Hilltribes In Chiang Rai

[Mymechew]

Living in Chiang Rai many of us have had some kind of interaction with hilltribes - the major tourist attraction here. Through work or volunteering, personal relationships, supporting lunches at a school, sponsoring a student or an event, the Night Market, etc.

Without mentioning or promoting any specific project or organization – what’s been your experience? What impression do you have of their situation?

Mymechew

[tayto]

Living in Chiang Rai many of us have had some kind of interaction with hilltribes - the major tourist attraction here. Through work or volunteering, personal relationships, supporting lunches at a school, sponsoring a student or an event, the Night Market, etc.

Without mentioning or promoting any specific project or organization – what’s been your experience? What impression do you have of their situation?

Mymechew

The hilltribe people of Thailand deserve a lot more help than they are getting.

Many are neglected by the government, getting no education, getting no medical care and in many cases cannot even get I.D . Many are restricted from travelling, even going to university, they have to get special permission to travel.

Then they are // insulting language removed // and hold basic necessities from them unless they conform to the various religions.

Many websites, some very controversial, have been devoted to this , notably

// website removed// which is well worth looking at.

Tayto, pending a discussion with the other moderators I have put you on seven days moderator preview for the time being. The OP asks for a serious response, not for the kind of mud-slinging that obscures the discussion.

Limbo

Edited August 27, 2006 by Limbo

[mumbojumbo]

Living in Chiang Rai many of us have had some kind of interaction with hilltribes - the major tourist attraction here. Through work or volunteering, personal relationships, supporting lunches at a school, sponsoring a student or an event, the Night Market, etc.

Without mentioning or promoting any specific project or organization – what’s been your experience? What impression do you have of their situation?

Mymechew

I think it is dispikable (sp) that 2nd and 3rd generation, born in Thailand have to apply for an ID at the local umpher offices for years, to become a citizen of this country. The Queen Mother stepped up this process, or it would really be in the dark ages. I hope it will be esclated soon.

Edited August 27, 2006 by mumbojumbo

[Mymechew]

Living in Chiang Rai many of us have had some kind of interaction with hilltribes - the major tourist attraction here. Through work or volunteering, personal relationships, supporting lunches at a school, sponsoring a student or an event, the Night Market, etc.

Without mentioning or promoting any specific project or organization – what’s been your experience? What impression do you have of their situation?

Mymechew

I think it is dispikable (sp) that 2nd and 3rd generation, born in Thailand have to apply for an ID at the local umpher offices for years, to become a citizen of this country. The Queen Mother stepped up this process, or it would really be in the dark ages. I hope it will be esclated soon.

Mumbojumbo is right. The Queen Mother and others since her (including Chiang Rai’s outgoing senator) have done a lot to make the citizenship process more legitimate. It still takes a ridiculous amount of time for applications to work their way through the system in Bangkok. I’m sure everyone will be surprised to learn that even after the approval is returned to the local Amphur from Bangkok there are some hefty fees that must be paid before the village headman signs off and the Amphur releases the new ID.

In a village not too far from the city more than 20 villagers’ applications have been approved after a 3- year wait but won’t be released until the headman signs his name – and this won’t happen until each individual applicant comes up with 10,500 baht. I guess somebody needs a new truck.

Mymechew

[gerry1011]

Having had different experiences with hill tribes' youngsters as well as thais in community projects, there are a few things I can say:

The hill tribes people have to "fight for life" since the day there are born.

This does not make them more intelligent than anyone else, but it makes them quicker than the Thais to grab an opportunity whenever they can.

The fact that, in their life, they can rely only on themselves make them smart in finding solutions and quicker to react than, let's say the "middle class" young Thais.

So, we have smart people who want to grab every opportunity they can... Imagine how good they can be if they receive a high standard education.

A lot more could be said...

[Joel Barlow]

With only a green card, hill-tribe peopel cannot even change money at banks.

PM Taksin spoke at Sammakkhi Wittayakhom highschool recently, I heard, and promised to grant all citizenship and give them land too. I expect most will know what to think of that.

The different groups are indeed different, but generalities not worth much.

That place out by Ban Pa-O (on the way to Mae Jan) reeks of human zoo - I understand having the Long-neck people there is actually illegal (and it should be).

Chiang Rai as a resort and tribals as tourist attractions. Great.

[Chiang Rai Guy]

A few technicalities, and by no mean a criticism. Firstly I agree with what you all say. An unfair battle against unfair people in the beaurocratic system. The Princess Mother (she was never queen) did make a considerable effort to make the process of citzenship legit, albeit the Thai government doesn't seem to remember this. Or they just have a slow memory.

Another thought comes to mind, however. Doesn't it seem like a Hill Tribe is just a garden variety word for the many "ethnic minorities" living in the mountains of Thailand? I'm not trying to be totally pc about this, but it does seem a little naive to just throw a bunch of people living in the hill into one convenient term, when actually it really is a mixed salad. If I were Mien, I wouldn't have the same culture or traditions as say Akkha, and I wouldn't necessarily want to be called khon doi like everyone else.

Hill tribe just seems a bit nasty to me. Does anyone understand this thought?

[buddhafly]

missionaries eliminate traditions and destroy the culture of hilltribes.

[Chiang Rai Guy]

missionaries eliminate traditions and destroy the culture of hilltribes.

Where would these godless heathens be without missionaries!?

Edited August 28, 2006 by Chiang Rai Guy

[mumbojumbo]

Hill tribe just seems a bit nasty to me. Does anyone understand this thought?

And what would you call them- a diverse people of many different ethnic backrounds and beliefs that are colorfuly dressed that just happen to live mainly in the mountains and are bait for missionaries-hilltribe people is much easier and everyone understands the term.

[Chiang Rai Guy]

I don't mean to be PC, like I said. I just think it's a little deroatory, especially when they can be hearded together for tourist purposes, and like Joel said, that human zoo they established only for tourist purposes (before MFU), when in fact they each have distinct cultures and traditions, missionary conversions aside.

I don't want to sound adamant or argue about it. BUT I do think it's worth mentioning. I admit to using the term hilltribe myself. I just want to see what others think of this issue. Many of the people are proud of who they are, so isn't throwing them into a general category of people a little belittling?

I don't claim to know the answers, by the way. I just want to see what can come out of this topic, or is it off topic? Mymechew? Mr. Moderator? I leave it to you.

CRG

[Limbo]

missionaries eliminate traditions and destroy the culture of hilltribes.

Maybe the expression is inappropriate to use in this case, but let me be the Devil's advocate.

My thesis is: the statement of Buddhafly is not true.

The cultures of the different ethnic minorities are getting more and more estranged from their actual way of life, their vital conditions. Their 'splendid isolation' as the British would call it, doesn't exist anymore and so their way of life changes and their culture becomes vulnerable.

If you look at the structures of a society, the 'layers', you could distinguish an ecological, economical, social, cultural and a cosmological structure.

All these structures are interrelated and together they define a society (and their function is to maintain the cohesion and stability of it).

If suddenly big changes occur in one of the structures the others will sooner or later adjust to these changes.

In the cultural layer things come together, the culture is a system of values, norms, habits, rules and other collective agreements about how good things are the way they are.

The cosmological layer (beliefsystems and religion) confirms that things should be the way they are.

As the cultures and beliefsystems of the ethnic minorities not seem to be able to survive as their goground is plowed (culture, couter, actually meaning plow) in other patterns, the same thing will happen that happened to the Indians in America and the Same in northern Europe.

They will slowly but sure over some generations be replaced by beliefsystems which better fit the new circumstances.

So there is a new niche in the market, and representatives of several religions, mostly Christians jump into it.

The changes are not brought by missionaries. The changes (causing wandering souls, but also including access to internet, satellites, good cheese, burrito's, western food, good roads and comfort in general) brought missionaries.

Limbo

[Chiang Rai Guy]

Well said, Limbo. Interesting you use "ethnic minority" as well, which in itself is a garden variety term for those who are not white, (unless the dutch really aren't white ). (I claim no authority on the subject) Don't get me wrong here, but I tend to think a lot of the "roads to civilization" as it were, were due in part to missionary efforts. I'm not saying I like missionaries, nor do i like the fact that the inevitable takes place over periods of time (if not the missionaries the the Thai) but what groundwork is being layed to support the preservation of their cultures/heritage/customs/traditions?

Fortunately there are a few good ngo's which are Thai run and farang supported which have done this, however mixing traditions at the same time. The idea, I guess is to restore that which has been slowly fading and mix it with a modern twist. The Mirror Art Group comes to mind. They seem to be doing something quite unique while maintaining some self preservation.

CRG

Edited August 28, 2006 by Chiang Rai Guy

[Chiang Rai Guy]

As a side note to the discussion, in Laos PDR no one is cosidered hill tribe or ethnic minority. They are all Laos citizens. Eat it Thailand!

Edited August 28, 2006 by Chiang Rai Guy

[Mymechew]

A few technicalities, and by no mean a criticism. Firstly I agree with what you all say. An unfair battle against unfair people in the beaurocratic system. The Princess Mother (she was never queen) did make a considerable effort to make the process of citzenship legit, albeit the Thai government doesn't seem to remember this. Or they just have a slow memory.

Another thought comes to mind, however. Doesn't it seem like a Hill Tribe is just a garden variety word for the many "ethnic minorities" living in the mountains of Thailand? I'm not trying to be totally pc about this, but it does seem a little naive to just throw a bunch of people living in the hill into one convenient term, when actually it really is a mixed salad. If I were Mien, I wouldn't have the same culture or traditions as say Akkha, and I wouldn't necessarily want to be called khon doi like everyone else.

Hill tribe just seems a bit nasty to me. Does anyone understand this thought?

CRG

I understand the concept and have often hesitated when using this word but as MJ said what is an appropriate alternative term? In the USA they use the PC term “native-Americans” (or Indians) to refer to people from a wide variety of distinct tribes and cultures or “African-Americans” for those whose original ancestries are incredibly diverse. The same can be said for the terms European, Asian, African, etc – and of course our favorite term: Farang

When speaking with members of the various ethnic minorities in Chiang Rai reference is made to the specific name of the tribe you are discussing – just as when talking to a European you would likely specify French, Germans, Dutch, etc.

Mymechew

[In the Rai!]

CRG

I understand the concept and have often hesitated when using this word but as MJ said what is an appropriate alternative term? In the USA they use the PC term “native-Americans” (or Indians) to refer to people from a wide variety of distinct tribes and cultures or “African-Americans” for those whose original ancestries are incredibly diverse. The same can be said for the terms European, Asian, African, etc – and of course our favorite term: Farang

When speaking with members of the various ethnic minorities in Chiang Rai reference is made to the specific name of the tribe you are discussing – just as when talking to a European you would likely specify French, Germans, Dutch, etc.

Mymechew

I agree Mymechew,

There are many tourists who come only for 1 week or even a few days that know nothing about the different tribes, cultures etc. The problem is I feel so few of us living here know so little about the differnt cultural backgrounds myself included. I however am trying to learn more about this but it is not something you can learn over night.

IMO the term "hill tribe people" is the equivelent of Thais calling us "farang" a general term used to describe caucasians because they dont know exactly where they are from eg America, Australia, England, Holland etc but we are all white. Once they know us they then refer to us as American or Fench etc. I think it is the same as this term "hill Tribe People" at first it is just a general term but once you know them or know of their background then we will start referring to them (that particular person) as Akkar etc.

Just my opinion

In The Rai!

[buddhafly]

what i meant by saying that missionaries destroy culture and eliminate traditions wasn't in reference to the normal evolution of societies based on ooutside influences...

what i was referring to is that when missionaries forbid, for example the akha, from singing thier traditional songs and carrying on dances etc because it doesnt fit the christian plan. they aim to separate them from being akha. do your research, you'll see its true.

there is a tribe in indonesia that missionaries stopped them from weaving thier traditional pattern because it has some ornamentation that represented thier religion/culture and not some arrogant christians idea.

missionaries are exactly this: arrogant. it is nothing but arrogance to believe that ones' religion is superior to another. and it is horrible to remove someones culture and replace it with your own.

oooh i'm all spiced up now!

[Chiang Rai Guy]

it is horrible to remove someones culture and replace it with your own.

oooh i'm all spiced up now!

Dam_n! You've foiled my master plan.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Chiang Rai Guy

[svenivan]

missionaries are exactly this: arrogant. it is nothing but arrogance to believe that ones' religion is superior to another. and it is horrible to remove someones culture and replace it with your own.

Missionaries suck!!

[OneeyedJohn]

Ah Ha....I saw that one coming a mile off

[erg]

Nice topic

Yes the hilltribes need a topic here, and i agree with most posters.

Gerry said:

The hill tribes people have to "fight for life" since the day there are born.

This does not make them more intelligent than anyone else, but it makes them quicker than the Thais to grab an opportunity whenever they can.

The fact that, in their life, they can rely only on themselves make them smart in finding solutions and quicker to react than, let's say the "middle class" young Thais.

I do agree on this, most of them are emotional stronger, a few years ago my Akha wife and me went to Big C, and i wanted to buy some coffee wich i couldnt find, i told my wife to ask those two boys who were obviously working there, but i saw she didnt want to ask, i told her to ask (as i didnt speak Thai then) when she asked, the boys looked at her, looked at me, and turned around and acted as if she was not there.

My wife walked away as if nothing happened, she told me later not all Thai like hilltribe, esspecially when they date a farang, for them, a hilltribe dating a farang is a h.....

I withnessed trhue the years loads of those discriminating things.

I guess every culture discriminates, so its nothing special, except personaly i never had to experience it back "home".

Ps reading this post back, it lookes as if i speak Thai now.

[tayto]

missionaries are exactly this: arrogant. it is nothing but arrogance to believe that ones' religion is superior to another. and it is horrible to remove someones culture and replace it with your own.

//sentence removed//

Gerry and Erg are 100% correct.

Thai people do not like hilltribes or khun doi and missionaries exploit them.

They make fun of them and even the kids are taught that a stupid person is a hill tribe .They make jokes that someone who doesn't know something is a Khun Lao, khun Pama or khun Doi.

Recently I had to take a hilltribe person to Chiang Rai hospital.

She was ignored, insulted and though a private patient who was paying, she wasn't allowed to see the doctor because she forgot to bring a hospital card.

I agree that there are 1 or 2 missionary groups in northern Thailand that are doing a good job but unfortunitly most of them are opportunists that are taking advantage of hill tribe people.

They raise funds on the pretext of helping these people but really they are only lining their own pockets.

You only have to look around you at all the big houses and nice cars that they have.

I have been prohibited from posting websites //please Tayto, see the forum rules// that give a lot of information about this but if anyone would like some, please pm me.

To Tayto and others who wants to discuss moderating issues: Please PM me!

Limbo I am happy that Tayto agrees that there are missionary groups doing a good job. I hope also that he soon will notice that certainly not all Thai people discriminate people from the ethnic minorities.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Limbo

[Joel Barlow]

When our Dear CEO spoke at Sammakkhi highschool a couple weeks ago, maybe he didn't lie.

At Amphoe MaeFaLuang this morning, my wife was told she may have citizenship in 2 months.

Her family will also get it a little later, despite that her mother has no Thai language

(Erq finds it hard to believe that I'm beginning to understand her, but its true!).

I don't really know what progress is - am hardly a materialist.

Trade, I'm sure, can be good (it's how I make what little money I have!)

But assumption of cultural, or social, superiority, of course s#*ks

On the other hand, personal superiority....

[Chiang Rai Guy]

It seems very conveniten that the Mae Fah Luang area would get first dibs. After all this is a major royal project taking place there. Let's hope that it extends to the rest of the nation as quickly.

[Mymechew]

I suggested not mentioning or promoting any particular project or organization because for as many people who might like one group there is likely to be an equal or greater number who don’t. Also, It’s been my experience that for every good person or group around here helping hilltribes there are five others exploiting them – including some leaders of their own tribe, tour operators and the government.

Overall, I hold the same negative opinion about the impact that many of the fundamentalist Christian groups have had on hilltribes. I find their “mission” seems to have less to do with spirituality than it does with more tangible objectives such as raising money (for large buildings, 4WD trucks, etc.), counting the number of new converts and church plantings. Rarely do village converts have any real understanding of the basic tenets of Christianity but can readily recite Bible passages.

Some of the earlier converts who are now middle-aged tribal leaders have admitted to having mixed feelings about their experience after “finding Jesus”. They are grateful for the opportunity to obtain an education but wonder about the price they paid in terms of losing out on village life and culture. Most of them were sent to Christian group homes at the age of 7 years old and were not allowed to return home until they finished high school.

On the other hand, early Christian missionaries did build many excellent high schools, universities and hospitals.

Then consider what the government has done in the past by burning villages to make way for private development, ridiculing the hilltribe culture and destroying the tradition of elder respect and story telling to younger generations. Or, the impact tourism has had on villages – all in the name of progress and economic development.

I think Limbo’s comments have merit. Since the beginning of time this has happened to populations who have become minorities. The catalyst might be different but the result is always the same. Like it or not, fair or not – change happens. Is it better to ignore the inevitable by holding on to some romantic notion that the hilltribes can return to their traditional lifestyle – and risk the culture disappearing completely? Or does it make more sense to help them acquire the tools they need to succeed in modern society thereby allowing them the opportunity to preserve some of their cultural traditions?

Mymechew

[Johpa]

missionaries eliminate traditions and destroy the culture of hilltribes.

Maybe the expression is inappropriate to use in this case, but let me be the Devil's advocate.

My thesis is: the statement of Buddhafly is not true.

The cultures of the different ethnic minorities are getting more and more estranged from their actual way of life, their vital conditions. Their 'splendid isolation' as the British would call it, doesn't exist anymore and so their way of life changes and their culture becomes vulnerable.

If you look at the structures of a society, the 'layers', you could distinguish an ecological, economical, social, cultural and a cosmological structure.

All these structures are interrelated and together they define a society (and their function is to maintain the cohesion and stability of it).

If suddenly big changes occur in one of the structures the others will sooner or later adjust to these changes.

In the cultural layer things come together, the culture is a system of values, norms, habits, rules and other collective agreements about how good things are the way they are.

The cosmological layer (beliefsystems and religion) confirms that things should be the way they are.

As the cultures and beliefsystems of the ethnic minorities not seem to be able to survive as their goground is plowed (culture, couter, actually meaning plow) in other patterns, the same thing will happen that happened to the Indians in America and the Same in northern Europe.

They will slowly but sure over some generations be replaced by beliefsystems which better fit the new circumstances.

So there is a new niche in the market, and representatives of several religions, mostly Christians jump into it.

The changes are not brought by missionaries. The changes (causing wandering souls, but also including access to internet, satellites, good cheese, burrito's, western food, good roads and comfort in general) brought missionaries.

Limbo

As one who has been married into a heathen hill tribe family for nearly 20 years, I think you have some good points in that it is not only the missionaries who create change. But at the same time, missionaries can and do precede the modern world and do indeed initiate change in the cultures, but not always with success.

The wife's family are Karen. Although my wife's folks practice that old time religion, most of their peers practice one persuasion of Christianity or another, and these beliefs date back several generations to British rule in Burma. But until the past two decades, apart from the religious beliefs, there was little change in the other aspects of the culture. But with little to keep the young in the villages, with many kids attending government schools closer to the cities, the young are drifting away from tradition. The Karen are indigenous to Southeast Asia so I believe the Karen in Thailand will continue to slowly assimilate more easily towards Thai culture than some of the other minorities and eventually be co-opted by Thai culture as were many of the other indigenous folks up in the hills such as the Lawa and the K'mu. The Karen in Burma, on the contrary, will probably maintain a separate identity from the Burmese for the forseeable future as they have the numbers to be more cohesive. What is sort of funny at my in-laws is that when the prayers to Jesus of the neighbors go unheeded, they often sneak up at night to my father-inlaw for some of that old time animistic religion that he practices.

Despite years of Chrisitian proselytization, I have not seen many impacts upon the more recent, in relative terms, arrivals from China such as the Mong and Mien, both of whom are closer to Chinese culture than to traditional Southeast Asian culture. I find their villages to combine both traditional elements (including polygamy) and modern elements. I am friends with far more Mong than Mien, but my observations are that most Mong marry within the group, even going so far as to travel to the US to find Mong brides. For whatever reason, the Mong maintain a stronger sense of cultural pride than do some of the others. Modernity has not influenced, in all cases, the traditional belief systems of many a Mong village where one can still find Mong Shamans doing their visions of sympathetic magic. So change towards modernity does not mandate that traditional beliefs and world views become obsolete.

I find more impacts from Christian missionaries upon the poorer ethnic groups such as the Lahu and the Akha. (By the way, some of you might not remember the days when Lahu was the lingua franca north of the Mae Kok river outside the cities.) It is from these groups that the newer evangelical Christian groups, mostly American, populate their "orphanages" and these are the missionaries that many of us despise. Again, it is the poorest of the poor in the hills, the Akha, whose culture in Thailand has been eviscerated by these neo-con bible thumpers. The result is young Akha folks who do not fit into Thai culture and also do not fit into their traditional village culture. In this case it is indeed the missionaries who cause the change more than modernity, although modernity does facilitate their comings and goings. These indeed are sudden big changes in the religious structure but other structures do not always adjust to these changes. The result is cultural chaos with lots of dysfunctional families, substance abuse, and prostitution. I will take the old school Catholic missionaries over the newer evangelicals any day of the week.

So in this case I agree with Limbo that it is the groups whose cultures are most vulnerable who will be most susceptible to cultural change suffering traumatic, and often times tragic changes to the culture's worldview, also known in the vernacular of the anthropologists as Weltanschauung. It is the poorest and most vulnerable (and some of you might not remember the days when the governor of Chiang Rai would send the local drunken village militias into Akha villages days before their harvest and transport the Akha back to the Burmese border sans belongings) who are most easily impacted in a negative manner, somtimes by modernity creeping into their villages, and sometimes by misguided Christians.

Sorry, I have ranted too long on a subject too complex for quick postings.

[unforgiven]

Living in Chiang Rai many of us have had some kind of interaction with hilltribes - the major tourist attraction here. Through work or volunteering, personal relationships, supporting lunches at a school, sponsoring a student or an event, the Night Market, etc.

Without mentioning or promoting any specific project or organization – what’s been your experience? What impression do you have of their situation?

Mymechew

I think it is dispikable (sp) that 2nd and 3rd generation, born in Thailand have to apply for an ID at the local umpher offices for years, to become a citizen of this country. The Queen Mother stepped up this process, or it would really be in the dark ages. I hope it will be esclated soon.

I'm Canadian , we have lots of experience supressing the natives.............it's the UN job to help these people........but the UN is a joke

[svenivan]

Mymechew and Johpa, good posts. Very interesting to read.

And Unforgiven, yes, you are right. Too much politics in UN. When someone wants to do something good then the big nations vote against and block it.

[erg]

Yes Mymechew and Johpa, good postings.

I think Jopha is wright, the vunarable will adapt first to any change.

But dont you guys think, that it is also a "problem" of modern times that young people do want to change to a money and nintendo culture, dont you think this is a worldwide change, were young people would like to live as the majority lives.

Cinemas, cars and office jobs.

I think to keep any culture in modern life is difficult anyway, i think the Thai lose a lot of there culture also, as most of the cultures world wide.

Yes its a shame we are gonna lose those beautifull cultures, and i would say if we are gonna lose those cultures, then please dont let them live by any book, esspecialy not the bible, wich i personaly see as the biggest lie in the world ever.

Raising a child religious, who cant make an adult dissision him or her self, to me is childabuse.

I know this topic is not about riligion, so i should be carefull, but i think the missio's are so woven into hilltribe life that you cant leave it out in this disscusion.

Question: why do missio's allways try to "save" souls among the vunarable and uneducated????

[little_muppet]

because uneducated are easy to believe in things. most educated are know how to think ... not eazy for misso to success their mission on educated ppl....

Edited September 2, 2006 by unknown_user