is me, biting my tongue...

[FireMedic]

and can understand simple verbal directions from the machine while the machine determines the appropriate treatment

The defib that I keep at my hotel is very easy to use - just follow the verbal instructions .... if you understand English

Do these defibs give the verbal instructions in Thai language??

Simon, I'm sorry I didn't follow up.

Yes, Zoll defibs sold in Thailand give verbal directions in Thai.

[FireMedic]

and can understand simple verbal directions from the machine while the machine determines the appropriate treatment

The defib that I keep at my hotel is very easy to use - just follow the verbal instructions .... if you understand English

Do these defibs give the verbal instructions in Thai language??

This is me, biting my tongue...

See my last post.....

[DavidBonnie]

This is the funniest thread in ages but also the most earnestly intended. An army friend of mine is now an a paramedic in London but just spent a month or so in India teaching the use of defibrulators.

I too have seen the police standing by while a young woman's body lay draped over a motorcycle as she died.

Hope the scheme works and a Thai saves a life or two but I think the fear of being pisshed by a ghost may put a lot of them off, that or 'mai bpen rai'.

[FireMedic]

I bought an AED, around $1500, defibtech "Automatic". Because you all know what happens if you have a heart attack in rural village: Take your last breaths in the back of a 80's pickup. Saw it many times and they always die.

So with the automatic feature, my wife can also use it in a heart attack situation, if she wants .

Seems to be pretty neat, attach the pads, the AED checks and shocks automatic, survive.

http://www.defibtech.com/intl/lifeline-auto/features

Better to have one in the case a heart attack happens, I am even considering buying this automatic CPR machine. So they can put the stuff on me and throw me onto the back of the pickup - and I will probably still survive.

BDMS hospitals have purchased these and will be using them. They are also installed in a few hospitals upcountry...Khon Kean, Udon, Chiang Mai, Phuket, Hat Yai, and a bunch others. They are expensive here in Thailand, but the alternative is counting on a foundation medic to do CPR throughout the transport.

[RKUmedic22]

Instead of fitting the actual first responder vehicles with them...

Amen! How I wish these were available to us (first responders/rescue crews) in our trucks instead of hanging on walls in places where they may never get used. My own group runs eight ambulance trucks and none of us have an AED on board and I've never seen any on board other trucks I've encountered in the field. We are all trained first responders (I am the medic-in-charge with an advanced EMT license) and have to purchase our own medical supplies, equipment, vehicles, fuel, uniforms, etc. We do not have sponsors and get no support from the Thai government as well. If we have the time to fill out a bunch of lengthy forms at the hospital, we can get a 300 Baht stipend (paid out once every 3 months), but 99% of the time we are too busy to jump through those hoops with calls waiting and, frankly, 300 Baht doesn't go very far compared to our expenditures. Contrary to what many here incorrectly assume, we do not make any [real] money from our services and do it purely from altruistic motivations.

If anyone who is reading this is related to the sponsors of this project and/or knows how we could secure even just one of these AEDs for our rescue team, and other groups like ours, please let me know! Unfortunately, a $600-$1,000 US price tag is just too much for us to purchase on our own, for those of you thinking we should/could pursue that route instead. Aside from two famous Thai movie actors who are in our organization, we are all mostly blue-collar, middle class folks with day jobs that don't pay enough for this level of equipment. I've been a public school teacher here for going on 20 years now and, even with a M.Ed degree, don't make enough to purchase one for my own truck, even though I spend over 40+ hours a week taking ambulance/rescue calls for service and could really, really use one.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help with more information regarding this project!

[tartempion]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

Edited December 14, 2015 by tartempion

[FireMedic]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

[Singerman]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

Is there any evidence of AED's improving outcomes in the case of out of hospital CA scenarios ?

[sharecropper]

Surely the amount of money for these would be better spent on a public awareness campaign on heart health.

But where's the scam in that?

[geriatrickid]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

Not entirely correct. MI patients typically die once the heart goes into one of the forms of fibrillation. Prior to that point, tachycardia can be exhibited 15- 60 minutes prior. EMTs will defib to restore a regular heartbeat. It isn't a solution because the patient still needs to get to the catheter lab and have revascularization within the treatment window.

The big issue is and has always been the delay in obtaining critical care. Thailand has a dismal critical response time. Poor resources, traffic congestion and a lack of facilities take their toll. Have a serious heart attack outside a big city and you will most likely die.

Developed countries learned long ago that a quick response, a stoop and scoop with stabilization done while in transit, that cuts critical minutes off the patient delivery is the most decisive factor in survival rates. I don't know how qualified EMTs keep their sanity in Thailand. It's a frustrating activity.

Is there any evidence of AED's improving outcomes in the case of out of hospital CA scenarios ?

Yes. However it has only been thoroughly studied in western countries, particularly the USA. There are 40+ research papers on the subject. They are most useful there is a critical mass of people. However, it requires public sensitization. People have to know what to do. There is only a window of 3-5 minutes to act before death becomes inevitable. AEDs in Thailand will be useless unless people are educated and trained to recognize heart crises.

[Singerman]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

Not entirely correct. MI patients typically die once the heart goes into one of the forms of fibrillation. Prior to that point, tachycardia can be exhibited 15- 60 minutes prior. EMTs will defib to restore a regular heartbeat. It isn't a solution because the patient still needs to get to the catheter lab and have revascularization within the treatment window.

The big issue is and has always been the delay in obtaining critical care. Thailand has a dismal critical response time. Poor resources, traffic congestion and a lack of facilities take their toll. Have a serious heart attack outside a big city and you will most likely die.

Developed countries learned long ago that a quick response, a stoop and scoop with stabilization done while in transit, that cuts critical minutes off the patient delivery is the most decisive factor in survival rates. I don't know how qualified EMTs keep their sanity in Thailand. It's a frustrating activity.

Is there any evidence of AED's improving outcomes in the case of out of hospital CA scenarios ?

Yes. However it has only been thoroughly studied in western countries, particularly the USA. There are 40+ research papers on the subject. They are most useful there is a critical mass of people. However, it requires public sensitization. People have to know what to do. There is only a window of 3-5 minutes to act before death becomes inevitable. AEDs in Thailand will be useless unless people are educated and trained to recognize heart crises.

You claim there is "evidence" but provide not a single link to what you claim are published research papers ..............................

[FireMedic]

Unless you've lived under a rock for the last 20 years, everyone knows AEDs save lives. If it is taught in AHA Guidelines as a standard, that should be all the "research" you need.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/HealthcareTraining/BasicLifeSupportBLS/Basic-Life-Support-BLS_UCM_001281_SubHomePage.jsp#

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/search/searchResults.jsp;jsessionid=dtvO+t1L0M95mdCo2mu2PgiA.ahawebpa1?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_dynSessConf=-1551001173714315739&q=aed

[RubbaJohnny]

Still awaiting the

De Fib you later

[geriatrickid]

You claim there is "evidence" but provide not a single link to what you claim are published research papers ..............................

If I provided the link to one research study would you go and read the report? Are you even capable of understanding the document?

I doubt it.

However, if you are that gungo ho; here's one, its from the Journal of American Medicine

The Automated External Defibrillator Clinical Benefits and Legal Liability Hannah England, Paul S. Weinberg, Mark Estes

JAMA. 2006;295(6):687-690. doi:10.1001/jama.295.6.687.

On a subject like this, it is quite easy to request a meta search. One doesn't need access to an online medical library. There's a search engine called Google. You put your search criteria in the search box and search, Come back and criticize once you have made an effort to support your erroneous claim.

Edited December 24, 2015 by geriatrickid

[Gutenberg]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

So you say I bought mine without a reason?

[FireMedic]

If I understand this correctly an AED is not useful in case of miocardial infarct?

Anyway, I think every anamai and school should have one.

AEDs are most successfully used in Sudden Cardiac Arrest situations....like you see during football fields, marathons, public events...etc. While you can defib MI patients, the ONLY real help for MIs is a trip to a cath lab.

So you say I bought mine without a reason?

Absolutely not! Any chance is better than no chance! Like I've said in NUMEROUS threads here before, if anyone is having any chest pain or discomfort, please go to the hospital immediately. Most sudden collapse cases, the patient wasn't complaining of pain or discomfort. There is a huge difference between SCA and MIs. SCA can be fixed asap with good cpr and a defib. A true MI can only be resolved after perfusion to the heart muscle is re-established via cath-stent.

[huawei]

Where in Bangkok can you buy them.

Thanks

[Monomial]

Hmmm. Previous post get sent prematurely. Don't quite know how. Allow me to continue.

They can be had for as little as $600 USD. And, no, you do not need to be a health care provider to buy one. I would encourage anyone with a potential heart risk to look into this. I think you will agree that the cost is trivial given the high probability it may save your life or that of someone close to you.

I've looked into buying one of these before and never seen one offered anywhere for less than $1000.

Could you please provide a link to a source where these can be reliably purchased for $600? What brand is this cheap, and is there any reason to get a more expensive one? I would not agree with you that $1000 - $1500 is trivial for many people. That is 5 - 10 years worth of health insurance. It may be a trivial cost if you are basically wealthy and can afford it, but many can not.

You would be doing the community a favor however, if you expanded on your statement a little bit. Where did you find these low cost AEDs, and what makes one better than the other?

[Dogmatix]

But you can be sure this will be a money making scam. Like the BMA fake CCTV cameras and the army's fake explosives defectors you find only an empty box if you need to use one I hope politicians in the parliament will be the first to test one.