Greece drops key bailout demands, but Germany still objects

[Si Thea01]

Let the Communist government in Greece and the people who voted for it suffer the consequences.

Unfortunately the Greek people, not all Kostas, have the "Me, Me" mentality and to hell with everyone else. Yet despite what has happened they still voted for the reds. The same is happening in Australia, with the polls suggesting the conservative government is going to be a "one termer." Those who voted for Labor/Greens coalition in the last two elections will be just as sorry if they vote them in again, as the Lucky Country will be no more and the lefts will just continue spending until we go down, not the yellow brick road but the Greek road. Then those of us who have worked hard and never touched the government will suffer along with them. I just hope the people of both countries wake up to themselves but I think for Greece, it may be too late.

[green job]

Hawker9000 Ok yes maybe they have bank rolled Greece etc,,,, But the funds were created by 1, American investment (after WW2)

2. By Gastrbeiter,IE Greek , Turks Italians etc etc Germans do not like manual labour,as he is Spanish. ( not all,but most)

[hawker9000]

Hawker9000 Ok yes maybe they have bank rolled Greece etc,,,, But the funds were created by 1, American investment (after WW2)

2. By Gastrbeiter,IE Greek , Turks Italians etc etc Germans do not like manual labour,as he is Spanish. ( not all,but most)

You're totally missing the point! It doesn't matter at all WHO did the bankrolling, created the funds, whatever. It matters even less whether Germans like manual labor or not. And it certainly has nothing to do with WWII! What MATTERS is the Greeks did this to THEMSELVES. Trying to blame Germany or any other country is ludicrous. And the Greeks STILL haven't learned their lesson, continuing to reject the idea of austerity. They actually think they can INSIST the world pay for their own mistakes. If the Greeks want somebody to share the blame with, let them share it with the numbskulls who formulated the EU and the Eurozone, which is how the Greeks came by the rope they needed to hang themselves with.

[green job]

Hawker9000 Ok yes maybe they have bank rolled Greece etc,,,, But the funds were created by 1, American investment (after WW2)

2. By Gastrbeiter,IE Greek , Turks Italians etc etc Germans do not like manual labour,as he is Spanish. ( not all,but most)

You're totally missing the point! It doesn't matter at all WHO did the bankrolling, created the funds, whatever. It matters even less whether Germans like manual labor or not. And it certainly has nothing to do with WWII! What MATTERS is the Greeks did this to THEMSELVES. Trying to blame Germany or any other country is ludicrous. And the Greeks STILL haven't learned their lesson, continuing to reject the idea of austerity. They actually think they can INSIST the world pay for their own mistakes. If the Greeks want somebody to share the blame with, let them share it with the numbskulls who formulated the EU and the Eurozone, which is how the Greeks came by the rope they needed to hang themselves with.

Yes,I agree, At long last somone agrees that the EU is a shambles. No it does not matter who bank rolled them ( as you mentiond in your first mail,to which i answered)

Yes they have hung themselves, but being trapped in a financial and economic prison does not make it easy for them,or any country.

[daveAustin]

This guy has conformed like ALL politicians do when they get in. As much as I like the place and its people, admire its past and abhor superfluousness of EU, Greece needs to sort itself out and get 'back' to work!

[Scott]

A racist post has been removed.

[hawker9000]

Hawker9000 Ok yes maybe they have bank rolled Greece etc,,,, But the funds were created by 1, American investment (after WW2)

2. By Gastrbeiter,IE Greek , Turks Italians etc etc Germans do not like manual labour,as he is Spanish. ( not all,but most)

You're totally missing the point! It doesn't matter at all WHO did the bankrolling, created the funds, whatever. It matters even less whether Germans like manual labor or not. And it certainly has nothing to do with WWII! What MATTERS is the Greeks did this to THEMSELVES. Trying to blame Germany or any other country is ludicrous. And the Greeks STILL haven't learned their lesson, continuing to reject the idea of austerity. They actually think they can INSIST the world pay for their own mistakes. If the Greeks want somebody to share the blame with, let them share it with the numbskulls who formulated the EU and the Eurozone, which is how the Greeks came by the rope they needed to hang themselves with.

Yes,I agree, At long last somone agrees that the EU is a shambles. No it does not matter who bank rolled them ( as you mentiond in your first mail,to which i answered)

Yes they have hung themselves, but being trapped in a financial and economic prison does not make it easy for them,or any country.

Yes, but you see once socialism and statism take root and metastasize, nobody wants to work anymore, let alone be competitive or look for ways to excel or get ahead or increase their productivity or do much of anything except maybe agitate for ever increasing benefits, more programs, more "government solutions" - which ALL COST MONEY! Responsibility for all that now rests with the "government" (IOW, bureaucrats and the governing elite). The incentive goes right out of working. Once the middle class has been sucked dry, and the easy money begins to dry up, the fickle finger inevitably turns outward to the "greedy international moneylenders" who "got them in this mess" (Germany, that's your cue). And that's the predicament Greece finds itself in. Even more sadly, I think they're merely the first to implode like this...

If the EU were just a "shambles", that would be relatively benign compared to the evil it really does in providing some national economies with the ready means to destroy themselves, and all at the expense of those few that manage to maintain their values and their productivity. The Greece of today is far far removed from the Greece that gave the world democracy, philosophy, architecture, drama, art, science...

Edited February 22, 2015 by hawker9000

[KarenBravo]

Apple's market cap reached $400 billion, making Apple worth more than the economy of Greece, and liberals in Congress have proposed forgiving all student loans via “The Student Loan Forgiveness Act 2012,” costing taxpayers $1 trillion.And European finance ministers agreed in 2012 to create a permanent bailout fund for the euro zone with an effective firepower of almost €800 billion. And let us not forget the $303 trillion in derivatives that US taxpayers are now on the hook for. Google it. I did.

The only question is when the next multi-trillion (or perhaps quadrillion now that all global central banks are all in?) bailout takes place.

And so it goes. Small peanuts for Greece, eh?

Maybe Greece should apply for a corporate license instead of being a country, and tell Germany to shut the F up.

Countries cannot apply for bailouts. Corporations and banks and friends brothers and in-laws (FBI) can.

But Greece? Heavens no! Let's drag out all the dirty laundry on Greece and overlook all those scumbags mentioned in the beginning of my post. Let's hammer Greece for making a legitimate request and focusing the attention on something that no one wants to look at.

I've got no beef with Greece. I do respect them for having the toughness to stand up to all of this BS and ask for the same kind of help - to save a nation from crisis - that a whole bunch of lazy bums get to have for their failures to pay back their debts, and don't have to.

Wish you would get your facts straight.

Apple is valued at 754 billion.

[Lissos]

It seems that, as is the case elsewhere in Europe, the younger generations who, while admitedly would have grown up basking in the rays of sunlight from the good times that their families were enjoying at the time of the EU honeymoon, are now going to end up footing the bill of previous generation's unrealistic gluttony for their rest of 'their' lives and so are their children going to (if they can ever afford to have families, that is) along with generations after that who are going to be born 'into' debt which they have inherited.

It is this which Greeks are keenly aware of, from my experience of them this year. Being North European, it does frustrate me just as much as anyone else that 'rescue' water is poured continously into this southern bucket that has a huge hole in it because repeatedly doing so is not solving anything, only keeping a brain dead shell on an artificial life support system as both sides in thiis have an interest in doing so. Whatever choice the Greeks make now, is going to be the same - a dramatic steady decline in their standard of living. To be born into relative poverty and then grow up 'into' better times is one thing, but to have been born in good times and see that inch by inch be degraded is not acceptable to anyone, and people will vote for whoever will show signs of some empathy, even if voters practically know just under the surface that this hole just cannot be fixed.

[hawker9000]

Apple's market cap reached $400 billion, making Apple worth more than the economy of Greece, and liberals in Congress have proposed forgiving all student loans via “The Student Loan Forgiveness Act 2012,” costing taxpayers $1 trillion.And European finance ministers agreed in 2012 to create a permanent bailout fund for the euro zone with an effective firepower of almost €800 billion. And let us not forget the $303 trillion in derivatives that US taxpayers are now on the hook for. Google it. I did.

The only question is when the next multi-trillion (or perhaps quadrillion now that all global central banks are all in?) bailout takes place.

And so it goes. Small peanuts for Greece, eh?

Maybe Greece should apply for a corporate license instead of being a country, and tell Germany to shut the F up.

Countries cannot apply for bailouts. Corporations and banks and friends brothers and in-laws (FBI) can.

But Greece? Heavens no! Let's drag out all the dirty laundry on Greece and overlook all those scumbags mentioned in the beginning of my post. Let's hammer Greece for making a legitimate request and focusing the attention on something that no one wants to look at.

I've got no beef with Greece. I do respect them for having the toughness to stand up to all of this BS and ask for the same kind of help - to save a nation from crisis - that a whole bunch of lazy bums get to have for their failures to pay back their debts, and don't have to.

Great idea! And while we're at it, I'd like to have my mortgage loan forgiven. And my neighbors would, too. Oh, and my family and friends. Oh, and my co-workers. And then, a trifling million each would be nice. Now that last is the only thing we haven't worked for, but hey, if it's OK for the Greeks, it should be OK for us. Oh wait, somebody must o' heard me. 350million others here in the U.S. would like that all that national debt you mentioned just forgiven.

And as soon as we've done all that, why not just start the whole thing all over again? Should I be able to go out and buy a new house, take out a mortgage for it, and then just tell my lender it's just "peanuts", give him your song & dance about Apple market cap & loony spending programs from Obama and his wingnuts in Congress, and so just shut the F up?

Where does your logic end exactly? And anyway. Apple's got nothing to do with it. The U.S. has nothing to do with it. You need to take it up with Germany, who seems to have grown weary of carrying this chronically overspent Greece on its back. I actually think many Greeks, even the majority of Greeks, share the arrogance of your perspective, and so deserve what's coming. Choices have consequences. 'Don't see why Germany should have to bear the consequences of Greece's decisions.

[KarenBravo]

The root problem was the spend, spend spend attitude of the Greek politicians to ensure votes, whilst at the same time, kicking the can of how to finance it all down the road for the next politician.

Repeat a few times and we arrive at where we are now.

[Lissos]

Choices have consequences. 'Don't see why Germany should have to bear the consequences of Greece's decisions.

Agreed, and it's not just Germany that will be footing the bill within Europe. It will be streams of money pouring in from multiple directions within Europe, without direct knowledge or consent of locals. However, realistically the kind of debt we're talking about that has to be payed off, won't be, to the last cent as everyone knows it is going to be a generational debt, and only the generation who fully and knowingly basked in the sun of the good times could ever be convinced (a struggle, at that) to take on the chin penance in various forms of austerity. Other generations will not accept the burden and will deeply resent spending their entire lives and that of future generations, paying for the gluttony of previous generations who did so either with full knowledge it was unsustainable or were busy enjoying the ride to notice they'd be convinced to join a fun train that was heading for a cliff. I don't know what the answer is to all this, but I think we have to be realistic here that future generations of Greeks will NOT accept this burden.

[MAJIC]

Apple's market cap reached $400 billion, making Apple worth more than the economy of Greece, and liberals in Congress have proposed forgiving all student loans via “The Student Loan Forgiveness Act 2012,” costing taxpayers $1 trillion.And European finance ministers agreed in 2012 to create a permanent bailout fund for the euro zone with an effective firepower of almost €800 billion. And let us not forget the $303 trillion in derivatives that US taxpayers are now on the hook for. Google it. I did.

The only question is when the next multi-trillion (or perhaps quadrillion now that all global central banks are all in?) bailout takes place.

And so it goes. Small peanuts for Greece, eh?

Maybe Greece should apply for a corporate license instead of being a country, and tell Germany to shut the F up.

Countries cannot apply for bailouts. Corporations and banks and friends brothers and in-laws (FBI) can.

But Greece? Heavens no! Let's drag out all the dirty laundry on Greece and overlook all those scumbags mentioned in the beginning of my post. Let's hammer Greece for making a legitimate request and focusing the attention on something that no one wants to look at.

I've got no beef with Greece. I do respect them for having the toughness to stand up to all of this BS and ask for the same kind of help - to save a nation from crisis - that a whole bunch of lazy bums get to have for their failures to pay back their debts, and don't have to.

Greece can afford to be tough,they have everything to gain and nothing to lose,it's other members money they are spending,same as last time!

Welcome to Greek Poker,the game where no stake is necessary!

[hawker9000]

Choices have consequences. 'Don't see why Germany should have to bear the consequences of Greece's decisions.

Agreed, and it's not just Germany that will be footing the bill within Europe. It will be streams of money pouring in from multiple directions within Europe, without direct knowledge or consent of locals. However, realistically the kind of debt we're talking about that has to be payed off, won't be, to the last cent as everyone knows it is going to be a generational debt, and only the generation who fully and knowingly basked in the sun of the good times could ever be convinced (a struggle, at that) to take on the chin penance in various forms of austerity. Other generations will not accept the burden and will deeply resent spending their entire lives and that of future generations, paying for the gluttony of previous generations who did so either with full knowledge it was unsustainable or were busy enjoying the ride to notice they'd be convinced to join a fun train that was heading for a cliff. I don't know what the answer is to all this, but I think we have to be realistic here that future generations of Greeks will NOT accept this burden.

And unless other countries bail them out, what choice would they have but to accept it? Are you talking about default? Just refuse to pay off the debt? Yeap. That's an option. But if Greece does that (and it may), there'll be some nasty fallout, and a "burden", for the next generation or two (at least), trust me... The pain might take any one of a number of different forms, but they'll be feeling it. Even if Greece does NOT go down the outright default road, it seems likely the debt will have to be written down to SOME degree ... which will mean a little pain to go around. But the argument that future generations of Greeks aren't going to "accept" the burden, as if they have some choice in the matter, is non-persuasive and not something that will influence the outcome here.

It's totally unrealistic - a progressivist fantasy really - to say that national debt can't be dropped in the laps of future generations. Here in the U.S., it's certainly going to happen, and the next few generations definitely ARE going to have to deal with it, and it won't be nice. 'No escaping it. Other countries, too. Greece is no exception.

Edited February 22, 2015 by hawker9000

[Lissos]

Are you talking about default? Just refuse to pay off the debt? Yeap. That's an option. But if Greece does that (and it may), there'll be some nasty fallout, and a "burden", for the next generation or two (at least), trust me...

Certainly, but I think the core difference will be (as far as Greeks will see it) that any domestic fallout from a default is more likely (perhaps) to be taken responsibility for by Greeks. In other words, they may be more prepared to buck their ideas up and change their mindset about taxation and spending after such a move. Currently they perceive the austerity situation as them being held in a holding cell by a 'foreign entity', and future generations will too. Germany will be perceived as the 'great oppressor', as it already is in some circles within Greece. The fact that Greece was living it up and fully onboard when the going was good within the European project, will soon be deemed irrelevant and is already being forgotten.

But the argument that future generations of Greeks aren't going to "accept" the burden, as if they have some choice in the matter, is non-persuasive and not something that will influence the outcome here. It's totally unrealistic - a progressivist fantasy really - to say that national debt can't be dropped in the laps of future generations. Here in the U.S., it's certainly going to happen, and the next few generations definitely ARE going to have to deal with it, and it won't be nice. 'No escaping it. Other countries, too. Greece is no exception.

I agree that there is no escape from decades of dire economic life no matter what route they take. I just suspect that the reception to it could be different based on the two scenarios it arises from. I may be wrong, and as you say, it is actually something we're all living with also here in Europe that current and future young generations are going to end up paying the price in so many ways now that the honeymoon appears to be over.

We already see it and experience it. When a wounded dog can go off into a corner and lick its wounds in peace after a rough fight though, it always be deemed as far worse if it is wounded but also being held in a holding pen by a foreign Government. The fallout effect I haven't mentioned of course, is that upon the rest of Europe and the rest of Europe's reaction if Greece does default. If the domestic uproar in Northern Europe would be as nasty as I suspect it will become in Greece if it is held with a gun at its head for decades to come by Germany and others, I don't know.

[hawker9000]

Are you talking about default? Just refuse to pay off the debt? Yeap. That's an option. But if Greece does that (and it may), there'll be some nasty fallout, and a "burden", for the next generation or two (at least), trust me...

Certainly, but I think the core difference will be (as far as Greeks will see it) that any domestic fallout from a default is more likely (perhaps) to be taken responsibility for by Greeks. In other words, they may be more prepared to buck their ideas up and change their mindset about taxation and spending after such a move. Currently they perceive the austerity situation as them being held in a holding cell by a 'foreign entity', and future generations will too. Germany will be perceived as the 'great oppressor', as it already is in some circles within Greece. The fact that Greece was living it up and fully onboard when the going was good within the European project, will soon be deemed irrelevant and is already being forgotten.

But the argument that future generations of Greeks aren't going to "accept" the burden, as if they have some choice in the matter, is non-persuasive and not something that will influence the outcome here. It's totally unrealistic - a progressivist fantasy really - to say that national debt can't be dropped in the laps of future generations. Here in the U.S., it's certainly going to happen, and the next few generations definitely ARE going to have to deal with it, and it won't be nice. 'No escaping it. Other countries, too. Greece is no exception.

I agree that there is no escape from decades of dire economic life no matter what route they take. I just suspect that the reception to it could be different based on the two scenarios it arises from. I may be wrong, and as you say, it is actually something we're all living with also here in Europe that current and future young generations are going to end up paying the price in so many ways now that the honeymoon appears to be over.

We already see it and experience it. When a wounded dog can go off into a corner and lick its wounds in peace after a rough fight though, it always be deemed as far worse if it is wounded but also being held in a holding pen by a foreign Government. The fallout effect I haven't mentioned of course, is that upon the rest of Europe and the rest of Europe's reaction if Greece does default. If the domestic uproar in Northern Europe would be as nasty as I suspect it will become in Greece if it is held with a gun at its head for decades to come by Germany and others, I don't know.

I'm not an expert in the ways & means by which all the money was actually lent, and I'll be accused of 20-20 hindsight, but I can't help but think that there had to be some bad business practice in lending SO much money SO freely to the Greeks that there's almost NO chance they could pay it back, even if the national will were there. If that's the case, then one might say there should be some pain for the lenders as well. But the thing is, this will translate to pain for the man in the street, and he had nothing to do with, and little awareness of, the process, whatever it was.

So we have the average Greek, voting for decades for the governments providing this unsustainable standard of living, and enjoying the benefits from it. And citizens of the donor countries who neither benefited from it nor knew much, if anything about it and had no say in the decision-making. Whose children & grandchildren should more rightly be the ones to bear the burden for the debacle? Should those of the former be excused from an imposed austerity while those of the latter pay the bill and ante up FOR them instead? If you ask me, THAT'S something future generations will refuse to accept! IMO, future Greeks will be much better off, much happier in the long run, and certainly much more free, learning the hard lesson now and being motivated from personal experience to avoid making such expensive mistakes ever again. (And in a perfect world, citizens of other countries would learn from them as well, and not have to make the same mistakes themselves...)

But socialist-minded governments are quite adept at concealing these things I suppose. Their considerable expertise in deception vs the amount of pain people can take before they get wise.