Over-The-Counter Withdrawals Confusion at Bangkok Bank!

[Will2011]

Hello,

I decided to write an email to Bangkok Bank (via internet banking), as I need to make quite a few over-the-counter withdrawals in order to have instant cash over THB30,000. I have a U.S. HSBC Premier Debit Card, so I don't get charged any foreign transaction fees and get MasterCard rates.

However, every time I go to a Bangkok Bank branch (got a saving account there), and ask for a withdraw over-the-counter, I usually get blank looks. As a result, Bangkok Bank employees often end up processing Cash Advance, which is the only term they know. However, I'm not sure if Cash Advance is the same thing as Over-the-Counter withdraw, as the former may carry additional fees.

So, here's my email written in simple english and Bangkok Bank's response below:

"Hello

I'm a Bangkok Bank customer and I would like to make a withdrawal over-the-counter with U.S. HSBC Premier Debit Card so that I can deposit the money right away in my Bangkok Bank account.

However every time I go to a Bangkok Bank Branch to make a withdrawal over-the-counter with my foreign card Bangkok Bank staff don't know what to do and process my request as Cash Advance.

I would like to know what to do and what to ask for if I want to make a withdrawal over-the-counter with my foreign card.
Is Cash Advance the same as withdrawal over-the-counter at Bangkok Bank? Do you have another term for that transaction? "

Answer:

"Thank you for using Bualuang iBanking.

Regarding for your inquiry, please be advised that The Emergencies Cash Advance services for foreigners who hold credit cards issued by foreign banks(International Card). We provide the service in the following credit cards: American Express, Diners Card, Visa Card, Master Card and JCB Card.

You can visit our branches where provide Electronic Data Capture(EDC) service, please contact the branch directly with your valid passport and International Card."

As you can see, this is quite an incomprehensible answer. So, I just wanted to know how you guys make over-the-counter withdrawals. What terms do you employ so that it doesn't get mixed up with Cash Advance?

Thank you

[Pib]

You can just use terminology of cash advance or withdrawal from the card. If necessary just use hand motion indicating you want to take money from your foreign debit or credit card (point to the card) and put it directly into your savings account (point to the passbook). The teller should get the point...they always have with me.

Now you will find some branches are receptive to doing a cash advance (a.k.a.., withdrawal, counter withdrawal, etc) with a debit or credit card. Yes I know a cash advance terminology really applies to a credit card but it's also incorrectly but commonly used when using a debit card. But you will find some branches that will not accept a debit card but do it for a credit card. And if you use a mini-branch like found in malls they may not do it for a debit or credit card since that just not a service many mini-branches are setup to accomplish...instead they'll refer you to a full branch. And there were some recent posts that Siam Commercial Bank (SCB) sent a letter to all their branches to stop doing counter withdrawals for foreign debit cards...but credit cards are still OK.

I do credit card cash advances at both a Bangkok Bank branch and a Krungsri Bank branch and deposit directly into my account in one combo transaction simply because I have a credit card that does not charge a foreign transaction fee nor cash advance fee...right after the withdrawal I come home, log onto my credit card account any pay it in full to avoid in interest charges. I use my credit card for two reasons:

(1) the Bangkok Bank branch which is close to me will not do a cash advance/counter withdrawal for a foreign debit card...they just point you to their ATM...but they will gladly do it for a credit card...done it at least a dozen times over the past year or so...I also tried a Bangkok Bank mini-branch who would not do it for a debit or credit card....they said I need to go to a full service branch. I've only recently done it at the Krungsri Bank branch near me and didn't even ask if they would accept my debit card as I just showed them my credit card....they happily did the withdrawal.

(2) I can withdraw $2,000 with my credit card where my no foreign transaction fee debit cards (which reimburse ATM fees also) only allow $1,000. I still use my no foreign transaction fee debit cards to get money also out of ATMs, but I try not to overdue it to prevent helping to kill the Golden ATM Fee Reimbursement Goose or drawing too much attention to myself with my U.S. banks because of them having to spend too much money on me reimbursing ATM fees...they might try to find a way to overload me as a customer.

One final note, be sure you know what the cash advance daily transaction limit is for your credit card; it will most likely be something much less than your line of credit on the card. Although your card may have a high line of credit, the daily cash advance limit will probably be some amount much less. I made that mistake when first using my credit card for a cash advance...the card has a high line of credit but when I asked for a cash advance of Bt100K (approx $3,125) the transaction rejected as Over Limit...that was embarrassing...I then asked the teller to try it again for Bt60K (approx $1850) and the transaction was approved. Later that night I contact my bank regarding cash advance limits and was told about the $2,000 daily limit...that limit was not mentioned any where on their website or in the docs they sent me regarding the card...just one of those limits you may have to ask about.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Pib

[Will2011]

Hi Pib,

Thanks for the very informative post. It looks like you are using Charles Schwab!

Anyway, do you confirm that using cash advance in Thailand is the same as over the counter withdraw?

[Pib]

Yes...cash advance is same as a counter withdrawal. Counter withdrawal=teller withdrawal=cash advance. And as mentioned although a cash advance is terminology related to a credit card it is still incorrectly but commonly used with debit cards by numerous folks. Basically you are handing the teller behind the counter (or desk) you debit or credit card to get money from that card...if it's a credit card then off course it's a cash advance as that advance is a loan/advance against your line of credit; if it's a debit card it comes directly out of your bank/brokerage account. The teller sticks the credit or debit card in the Point of Service (POS) machine just like at store checkout counters, enters the amount you have requested, and then waits a few seconds to see if it's approved...if approved you get your money.

Yes, I have a Schwab debt card but only use it for ATM withdrawals since the branches I tried so far would do not do counter withdrawals for a foreign debit card but no problem for a credit card. Plus since it only allows $1,000/day, which is approx Bt32.5K, I can get almost that full amount from those ATMs that sill allow Bt30K per withdrawal like Krungsri or TMB ATMs. If wondering what I don't just do that frequently throughout the month well it's because I don't want to test the Schwab Golden Reimbursement Goose too much (i.e., them spend too much money on me in ATM reimbursement fees) and I just hate Thai banks getting that very high ATM Bt180 fee..that fee is just too durn high!

For the credit card I use, I have a couple of Pentagon Federal Credit Union credit cards that do not charge a foreign transaction fee nor cash advance fee....none of the PFCU credit cards carry foreign transaction or cash advance fees...one of the few credit cards out there like this...plus I can get Bt2,000/day with each card....and really, I could get the Bt2,000 at the counter and then turn around and get $1,000 at the ATM same day but PFCU would not reimburse that ATM fee....and like I said I just hate that overpriced ATM going into the profit pockets of Thai banks.

I think the only reason some Thai banks/branches don't want to do debit card counter withdrawals is because of total fees collected--not just from you but also the card network (i.e, Visa/Mastercard) "interchange" fee they collect. The interchange fee is not charged to the customer but is a fee exchanged between the bank processing the transaction (like a local Thai bank) and your home country card-issuing bank. Using the Visa interchange fee for manual/counter or ATM cash disbursement combined with local Thai bank ATM fees, here's how it would work out fee-wise for a Thai bank for a Bt30K withdrawal.

- ATM withdrawal using debit card: $0.50 (Bt16) + 0.15% of Bt30K which is Bt45 plus Bt180 ATM fee = Bt241 in total fees collected.

- Counter withdrawal using debit or credit card: $1.75 (Bt56) + 0.33% of Bt30K which is Bt99 = Bt155.

Note how not being able to charge that high Bt180 ATM fee on a counter withdrawal reduces fees collected from Bt241 to Bt155...banksters don't like lower fees.

So why will some branches not do a counter withdrawal for a debit card but will for a credit card when the fees collected is the same? I expect it's because they know few people will use a credit card to get a cash advance due to healthy (3% typical) cash advance fee charged by the card-issuing bank and in many cases like for U.S. credit cards interest states accruing immediately...and sometimes that interest rate for cash advances is higher than the card's interest rate for purchases. I think some European cards give you a cash advance grace period on interest if paid off promptly like occurs with purchases. Plus if the person uses their credit card in an ATM I don't know of any credit card that reimburses ATM fee like some debit cards do. Since few people will probably use a credit card for a cash advance, whether a counter or ATM withdrawal, Thai banks know few customers will ask to use their credit card for cash advances. And in rejecting "debit" card counter withdrawal requests the Thai bank can lessen that pain of saying no to a customer by simply pointing them to their ATM machine where that debit card can be easily used (and that healthy Bt180 fee collected).

In closing, Thai banks probably don't want to start saying No to debit "and" credit card counter withdrawals because it would just piss-off more customers/tourists and I expect the banks would prefer to make a Bt155 fee versus nothing when some customers/tourists would probably not get any money(even from an ATM) resulting in no fees collected. Banksters they are.

[Will2011]

It's really great to see someone mastering the atm card topic in such a fashion. Thank you very for the expertise.

Since we are talking about fees, I've heard people "buying" thb at exchange rate booths like Bangkok Bank with cards. They say the card rate is applied as opposed to the bank exchange rate. Do you have any insight about that?

[Pib]

It's really great to see someone mastering the atm card topic in such a fashion. Thank you very for the expertise.

Since we are talking about fees, I've heard people "buying" thb at exchange rate booths like Bangkok Bank with cards. They say the card rate is applied as opposed to the bank exchange rate. Do you have any insight about that?

I've never done it so I don't know for sure but I would assume they would get the card network (Visa/Mastercard) exchange rate since the booth would to accomplish the transaction using the card network. Then, then again maybe at booth they then apply another fee like an ATM Bt180 fee to make more profit...or only allow a DCC transaction which gives around 3 to 4% lower. I've never exchanged at a booth using a debit/credit card so I'm guessing/assuming. And whenever using your card for a foreign transaction if your card-issuing bank charges a foreign transaction fee like say 3% then that's going to lower your exchange rate.

[JimGant]

Plus if the person uses their credit card in an ATM I don't know of any credit card that reimburses ATM fee like some debit cards do

Pib, I thought I read on this forum that using a credit card in an ATM machine (where, then, the only option you have is to choose "cash advance") would not generate the 180bt ATM fee. Maybe I misread, as I wasn't really interested in an option that charges a cash advance fee and instant interest (at least for me).

But, as your card has no cash advance fee, plus you pay off your credit card quickly to avoid/minimize interest charges -- what if, indeed, there was no 180bt charge for a credit card used in an ATM machine? Wouldn't that be an option you could use?

I don't even have a PIN (that I know of) for my credit cards, so I can't even test the system (plus my cards do have cash advance fees).

Why not check this out.....? Just one more experiment in your long repertoire of obtaining cash in Thailand.

[Pib]

jim,

You trying to make me mad (and sick at the stomach) by incurring a Bt180 ATM use fee that is not reimbursed....I want to put that off as long as humanly possible.

I seriously doubt the ATM would not charge a Bt180 fee just because it's a credit card. But may some folks who have given it try can give more insight...and hopefully their insight will give enough details like if the ATM fee was not charged what fees/charges may have hit their card-account instead or maybe a lower exchange rate was only offered with a credit card. So many posts seem to leave out those all important details. But I too seem to remember maybe a post or two from an Oz member who had some Oz credit card that somehow didn't incur the Bt180 fee. It's like when looking at the Bangkok Bank fee schedule (since their site has understandable and detailed English compared to many other Thai banks) ATM transactions, where they list the foreign card fees they just say foreign cards; they don't say fee applies just to debit cards...they just say foreign cards which to me means debit, credit, or whatever other category of cards may be out there in our ever-changing financial world. Using a credit card in at ATM is definitely an option, but just like a debit card you'll need to enter the credit card PIN to get through the ATM's front door. ATMs won't do a durn thing for you without a PIN.

By the way, for a counter withdrawal using most U.S. cards, chipped or non-chipped, no PIN is need...it's Signature only just like buying something at Lotus, Big C, etc. But a lot of that depends on whether your particular card-issuing bank allowing Chip & Signature vs Chip & PIN only for cash advances....I think most European debit/credit cards require a PIN entry, but most U.S. credit cards are using Chip & Signature as preference over Chip & PIN, but they can do Chip & PIN also if the POS machine requires Chip & PIN...whatever to make the POS machine (or ATM) happy so it will give you money or allow you to make your purchase.

Yea, I didn't have a clue what my PenFed credit card PINs were without digging-out from my safe the PIN notification envelope they sent me. And I didn't do that until AEON ATMs started charging a fee, I decided I would give a counter withdrawal a first ever try, and for some reason it struck me that PenFed debit cards didn't charge a cash advance fee like almost all other credit cards on Earth. Up until that point I had never-ever given a first thought, much less a second thought, to using a credit card for a cash advance due to that very common 3% cash advance fee even if the card didn't have a foreign transaction fee....and of course no ATM fee reimbursement turned me off also. Thailand can make you do things you never thought you would do.

No, I won't be checking out using my PenFed credit card in the ATM until I get really hard-up and they stop counter withdrawals, because as mentioned it draws the Bt180 ATM use fee as far as I know which credit cards don't reimburse like some debit cards....letting Thai banksters get that Bt180 is just to much for me to stomach. Plus using a pretty teller for doing a counter withdrawal and just having her deposit it directly into my savings account in one combo-type transaction has some advantages (like the view) over my other method I still sometimes use of using my debit card in the ATM, getting cash in-hand, and then sliding over to the Cash Deposit Machine to deposit the funds.

Speaking of counter withdrawals, about time I did another one...I think I'll go to the Krungsri branch in my nearby mall for this withdrawal as the view was better there last time than my previous withdrawal at the Bangkok Bank branch in the mall....but the way branches seem to swap out/move around their tellers and the luck of the queue number you just never know how good (or not so good) the view may be.

// Signed //

Pib -- ATM Fee Intolerant

Edited March 24, 2015 by Pib

[JimGant]

Well, ok. Wouldn't want you to have to go to confession.....

Your mention of going to try Krungsri Bank is a good time to warn newbies about other banks, specifically Siam Commercial Bank.

Click on this link: http://www.scb.co.th/scb_api/history_exchange.jsp?period=15:51:50&year=2015&JobStart=24/03/2015&cur_all=All&fPage=index

Note that SCB's buying TT rate, at 32.37 per US$, is in the ball park with other Thai banks (Bangkok Bank's 3/24 @ 1540 buying TT rate was 32.38). But skip to the bottom of the page:

For Credit Card (Sale Slip) US$1 = 31.77
For Credit Card (Cash Advance) US$1 = 31.27
For Credit Card (Dynamic Currency Conversion)
(clicking on this link gives a DCC rate of 30.91)

Arghhhhh! SCB has a three-tranche DCC platform:

Pure DCC: Ridiculous

Modified POS DCC: Horrible

Modified Cash Advance DCC: Laughable

With Visa's network rate for 3/24 being 32.46, taking a cash advance with your Visa card at SCB will give you almost a 4% hit!!!

Obviously they're kidding, right? Thus, Pib, your mission, should you assume to accept it, is to go get a cash advance from SCB

[MAZ3]

You have to be careful of K Bank,I used an over the counter withdrawal from my(no card fee or currency exchange change)Debit card,straight into my K Bank account.

But I didn't notice the used their exchange rate instead of the Visa exchange rate,very sneaky.

I also enquired at my local Bangkok Branch and was pointed to the Banksters ATM Machine,when I pushed the point of over the counter withdrawal,they said only at a Main branch.

They did however,kindly warn me that there's a 3% exchange fee incurred. So I didn't bother to try.

[Pib]

Well, ok. Wouldn't want you to have to go to confession.....

Your mention of going to try Krungsri Bank is a good time to warn newbies about other banks, specifically Siam Commercial Bank.

Click on this link: http://www.scb.co.th/scb_api/history_exchange.jsp?period=15:51:50&year=2015&JobStart=24/03/2015&cur_all=All&fPage=index

Note that SCB's buying TT rate, at 32.37 per US$, is in the ball park with other Thai banks (Bangkok Bank's 3/24 @ 1540 buying TT rate was 32.38). But skip to the bottom of the page:

For Credit Card (Sale Slip) US$1 = 31.77

For Credit Card (Cash Advance) US$1 = 31.27

For Credit Card (Dynamic Currency Conversion)

(clicking on this link gives a DCC rate of 30.91)

Arghhhhh! SCB has a three-tranche DCC platform:

Pure DCC: Ridiculous

Modified POS DCC: Horrible

Modified Cash Advance DCC: Laughable

With Visa's network rate for 3/24 being 32.46, taking a cash advance with your Visa card at SCB will give you almost a 4% hit!!!

Obviously they're kidding, right? Thus, Pib, your mission, should you assume to accept it, is to go get a cash advance from SCB

Yea, I've noticed those rates at the bottom of the SCB webpage before. At least they are upfront about their exchange rate because you will not find most other Thai banks telling you what their DCC rate is much less apparently a separate rate for a Sales transaction compared to a Cash Advance. But from experience of almost being charged via a DCC transaction numerous times while purchasing something and rejecting it, an easy to remember rule of thumb is estimate approx 4% lower.

And until I saw how SCB broke out a credit card Sales Slip rate and then another Cash Advance, I figured the only other rate a person would be offered vs the card network rate was a DCC rate....but no, SCB has three different possible credit card rates. Hopefully, the rates are "optional" kinda like how DCC is an optional offering sometimes when doing an ATM transaction...and hopefully SCB don't try to give the optional rate offering some deceptive, warm & fussy name like Bank Rate, Home Rate, Local Rate, etc., to fool you into picking that rate vs the just saying No, Give me the card-network (Visa/Mastercard) rate.

Anyway, I've always got the Visa network full rate when using my U.S. no foreign transaction fee credit card to do a cash advance at Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank. Neither bank offers you another rate for a counter withdrawal...they just process your card...and I've always got the full Visa exchange rate right out to the 3d or 4th (or further) decimal place.

The next time I go do a counter withdrawal right after I complete that I may just walk over to an ATM, slide it in, and attempt a money pull and if at any time a Bt180 fee screen pops-up I hit cancel. But I don't want to do that until after the next withdrawal just to avoid the slightest possibility of Visa/PenFed thinking something may be fishy here with Pib getting a cash advance at the counter a few minutes earlier and now trying to get another cash advance via ATM...maybe it's really not that lovable, handsome, and smart Pib but some crook who stole/skimmed his card...let's block access immediately. And for some reason, probably unfounded, I just hate sticking my card into an ATM to do partial money pull tests which I abort just before blastoff (press spit out the money button). Hopefully I get brave due to a continued effect of the previous night's Chang beer, and give it a try.

However, but, I'm don't think I'm brave enough to try a counter withdrawal at SCB because of their various rates on their website that leave questions in my mind....but if I ever do try it at a SCB branch I'll go in sober with eyes wide open and maybe bring along a financial adviser and a lawyer because banksters bear very close watching.

[JimGant]

But I didn't notice the used their exchange rate instead of the Visa exchange rate,very sneaky.

Which Debit/ATM card did you use? There are very few that are completely fee free.

[Pib]

You have to be careful of K Bank,I used an over the counter withdrawal from my(no card fee or currency exchange change)Debit card,straight into my K Bank account.

But I didn't notice the used their exchange rate instead of the Visa exchange rate,very sneaky.

I also enquired at my local Bangkok Branch and was pointed to the Banksters ATM Machine,when I pushed the point of over the counter withdrawal,they said only at a Main branch.

They did however,kindly warn me that there's a 3% exchange fee incurred. So I didn't bother to try.

There is not 3% exchange fee at Bangkok Bank for doing a counter withdrawal...you get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate...I know as I've done a dozen or more such counter withdrawal using my U.S. Visa credit card, a no foreign transaction fee and one of the very few no cash advance fee credit cards. The exchange rate that hits my card-issuing bank credit card account exactly matches the Visa exchange rate.

I going to guess there was a miscommunication/misunderstanding and the Bangkok Bank personnel meant that most people's debit cards carry a 3% foreign transaction fee, and most credit cards carry a 3% foreign transaction fee plus a 3% cash advance fee....but these fees are charged by the card-issuing bank; not the bank you are doing the withdrawal at assuming the bank don't offer and you unknowingly accept a DCC-type transaction which is usually in the 3% lower exchange rate ballpark....kinda like those SCB DCC-type exchange rates.

Seems banksters sure like 3% fees....guess 3 is lucky number for them and completely offsets "free" which sounds like 3.

[Will2011]

As an update, I just wanted to report that I made a cash advance transaction last week, Monday, March 23. As I was in China Town, I came across UOB and decided to give it a try. It was the first time I asked for Cash Advance at UOB and was surprisingly good there. The branch was empty. I was attended by the supervisor who quickly processed my request. Interestingly enough, they didn't have a POS machine. They used instead the good old manual "thing" to copy the card. I withdrew B9,600 after signing the front/back copy of my debit card plus passport. A couple of days after the transaction, I checked my online bank account, which displayed "Cash Withdrawal at Cash Advance UOB" for $296.85. I don't know what the rate was on March 23, but this is a 32.33 rate for this transaction. Not sure it's good though...

On a similar note, while I was at Bangkok Bank yesterday, I heard someone asking for cash advance against credit card for THB 250,000. I am surprised one can do that for such an amount.

[Pib]

Per the Mastercard exchange rate page the rate on 23 March was 32.3395.

Mastercard 23 Mar 15 Exchange Rate

So, as you stated in your opening post you do indeed have a no foreign transaction fee assuming your card-issuing bank (HSBC) didn't include a separate charge applying some fee...but that would have been shown on your account if they had.

I expect Thai banks probably have some limit for over the counter withdrawals but it's "high" whatever it may be. I once asked for a Bt100K counter withdrawal before I knew my card-issuing bank limit per day/transaction was $2,000 (approx Bt65K at the time) for this particular credit card (a no foreign transaction and no cash advance fee card) and the teller ran the transaction without question but it rejected as over limit...that rejection was from my home country bank and not the Thai bank. I then asked to try again for Bt60K and it was processed no problem. Later that day I email my card-issuing bank asking my bank about counter withdrawal limits and they said for counter withdrawals it was $2,000 per day/transaction with this particular card. And I once had an email conversation with a person who had his debit card linked to his "brokerage account" and he supposedly did a counter withdrawal for several hundred thousand baht because his daily limit set by his card-issuing company was $15,000/day.

Yeap, I expect Thai banks have some limit for counter cash advances, but I also expect the typical amount folks would ask for is more affected by the limit set by their card-issuing bank....like maybe a $1,000 or $2,000 limit per day/transaction set by the card-issuing bank.

[rogerpilly]

Hello Everybody,

I would like to give you a fresh update on the subject matter and share a very positive experience.

After reading this wonderful post (thank you again for this) I went to a small Bangkok Bank branch in Bang Tao, Phuket. Take note I am not their customer nor they knew me before. I walked in with my US Visa debit card in hand, show it to a representative and say Can you do cash advance (from reading your post I got the idea this is their favorite word)? He immediately said yes and asked for my passport. I was quite shocked as at least I expected to be told to go outside and use the ATM. A lady came immediately, asked me the amount (30.000 THB), processed the card and took the receipts. Then she did all the copies (passport and card), made me sign everything and gave me the cash. It took me less than 10 minutes. As I also have an Amex card, in the end I asked the lady if they take that card as well, but she said no. I wanted to add this information as the letter published in the OP mentioned Amex as well. I don't know if this limitation apply only to this particular branch or that information is incorrect.

I hope this helps.

Best to all,

Rogerpilly

I forgot to mention, I got the exact VISA exchange rate for today!

Edited January 20, 2016 by rogerpilly