At least 8 dead in Tunisia attack on leading museum

[Lite Beer]

At least 8 dead in Tunisia attack on leading museum
BOUAZZA BEN BOUAZZA, Associated Press

TUNIS, Tunisia (AP) — Gunmen opened fire Wednesday at a leading museum in Tunisia's capital, leaving at least eight dead and six wounded, including foreign tourists, authorities said. It was the first attack on a tourist site in years in Tunisia, a shaky young democracy that has struggled to keep Islamic extremist violence at bay.

It wasn't immediately clear who the attackers were, or if they took hostages.

Security forces filled the area around the National Bardo Museum after the attack. Tunisia's parliament building, near the museum, was being evacuated, according to a tweet by parliament member Sayida Ounissi.

Private radio station Radio Mosaique said that three men dressed in military-style clothing may have taken hostages inside the museum.

Interior Ministry spokesman Mohamed Ali Aroui said on Wataniya television that eight were dead — seven foreign tourists and one Tunisian. He didn't provide nationalities for the foreign victims. Poland's Foreign Ministry announced that three Poles were among the wounded.

Tunisia recently completed a rocky road to democracy after overthrowing its authoritarian president in 2011. It has been more stable than other countries in the region, but it has struggled with violence by Islamic extremists in recent years, including some linked to the Islamic State group. It also has extremists linked to al-Qaida's North Africa arm who occasionally target Tunisian security forces.

A disproportionately large number of Tunisian recruits — some 3,000, according to government estimates — have joined Islamic State fighters in Syria and Iraq.

The violence that Tunisia has seen in recent years has been largely focused on security forces, not foreigners or tourist sites.

The attack is a blow to Tunisia's efforts to revive its tourism industry.

The National Bardo Museum, built within a 15th-century palace, is the largest museum in Tunisia with collections covering two floors, and it houses one of the world's largest collections of Roman mosaics.

The museum is near the North African country's parliament some 4 kilometers (2 ½ miles) from the city center. A new wing with contemporary architecture was built as part of a 2009 renovation, doubling the surface area. Some 8,000 works are displayed in the museum, according to the website.

The attack comes the day after Tunisian security officials confirmed the death in neighboring Libya of a leading suspect in Tunisian terror attacks and the killings of two opposition figures in Tunisia.

Ahmed Rouissi gained the nickname of the "black box of terrorism." The information on his death was made public by security officials giving testimony in parliament and cited by the official TAP news agency.

Libya, which has devolved into chaos, is a source of major concern for Tunisia.

Also a major worry is the Mount Chaambi area on the border with Algeria where al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb has reportedly been helping a Tunisian group which has killed numerous soldiers.

___

Elaine Ganley and Jamey Keaten in Paris and Monika Scislowska in Warsaw, Poland, contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-03-18

[Paulc01]

Tunisia, where the Arab Spring began. Tunisia, like all the others, where the Arab Spring is beginning to resemble an asteroid impact zone.

[rasmus5150]

I really fear that this could happen in one of the many malls in Bangkok.

[Lissos]

'Islamists strike again', me thinks. Conflicts often burst their borders, whether literally or ideologically.

[balo]

The numbers of victims are now up to 19 , among 7 from Germany and the rest from other European countries. its all over the news channels now .

IS is probably behind the attack but its a bit early to be sure.

RIP and lets hope they track down the escaped terrorists.

[Saradoc1972]

Where there are Muslims, there is Islam, and hence peace...

It's an ancient society based on clan-warfare, where every clan wants to be the caliph instead of the caliph. Started even before Mohammed died.

Hence, unless there is some sort of a "superpower-clan" to rule them all (sometimes called dictator or absolute monarch with a bad-ass secret police), this is what you get.

[wooloomooloo]

Hence, unless there is some sort of a "superpower-clan" to rule them all (sometimes called dictator or absolute monarch with a bad-ass secret police), this is what you get.

There was a superpower-clan in Sodamn Insane and his cronies, but they hung him and the vacuum was duly filled.

[webfact]

Museum attack in Tunisian capital kills 19; 2 gunmen slain
By BOUAZZA BEN BOUAZZA and PAUL SCHEMM

TUNIS, Tunisia (AP) — Foreign tourists scrambled in panic Wednesday after militants stormed a museum in Tunisia's capital and killed 19 people, "shooting at anything that moved," a witness said.

Two gunmen were slain by security forces following the deadliest attack on civilians in the North African country in 13 years, and the president said the young democracy was embroiled in a war with terror.

The militants, who wore military-style uniforms and wielded assault rifles, burst from a vehicle and began gunning down tourists climbing out of buses at the National Bardo Museum. The attackers then charged inside to take hostages before being killed in a firefight with security forces.

Authorities launched a manhunt for two or three accomplices in the attack. Prime Minister Habib Essid said the two Tunisian gunmen killed 17 tourists — five from Japan, four from Italy, two from Colombia, two from Spain, and one each from Australia, Poland and France. The nationality of one dead foreigner was not released. Essid said two Tunisian nationals also were killed by the militants.

At least 44 people were wounded, including tourists from Italy, France, Japan, South Africa, Poland, Belgium and Russia, according to Essid and doctors from Tunis' Charles Nicolle.

"I want the people of Tunisia to understand firstly and lastly that we are in a war with terror, and these savage minority groups will not frighten us," said newly elected President Beji Caid Essebsi in an evening address to the nation. "The fight against them will continue until they are exterminated."

Tunisians overthrew their dictator in 2011 and kicked off the Arab Spring that spread across the region. While the uprising built a new democracy, the country has also struggled with economic problems and attacks by extremists.

Essid identified the slain gunmen as Yassine Laabidi and Hatem Khachnaoui.

Twitter accounts associated with the extremist Islamic State group based in Syria and Iraq were described as overjoyed at the attack, urging Tunisians to "follow their brothers," according to Rita Katz of SITE, a U.S.-based organization that monitors militant groups.

The assault at the Bardo, Tunisia's largest museum that is housed in a 15th century palace, began sometime after noon local time as scores of European tourists were visiting.

Josep Lluis Cusido, the mayor of the Spanish town of Vallmoll, said he saw people being gunned down on the plaza outside the museum before the gunmen moved inside.

"After they entered the museum. I saw their faces: They were about 10 meters away from me, shooting at anything that moved," Cusido told Spain's Cadena Ser radio station.

"I managed to hide behind a pillar, there were unlucky people who they killed right there," he said, adding that he and his wife spent nearly three hours in the museum until they got out uninjured.

Dozens of tourists scrambled from the museum linking arms or clutching children as Tunisian police and security forces pointed their weapons at the building. The museum, 4 kilometers (2½ miles) from the city center, is located near the national parliament building, which was evacuated.

Some of the Italians at the museum were believed to have been passengers from the Costa Fascinosa, a cruise liner that had docked in Tunis while on a seven-day tour of the western Mediterranean. Ship owner Costa Crociere confirmed that some of its 3,161 passengers were visiting Tunis and that a Bardo tour was on the itinerary, but said it couldn't confirm how many were in the museum at the time.

The Bardo, a popular tourist attraction, houses one of the world's largest collections of Roman mosaics among its 8,000 works.

On Wednesday night, parliament held an extraordinary session where Speaker Mohammed Ennaceur called for the creation of a special fund to combat terrorism. He also called for the rapid passage of the anti-terror law that parliament had been debating when the attack took place.

Hours after the police ended the siege, thousands of Tunisians flocked to downtown's landmark Bourguiba Avenue, where the revolution took place, for a nighttime rally. They chanted for a "Free Tunisia" in defiance of terrorism.

Essid said the attack was an unprecedented assault on the economy. It came as Tunisia's all-important tourism business was starting to rebuild after drastic losses following the post-revolutionary turmoil. Numbers of arrivals for 2014 had begun to approach the levels of 2010 — before the revolution.

It was the worst attack in the country since an al-Qaida militant detonated a truck bomb in front of a historic synagogue on the Tunisia's island of Djerba in 2002, killing 21, mostly German tourists.

Tunisia has been more stable than other countries in the region, but has struggled with violence by Islamic extremists who have sworn allegiance to both al-Qaida and the Islamic State group.

A disproportionately large number of Tunisian recruits — some 3,000, according to government estimates — have joined Islamic State fighters in Syria and Iraq and many have received training in neighboring Libya.

The U.S. Embassy in Tunis was attacked in September 2012, seriously damaging the embassy grounds and an adjoining American school. Four of the assailants were killed.

Overall, though, violence in Tunisia in recent years has been largely focused on security forces, not foreigners or tourist sites.

In October 2013, a young man blew himself up on a beach in the coastal town of Sousse after being chased from a hotel, causing many to expect a new wave of attacks on tourism. None materialized until now.

The United States, France, the United Arab Emirates and the United Nations denounced the bloodshed. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Washington "condemns in the strongest possible terms today's deadly terrorist attack" and praised Tunisia's "rapid response" to resolve the hostage situation and restore calm.

Speaking at the Louvre museum to call for international efforts to preserve the heritage of Iraq and Syria against extremist destruction, French President Francois Hollande said he had called Tunisia's president to offer support and solidarity.

"Each time a terrorist crime is committed, we are all concerned," Hollande said.

North Africa analyst Geoff Porter said an attack on a tourism site has long been expected as the militants come under pressure from increasingly effective Tunisian security forces.

"Today's attack did not come out of nowhere. In fact, it comes amid ongoing counterterrorism efforts elsewhere in the country," he said about the attack. "Increasing pressure on terrorist activities ... may have squeezed the balloon, with terrorists seeking softer targets with more symbolic impact in the capital."

The attack came the day after Tunisian security officials confirmed the death in neighboring Libya of Ahmed Rouissi, leading suspect in Tunisian terror attacks and in the killings of two opposition figures in Tunisia.

Rouissi had become a field commander for the Islamic State in Libya and died fighting near the town of Sirte, highlighting how Libya has increasingly become a sanctuary for Tunisian radicals.

Tunisia has repeatedly expressed concern over the security threat from Libya, where central government has broken down since the 2011 ouster of Moammar Gadhafi and is now run by competing militias.
___

Schemm reported from Rabat, Morocco. Elaine Ganley and Jamey Keaten in Paris, Nicole Winfield in Rome, Jorge Sainz in Madrid and Monika Scislowska in Warsaw, Poland, contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-03-19

[ezzra]

Now there are 19 dead and counting... has any one insulted Mohamed lately and we didn't know?

[Steely Dan]

I wonder if any of the antiquities in the Museum were also destroyed? If so then what with murder and kidnapping this ticks all the boxes for the behavior that has nothing to do with Islam for 1400 years, even though verses in Islamic scripture have been misunderstood by people thinking it explicitly called for such behavior, also for 1400 years. So again we are at war with an enemy we can't even define properly.

[Saradoc1972]

I wonder if any of the antiquities in the Museum were also destroyed? If so then what with murder and kidnapping this ticks all the boxes for the behavior that has nothing to do with Islam for 1400 years, even though verses in Islamic scripture have been misunderstood by people thinking it explicitly called for such behavior, also for 1400 years. So again we are at war with an enemy we can't even define properly.

Defining them is easy. They call themselves Muslims, meaning "they who submit". And there are different brands of Muslims, each thinking only they got it right and hence by word of the prophet are "the perfect society" to the exclusion of all others and hence deserve to be caliph instead of the caliph, branding all others infidels, dhimmis or (different Muslims) as apostates.

Can't really talk sense into them apart from having the above bad-ass secret police around.

If you are trying to understand them, past defining them, I just dug this up: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2009/12/18/the-one-thing-muslim-immigrants-fear-is-being-deported/

"My experience from working psychologically with Muslims shows that the Muslim culture does not find it easy to be “equal.”

Either you are over or you are under: You can be different and unequal, but you cannot be different and equal.

The chiefs of the police and many politicians hope for some kind of “mutual acceptance,” but this is not possible in cultures developed under Islam."

Article also gives some advice if you already got them in your home-country.

Oh, and here: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2014/04/02/why-moderate-islam-is-an-oxymoron/

" The real question, then, is what do Allah and his prophet command Muslims (“they who submit”) to do? Are radicals “exaggerating” their orders?

Or are moderate Muslims simply “observing reasonable limits”—a euphemism for negligence?—when it comes to fulfilling their commandments?

In our highly secularized era, where we are told that religious truths are flexible or simply non-existent, and that any and all interpretations and exegeses are valid,

the all-important question of “What does Islam command?” loses all relevance.

Hence why the modern West is incapable of understanding Islam."

From my personal experience as a lawyer they *are* fighting extradition tooth and nail, even plead for a shorter term of exile, while criminal sentences apparently only elicit some sort of "only Allah can judge" feeling.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Saradoc1972

[mercman24]

what a great shame, i use to have many a happy holiday in Tunisia. this tragic event, will halt the tourist trade. r.i.p. to the innocent victims in all of this.

[DiamondKing]

Any Infidel that WILLINGLY enters a Muslim country is asking for trouble I would NEVER vacation in a Muslim country and try to avoid ever having to enter one at any time.

[Steely Dan]

I wonder if any of the antiquities in the Museum were also destroyed? If so then what with murder and kidnapping this ticks all the boxes for the behavior that has nothing to do with Islam for 1400 years, even though verses in Islamic scripture have been misunderstood by people thinking it explicitly called for such behavior, also for 1400 years. So again we are at war with an enemy we can't even define properly.

Defining them is easy. They call themselves Muslims, meaning "they who submit". And there are different brands of Muslims, each thinking only they got it right and hence by word of the prophet are "the perfect society" to the exclusion of all others and hence deserve to be caliph instead of the caliph, branding all others infidels, dhimmis or (different Muslims) as apostates.

Can't really talk sense into them apart from having the above bad-ass secret police around.

If you are trying to understand them, past defining them, I just dug this up: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2009/12/18/the-one-thing-muslim-immigrants-fear-is-being-deported/

"My experience from working psychologically with Muslims shows that the Muslim culture does not find it easy to be “equal.”

Either you are over or you are under: You can be different and unequal, but you cannot be different and equal.

The chiefs of the police and many politicians hope for some kind of “mutual acceptance,” but this is not possible in cultures developed under Islam."

Article also gives some advice if you already got them in your home-country.

Oh, and here: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2014/04/02/why-moderate-islam-is-an-oxymoron/

" The real question, then, is what do Allah and his prophet command Muslims (“they who submit”) to do? Are radicals “exaggerating” their orders?

Or are moderate Muslims simply “observing reasonable limits”—a euphemism for negligence?—when it comes to fulfilling their commandments?

In our highly secularized era, where we are told that religious truths are flexible or simply non-existent, and that any and all interpretations and exegeses are valid,

the all-important question of “What does Islam command?” loses all relevance.

Hence why the modern West is incapable of understanding Islam."

From my personal experience as a lawyer they *are* fighting extradition tooth and nail, even plead for a shorter term of exile, while criminal sentences apparently only elicit some sort of "only Allah can judge" feeling.

I understand and agree with your point. I wonder how many Countries there are which have not had a jihad attack. Clearly the leaders of Muslim states are rattled, because they know full well the official line told to us by Western leaders is a tissue of lies and propaganda.

Of course Islamists have everything to do with Islam, a war on 'terror' is in reality a war against the Medina verses of the Quran and many Hadiths and Suras and the ideology that uses them. Tunisia was and is moderate for a Muslim Country, yet 3000 of its citizens have joined ISIS. There needs to be a war between Muslims who want to separate religion and state and those who want a Caliphate, it is unavoidable. Until the smoke settles allowing Muslim immigration is an act of supreme folly.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Lissos]

Any Infidel that WILLINGLY enters a Muslim country is asking for trouble I would NEVER vacation in a Muslim country and try to avoid ever having to enter one at any time.

Luckily, for decades this notion has not matched reality on the ground, something that myself and others can report.

Perceptions of westerners and offical policy towards us varies around the Muslim world, but on the whole it is still not like a hobbit wandering into Mordor. Of course, people can bring up incidents as far back as the early 90s of direct terror attacks upon foreigners in the Muslim world, along with occasional sexual harrasment and irritant hawkers in bazzars but on the whole the situation for foreigners in much of the Muslim world has meant far less risk of open hostility, mugging, general aggression, theft of posessions or even sexual harrasment, than in the average western city.

The question now of course is, is all this 'past tense' and has there now been a huge rise in the aforementioned crimes?

For most of them, no it is still very unusual for those things to happen. However, it could be said that the risk of opportunist terrorism is arguably much higher now at spots like museums, bazzars, resorts and areas where coach loads of foreigners pull up. For those who mean to do harm, those are seen as a turkey shoot opportunities. On a third hand, these kind of people have also announced their intention to further their advance into the 'belly of the beast' (as they will see the west), something happening recently in places such as the U.S, Canada, France and Australia. Western security services appear to be arresting 'cells' every other week all over Europe, residents inspired by the 'jihad'. All anyone can do is consider how one of these nutters would think and what soft targets they might consider in our nations, or while overseas. Even then, nothing is full proof.

In recent weeks I was hiking on moorland one day and noticed the hunt returning after entering the domain of foxes. Earlier in the day I'd seen a red fox taking its time meandering in the surrounds of a village where the hunt leave from to go onto the moor. On the moor, I saw a hound chasing a fox in its own domain, creating havoc. The red fox who was meandering in the base domain of hunters themselves, appeared to be far safer that day.

[rasmus5150]

Any Infidel that WILLINGLY enters a Muslim country is asking for trouble I would NEVER vacation in a Muslim country and try to avoid ever having to enter one at any time.

Indonesia is a beautiful country with a very smiling and friendly population. Well, I guess with your views, you should spend your vacation under your bed.

[Chicog]

Any Infidel that WILLINGLY enters a Muslim country is asking for trouble I would NEVER vacation in a Muslim country and try to avoid ever having to enter one at any time.

I've lived in one for decades and I've never felt unsafe (except at the standard of some of the driving).

So you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Even the pissed tourists who got into trouble in Dubai a while back for public sex had actually already been politely told to get dressed and go home, but chose to ignore the advice.

A female friend of mine did a similar thing in the Emirates, and instead of going to jail was released after marrying the bloke she'd met pissed the night before!

However, I also remember a drunk bloke in Thailand getting 10 years for vandalism because he wrote something bad about HM on a poster on a holy day when the bars were closed.

Like anywhere else, just be sensible and don't be a knob.

I feel sorry for people who live their lives being fearful of things simply because they don't understand them.

[Srikcir]

ISIL directed attacks or sanctioned attacks in Tunisia will cross a red line that will bring in Italian and French armed forces on the ground.

If NATO determines that ISIL military activity in Tunisia is a threat ultimately against Europe, all of NATO may be mobilized to sweep northern Africa free of ISIL together with Egypt and Morocco.

[Steely Dan]

ISIL directed attacks or sanctioned attacks in Tunisia will cross a red line that will bring in Italian and French armed forces on the ground.

If NATO determines that ISIL military activity in Tunisia is a threat ultimately against Europe, all of NATO may be mobilized to sweep northern Africa free of ISIL together with Egypt and Morocco.

I'd like to think you're right but I suspect without U.S involvement NATO would be hard pressed to sweep a chimney, let alone North Africa.

[Linky]

Any Infidel that WILLINGLY enters a Muslim country is asking for trouble I would NEVER vacation in a Muslim country and try to avoid ever having to enter one at any time.

Quite the uneducated way of thinking you have.

I live quite well in a muslim country and have never had an issue. I feel much safer than I ever did living in a western country. I can sit having beers anytime I like, can order a nice pork roll. I even attended a wedding in a Christian church a month ago.

So hate to dispel bigoted thoughts from people that haven't experienced life in a muslim country.

Perhaps before you tar all muslim countries with the same brush perhaps you may like to specify which ones you are afraid of, or at least a region.

[Credo]

I think there is no question that most western countries would bomb them in a nano second, but they are pretty well embedded with civilians.

[Linky]

I wonder if any of the antiquities in the Museum were also destroyed? If so then what with murder and kidnapping this ticks all the boxes for the behavior that has nothing to do with Islam for 1400 years, even though verses in Islamic scripture have been misunderstood by people thinking it explicitly called for such behavior, also for 1400 years. So again we are at war with an enemy we can't even define properly.

Defining them is easy. They call themselves Muslims, meaning "they who submit". And there are different brands of Muslims, each thinking only they got it right and hence by word of the prophet are "the perfect society" to the exclusion of all others and hence deserve to be caliph instead of the caliph, branding all others infidels, dhimmis or (different Muslims) as apostates.

Can't really talk sense into them apart from having the above bad-ass secret police around.

If you are trying to understand them, past defining them, I just dug this up: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2009/12/18/the-one-thing-muslim-immigrants-fear-is-being-deported/

"My experience from working psychologically with Muslims shows that the Muslim culture does not find it easy to be equal.

Either you are over or you are under: You can be different and unequal, but you cannot be different and equal.

The chiefs of the police and many politicians hope for some kind of mutual acceptance, but this is not possible in cultures developed under Islam."

Article also gives some advice if you already got them in your home-country.

Oh, and here: http://www.citizentimes.eu/2014/04/02/why-moderate-islam-is-an-oxymoron/

" The real question, then, is what do Allah and his prophet command Muslims (they who submit) to do? Are radicals exaggerating their orders?

Or are moderate Muslims simply observing reasonable limitsa euphemism for negligence?when it comes to fulfilling their commandments?

In our highly secularized era, where we are told that religious truths are flexible or simply non-existent, and that any and all interpretations and exegeses are valid,

the all-important question of What does Islam command? loses all relevance.

Hence why the modern West is incapable of understanding Islam."

From my personal experience as a lawyer they *are* fighting extradition tooth and nail, even plead for a shorter term of exile, while criminal sentences apparently only elicit some sort of "only Allah can judge" feeling.

I understand and agree with your point. I wonder how many Countries there are which have not had a jihad attack. Clearly the leaders of Muslim states are rattled, because they know full well the official line told to us by Western leaders is a tissue of lies and propaganda.

Of course Islamists have everything to do with Islam, a war on 'terror' is in reality a war against the Medina verses of the Quran and many Hadiths and Suras and the ideology that uses them. Tunisia was and is moderate for a Muslim Country, yet 3000 of its citizens have joined ISIS. There needs to be a war between Muslims who want to separate religion and state and those who want a Caliphate, it is unavoidable. Until the smoke settles allowing Muslim immigration is an act of supreme folly.

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

[arjunadawn]

Hence, unless there is some sort of a "superpower-clan" to rule them all (sometimes called dictator or absolute monarch with a bad-ass secret police), this is what you get.

There was a superpower-clan in Sodamn Insane and his cronies, but they hung him and the vacuum was duly filled.

Saradoc1972- Great observation. I agree totally. Indeed, most arabs would agree also. And yes, Wooloomooloo, Saddam was dictator and yes, he did rule them. I believe Saradoc1972 is suggesting something even greater, newer, transnational. Without doubt, weakness or compromise lose every single time in this region. Arab/muslims only respond to power! It is a fact both related to the underlying tribal but also the islamic mandate to serve those appointed over you.

[NeverSure]

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

I now lump all Muslims together. The few I've seen resisting the "bad" Muslims appear to be doing it over turf, not over ridding the planet of extremists. They appear to me to define "extremist" as just another extremist who either doesn't agree with them or just as important, won't submit to them.

Edit. I could better say that I now treat all Muslims with suspicion and have my guard up even if some of them might be "moderate."

Edited March 19, 2015 by NeverSure

[Linky]

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

I now lump all Muslims together. The few I've seen resisting the "bad" Muslims appear to be doing it over turf, not over ridding the planet of extremists. They appear to me to define "extremist" as just another extremist who either doesn't agree with them or just as important, won't submit to them.

Edit. I could better say that I now treat all Muslims with suspicion and have my guard up even if some of them might be "moderate."

How do you know a person is muslim?

[Linky]

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

I now lump all Muslims together. The few I've seen resisting the "bad" Muslims appear to be doing it over turf, not over ridding the planet of extremists. They appear to me to define "extremist" as just another extremist who either doesn't agree with them or just as important, won't submit to them.

Edit. I could better say that I now treat all Muslims with suspicion and have my guard up even if some of them might be "moderate."

Many muslim countries have been arresting citizens trying to leave for IS. One country has even reintroduced the death penalty for those trying to join Al Qaeda and IS.

I don't believe those countries are doing this over turf.

[Chicog]

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

I now lump all Muslims together. The few I've seen resisting the "bad" Muslims appear to be doing it over turf, not over ridding the planet of extremists. They appear to me to define "extremist" as just another extremist who either doesn't agree with them or just as important, won't submit to them.

Edit. I could better say that I now treat all Muslims with suspicion and have my guard up even if some of them might be "moderate."

How do you know a person is muslim?

I would say get to know them. Most of them are the same as the rest of us, they want a roof over their head, food in their stomachs, schools and hospitals for their family and the occasional bit of light relief.

In fact I'm just about to go for a beer with a few of them.

Added: Before anyone goes off on one, included will be a Jew called Ebrahim.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Chicog

[Credo]

This may shock you but I generally agree. Though I would add that they should really not blanket all muslims but be more careful of the region they allow them in from.

I now lump all Muslims together. The few I've seen resisting the "bad" Muslims appear to be doing it over turf, not over ridding the planet of extremists. They appear to me to define "extremist" as just another extremist who either doesn't agree with them or just as important, won't submit to them.

Edit. I could better say that I now treat all Muslims with suspicion and have my guard up even if some of them might be "moderate."

You might want to re-think that a little. Quite a few years ago there was some Christian nut who killed a doctor going into an abortion clinic. I didn't see too many people condemning Christianity. He represented a very small number of Christians and had little support.

I've come to treat most people with a degree of suspicion, by the way.