Did my washing machine just shock me?..

[jacko45k]

Yeah I get it off my fridge, it came with a 2 pin plug hence no earth.

I rotated the plug and it actually went away but this isn't really sufficient.

You could ground the washing machine yourself, now the problem is finding 'ground'.

[IMHO]

I've never seen electrical cable in Thailand that has three wires inside the sheath.

No offence, but you haven't seen many cables then

As an example, all of the following in my house were supplied with 3-core cable and earthed plugs (though, several are shucko):

Fridges

Microwave ovens

Toaster

Computers

TV's

Playstation

Washing machine

Clothes dryer

AV Receiver / Mixer / DSP

Powered speakers

Of course you know this though - you said yourself that your washing machine shipped with an earthed plug

[IMHO]

Yeah I get it off my fridge, it came with a 2 pin plug hence no earth.

I rotated the plug and it actually went away but this isn't really sufficient.

You could ground the washing machine yourself, now the problem is finding 'ground'.

Lemme guess- you bought this fridge >= 5 years ago right?

Things have now changed - new ones will ship with a 3-pin plug.

[Forkinhades]

^ I have just purchased mine and it was a molded 2 pin plug.

Latest model as well

[paulchiangmai]

I've never seen electrical cable in Thailand that has three wires inside the sheath.

No offence, but you haven't seen many cables then

As an example, all of the following in my house were supplied with 3-core cable and earthed plugs (though, several are shucko):

Fridges

Microwave ovens

Toaster

Computers

TV's

Playstation

Washing machine

Clothes dryer

AV Receiver / Mixer / DSP

Powered speakers

Of course you know this though - you said yourself that your washing machine shipped with an earthed plug

Me thinks RedQualia is talking about the house wiring, not the leads on appliances, up until several months ago you could not buy three core 1.5/2.5mm cable for wiring a house just as he says, if you wanted an earth this was a separate wire. Three core is now readily available.

[Forkinhades]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

[lopburi3]

Perhaps it was not on display but 3 core wire in normal home size has been available here in Bangkok for many years - I have easily found for the last decade or more.

[kannot]

Many of the above suggestions - those that call for the use of a 3- pinned plug or Schuko plug - are totally useless in case the power socket where you plug in your washing machine does not have an earthing wire part - despite your photo showing a three-hole socket !! Better make sure that the ground hole is connected at all ! I bet a bottle of Jack's that when you open the socket front cover, you will find only two wires!

Your washing machine will have a grounding screw fitting on the backside. Go get a fat (2mm dia.) electric wire and a copper plated grounding rod. Drill a hole into the floor next to the washing machine and hammer the ground rod down by three fourths of its lenght, connect the wire and bingo.

Too ensure being even more safe, wear rubber sole shoes when removing wet clothes from the machine. The shock you caught came from the chromed metal drum inside the machine. The housings of most machines will be laquered and do not carry electric current, only blank metal parts do. After grounding, the problem should be gone. I did the same with our washing machine, it works.

In our condo in the 8th floor of a building, the Thai staff of the Store we bought our washing machine from, hammered a nail into the adjacent wall and connected the ground wire to the nail. They said that this is sufficient. I gave them my thumbs up and said bye bye, I was still laughing like a madman whilst I accompanied them to the exit !! Ok, and after this, I removed the nail and connected the ground wire to our balcony metal rail ! It worked because it was a large rail and well connected to the condo walls, never received a shock from the washing machine as it was properly grounded now.

even better you open it and PULL the earth wire to make sure it actually isnt 10cm stuck in there going nowhere............ really needs testing with a meter as often they go nowhere anyway

[kannot]

Yeah I get it off my fridge, it came with a 2 pin plug hence no earth.

I rotated the plug and it actually went away but this isn't really sufficient.

You could ground the washing machine yourself, now the problem is finding 'ground'.

Lemme guess- you bought this fridge >= 5 years ago right?

Things have now changed - new ones will ship with a 3-pin plug.

Not so I bought one 12 months ago and had to fit my own earth cable to the bolt hole made for it on the back then put the 2 core and earth into some spiral binding to make it look half decent

[Forkinhades]

^ nothing would surprise me here in LOS, but your are indeed correct, it does need testing.

[IMHO]

Perhaps it was not on display but 3 core wire in normal home size has been available here in Bangkok for many years - I have easily found for the last decade or more.

Right - 3 core VAF has been available as long as I can remember, and VCT has been available in anything from 2-4 cores for about the same time

In any case, you only use VAF if the wiring is exposed - in most houses you just use 3x THW in conduit.

[RedQualia]

I've never seen electrical cable in Thailand that has three wires inside the sheath.

No offence, but you haven't seen many cables then

As an example, all of the following in my house were supplied with 3-core cable and earthed plugs (though, several are shucko):

Fridges

Microwave ovens

Toaster

Computers

TV's

Playstation

Washing machine

Clothes dryer

AV Receiver / Mixer / DSP

Powered speakers

Of course you know this though - you said yourself that your washing machine shipped with an earthed plug

No offense, but you should have been able to figure out that I wasn't talking about appliance wires/plugs. I was referring to the stuff you wire homes with. What's called "romex" in the states.

http://www.acmehowto.com/electrical/electrical-wire-romex.php

[RedQualia]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

[bankruatsteve]

I've never seen 3-core - like 2 core 2.5 with ground in the "Romex" either. That's at Home Pro, Global, Do Home, Home Hub. It sounds like it's out there, I just haven't seen it yet. Where do you all get it?

Just saying, it's nothing to pull a separate ground wire and sometimes makes it better to do a ground bus instead of pulling along with every circuit.

[paulchiangmai]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

Do you know that large electrical shop on the 118 a hundred yards past the San Sai market, same side, they have it and just about everything you need in the way of electrics. One man and one lady also speak excellent English. Always cheaper than Global or Home Pro and always good quality stuff. Been dealing with them for years.

[RedQualia]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

Do you know that large electrical shop on the 118 a hundred yards past the San Sai market, same side, they have it and just about everything you need in the way of electrics. One man and one lady also speak excellent English. Always cheaper than Global or Home Pro and always good quality stuff. Been dealing with them for years.

A bit far from where I live, but I do make it out that way now and again. I'll look for that shop next time I go. Thanks!

[Ginkas]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

Had the house re-wired last October.

Electrician took me to Global House (Chiang Mai) and we bought three core cable without any problem.

I also saw three core in Thai Watsadu, so don't know where you were looking.

BTW The electrician insisted on BCC (Bangkok Cable Company) which he said was the best.

He was a bit nonplussed when the wires were Brown, Blue and Green with Yellow stripe.

The label said the 'new' colour system - wonder where they got that from ;-)

[RedQualia]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

Had the house re-wired last October.

Electrician took me to Global House (Chiang Mai) and we bought three core cable without any problem.

I also saw three core in Thai Watsadu, so don't know where you were looking.

BTW The electrician insisted on BCC (Bangkok Cable Company) which he said was the best.

He was a bit nonplussed when the wires were Brown, Blue and Green with Yellow stripe.

The label said the 'new' colour system - wonder where they got that from ;-)

Mostly I go to GlobalHouse near Hang Dong. Have looked for three core many times and never seen it.

Not to worry about the new colour system. There'll be another one next week.

[JohanB]

Yes, thai electric is different!!

A couple of years ago when we returned to our hut in the countryside outside Nakhon Sawan, I had some mysterious readings when I wanted to do an extension to the electric.

I discovered that neutral and live was interchanged. The neutral was at live level 230 VAC.

I'm a 71 years old retired engineer from an electric & elecronic professions with 50 years in the business, so I know how to recognize....

The reason, that I found out later , was that the power lines from the street was cut by a blown-down tree and the repair crew had interchanged the 2 black 16mm2 power cords feeding our house.

If I had the PEN connection in my central unit (CU), all the "earthed" appliancies would have carried mains 230VAC on their outsides.

Everyone in the shower or touching computers, washing machine etc (standing on a wet floor) would have been electrocuted!!!

I think Crossy, when thinking about this, can make some more cruel scenaries about how switched cables & "cut neutral" and how the fuses work with switched cables and more etc....

As I was thinking and concidering this, I decided not to make any connection between neutral and ground in our new house.

I more belive that a T-T (Terre-Terre) network, with a good ground-rod (hammered down in moisture ground preferebly close to the septic) connected to all grounded outlets and let the neutral floating, in combination with a (or 2 in series if you don't trust one) RCD's will be the most safe installation.

You can never trust the neutral to be multiple grounded (MEN) in thai networks, as most ground rods along the streets have been corroded away.

(A popular way to save money on the electric bills by thai's, is to cut the neutral before the meter and connect it to the closest pole ground rod)

Even if you apply your own ground rod, it will corrode quickly by the offset currents if there is no reliable rods in the neghtbourhood.

I have up to 11 VAC at low impedance in the neutral.

Better to anticipate you have the 230VAC lines floating above ground voltage.

I concidered a PEN connected central unit is dangerous to use if you are not connected to a stable city network, where neutral/live are never subject to change and a cut neutral is never expected!! And the eart path is measured for impedance!!

You should never-never-never install a CU with PEN connection without farang electrical professional advices.

And of course never-never-never-never make a neutral-earth connection in an outlet.......

Consider all thai country networks with over-head cables are not reliable in this wiev!! (to my experiance)

[IMHO]

I've never seen electrical cable in Thailand that has three wires inside the sheath.

No offence, but you haven't seen many cables then

As an example, all of the following in my house were supplied with 3-core cable and earthed plugs (though, several are shucko):

Fridges

Microwave ovens

Toaster

Computers

TV's

Playstation

Washing machine

Clothes dryer

AV Receiver / Mixer / DSP

Powered speakers

Of course you know this though - you said yourself that your washing machine shipped with an earthed plug

No offense, but you should have been able to figure out that I wasn't talking about appliance wires/plugs. I was referring to the stuff you wire homes with. What's called "romex" in the states.

http://www.acmehowto.com/electrical/electrical-wire-romex.php

Sorry, considering that 3-core VAF, and Green colored THW have been available since I was a baby, I thought you must have been talking about your appliances

[paulchiangmai]

Yes 3 core is readily available, in flat ( similar to twin and earth, but the earth is insulated), and flexible (round) has been for quite some time.

Have never found it in the Chiang Mai area. Doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere. Last time I bought any was at GlobalHouse about a month ago. No "three core" anywhere to be seen.

Do you know that large electrical shop on the 118 a hundred yards past the San Sai market, same side, they have it and just about everything you need in the way of electrics. One man and one lady also speak excellent English. Always cheaper than Global or Home Pro and always good quality stuff. Been dealing with them for years.

A bit far from where I live, but I do make it out that way now and again. I'll look for that shop next time I go. Thanks!

Should have said on the 118 heading towards Doi Saket. Not that far from Global in fact, perhaps 5 ks.

[Sophon]

Do you have a double socket to plug into ?

If so you could use just the earth cable in one.

So 2 plugs side by side, one will take the L & N, other will take the earth.

I do have double sockets at both places, and if I understand you correctly you are suggesting I just fit a single pin to the earth wire and plug that into the earth receptacle? If so, I don't think I have to use the second socket as both plugs are of the flat type, so there should be room for both plug and the separate earth pin in one socket. Can you buy single pins, or would I have to cannibalise a plug to get the pin?

I will do as you suggest, but a nice adapter would look neater (not that it matters that much since it will be behind the fridge/freezer).

Sophon

I would also make sure that your shower water heaters are correctly earthed as this can be a certain killer.

Don't worry, I installed all the electrics myself (with a lot of help from the knowledgeable people on this forum) so I know that the water heaters are properly grounded.

Sophon

[Morakot]

No ground.. Thanks for the help guys.

For how to change the plug, see here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/813030-changing-plugs-for-your-appliances

[Crossy]

+1 ^^^, but you will have to turn your outlets through 180^o.

[JohanB]

+1 ^^^, but you will have to turn your outlets through 180^o.

Hi Crossy,

Please judge and comment my post 109 in this thread.

I know you are serious and as I'm not certified for electric installations in UK, I would like to have your comments about my post.

BR JohanB

[Crossy]

@JohanB

Agreed, the issues with an open neutral in a TNC-S system are well known and documented, that's why (at least in theory) the neutral is earthed regularly in an overhead TNC-S system (every 3rd pole).

Reversed L/N is also an issue as it's possible that any 'earthed' metalwork will head in the direction of mains voltage. Alarming and with no protection device in circuit ........

Of course neither should happen, but considering where we are, both are a possibility.

Removing the N-E connection will mitigate either of the above, BUT will leave you at the mercy of your RCD functioning, they are not 100% (or anything like 100%) reliable and do fail due to surges (remember we are in a high-lightning country). A failed RCD leaves you with significantly reduced protection against shock as a basic TT system likely won't have a low enough earth resistance to open any but the smallest MCB - add more rods and actually measure your earth resistance.

The idea of TNC-S is to provide a metallic path back to the transformer star-point, a L-E short will immediately open the MCB even if the RCD is dead.

It really a personal decision, rely on the RCD or belt and braces with N-E link and risk the possibility of the neutral going open / reversed polarity. Personally we do have the N-E link.

Also, note that an installation which does not have incoming neutral connected to the earth rod in the approved manner will not pass the MEA / PEA inspection for a permanent supply.

This document shows how PEA expect you to connect up http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf see how the incoming neutral goes via the ground bar before the incoming MCB.

As it happens I was worried about the same issues when we built our place. I arranged for an incoming supply box with the main MCB complete with N-E link, but then used a separate distribution board which has the ground rod connected to the earth bar. A single 16mm² cable joins the two earths, it satisfied the PEA man and is easy to remove the link.

Having met the local supply chaps I decided not to remove the link as they appeared competent and well trained (famous last words I know).

[paulchiangmai]

@JohanB

Agreed, the issues with an open neutral in a TNC-S system are well known and documented, that's why (at least in theory) the neutral is earthed regularly in an overhead TNC-S system (every 3rd pole).

Reversed L/N is also an issue as it's possible that any 'earthed' metalwork will head in the direction of mains voltage. Alarming and with no protection device in circuit ........

Of course neither should happen, but considering where we are, both are a possibility.

Removing the N-E connection will mitigate either of the above, BUT will leave you at the mercy of your RCD functioning, they are not 100% (or anything like 100%) reliable and do fail due to surges (remember we are in a high-lightning country). A failed RCD leaves you with significantly reduced protection against shock as a basic TT system likely won't have a low enough earth resistance to open any but the smallest MCB - add more rods and actually measure your earth resistance.

The idea of TNC-S is to provide a metallic path back to the transformer star-point, a L-E short will immediately open the MCB even if the RCD is dead.

It really a personal decision, rely on the RCD or belt and braces with N-E link and risk the possibility of the neutral going open / reversed polarity. Personally we do have the N-E link.

Also, note that an installation which does not have incoming neutral connected to the earth rod in the approved manner will not pass the MEA / PEA inspection for a permanent supply.

This document shows how PEA expect you to connect up http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf see how the incoming neutral goes via the ground bar before the incoming MCB.

As it happens I was worried about the same issues when we built our place. I arranged for an incoming supply box with the main MCB complete with N-E link, but then used a separate distribution board which has the ground rod connected to the earth bar. A single 16mm² cable joins the two earths, it satisfied the PEA man and is easy to remove the link.

Having met the local supply chaps I decided not to remove the link as they appeared competent and well trained (famous last words I know).

Crossy, I see some contributors are talking about using plugs and sockets from other countries in their Thai electrical systems. In the case of Australian plugs for example be aware that looking from the wire side it starts off with earth and then going CLOCKWISE live and then neutral, Thai plugs going clockwise start with earth and then neutral followed by live. Outlets are also reversed. This is certainly the case using Australian equipment and maybe [but I don't know] equipment from other countries. This is probably the reason people talk about 'reversing current'. Would be interested in your comments on this Crossy.

[Forkinhades]

Reversed polarity is commonplace in LOS. As long as your DB is connected correctly, there should be no issues. Just take a look at all your thai 2 pin sockets, they can be plugged in either way.

If you are using UK plugs that have a fuse in them, then polarity becomes more important.

With Schneider products their universal socket terminals are different from the 'thai' standard, and indeed different within their same products that are sold here. I will post some pictures later.

[greenchair]

I am sorry to butt in on the washing machine thing.

But I have one of those electric heaters for my shower. When I put my arm up .it is above the shower head and near the box , I can feel a slight numbing sensation and it feels like an electric current. I just don't put my hand up anymore. And don't have any problem now. Is my family in danger??

I've never seen electrical cable in Thailand that has three wires inside the sheath. Only two. Grounding an appliance, then, almost always involves running an additional relatively thin ground wire. Looking at your water heater, you should see a "fat" cable leaving the box, as well as a thin wire. If there's a thin wire, that should be the ground wire.

To be more certain, however, pop the cover off the water heater and look at the electrical connections. You'll see two wires at least, going to screws that are probably labeled "L" and "N." If you're lucky, there will be a third connector in a bank of connectors for the ground wire. If there's a wire connected, then there's a "good chance" that it's properly grounded. But ground wires can sometimes be attached elsewhere... To one or another screw located here or there inside the box. The important thing is to find three wire connections inside, and to see that they leave the box. Again, a good chance it's properly grounded.

If you find three wires, then follow the cables that leave the box and see where they go. If the ground wire isn't connected to anything on the other end, it's not grounded.

Make sure it's grounded, or get it grounded. You don't really want yourself or any family member to be standing in water waiting for an electrical shock.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all that.

I will have a look tomorrow.

[crazygreg44]

From my experience so far with Thai electrical installations, there is probably not an earth ground installed anywhere at the home. As long as 3 wires are going from the electrical panel to each socket with 3 pins, the best solution is to ground the whole electrical system. This can be done with one copper ground rod and 00 gauge copper wire. More than likely this will not be the case. Most installations have only 2 wires ran and the ground pin is a decoration. In that case the previous posts about grounding the washing machine separately would be the best solution. And to the poster who grounded his WM to the rails on the condo balcony, You are aware that any current that goes to ground by whatever fault will pass through this rail and anything else metal that it is connected to. So if a fault occurred and all 240 volts went to ground you have created a high amperage electric fence. Your neighbor goes out to look off the balcony, leans against the rail, and is instantly electrocuted. I would suggest you re-examine your "solution" before someone else pays for your mistake.

. . . . .absolutely right, and I must say, I like the word "decoration" to describe the extra pin which suggests that there is an earthed cable.... This is typical Thailand . .TITT !!

The balcony rail posing a danger - i never thought of this. There are quick blow circuit breakers connected to the main circuit and the rail has a few layers of paint which act as a bit of isolation. In the 8th floor of a condo there are not many options to run a copper rod down. Connecting the ground strap to a nail in the Wall was what the Thai electrician did. On a ground floor I would of course run the copper rod into the earth and connect the WM separately. The nail in the wall method didn't actually have any effect - we received shocks from the WM nevertheless. The balcony rail connection worked. Maybe this explains the many members of the Pattaya Balcony Flying Club - do they all have washing machines on their balconies and came up with the same idea as me?