People in North upset about smog's impact on their health

[FolkGuitar]

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A pretty typical post from an apologist.

The analogy between complaining about the weather and complaining about a man made-phenomenon is so obviously false.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us of your solution to the problem. Or would you prefer to just complain about something over which 'you' have no control?

Other folks buy an air filter for their homes and wear N95 masks for the few weeks that the air quality is low, and never say a word.

I just purchased a PM2.5 laser particle counter recently (might not be terribly accurate but more than sensitive enough to show % decrease), just waiting for the haze period over here in SG to personally test. But yeah, 50% is too much. I forgot to mention that another party has done measurements in the car vs roadside, there's a decrease but that's more like 20% lower. But 50% for 3M Filtrete aircon filter, i believe that's legit.

Talking about Amazon, i stocked up several boxes of 3M 9210 (20 in a box) when it was usd4.05, and Amazon ships free to SG. Min of usd125 per order, eligible goods.

I too believe that the N95 masks and A/C filter sheets will take care of most of the problems. And when you consider that the situation exists for only a short time, a short time remedy is effective. While it would be lovely to have the governments of S.E, Asia remove the causative behavior, until that happens, we CAN take positive steps to reduce the problem on a personal level, and get on with our daily lives without undo stress or needing to vacate.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[vivid]

It's nice of awk to share his experience!

[andreandre]

The chart is interesting, and I can certainly understand how a good air filter will help clear up a lot of the problems indoors. But I don't understand how there can be a 50% drop indoors without one. Air still enters the house (thank God...) And the particulate matter is measured in microns, not inches or centimeters (than God...) "Micron" is a pretty small measurement. The adult human hair 'averages' about 40 microns thick. So we're talking about particulate matter far smaller than a human hair. What is it about going indoors that would drop the percentage 50%? Air is still entering. It's still circulating. I can see a small drop as the particulates cling to surfaces, perhaps a 5%-8% drop. But no where near 50%.

Afaik, there is no significant drop in indoors as far as pm2.5 is concerned. I measured this myself last year, and I also recently read some research papers confirming the same. Possibly there is some error in the measurement procedure for the plot, as I do not understand the results either. E.g., perhaps the living room is close to the bedroom, and after a while, cleaner bedroom air seeps out into the livingroom. I know that outside my closed bedroom, where I run the air purifier at max currently, the air will be somewhat better than in the rest of the house, presumably due to the same reason.

For the larger pm10 particles, I measured a notable drop by going inside however (around 30% reduction was what I measured last year).

However, the simple fact of turning on the AC, even without any extra filters, significantly reduces the pm2.5 count by up to 50%. 3M improves the reduction, but in my measurements, by a somewhat surprisingly small margin.

The main thing to do now is to switch on the AC if you have one in my opinion.

Why does just a regular old AC help? I am not sure, but I guess any filter will catch a fair amount of the pm2.5 particles also, e.g. ref. the counts posted by vivid for the surgical mask that is not intended to catch pm2.5, but which still reduces the particle count by half (or more if I remember correctly). If so, circulating the air again and again even through a regular AC filter should remove some particles each time air passes through. As long as the even slightly cleaner air coming out of the AC flows out a rate considerably larger than the more dirty air from outside flows in at, it makes sense that air inside will be at least slightly better. I was much surprised by how much better it was however.

More recently I also measured inside our newish car, which has much better isolation (I suspect) than the house we live in. With the AC off, there was no significant difference in the pm2.5 count versus outside, while pm10 was considerably lower. After running the AC at the regular speed (lowest or second to lowest, don't remember) for 15 minutes, while driving even, pm2.5 count inside was about 1/3 of the pm2.5 count outside, so as suspected considerably better than in our leaky house. Should obviously be repeated a handful of times to be sure, but I only did this particular measurement one.

Note that most car AC's have a setting for whether to just circulate the air already inside the car, or whether to let in air from outside and cool/filter that. Obviously, the former is what one wants at this time.

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

Edited March 16, 2015 by andreandre

[jonwilly]

Vivid as you keep mentioning my name

Just what are your medical qualifications ?

john

I know one Dr who wears and one who helps out.

You are From the US, Harlan County ?

[FolkGuitar]

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

... right along with the Oxygen levels.

While it's true that we only use a small amount of O2 available in the air, in a closed environment it does run out. ( It's one reason why people don't live in hermetically sealed environments without C02 scrubbers, as in submarines and SCUBA rebreathers. ) And if O2 can get in with the air, so can particulate matter.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[DividendGuy]

We returned yesterday (Sunday) from Chiang Mai. My wife and I were interested in a possible move to Chiang Mai so we could live in a peaceful, cooler and cleaner environment. After ten days there we will not be returning because it is just too polluted. Where is the benefit in living in an area that is actually bad for your health during certain times of the year? We loved the quaintness, the layout of the city and the restaurant scene, but until the local government and the people of Chiang get serious and do something positive about the air quality we will not be coming back. There are too many other countries that offer better choices where we don't have to cough so much while we are outside.

[andreandre]

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

... right along with the Oxygen levels.

While it's true that we only use a small amount of O2 available in the air, in a closed environment it does run out. ( It's one reason why people don't live in hermetically sealed environments without C02 scrubbers, as in submarines and SCUBA rebreathers. ) And if O2 can get in with the air, so can particulate matter.

I'm sure that we all know about oxygen deprivation in a sealed environment....thank you for sharing your knowledge...but i was simply making a point about how good a properly filtered A/C might clean most of the particles airbound in a room. at least down to a healthy level....Thats what we are talking about here...

Edited March 16, 2015 by andreandre

[vivid]

Vivid as you keep mentioning my name

Just what are your medical qualifications ?

Hi there,

Was merely just providing some tests done on surgical masks.

I'm not in the medical fraternity.

Hope i am not out-of-topic much though... To keep a long story sort, I suffer from chronic allergic rhinitis, my wife was pregnant during 2013 when my country (Singapore) suffered from extreme levels of haze, my mother in law is on blood anti-coagulation medication hence she is at risk (cardio, ishochemic stroke). Visits to various specialists over here in Singapore Mount Elizabeth hospital. The info is correct though care in usage should be advised for pregnant ladies and elderly/asthmatics/lung issues etc.

Just a few days earlier, locally over here in SG, put on sale a special type of N95 grade respirator with both a exhaust vent + active fan over the vent to deal with issues faced by the elderly/pregnant women wearing respirators for longer periods.

Also i am glad that most folks here recognise that you need N95 or similar respirators and not 2 or 3-ply facemasks due to (1) filter element performance (2) leakage at the sides.

More info :

FDA

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/GeneralHospitalDevicesandSupplies/PersonalProtectiveEquipment/ucm055977.htm

Govt agency :

http://www.e101.gov.sg/haze/mask.htm

Safety :

http://www.bmssafety.com/articles/disposable-filtering-facemasks/

[Weblo]

I agree with the above poster, why would anyone want to live here????

This is my first trip here, I love the place, but I most certainly will not be returning at this time of year.

And all the talk about wearing masks. Are you people for real??????

What a joy to have to wear a mask to go outside!!!! Hahahahahahahah

Glad I live in Canada.

I was out on a bike ride today, my eyes are still burning, what a shithole.

[newcomer01]

Where is the 3M shop??

[FolkGuitar]

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We returned yesterday (Sunday) from Chiang Mai. My wife and I were interested in a possible move to Chiang Mai so we could live in a peaceful, cooler and cleaner environment. After ten days there we will not be returning because it is just too polluted. Where is the benefit in living in an area that is actually bad for your health during certain times of the year? We loved the quaintness, the layout of the city and the restaurant scene, but until the local government and the people of Chiang get serious and do something positive about the air quality we will not be coming back. There are too many other countries that offer better choices where we don't have to cough so much while we are outside.

I agree with the above poster, why would anyone want to live here????
This is my first trip here, I love the place, but I most certainly will not be returning at this time of year.
And all the talk about wearing masks. Are you people for real??????
What a joy to have to wear a mask to go outside!!!! Hahahahahahahah
Glad I live in Canada.
I was out on a bike ride today, my eyes are still burning, what a shithole.

Sorry you were unhappy here. On the other hand, I'm glad that there won't be at least three more people adding to the crowds on the roads, and bitching about the weather. Please tell your friends not to come too.

Those of us who are happy to live here, don't mind putting up with a few weeks of smog. Could be a lot worse... Could be like L.A. with year-round smog. A mask is not much of an inconvenience to deal with, considering the advantages of living here the rest of the year. Of course it would be better if the air were clear, but as that isn't going to happen any time soon, no need to constantly moan about it. We deal with it, and enjoy the rest of our time here.

[FolkGuitar]

Where is the 3M shop??

I don't know where the 3M Shop is, but you can buy N95 masks at HomePro, in the same building as Big C Extra on the Superhighway.

[FolkGuitar]

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

... right along with the Oxygen levels.

While it's true that we only use a small amount of O2 available in the air, in a closed environment it does run out. ( It's one reason why people don't live in hermetically sealed environments without C02 scrubbers, as in submarines and SCUBA rebreathers. ) And if O2 can get in with the air, so can particulate matter.

I'm sure that we all know about oxygen deprivation in a sealed environment....thank you for sharing your knowledge...but i was simply making a point ......

Sorry. I guess you didn't make it very well.

[Jonmarleesco]

'... foreign visitors still complained about the impact of the smog on their health.' Are these the same foreign visitors that the TAT claims to be enthusiastically patronising Chiang Mai?

[andreandre]

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

... right along with the Oxygen levels.

While it's true that we only use a small amount of O2 available in the air, in a closed environment it does run out. ( It's one reason why people don't live in hermetically sealed environments without C02 scrubbers, as in submarines and SCUBA rebreathers. ) And if O2 can get in with the air, so can particulate matter.

I'm sure that we all know about oxygen deprivation in a sealed environment....thank you for sharing your knowledge...but i was simply making a point ......

Sorry. I guess you didn't make it very well.

Guess you just chose to not take the point is more like it...

To reiterate :

Running the A/C with its associated filters definitely reduces the particle circulating in the air. and moreso if fitted with a good brand of extra filter eg 3 m....if one had an airtight room [not likely in LOS i know] but it would be interesting to see how low the count got to after an extended period. Maybe to near zero i would think.

EDIT..couldn't get much clearer than that...even though its extra smoggy now...

Edited March 16, 2015 by andreandre

[FolkGuitar]

'... foreign visitors still complained about the impact of the smog on their health.' Are these the same foreign visitors that the TAT claims to be enthusiastically patronising Chiang Mai?

They could well be, but I doubt it. The outdoor restaurant where I ate lunch today had all the tables filled. A few Chinese groups, a few European families, one or two expat groups... It's possible the Chinese folks were complaining, between bouts of laughing and shouting to each other. I don't speak much Mandarin so I couldn't say for sure. The Europeans groups (French and German) weren't, nor did I hear the Aussie bike riders complaining. In fact, as a generality, most of the complaining I hear is here in ThaiVisa... year after year after year.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[timtimtim]

I just got back from chang mai. I complained. I couldn't breathe and I'll never go back. A lot of Europeans don't seem to value their health because I could see them coughing but carrying on regardless. I believe it's due to the fact that they don't really know how bad it is. If they knew they would leave.

I only knew because of this forum for which I am grateful. It meant I could minimize the damage to my lungs. If I hadn't read about it here I might have ended up going to hospital believing I was having a heart attack. Yes my experience was really that bad.

[Sparkles]

Where is the 3M shop??

I don't know where the 3M Shop is, but you can buy N95 masks at HomePro, in the same building as Big C Extra on the Superhighway.

Many pharmacies carry the N 95 3 M masks I got mine, and a spare, from the Pharmacy ground floor Airport Plaza, 32 baht just down from Bangkok Bank

[vivid]

I just got back from chang mai. I complained. I couldn't breathe and I'll never go back. A lot of Europeans don't seem to value their health because I could see them coughing but carrying on regardless. I believe it's due to the fact that they don't really know how bad it is. If they knew they would leave.

I only knew because of this forum for which I am grateful. It meant I could minimize the damage to my lungs. If I hadn't read about it here I might have ended up going to hospital believing I was having a heart attack. Yes my experience was really that bad.

If you have cardio issues or you know that your cardio/lung healthy hasn't been good, yes you ought to be concerned. Same thing for smoking, if you have such health issues then you shouldn't be smoking as well.

[timtimtim]

Actually I'm a Tai Chi coach in the peak of my health. I don't smoke, drink or take drugs. Consequently I felt the full brunt of the pollution. My partner who smokes coped much better, because she is used to functioning with smoke in her lungs.

My lungs still have not recovered from the damage. Both me and my partner woke in the night to the sounds of ourselves wheezing to try and breathe properly.

I've night it was so bad I got up at 4am and traveled to the doi sutep by motorcycle. At 4am. I spent a few hours there just so that I could breathe properly. Do you think I'd do that if there wasn't a problem?

I feel sorry for the people who live there. I really do.

[Sparkles]

The cheap and popular facial masks that fit around the ears are essentially worthless. N95 masks by 3M are effective but uncomfortable to wear and maybe too expensive for most Thais (30 THB each at the 3M shop). And of course neither protects the eyes.

I think most Thais could afford 30 baht to protect their health. They are not comfortable especially if you wear glasses, the lens tend to fog up, but anyone working outside, be they Thai or foreigner, are taking a risk not wearing one.

Any way it soon will be over as the wind has come to the rescue and storms are on their way and the Government probably will have another meeting to declare the crisis is over.

We can go through it all over again next year

[DividendGuy]

Do any of you people listen to yourselves when you talk about having to wear a face mask and taking other precautions? The tourists (us included) that come to Chiang Mai aren't planning on having to wear a face mask in order to protect their health...they are tourists and are of the mindset of having a wonderful time in a lovely city. Not worrying about their lungs being damaged if you don't wear a certain style mask is a given and any of you morons that don't get it are just plain stupid or have been breathing the polluted air there too long, but most likely, have a vested interested there. We left after several days because the air was too polluted for us to enjoy our stay there for a vacation.