AP Analysis: Is Israel democratic? Not so clear

[Jai Dee]

Enough of the petty bickering thanks.

[mikebike]

Jewish people are legitimately indigenous in Israel.

As are Arab people...

[Scott]

In addition to the bickering, I think we can stop the discussion about apartheid. The thread is about democracy.

[Thorgal]

The Israel Democracy Institute (IDI), a non-partisan Israeli research institute founded in 1991 and based in Jerusalem, has been studying the quality of Israeli democracy and how well it functions.

The result is “The Democracy Index”, a long-term, comparative study of some thirty-one indicators measuring Israeli democracy against that of thirty-five other democracies.

The index includes a public opinion survey component reflecting how Israelis view their democracy : ...

http://www.idi.org.il/english/

[Ulysses G.]

You have been proven wrong, have the grace to at least accept it like an adult

That does not happen with posters like this. They just keep posting inaccurate information and ignoring the fact that every credible source says otherwise.

Israel's Government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Neurath]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Without even getting into the West Bank issue........The very fact that Israel has, officially, "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens" is your first hint at discrimination.

This - like most of what you post - is nonsense. There is no such thing as "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens". ALL Israelis qualify as "citizens of Israel."
There are indications of ethnicity on internal documents just like in USA - black, white, Hispanic as opposed to Arab, Jewish or Christian.

Is Christianity treated as an ethnicity in Israel. Just asking - looks strange.

USA: Black/White/Hispanic

Israel: Jewish/Christian/Arab

[Neurath]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You have been proven wrong, have the grace to at least accept it like an adult

That does not happen with posters like this. They just keep posting inaccurate information and ignoring the fact that every credible source says otherwise.

Israel's Government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain.

Ian Smith could have said he same thing: "Rhodesia's government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Rhodesia isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain". Wouldn't be surprised if Smith did say just that.

Note: not in any way claiming that Israel isn't a democracy.

[Ulysses G.]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You have been proven wrong, have the grace to at least accept it like an adult

That does not happen with posters like this. They just keep posting inaccurate information and ignoring the fact that every credible source says otherwise.

Israel's Government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain.

Ian Smith could have said he same thing:

I did not know that Great Britain has educational and financial qualifications to vote in elections. You learn something new every day.

[Ulysses G.]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Without even getting into the West Bank issue........The very fact that Israel has, officially, "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens" is your first hint at discrimination.

This - like most of what you post - is nonsense. There is no such thing as "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens". ALL Israelis qualify as "citizens of Israel."

There are indications of ethnicity on internal documents just like in USA - black, white, Hispanic as opposed to Arab, Jewish or Christian.

Is Christianity treated as an ethnicity in Israel.

Yes for government records. Also Druze and numerous others.

[ggold]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Without even getting into the West Bank issue........The very fact that Israel has, officially, "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens" is your first hint at discrimination.

This - like most of what you post - is nonsense. There is no such thing as "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens". ALL Israelis qualify as "citizens of Israel."

There are indications of ethnicity on internal documents just like in USA - black, white, Hispanic as opposed to Arab, Jewish or Christian.

Is Christianity treated as an ethnicity in Israel.

Yes for government records. Also Druze and numerous others.

There is even a Christian Kibbutz outside of Acre Northern Israel.

[Thorgal]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Without even getting into the West Bank issue........The very fact that Israel has, officially, "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens" is your first hint at discrimination.

This - like most of what you post - is nonsense. There is no such thing as "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens". ALL Israelis qualify as "citizens of Israel."
There are indications of ethnicity on internal documents just like in USA - black, white, Hispanic as opposed to Arab, Jewish or Christian.

Is Christianity treated as an ethnicity in Israel.

Yes for government records. Also Druze and numerous others.

There is even a Christian Kibbutz outside of Acre Northern Israel.

How many Muslim live/work in a Kibbutz system ?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3554476,00.html

The first Arab was accepted in 2008...as an exception...

[Johpa]

How many Muslim live/work in a Kibbutz system ?

Can't speak for the current situation, but in the 1970s I lived on a kibbutz for a few years and there were always many Muslim Arabs working alongside me. One of my regular field managers (boss) was Arab and I was invited to, and visited, his village several times to celebrate an Eid (end of fast holiday). He had an open invitation to become a member of the kibbutz, but he clearly preferred his own village for both cultural and political-economic reasons: he was no socialist. Many Israeli members of the kibbutz spoke some Arabic. Overall, there was a very good relationship between the kibbutz members and the neighboring Muslim Arab communities. This stood in stark contrast to the city folk, especially the coastal city folks, who had little to no social interaction with Arabs. It was in these towns where one commonly encountered prejudice against Arabs. Of course things change. Back then very few kibbutz members would vote Likud. I was fortunate to have lived in the region before the hatred descended upon the land.

[Neurath]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You have been proven wrong, have the grace to at least accept it like an adult

That does not happen with posters like this. They just keep posting inaccurate information and ignoring the fact that every credible source says otherwise.

Israel's Government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain.

Spot the difference:

A) "Israels Government Structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain": Ulysses G

and

"Rhodesia's Government Structure is based on Great Britain's. If Rhodesia isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain" Ian Smith

[Neurath]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Without even getting into the West Bank issue........The very fact that Israel has, officially, "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens" is your first hint at discrimination.

This - like most of what you post - is nonsense. There is no such thing as "Israeli citizens" and "Arab Israeli citizens". ALL Israelis qualify as "citizens of Israel."
There are indications of ethnicity on internal documents just like in USA - black, white, Hispanic as opposed to Arab, Jewish or Christian.

Is Christianity treated as an ethnicity in Israel.

Yes for government records. Also Druze and numerous others.

So if you're an Christian Arab, how would one's "ethnicity" be recorded? What if a Christian ceased to be a Christian and converted to Islam - would their ethnicity be changed and then recorded differently on 'government records'.

What government records are there that record Christianity as ethnicity? Seems a mighty strange way to classify things. Maybe atheism is an ethnicity also along with Buddhism and Zoroastraism.

[phrodan]

Israel is a democracy for legal citizens of the country. Like most places, the enemy, don't get a vote.

You are hilarious.

The next thing you'll be calling for will be voting rights for only those that agree with you.

[phrodan]

You have been proven wrong, have the grace to at least accept it like an adult

That does not happen with posters like this. They just keep posting inaccurate information and ignoring the fact that every credible source says otherwise.

Israel's Government structure is based on Great Britain's. If Israel isn't a democracy then neither is Great Britain.

Northern Irish IRA members - who qualify as "enemies of the British State," by any definition, where entitled to the vote in UK elections.

Which seems to defeat your argument about not giving votes to the enemy.

[Jingthing]

So if you're an Christian Arab, how would one's "ethnicity" be recorded? What if a Christian ceased to be a Christian and converted to Islam - would their ethnicity be changed and then recorded differently on 'government records'.

What government records are there that record Christianity as ethnicity? Seems a mighty strange way to classify things. Maybe atheism is an ethnicity also along with Buddhism and Zoroastraism.

Why do you care so much?

Why does the world care so much about the internal policies of teeny tiny Israel?

It's really bizarre.

Actually every single nation in the world has it's own unique cultural take on racial/ethnic/religious social classifications.

That's because people are social animals and very complex.

If you think Israel's are strange look at the Dominican Republic.

Look at how Brazil classifies race compared to the USA.

But few people are interested in such things.

Teeny tiny Jewish majority Israel continues to fascinate so many to an absurdly IRRATIONAL degree.

Should Jews be flattered or angry about such unbalanced attention compared to every other thing going on in the world?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[phrodan]

I feel that giving the vote to the West Bank would have an unexpected outcome. It would give voice to the man that just want to get on with life. It's far too easy to write off everyone living on the West Bank as enemies of Israel - just as it was far too easy to believe that every Northern Irish Catholic wanted reunification with the South.

The last time I looked, only 32% of NI Catholics wanted to reunify - a figure that astounds many. Some people seem to believe that every single RC in NI wants to reunify.

BS.

Give people a stake in society and they will react in a positive way.

[Jingthing]

Get real.

Israel is NEVER going to make Arab people in the west bank and gaza Israeli citizens.

Because they aren't.

That would be SUICIDAL.

To obsess about such things is just not keeping it real.

The options now are moving towards a two state solution or Israel going even more right wing.

REALISTIC people of good will support the former.

Israel is not Ireland.

Entirely different factors going on in Israel.

[phrodan]

So if you're an Christian Arab, how would one's "ethnicity" be recorded? What if a Christian ceased to be a Christian and converted to Islam - would their ethnicity be changed and then recorded differently on 'government records'.

What government records are there that record Christianity as ethnicity? Seems a mighty strange way to classify things. Maybe atheism is an ethnicity also along with Buddhism and Zoroastraism.

Why do you care so much?

Why does the world care so much about the internal policies of teeny tiny Israel?

It's really bizarre.

Actually every single nation in the world has it's own unique cultural take on racial/ethnic/religious social classifications.

That's because people are social animals and very complex.

If you think Israel's are strange look at the Dominican Republic.

Look at how Brazil classifies race compared to the USA.

But few people are interested in such things.

Teeny tiny Jewish majority Israel continues to fascinate so many to an absurdly IRRATIONAL degree.

The barrel is now being scraped.

Israel has a disproportionate "influence," on world affairs because the world's sole superpower has a blind spot regarding the country .

The US could easily defuse many of the ongoing disputes by calling Israeli politicians to heel.

And right now many Israeli Firsters are going wild because the have a President that's had enough of Israeli spin and nonsense.

There's also a growing Jewish constituency worldwide that have had enough of it too.

[Jingthing]

So if you're an Christian Arab, how would one's "ethnicity" be recorded? What if a Christian ceased to be a Christian and converted to Islam - would their ethnicity be changed and then recorded differently on 'government records'.

What government records are there that record Christianity as ethnicity? Seems a mighty strange way to classify things. Maybe atheism is an ethnicity also along with Buddhism and Zoroastraism.

Why do you care so much?

Why does the world care so much about the internal policies of teeny tiny Israel?

It's really bizarre.

Actually every single nation in the world has it's own unique cultural take on racial/ethnic/religious social classifications.

That's because people are social animals and very complex.

If you think Israel's are strange look at the Dominican Republic.

Look at how Brazil classifies race compared to the USA.

But few people are interested in such things.

Teeny tiny Jewish majority Israel continues to fascinate so many to an absurdly IRRATIONAL degree.

The barrel is now being scraped.

Israel has a disproportionate "influence," on world affairs because the world's sole superpower has a blind spot regarding the country .

The US could easily defuse many of the ongoing disputes by calling Israeli politicians to heel.

And right now many Israeli Firsters are going wild because the have a President that's had enough of Israeli spin and nonsense.

There's also a growing Jewish constituency worldwide that have had enough of it too.

That is typical GARBAGE that the situation in Israel is responsible for everything bad in the world. Like the Shia and Sunni wouldn't be killing each other if it weren't for Israel. Like China wouldn't have taken over Tibet if it wasn't for Israel. Like Venezuala wouldn't be run by dangerous lefty loonies if it wasn't for Israel. And 1000 more. It makes me want to vomit. The anti-Israel bias is so obvious and so totally irrational. Face it, if Israel wasn't Jewish and was anything else, you wouldn't get that kind of garbage. In fact, people wouldn't even be interested. (Like if Israel was Sunni Arabs and the Palestinians were Shia ... the situation would be considered and would actually be mild compared to many other conflicts.)

Edited March 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[phrodan]

Get real.

Israel is NEVER going to make Arab people in the west bank and gaza Israeli citizens.

Because they aren't.

That would be SUICIDAL.

To obsess about such things is just not keeping it real.

The options now are moving towards a two state solution or Israel going even more right wing.

REALISTIC people of good will support the former.

Israel is not Ireland.

Entirely different factors going on in Israel.

I knew it would be a concept that would defeat you.

It's too easy for your ilk to believe that the West Bank Palestinians are all demons, wishing the destruction of Israel.

The idea that's not true? well - too much for you to comprehend.

But many true Israeli Jews will tell you that they get along great with the West Band Palestinians on a daily basis. True Israeli Jews being the sort that actually served in the IDF and chose to live in the country - unlike many hyper-opinionated American Jews that recoiled from service and would rather die than live in the country.

It's despicable how many of that type there are - I believe you are one of them.

[phrodan]

So if you're an Christian Arab, how would one's "ethnicity" be recorded? What if a Christian ceased to be a Christian and converted to Islam - would their ethnicity be changed and then recorded differently on 'government records'.

What government records are there that record Christianity as ethnicity? Seems a mighty strange way to classify things. Maybe atheism is an ethnicity also along with Buddhism and Zoroastraism.

Why do you care so much?

Why does the world care so much about the internal policies of teeny tiny Israel?

It's really bizarre.

Actually every single nation in the world has it's own unique cultural take on racial/ethnic/religious social classifications.

That's because people are social animals and very complex.

If you think Israel's are strange look at the Dominican Republic.

Look at how Brazil classifies race compared to the USA.

But few people are interested in such things.

Teeny tiny Jewish majority Israel continues to fascinate so many to an absurdly IRRATIONAL degree.

The barrel is now being scraped.

Israel has a disproportionate "influence," on world affairs because the world's sole superpower has a blind spot regarding the country .

The US could easily defuse many of the ongoing disputes by calling Israeli politicians to heel.

And right now many Israeli Firsters are going wild because the have a President that's had enough of Israeli spin and nonsense.

There's also a growing Jewish constituency worldwide that have had enough of it too.

That is typical GARBAGE that the situation in Israel is responsible for everything bad in the world. Like the Shia and Sunni wouldn't be killing each other if it weren't for Israel. Like China wouldn't have taken over Tibet if it wasn't for Israel. Like Venezuala wouldn't be run by dangerous lefty loonies if it wasn't for Israel. And 1000 more. It makes me want to vomit. The anti-Israel bias is so obvious and so totally irrational. Face it, if Israel wasn't Jewish and was anything else, you wouldn't get that kind of garbage. In fact, people wouldn't even be interested. (Like if Israel was Sunni Arabs and the Palestinians were Shia ... the situation would be considered and would actually be mild compared to many other conflicts.)

I didn't blame Israel for any of the things you mentioned.

I fear you are losing the plot.

[Jingthing]

Get real.

Israel is NEVER going to make Arab people in the west bank and gaza Israeli citizens.

Because they aren't.

That would be SUICIDAL.

To obsess about such things is just not keeping it real.

The options now are moving towards a two state solution or Israel going even more right wing.

REALISTIC people of good will support the former.

Israel is not Ireland.

Entirely different factors going on in Israel.

I knew it would be a concept that would defeat you.

It's too easy for your ilk to believe that the West Bank Palestinians are all demons, wishing the destruction of Israel.

The idea that's not true? well - too much for you to comprehend.

But many true Israeli Jews will tell you that they get along great with the West Band Palestinians on a daily basis. True Israeli Jews being the sort that actually served in the IDF and chose to live in the country - unlike many hyper-opinionated American Jews that recoiled from service and would rather die than live in the country.

It's despicable how many of that type there are - I believe you are one of them.

I see that you believe in fairy tales. The truth is a unified state is impossible ... that would be the end of the Zionist purpose of Israel which is a good purpose. Two states is the only answer. Divorce is needed. Marriage is out of the question.

[phrodan]

Get real.

Israel is NEVER going to make Arab people in the west bank and gaza Israeli citizens.

Because they aren't.

That would be SUICIDAL.

To obsess about such things is just not keeping it real.

The options now are moving towards a two state solution or Israel going even more right wing.

REALISTIC people of good will support the former.

Israel is not Ireland.

Entirely different factors going on in Israel.

I knew it would be a concept that would defeat you.

It's too easy for your ilk to believe that the West Bank Palestinians are all demons, wishing the destruction of Israel.

The idea that's not true? well - too much for you to comprehend.

But many true Israeli Jews will tell you that they get along great with the West Band Palestinians on a daily basis. True Israeli Jews being the sort that actually served in the IDF and chose to live in the country - unlike many hyper-opinionated American Jews that recoiled from service and would rather die than live in the country.

It's despicable how many of that type there are - I believe you are one of them.

I see that you believe in fairy tales. The truth is a unified state is impossible ... that would be the end of the Zionist purpose of Israel which is a good purpose. Two states is the only answer. Divorce is needed. Marriage is out of the question.

History has shown many times that previously sworn enemies can come together and live in peace.

This "fairytale," has a track record of reality - and it has more chance of being in reality if big-mouthed service dodgers that have no intention of ever living in the country would learn to shut their mouths and let the people of Israel and the West Bank sort it out among themselves.

Hail. The Statesman.

[Jingthing]

Get real.

Israel is NEVER going to make Arab people in the west bank and gaza Israeli citizens.

Because they aren't.

That would be SUICIDAL.

To obsess about such things is just not keeping it real.

The options now are moving towards a two state solution or Israel going even more right wing.

REALISTIC people of good will support the former.

Israel is not Ireland.

Entirely different factors going on in Israel.

I knew it would be a concept that would defeat you.

It's too easy for your ilk to believe that the West Bank Palestinians are all demons, wishing the destruction of Israel.

The idea that's not true? well - too much for you to comprehend.

But many true Israeli Jews will tell you that they get along great with the West Band Palestinians on a daily basis. True Israeli Jews being the sort that actually served in the IDF and chose to live in the country - unlike many hyper-opinionated American Jews that recoiled from service and would rather die than live in the country.

It's despicable how many of that type there are - I believe you are one of them.

I see that you believe in fairy tales. The truth is a unified state is impossible ... that would be the end of the Zionist purpose of Israel which is a good purpose. Two states is the only answer. Divorce is needed. Marriage is out of the question.

History has shown many times that previously sworn enemies can come together and live in peace.

This "fairytale," has a track record of reality - and it has more chance of being in reality if big-mouthed service dodgers that have no intention of ever living in the country would learn to shut their mouths and let the people of Israel and the West Bank sort it out among themselves.

Hail. The Statesman.

Last time I checked Hamas hadn't changed it's charter. It's genocidal towards Jews antisemitic charter. No comparison to Mandella. Don't insult our intelligence.

I'll ignore your hateful personal totally irrelevant insults.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

For me, with the results of latest elections, I would describe Israel as an ethnic theocratic republic.

Nothing more...

And surely, not a democracy !

Edited March 28, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

For me, with the results of latest elections, I would describe Israel as an ethnic theocratic republic.

Nothing more...

And surely, not a democracy !

Israel has gone more right wing. The voters have voted for that.

It is not a theocracy. It does have some mild theocratic aspects but can't compare to an actual theocracy.

It does feature a majority ethnicity. Jews, as do many other countries have a dominant ethnic group.

Of course it is the one and only nation in the world with a majority demographic of Jews and wishes to remain that way.

For some odd reason, that seems to bother an awful lot of people in the world.

I do agree Israel is not a perfect democracy and is showing troubling signs with the move to the right, which is not new. I wish that the Israelis can improve that for themselves just as I wish the people of Nigeria make their democracy more wonderful, etc. etc. I don't see joining up with bitter enemies who largely want to kick out the Jews or worse as a sensible step if they wish to continue to exist as Israel though.

Israel wasn't created to be Northern California as lovely as that place is.

It was created based on the Zionist movement, a political movement with the the intention to create self determination for Jewish people.

No that has never meant only Jews, as Israel has significant minority groups, but it does mean a large majority of Jewish people.

Compare to many Muslim countries which don't want ANY Jews and many voices from the potential founders of a new Palestinian state that they don't want any Jews either.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[ChiangMike]

Please! show to me one Arab, Muslim or Islamic country which has any kind of Jewish Party - Legal, Registered, participating in elections and still alive!

Please! Put up or shut up!

Genuine political parties in established democracies rarely organise on a strictly religious basis.

Sounds like spin to deflect from what we all know already.There ISN'T one and would not be one, no matter what, but Israel is expected to be perfect. What hypocrisy.

No, yours is the true hypocrisy. There are large Jewish organizations in the U.S. that find Netanyahus management/treatment of Palestine and the West Bank disturbing. Are they anti Semitic?

The first question that has to be answered - is it possible to rationally criticize the expanding settlements without being called anti Semitic? For some it isn't - they cannot get past that or accept any criticism.

Ironically at the California hospital I do contract work for two of my peers who are Jewish were depressed at the election outcome and are certainly against the settlements. One peer though wasn't shy about proclaiming his delight - was he Jewish ? Nope

- he is an old right wing evangelical who has never been to Israel and never met a Palestinian. Mostly harmless guy but thank god he's not in a position of political power.

Anyway - people have to be able to discourse the Middle East without knee jerk reactions.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ChiangMike

[Jingthing]

Of course being against the settlements doesn't make one an antisemite. I'm against them myself. J Street in the U.S. is against them. They make progress towards a two state solution much more difficult.

Anyway, not sure what being pro or anti settlements has to do with the question of whether Israel is a democracy or not.

Israel obviously is a democracy but not a perfect one, like many other countries.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Jingthing