AyG Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 MD's in the usa die of an average age of 58 !!! rest of population 75 MD's know nothing about nutrician and they will never go tell you to go use some vitamins & minerals (not patentable, no comission) so you think those guys are anything else than DRUG pushers for big pharma ... war on cancer, now going 40 years and trillions in tax payers money ... cure found up to date: 0 they cut, irradiate or poison your body, good & bad cells and hope you will make it, most don't... and leave you terminal ill and bankrupt thank you doctor death I think your tin foil helmet may be on a bit too tight. Do you actually bother to check any of your facts before spewing them on Internet forums? Let's just take your first point: "MD's in the usa die of an average age of 58 !!! rest of population 75" It took me less than 30 seconds to find a relevant paper, namely "Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians" published in the American Journal of Preventative Medicine. Let me quote: "Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 for black) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals (70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6)." As the paper's authors conclude: "These findings should help to erase the myth of the unhealthy doctor." Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020591 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggt Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If you are worried about pests...Thailand is not the place for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Somtam Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Do any of these nasty things on the crops cause cancer ? The reason I ask is that nearly every week someone in the little Bans round here dies of cancer. Never told details but " So and so died from cancer in Ban Dai " " Can't get out for a beer tomorrow another funeral , lady died from cancer " Nearly every week. My biggest worry right now ( like kannot ) is how much if any of these unfriendly products go into the water table. Our water is pumped from deep beneath the ground but we are surrounded by rice fields. Same over here, it's always cancer (maleng) or diabetes (bao wahn). Makes me worry a little, I have had cancer some 20 years ago so I am more aware of it than other people I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harveyg Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 T_Dog, I see that rat poisoning practice along fields as well and it is very disturbing. Environmentally (which Thai's don't care about) it's dumb but it also inadvertently kills people's prized pets yet they don't seem to care about that either. And of course they all go out of their way to kill every single snake which would be excellent at controlling pests. When I was in California we enjoyed having a few gopher snakes around to prevent gophers from making dirt piles in lawns. That would never fly in Thailand. They would much rather kill all the snakes and use poisons. It's a different culture here. As kannot so eloquently said "the Thai answer to everything is throw a chemical on it". You learn that being out in the countryside. Farming in Thailand is a cycle of burning everything up, poisoning everything, and using chemicals to make things grow. I don't think people elsewhere know how bad it is here. I buy organic soymilk, but a lot of chemical laden crops are difficult to avoid. The Thai government recently recommended washing produce for 10 minutes. I can't imagine spending that much of my day, devoted to that. And even so, wonder about the chemicals and poisons on the inside. worry too whats in the water, I have an 80 metre well going through sandstone its drinkable and its been tested and has virtually nothing in it no iron cadmium zinc lead ph6.5 test cost quite a lot to do but was worth it, tested in BKK I'm having occasional skin problems that go away when I go stateside and I've had some rudimentary notions that it's the water here in LOS. I'd like to test not only the water from my filtered house water but find some way to test the water in various food items. By the way, a colleague science teacher of mine, ( he essentially cured himself of stage 4 prostate cancer, 2 years to live 5 years ago) researched filters and I'll be bringing a Berky filter with me when I come back. Anyway, would you mind sharing your contact in bkk where I might get the testing done. Thanks to both of you for your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 We locked 2 open bags in plastic box. One is full with bugs. The second has no bugs at all, but 2 dead one. They stay fit together and everywhere the bugs run around. Scary that they don't eat the other bag of rice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brain150 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If anybody is interested in the real risks of all the stuff they put in our food [and much more] google for "Dietrich Klughardt". He is one of the leading physicians for integrated medicine. Borne in Germany and medical doctor in Germany and the US. He is THE guy healing most of the stuff we are talking [and scared] about. You can find lectures in german and english on youtube for a start. And please be aware that most doctors don't know anything about the things he is talking about !!! ... like most of us [and it is not a surprise] ! Sadly the health care "industry" makes profit on sick people, not healthy ones. The "business model" of health care needs to keep us sick [or make us sick] to stay profitable. Don't think ... start to understand !!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 If anybody is interested in the real risks of all the stuff they put in our food [and much more] google for "Dietrich Klughardt". I presume you mean Dietrich Klinghardt. He's just another quack promoting "alternative" (meaning unscientific) therapies, including neural therapy (the injection of scars, glands, trigger points, acupuncture points, vascular structures, ligaments and autonomic ganglia with procaine) mesotherapy injection techniques applied psychoneurobiology (psychokinesiology and mental field therapy) color therapy Source: http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/ His publications for the last few years have not been in serious academic journals, but appear on websites such as http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/ and http://andreannarainville.com (based upon searching for "D Klinghardt" on Google Scholar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigman Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) About soy..... 1.If you worry about poisons applied to crops then look what soy is doing to you.; 2. If you afraid eating butter then look what vegetable oils and any type of margarine is doing to your health. 3.Carbohydrates ...? messing up in your daily dosage every morning you eat bread .....list do on and on but first of all about soy which no country in the wold can accept soy in safe food in they list. *** Sweden is first in the world to change food pyramid because they can not manage with health spending's ( simply to much sugar and carbohydrates)....**** Actually , soy is in danger and poison food list in USA ,Australia and many developed countries. Unfortunately all products created from soy brings billions of profit every year....... That is sad true about just one of many products we eat and media is paid to tell us it is safe or even healthy.....; "Putting all of the toxic impurities and changes from the processing aside, the soy itself retains many of its original poisonous compounds that directly attack the thyroid, such as its hormones that are designed to disrupt fertility. Women are especially prone to experiencing horrific hormonal disorders like endometriosis from soy intake. There is no way to accurately determine how many miscarriages and how many of cases of infertility are the direct result of soy consumption." Soy's Effects on Human Health 250% increased risk of developing Alzheimer's disease Cognitive impairment Brain shrinkage and premature deterioration Produces steroidal hormones Produces estrogen-like compounds Vascular dementia Decreases brain calcium-binding proteins Early puberty in girls and retarded physical maturation in boys Unnatural menstrual patterns in women Malnutrition - soybeans have potent enzyme inhibitors Reduced protein digestion Interference with tyrosine kinase-dependent mechanisms required for optimal hippocampal function, structure and plasticity Inhibits tyrosine kinase which impairs memory formation Inhibits dopamine Movement difficulties characteristic of Parkinson's disease Depressed thyroid function Infants who receive soy formula are 200% more likely to develop diabetes Birth defects Due to suppression of the thyroid, fluoride becomes much more toxic Inhibits zinc absorption http://healthwyze.org/index.php/component/content/article/205-soy-is-unfit-for-human-consumption.html Edited March 6, 2015 by gigman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigman Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Do you know that ; (Translated ) "scientists are warning now that autism in the world is getting bigger 7-10% every year " 1 of 100 born child (boy) is autistic and every 150 girl is also autistic. They say ; "if nothing will be done against it then in 10 years every second child will be born autistic ! in USA " Nobody from doctors and scientist dares to say openly that pesticides are responsible ...." We don't know if this is not the way to reduce population but definitely fertility dropped in most places in the world ...where exactly ? ??? find out by yourself... it's easy ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigman Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 If someone is telling me that corn (produced this days...modified) is healthy to me ...then is offensive towards my intelligence .because it is not true and every curious person can learn from huge amount of information which comes from scientists. Do you know that many different types of modified corn seeds are just 1 molecule from plastic ??? Do you know that many plastic packages like soft drink bottles and other similar food packages are product of modified corn....??? You can learn what pesticides are doing for you.... Check yourself ; There was a tv program and website where this process was explained in detail how corn can be used to plastic production and why the best is modified corn . Unfortunately website disappeared ....just lately.... some links to read ; Most important ; many questions was asked about our safety in food consuming and you can only get answer; :yes it safe" but if you ask same people ; "can you guarantee that in 20 years it will I will not be a victim of your mistake telling me "it is safe" ---- answer always was ... "NO" We are living in 21 century and every one can use own brain and knowledge from science and judge using common sense if food they are feeding us is safe for us. Main questions I have is...; why previous generations are more healthy then new one ... Why we have so many new type of illness's and diseases we had no before and at least not in this huge amount. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx http://green-plastics.net/posts/76/qaa-help-with-cornstarch-pla-plastic-project/ http://environment.about.com/od/greenlivingdesign/a/pla.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigman Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 There is a huge and steadily increasing amount of real scientific information that shows that Glyphosate based agro-chemicals are extremely disruptive to life and are implicated in a wide range of serious and chronic human health problems. Virtually all scientific studies that conclude they are not harmful are those that have been funded by the big agro-chemical producers such as Monsanto. Independent research finds very strong reasons why we should all be verry afraid of Glyphosate based chemicals and their effect on the entire food chain in general and human health in particular. Have a look at some of the articles from the very well respected Dr Mercola website - here are a few links - but there are plenty more http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/15/glyphosate-health-effects.aspx http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/30/glyphosate-toxicity.aspx http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx "Well-respected Dr. Mercola"? Mwah-haa-haa! The man is a (probably delusional) fraud. To quote Wikipedia: "Mercola ... advocate approaches including magnetic healing, psychic powers, spiritual healing and homeopathy." (i.e. a proponent of quack cures) "Mercola is ... a 1982 graduate of the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine" (i.e. no proper medical or scientific qualification). "Mercola has also received three warning letters from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for violations of U.S. marketing laws" (i.e. he'll say anything to make money) "Mercola opposes the use of most prescription drugs and immunizations" (i.e. ignorant loony) Oh, and despite describing himself as "Dr.", he's not an MD or a Ph.D.. He's a DO - Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. How anybody could take the self-serving proclamations of the man seriously is utterly beyond me. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * This doctor was a laughing stock in his discoveries too .....and even bitten when he introduced his simple machine helping suffering people of asthma and other breathing problems.. Now his discoveries are widely used ........ You can read about this; https://www.google.com.au/search?q=dr.+buteyko&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=TRX5VNKCJoazmAWi1ICgDA Don't judge ...use common sense Unfortunately , more and more people became close minded ...and believe media and those who just want to be billionaire.. No one ... and I say no one care about humanity ...because we do not care about ourselves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipesed Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Why do posters who know absolutely nothing about chemistry, or any other scientific discipline (yes, gigman, I am referring to you) insist on peddling this nonsense. "Do you know that many different types of modified corn seeds are just 1 molecule from plastic ???" Do you know what a molecule is? Do you know what "plastic" is? You do know that everything on this earth is a "chemical"? We can put men on the moon, but not educate many of the populace to a half-decent level of understanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This doctor was a laughing stock in his discoveries too .....and even bitten when he introduced his simple machine helping suffering people of asthma and other breathing problems.. Now his discoveries are widely used ........ You can read about this; https://www.google.com.au/search?q=dr.+buteyko&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=TRX5VNKCJoazmAWi1ICgDA Don't judge ...use common sense Unfortunately , more and more people became close minded ...and believe media and those who just want to be billionaire.. No one ... and I say no one care about humanity ...because we do not care about ourselves.... This doctor being Buteyko whose method of breathing is claimed to cure everything from asthma to diabetes to mental disorders. Yet, there hasn't been a single, properly designed scientific trial that demonstrates the technique's effectiveness. Sorry. Until proven otherwise this is just another quack treatment. People should be closed minded - not have open minds that allow any new age junk to be accepted as true just because someone who calls himself a doctor say it is. I'm quite frankly staggered by the number of posters on this forum who accept what they read on the web as true without doing any serious questioning of the source of the information, its scientific reasonableness, and the evidence for its having been proven true to a high standard. There also seems to be a strand of anti-science bias, based upon all sorts of conspiracy theories that scientists are covering things up or lying to us, and that everything that comes out of a laboratory is dangerous to us. Scientists are human too, and (almost invariably) don't want to harm people. The scientific method is by far the best way to determine whether a treatment works or not. It is the gold standard. Anecdotal evidence may be interesting, and may possibly lead to scientific trials, but it's not in itself evidence of efficacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captor Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Actually, they talked about this on the news here in Sweden last week. They claimed that we shoud be careful with al riceproducts because of very high levels of Arsenic in it. They als o said this is highly poison and is probably a cause for many different kinds of cancer. And others as well. They did not mention Thailand specific but that is were most rice comes from. Has there been anything on the news about this issue in Thailand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Actually, they talked about this on the news here in Sweden last week. They claimed that we shoud be careful with al riceproducts because of very high levels of Arsenic in it. They als o said this is highly poison and is probably a cause for many different kinds of cancer. And others as well. They did not mention Thailand specific but that is were most rice comes from. Has there been anything on the news about this issue in Thailand? I believe that the major concern is with rice grown in the southern United States where arsenic-based insecticides were used in large quantities to control cotton pests. The same land is now used to grow rice. Indian basmati rice and Thai jasmine rice have relatively low levels of arsenic. I very much doubt that the Thai media will cover the issue. After all, something really dangerous - asbestos - is still widely used here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernphil Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Do any of these nasty things on the crops cause cancer ? The reason I ask is that nearly every week someone in the little Bans round here dies of cancer. Never told details but " So and so died from cancer in Ban Dai " " Can't get out for a beer tomorrow another funeral , lady died from cancer " Nearly every week. My biggest worry right now ( like kannot ) is how much if any of these unfriendly products go into the water table. Our water is pumped from deep beneath the ground but we are surrounded by rice fields. Here is a video on the dangers of orange growing areas..... http://www.cultureunplugged.com/play/6626/Orange-Alert Thanks for that T_ Dog. Very interesting. Pollution is no ones problem it seems. Smoke , pesticides ,poluted water. Just pass the buck to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captor Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Thanks for the info, AyG, that is good to know. I like rice so then I can contunue eating that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harveyg Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This doctor was a laughing stock in his discoveries too .....and even bitten when he introduced his simple machine helping suffering people of asthma and other breathing problems.. Now his discoveries are widely used ........ You can read about this; https://www.google.com.au/search?q=dr.+buteyko&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=TRX5VNKCJoazmAWi1ICgDA Don't judge ...use common sense Unfortunately , more and more people became close minded ...and believe media and those who just want to be billionaire.. No one ... and I say no one care about humanity ...because we do not care about ourselves.... This doctor being Buteyko whose method of breathing is claimed to cure everything from asthma to diabetes to mental disorders. Yet, there hasn't been a single, properly designed scientific trial that demonstrates the technique's effectiveness. Sorry. Until proven otherwise this is just another quack treatment. People should be closed minded - not have open minds that allow any new age junk to be accepted as true just because someone who calls himself a doctor say it is. I'm quite frankly staggered by the number of posters on this forum who accept what they read on the web as true without doing any serious questioning of the source of the information, its scientific reasonableness, and the evidence for its having been proven true to a high standard. There also seems to be a strand of anti-science bias, based upon all sorts of conspiracy theories that scientists are covering things up or lying to us, and that everything that comes out of a laboratory is dangerous to us. Scientists are human too, and (almost invariably) don't want to harm people. The scientific method is by far the best way to determine whether a treatment works or not. It is the gold standard. Anecdotal evidence may be interesting, and may possibly lead to scientific trials, but it's not in itself evidence of efficacy. I could write much about what you have written but I don't want to defend nor explain my choices. Without referring to any specific information posted on this and other topics and on this and other posts, (except maybe Mercola on this one) I offer the following: "The world is flat you fool. Everyone knows that. Open mindedness? Absolutely crazy. Prove to me the world is round" The truly gratifying thing I've found from my science minded colleague is the sheer number of MDs that are discarding a lot of their training in favor of 'quackery'. Harder and harder to dismiss them bc of mounting evidence-(ask my colleague, not me) There is another gold standard worth mentioning - experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSure Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I would not waste my time talking with retarded who dare to explain that chemicals are good for you ! Maybe after his kids get cancer he will undersyand that he is a monkey.... Geez. Better stay away from water then as it's a chemical compound. I'd especially recommend staying away from the oxygen part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 The truly gratifying thing I've found from my science minded colleague is the sheer number of MDs that are discarding a lot of their training in favor of 'quackery'. Harder and harder to dismiss them bc of mounting evidence-(ask my colleague, not me) There is another gold standard worth mentioning - experience Whilst I find it truly horrifying that MDs are discarding a lot of their training for treatments which have no scientific basis or evidence of their effectiveness. Experience is not a gold standard. It's this sort of muddy thinking that creates problems. For example, some children developed autism after receiving an MMR injection. They would have developed it anyway, but parents, feeling guilty, needed something to blame, so they blamed the MMR vaccine. This "experience" backed by a dodgy scientific paper by a dodgier doctor (now struck off) added "authority" to the belief that MMR caused autism. As a result many parents chose not to vaccinate their children, or to delay vaccination, leaving those children at risk of serious diseases. Unfortunately, even now, many parents still believe that MMR causes autism and are completely unaware that the link has comprehensively been discredited. Hence the current outbreak of Measles in America. People are very bad at understanding statistics. They are bad at distinguishing between correlation, coincidence and causation. People (generally) have very little scientific understanding - even most doctors. Their perception of their experiences simply can't be trusted. I personally would always prefer to be treated by a doctor who practised evidence-based medicine - treatments with a solid background of proper scientific proof and rationale - rather than quackery based upon "experience". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I am growing most of my own,so cutting out a lot of poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 T_Dog, I see that rat poisoning practice along fields as well and it is very disturbing. Environmentally (which Thai's don't care about) it's dumb but it also inadvertently kills people's prized pets yet they don't seem to care about that either. And of course they all go out of their way to kill every single snake which would be excellent at controlling pests. When I was in California we enjoyed having a few gopher snakes around to prevent gophers from making dirt piles in lawns. That would never fly in Thailand. They would much rather kill all the snakes and use poisons. It's a different culture here. As kannot so eloquently said "the Thai answer to everything is throw a chemical on it". You learn that being out in the countryside. Farming in Thailand is a cycle of burning everything up, poisoning everything, and using chemicals to make things grow. I don't think people elsewhere know how bad it is here. I buy organic soymilk, but a lot of chemical laden crops are difficult to avoid. The Thai government recently recommended washing produce for 10 minutes. I can't imagine spending that much of my day, devoted to that. And even so, wonder about the chemicals and poisons on the inside. Who do you rekon told them about chemicals and who sells it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Does anyone seriously believe that there is any true organic farming in Thailand? i personally doubt it, unless it is managed by a farang. to get a farm certified as organic in australia can take years, as residual chemicals can stay in the soil for years. It takes 7 years but probably not 100% organic due to outside influences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Somtam Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 T_Dog, I see that rat poisoning practice along fields as well and it is very disturbing. Environmentally (which Thai's don't care about) it's dumb but it also inadvertently kills people's prized pets yet they don't seem to care about that either. And of course they all go out of their way to kill every single snake which would be excellent at controlling pests. When I was in California we enjoyed having a few gopher snakes around to prevent gophers from making dirt piles in lawns. That would never fly in Thailand. They would much rather kill all the snakes and use poisons. It's a different culture here. As kannot so eloquently said "the Thai answer to everything is throw a chemical on it". You learn that being out in the countryside. Farming in Thailand is a cycle of burning everything up, poisoning everything, and using chemicals to make things grow. I don't think people elsewhere know how bad it is here. I buy organic soymilk, but a lot of chemical laden crops are difficult to avoid. The Thai government recently recommended washing produce for 10 minutes. I can't imagine spending that much of my day, devoted to that. And even so, wonder about the chemicals and poisons on the inside. Who do you rekon told them about chemicals and who sells it to them. Please tell us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trembly Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Health Agency Says Widely Used Herbicide Likely Carcinogenic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 They use pesticides because they don't want to lose their crop. They don't do it for fun, and it costs them money. The reason for the high residual concentrations in foods is farmers apply too much and at the wrong time, often too soon before harvest not allowing sufficient time for chemical breakdown to less harmful substances through volatilisation and photolytic oxidation and wotnot. Comes down to education and the derogation of a duty of care mostly from the agrochemicals business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yet people generally keep living longer and longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yet people generally keep living longer and longer. Indeed. But this has much to do with public health systems, soap and antibiotics as well as general practice and specialist medicine. Cancer rates are on the rise globally. Although how this correlates with the increase in life expectancy and the oldie age group, not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancid Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Hope they don't get their hands on Glyphosphate it will happen though if it is not already happening. In 2012 Thailand imported $88,130,000 worth of Glyphosate, so it's already happening. That was Thailand's #1 import of its category. (Source: http://www.ifrnd.org/Research%20Papers/I6%284%295.pdf ) However, why the concern? Glyphosate is a particularly cheap, safe and effective herbicide. It can also work wonders when combined with "Roundup Ready" crops. Really don't see the problem. Roundup is really nasty stuff, you really should do a little more widespread reading, probably the worst of them all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I had a strange thing: 2 bags of rice forgotten in a big plastic box. both complete open. One full with bugs, the other complete without bugs (1 dead one)....the bugs are everywhere in the box and could freely walk into the other bag (open on top). They didn't...why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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