Do Luk Kreung Children Have Good Prospects?

[berries]

If you bring your children up in Thailand are you limiting their future prospects? We all know that most jobs in Thailand are incredibly low paid, including top professional jobs such as doctors, engineers and lawyers. The only way to get a decent salary seems to be to either own your own business (and pay your employees terrible wages!) or get into a profession on an expat package. Even luk kreung children who go to the top international schools and are sent to universities abroad are not necessarily guaranteed good salaries on their return. Admittedly I don't know a lot of luk kreung adults, but of the few I do know all are earning under 50,000 baht a month, despite having had tens of thousands of dollars spent on their education. And there are the millions of others who attend Thai schools and go to Thai universites. What are their future prospects?

[tom yum goong]

hi berries

i'm one of those luk krueng children who studied abroad (boarding school and uni in the UK) and now work in Phuket. i'm 26 and moved back to Thailand 2 years ago.

i could be earning a lot more money in the UK, i earn slightly more than 50k but not much however, after nearly 13 years studying and working there all i could think about was moving back here. i guess its down to quality of life. i'm still young but I know i'm not advancing my career very much by working in Phuket. But thats not why i'm here. this is paradise for me and i am enjoying myself.

i also know i could be earning more in Bangkok, maybe try and get a posting from the UK to work out here, but i grew up in Bangkok and i know i couldn't live there again - i can't stand the pollution and traffic.

maybe after a few years i will go back to the UK and continue my studies, then get a job and work for a few years there. But if i had to choose a place to settle down, it would be Thailand.

if you have the option, i think its important that you get them a western education. there will be so many more options open to them.

TYG

Edited August 23, 2006 by tom yum goong

[Heng]

I have more than a few luk krung friends, all across the spectrum (of age and profession). They have, just like anyone else, their own mix of advantages: often have dual nationality, fluency in more than one language, eastern + western mind set, etc., disadvantages: upward movement within companies often limited by glass ceiling, often have lack of access to local nepotism + school/group networks, sometimes face identity crisis type situations as to where their allegiance/origins lie, etc., and prospects... and of course they'll all vary from individual to individual.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Heng

[GuestHouse]

If we look at investment on international education in Thailand v return in terms of salary and advancement for luek krungs who stay in Kingdom then I think there is little doubt that the returns are pretty poor.

Bangkok International schools are charging fees equivelent to some of the most prestigous public (private) schools in the UK and yet the investment does not break the glass ceiling in Thailand.

Let us remind ourselves that Thaksin boasted that his telecom business employed no foreigners and that Thai Airways announced a few years back (as part of celebrations for the King's birthday) that they had replaced all foreign pilots with Thais. I mention the fact TA enveloped this within the King's birthday celebrations because I think it underscourse the importance of Thainess and with Thainess exclusion.

But is education only about earning a better living? My view is that there is a lot more to it than simple training for a job.

It's not even just about education but also about what we can pass on to our children in terms of values and outlook.

Some will do well, some will flounder, but it is as much to do with the family and the child as it is with Thailand.

For the many who are on their second family, perhaps they might compare and contrast how each family did and if location had any real impact.

[Vespa]

If we look at investment on international education in Thailand v return in terms of salary and advancement for luek krungs who stay in Kingdom then I think there is little doubt that the returns are pretty poor.

Bangkok International schools are charging fees equivelent to some of the most prestigous public (private) schools in the UK and yet the investment does not break the glass ceiling in Thailand.

Let us remind ourselves that Thaksin boasted that his telecom business employed no foreigners and that Thai Airways announced a few years back (as part of celebrations for the King's birthday) that they had replaced all foreign pilots with Thais. I mention the fact TA enveloped this within the King's birthday celebrations because I think it underscourse the importance of Thainess and with Thainess exclusion.

But is education only about earning a better living? My view is that there is a lot more to it than simple training for a job.

It's not even just about education but also about what we can pass on to our children in terms of values and outlook.

Some will do well, some will flounder, but it is as much to do with the family and the child as it is with Thailand.

For the many who are on their second family, perhaps they might compare and contrast how each family did and if location had any real impact.

Also consider the next generation and the current World we live in

[jbowman1993]

Every time Guesthouse writes one of his diatribes, I always find myself nodding along in agreement. You are right on the nose!

[billd766]

I also agree with Guesthouse.

I am one of those people on my second family and I have hopefully learned from my mistakes first time around. At 62 I can take the time to be with our 2 year old son which I could't before due to earning a living.

My wife wants him to go to school in the UK when he is about 14 which is totally the wrong time over there, it should be around 11 or 18 but we have a bit of time yet. However she also wants to send him to pre pre school now and I really don't want this to happen because of 2 reasons

Firstly if we send him to school from pre pre to the end of university he will have spent perhaps 20 or more years being educated.

Secondly and most important to me, he is a little boy and I would like him to enjoy little boy things like playing with friends etc. He doesn't need to grow up too quickly and miss his childhod as the second childhood comes when you are my age and unless he have young children he will miss out again on all the fun and excitement of children.

I wouldn't want him to have a life of education and work and no good memories to look back on.

quote Guesthouse

If we look at investment on international education in Thailand v return in terms of salary and advancement for luek krungs who stay in Kingdom then I think there is little doubt that the returns are pretty poor.

Bangkok International schools are charging fees equivelent to some of the most prestigous public (private) schools in the UK and yet the investment does not break the glass ceiling in Thailand.

But is education only about earning a better living? My view is that there is a lot more to it than simple training for a job.

It's not even just about education but also about what we can pass on to our children in terms of values and outlook.

Some will do well, some will flounder, but it is as much to do with the family and the child as it is with Thailand.

For the many who are on their second family, perhaps they might compare and contrast how each family did and if location had any real impact.

[Nawtilus]

Bill, last year I felt exactly the same about my son, he was 2 but turned 3 early in the year.

There was no way I wanted my little boy away from home. I hated school, I wanted to protect him, have him with us, have some fun for a few more years at home.

I started school back home at 5 I think from memory and i hated all my school life, also from memory. So wanting to lump that onto my son even 3 years before me was just not a consideration.

Then the missus talked me into it kind of, we have a great international school around the corner from home. I very very reluctantly sent him there, first day he was fine, first few days in fact he was fine. second week he was a mess.

Now, having this little boy at 4yo that loves school, loves going to school, talks about his friends and the stuff he learns, knows all the numbers, can write, can readm both Thai and english to varying degrees and even a little chinese. Socialises with his friends and just seems to enjoy it so much and is learning about the world.

If I had had my way, he would not have experienced this and would not be as far along as he is and when it comes time to go to grade 1, he would be way behind instead of way in front. Granted it means a long time in school, but thats life as a kid and I hope his experience is far better than mine, it already is so i hope it continues.

Because of his time at school, we then do a lot of other things together when he is home, weekends and after school etc, some of which may not be doing if he was home all the time.

Anyway, reconsider it, it worked for my boy. Our school did not have an option for half a day or 1 or 2 days a week only. It was all or nothing and that also I did not like, but we tried it. You should ask around for schools that do the 1 or 2 days a week etc and just see how it goes, build up his enthusiasm to go and it will be better for him than for you. Also the first wekk or so is really hard on everyone, specially me, I nearly took him out the first few days he was really upset, but relented and worked out fine.

[GuestHouse]

Every time Guesthouse writes one of his diatribes, I always find myself nodding along in agreement. You are right on the nose!

Perhaps 'diatribe' is't what you meant, but I nevertheless thank you for the vote of confidence.

----

As for years in school/education.

I've spent 26 years of my life in full time education, school/college/BEng/MSc, and that discounts going to university part time to learn Thai and other professional study.

Now if I can make an observation. Years ago we could predict trends in the UK five years ahead by looking what was happening in the US. I’m told some years earlier the gap would have been 10 years. Now days, what happens in the US almost immediately jumps across to the UK.

We see this happening in Thailand. Importantly the Thai economy needs to modernize (desperately so) and in doing so it is not going to go through the long haul of industry with jobs for life, it will jump straight in on the fast changing world of modern business.

Education is no longer a one off occasion, something we do when we are children. Education has become a continuing requirement, something to be kept up if we are to maintain our lead in the job market.

The important point of this is, young people need to be instilled with a respect for and an enthusiasm for education, they need that to be able to maintain interest in education.

Now, I hear a lot of people complaining about this, as if it is some degrading of modern lifestyles, but I’m not sure that it is.

Go along to any night school in the UK and you’ll find it full of people taking classes in all manner of things, some to get on in their jobs, some to explore a new area of life, some just for the challenge.

I find this lacking in Thai education, Thais, to my mind, take a far too utilitarian view of education, and I am afraid to say ‘qualifications’.

I think we (foreigners) have an advantage here, if that is we choose to take it. We have a heads-up on what is coming, we know the benefits of education and we know that outside of work it brings other rewards.

That then is something we can pass on but something that I am sure is not available locally. So, either pass it on, or watch your children miss out on it.

[fxm88]

If you bring your children up in Thailand are you limiting their future prospects?

I think it would depend on which kind of prospects we're talking about. In Thailand or outside of Thailand? What field of endeavor?

Some Thai people seem to find half-breeds more attractive. Attractiveness has been positively correlated with getting hired, salary, number of offspring, success in school, popularity and other measures of "success" (not to mention being inversly correlated with criminality). Do the Thais find the kids to be attractive? Or are they dark-skinned? For comparison, in America tanned is good but really black skin is almost as bad there as it is here.

Height is similarly correlated. Will the kids be tall compared to other Thais? Will they be short compared to farangs? Maybe they'll inherit that Thai slenderness.

Do they have a Thai name? Or a clearly farang name? Might their name be a detriment while e.g. submitting a resume for a job?

Will they be more or less discriminated against? In Thailand, for the entertainment industry it's clearly good to be farang. But how about a government/military job? I'm not sure what the law is now, but for a while I believe a Thai person's father had to have also been Thai in order to get a government job or attend certain schools. The law may have changed, but have actual attitudes and practices changed?

Thailand is class conscious. Is the Thai parent high-so or low-so? What class does that make foreigner parent? What class does that make the child?

Can happiness be a measure of success?

Primary school is Thailand is probably not a good option -- unless you're hoping your child will be a mindless factory drone -- so you're either paying for school or home-schooling (for those who did not care for their institutionalized learning facility I offer the alternative of Unschooling). In many countries (e.g. America, U.K.), unless somebody has gone to one of the top 10 or 20 universities it barely matters where they got their degree from (as long as they have one).

[Note: anything I've cited clearly has a Western bias -- but good luck finding similar info about Thai society.]

Edited August 25, 2006 by fxm88

[berries]

Some Thai people seem to find half-breeds more attractive. Attractiveness has been positively correlated with getting hired, salary, number of offspring, success in school, popularity and other measures of "success" (not to mention being inversly correlated with criminality). Do the Thais find the kids to be attractive? Or are they dark-skinned? For comparison, in America tanned is good but really black skin is almost as bad there as it is here.

Height is similarly correlated. Will the kids be tall compared to other Thais? Will they be short compared to farangs? Maybe they'll inherit that Thai slenderness.

And your point is what exactly?

Back to the actual topic:

By success I meant in financial terms - I thought that was clear. I am here on an expat package and enjoy the lifestyle that affords me. I am married to a Thai and I worry about staying here long term because a) I am concerned that it will limit my son's future prospects to Thailand (wheras I have the luxury of being able to work world wide) and If he does stay in Thailand he will be paid Thai wages which will afford him a much lower life style than the one he's grown up in. Of course there are opportunities for Thais to make enough money to have a good lifestyle, I just think that there are far fewer than there are in the West. I mean even if you don't have an actual profession in the UK, you can make a very good living. I remember nearly 10 years ago when I was at university working part time and earning 30,000 baht a month pocket money. That's probably more like 50,000 a month now - those opportunitites just don't exist here. Would you be happy with your kids working somewhere here for 300 baht a day? I know there's a different mentality in Thailand and kids are often dependent on their parents for much longer than they are in the west but perhaps that's partly because they have no other option but to be dependent. I want my children to have the same opportunities as I have had from a state education in the UK, nothing more. It's easy for us expats to think that our kids will be grateful to grow up in such a wonderful country, which I totally agree it is, but I think we sometimes forget that part of the reason it's so wonderful is because we're expats and that it actually looks quite different through Thai eyes.

[boogie]

By success I meant in financial terms - I thought that was clear. I am here on an expat package and enjoy the lifestyle that affords me. I am married to a Thai and I worry about staying here long term because a) I am concerned that it will limit my son's future prospects to Thailand (wheras I have the luxury of being able to work world wide) and If he does stay in Thailand he will be paid Thai wages which will afford him a much lower life style than the one he's grown up in. Of course there are opportunities for Thais to make enough money to have a good lifestyle, I just think that there are far fewer than there are in the West. I mean even if you don't have an actual profession in the UK, you can make a very good living. I remember nearly 10 years ago when I was at university working part time and earning 30,000 baht a month pocket money. That's probably more like 50,000 a month now - those opportunitites just don't exist here. Would you be happy with your kids working somewhere here for 300 baht a day? I know there's a different mentality in Thailand and kids are often dependent on their parents for much longer than they are in the west but perhaps that's partly because they have no other option but to be dependent. I want my children to have the same opportunities as I have had from a state education in the UK, nothing more. It's easy for us expats to think that our kids will be grateful to grow up in such a wonderful country, which I totally agree it is, but I think we sometimes forget that part of the reason it's so wonderful is because we're expats and that it actually looks quite different through Thai eyes.

I've been wondering exactly the same thing. We are thinking about moving to Thailand in a couple of years. The only thing that bothers me is what the impact on the children will be. I would have thought that, providing they can get a decent education ( and that's another story) that they would be ok. Why would your son be limited to a future inThailand ? My kids have Thai and U.K. passports and they are starting to grow up speaking Thai and English. Nowadays if you have the right qualifications you can work pretty much anywhere in the world that you want to. A UK passport alone gives you the right to work in the E.U. and growing up bi-lingual has advantages of it's own. That's what I am trying to convince myself anyway ! I would be interested to see what others thoughts are. The alternative is a state education in the UK. Would that really give them more advantage than being brought up in Thailand with a good education ? The problem I can see is getting that education in Thailand. I can't afford the prices of the high end International Schools, so I am trying to find out as much as possible about schools at the moment and will be checking out some again in November. The advantage I have at the moment is that, if we move, my children will only be young, approx 7 and 5 yrs old, so we would have time to make changes without impacting too much on their education.

[fxm88]

And your point is what exactly?

My point is that you should raise them wherever they have the best chance of being attractive i.e. the cool, popular kids. It's a far better indicator of their future prospects than education or anything else.

[boogie]

And your point is what exactly?

My point is that you should raise them wherever they have the best chance of being attractive i.e. the cool, popular kids. It's a far better indicator of their future prospects than education or anything else.

You've got to be joking

You mean tall, good looking, athletic, blonde..... seem to remember someone else had that theory before, herrenvolk or something !

[fxm88]

Would you be happy with your kids working somewhere here for 300 baht a day?

Is this about your happiness? Or your kid's happiness? Cause chances are he'll be more than happy earning 300 baht a day -- if his friends and neighbors are only making 200 baht a day.

[teej]

And your point is what exactly?

My point is that you should raise them wherever they have the best chance of being attractive i.e. the cool, popular kids. It's a far better indicator of their future prospects than education or anything else.

This comment is absolutely ridiculous. And by no means is the statement, "It's a far better indicator of their future prospects than education or anything else" true anywhere on this planet.... Yeah I'm sure Bill Gates and all of his Microsoft mates were the "cool kids" in school -- ha, right... try to go down a Forbes list of the wealthy and think if these people were the "popular" kids... I highly doubt that would be the case....

[berries]

My point is that you should raise them wherever they have the best chance of being attractive i.e. the cool, popular kids. It's a far better indicator of their future prospects than education or anything else.

I don't know what Bill Gates would think of that.

Is this about your happiness? Or your kid's happiness? Cause chances are he'll be more than happy earning 300 baht a day -- if his friends and neighbors are only making 200 baht a day.

You obviously didn't read my post. I am prepared to sacrifice my high standard of living in a country I love living in to ensure that my kids have the same opportunites that I have had. I see 'executive' jobs (for Thai nationals) advertised in the English language newspapers in Thailand offering salaries of 40 or 50 thousand baht - jobs that you'd get paid 40 or 50 thousand pounds a year for in the Uk, and I wonder how people can support families or have a decent standard of living on that kind of money. Yes living costs are lower here but in my experience they are not that dramatically so. To buy a modest family home in the suburbs your mortgage repayments are probably around 40,000 a month, the cheapest cars in Thailand cost around 12,000 a month, electricity is expensive, petrol seems to be going up every day, if you like western food it's more expensive here than at home, if you're not a Thai build your clothes are imported and therefore expensive, if you don't want your kids to choke on bits of metal you buy imported toys which cost a fortune . . . unless you adopt a Thai lifestyle then Bangkok is actually not a particulary cheap place to live.

[M&M]

I've lived in Thailand for almost 6 years now and, on the whole, have enjoyed all the (weird and) wonderful experiences.

However, since becoming a father - my son is 2 years old - my holiday attitude to life has changed greatly.

sadly my relationship did not work out and I am divorced. Planning next year to go to Australia and when my son is of school age, he will come to me for school and back here to TL in the holidays.

Even his Mother, a Thai, wants him educated outside of TL in an English speaking country. She is all for it. Luckily, after the messy divorce we've managed to find an even keel.

I know Thai's that go to Inter schools and universities do get a better break than most... but not much better. And for me it's a cultural thing. I don't want him being/feeling 100% Thai. I want him to know there is a big world out there and it'shis if he wants it.

Also, some neighbours of my ex-wife have apparently already started reffering to my son as Farang... they don't use his name, don't say "Oh here comes Matt"... It's "Here comes Farang". He's only 2 years old. Does he have to deal with that discrimination for his whole life... Growing up in Australia, a more multi-cultural country with a better edu. system I think better.

He will still have a Thai passport if he wants to come back!

Cheers...

M&M

Edited August 26, 2006 by M&M

[berries]

Not to mention International school fees - for the good ones (which I've still heard many teachers comment are not as good as many state schools in the Uk) you're talking over one million baht a year for one child. Even the low grade International schools, many of which are just glorified language schools, the fees are still 3 or 4 hundred thousand a year. And even if you can afford to send your child to one of these schools, how likely is it that their children will have the same opportunites? By marrying a Thai and making your life in Thailand, you could argue that we have bought into a culture that offers our families far less opprtunities than the cultures we come from? Most aspirational Thai families dream of sending their children to the UK or the States to study but those opportunities were our birth right so we don't value them. And while it's inarguable that there are thousands of horrendous state schools in the UK, if you're move was to take advantage of the education system, you would make your catchement area a priority.

[berries]

I don't want him being/feeling 100% Thai. I want him to know there is a big world out there and it'shis if he wants it.

Exactly!

[berries]

Yeah I'm sure Bill Gates and all of his Microsoft mates were the "cool kids" in school -- ha, right... try to go down a Forbes list of the wealthy and think if these people were the "popular" kids... I highly doubt that would be the case....

Teej - your post wasn't there when I wrote mine - we must have been posting at the same time . . . great minds and all that!

[boogie]

I don't want him being/feeling 100% Thai. I want him to know there is a big world out there and it'shis if he wants it.

Exactly!

Are you saying you would rather your children feel 100% a citizen of Australia or wherever else for that matter ? Surely they can feel part of both cultures. Anyway why can't someone feeling 100 % Thai know there is a big world out there ?

Do you really feel that a child can get a better education in Australian/UK state schools than anywhere in Thailand ? I don't know I ask this as a genuine question. I know all my wifes Thai friends say don't move to Thailand give your children an education in the U.K., but on the other hands my friends ( with children) from the UK say whatever do you want to come back here for !!

[fxm88]

I don't know what Bill Gates would think of that.

If you were as rich as Bill Gates' parents and grandfather were I suspect you wouldn't be too worried about all this: berries jr. would be enrolled in Eton at the earliest opportunity and you'd barely raise an eyebrow when he later drops out of Oxford. You might be mildly shocked when he is later arrested but certain that it was all in good fun.

[berries]

I don't know what Bill Gates would think of that.

If you were as rich as Bill Gates' parents and grandfather were I suspect you wouldn't be too worried about all this: berries jr. would be enrolled in Eton at the earliest opportunity and you'd barely raise an eyebrow when he later drops out of Oxford. You might be mildly shocked when he is later arrested but certain that it was all in good fun.

Having just seen your photograph in your member profile I now understand where all these feelings of inferiority come from - you poor thing.

[berries]

Has life been unfair to you fxm88? " If only I'd been taller, thinner, more handsome . . . . if only"

[berries]

Never mind, so long as you're earning 100 baht more a day than your neighbour - everything will be fine.

[fxm88]

Having just seen your photograph in your member profile I now understand where all these feelings of inferiority come from - you poor thing.

Has life been unfair to you fxm88? " If only I'd been taller, thinner, more handsome . . . . if only"

Resorting to personal attacks when your "logic" fails, eh? But yeah, you're right, that's why I moved to Thailand. What was your reason?

[berries]

Logic???? Most of the posts in this thread are questioning your logic. You make no sense man - go away.

[M&M]

I don't want him being/feeling 100% Thai. I want him to know there is a big world out there and it'shis if he wants it.

Exactly!

Are you saying you would rather your children feel 100% a citizen of Australia or wherever else for that matter ? Surely they can feel part of both cultures. Anyway why can't someone feeling 100 % Thai know there is a big world out there ?

Do you really feel that a child can get a better education in Australian/UK state schools than anywhere in Thailand ? I don't know I ask this as a genuine question. I know all my wifes Thai friends say don't move to Thailand give your children an education in the U.K., but on the other hands my friends ( with children) from the UK say whatever do you want to come back here for !!

No, you get me wrong... Australia for school, TL for holidays with his Mum... best of both worlds... and YES part of both cultures. And 2 languages, 2 passports and a whole world of opportunities!!

M&M

[berries]

You're taking a long time to retort. Have your thought processing skills deteriorated now that you've reached your twilight years? And we've got an audience. I can hear them all chanting 'fight! fight! fight!'