Alone at controls, co-pilot sought to 'destroy' the plane

[NeverSure]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.

There's always the risk of human failure. What if the sky marshall is the one who goes postal?

The more people you add to the equation, the more chances are that you have a nut onboard.

There is no secure solution and flying is still incredibly safe.

[micmichd]

BS.

The more people you add to the equation the more likely you have a no-nut on board.

[manarak]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.

4-6 security on all international French flights? 555

you have been pranked!

how could you believe this ridiculous claim?

besides that, it is dangerous to give the skymarshal the authority to open the cockpit door. for what?

better would be to implement an override from the ground.

Edited March 31, 2015 by manarak

[NanLaew]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.

4-6 security on all international French flights? 555

you have been pranked!

how could you believe this ridiculous claim?

besides that, it is dangerous to give the skymarshal the authority to open the cockpit door. for what?

better would be to implement an override from the ground.

Pranked?

Every Air France flight out of west Africa that I boarded had a team of fit looking guys in grey slacks and blue shirts with epaulets that did a very thorough secondary search of all carry-on baggage on trestle tables set up on the tarmac between the shuttle bus and the stairs to the airplane. They were not part of the cabin crew and were only seen again wearing smart dark blue blazers as we deplaned in CDG. No name tags, no insignia. I have also seen them as part of the crew on AF flights in and out of the continental US but there was no secondary bag search as the TSA one is probably adequate. I am not claiming they are armed and on every single flight but they ARE additional security. Pretty ridiculous huh?

If the equivalent of a US sky marshal was the ONLY one with the 'key' for the cockpit door and this situation arose on the 1% of US flights that probably have one onboard, the whole incident could have been avoided, the Captain given access and the FO restrained. Here's a quote, "The job of a federal air marshal is nothing more than watching the cockpit door," says Clay Biles, a former Navy SEAL who spent five years as a federal air marshal and is the author of a book about FAMS called Unsecure Skies.

In the unlikely event that a sky marshal does 'go postal' then we know exactly who did. The people on the ground won't know who's the good guy or bad guy if something bad happens at 38,000 feet so how can they be given the 'key'? Right now there's the nutjob conspiracy theorists suggesting that the Germanwings Captain did it. There's been approximately 5 aircraft crashes in about 25-30 years that have been directly or indirectly attributed to unstable pilots committing suicide? That's five too many IMHO.

What do you suggest?

[manarak]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.

4-6 security on all international French flights? 555

you have been pranked!

how could you believe this ridiculous claim?

besides that, it is dangerous to give the skymarshal the authority to open the cockpit door. for what?

better would be to implement an override from the ground.

Pranked?

Every Air France flight out of west Africa that I boarded had a team of fit looking guys in grey slacks and blue shirts with epaulets that did a very thorough secondary search of all carry-on baggage on trestle tables set up on the tarmac between the shuttle bus and the stairs to the airplane. They were not part of the cabin crew and were only seen again wearing smart dark blue blazers as we deplaned in CDG. No name tags, no insignia. I have also seen them as part of the crew on AF flights in and out of the continental US but there was no secondary bag search as the TSA one is probably adequate. I am not claiming they are armed and on every single flight but they ARE additional security. Pretty ridiculous huh?

If the equivalent of a US sky marshal was the ONLY one with the 'key' for the cockpit door and this situation arose on the 1% of US flights that probably have one onboard, the whole incident could have been avoided, the Captain given access and the FO restrained. Here's a quote, "The job of a federal air marshal is nothing more than watching the cockpit door," says Clay Biles, a former Navy SEAL who spent five years as a federal air marshal and is the author of a book about FAMS called Unsecure Skies.

In the unlikely event that a sky marshal does 'go postal' then we know exactly who did. The people on the ground won't know who's the good guy or bad guy if something bad happens at 38,000 feet so how can they be given the 'key'? Right now there's the nutjob conspiracy theorists suggesting that the Germanwings Captain did it. There's been approximately 5 aircraft crashes in about 25-30 years that have been directly or indirectly attributed to unstable pilots committing suicide? That's five too many IMHO.

What do you suggest?

You left out the decisive detail "West Africa" in your original story, which is still wrong: Air France doesn't have a 4 to 6 person security detail on all its international flights, but only on very few particularly dangerous routes.

Regarding establishing contact with the ground from the cabin, I reckon the cabin should be equipped with its own comms so authorized personnel (security personnel or cabin staff) to contact ground control independently from the cockpit.

Edited March 31, 2015 by manarak

[kiwikeith]

http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1026261.html

For those who understand German:

Attorney's press conference - live stream - on www.spiegel.de

Delayed.

News from the press conference:

Lubitz was suicidal when he was medically treated several years ago before he got his pilot's license.

Authorities are still beating about the bush regarding what Lubitz was currently under treatment for, they just said that the nature of his illness was not "organic", i.e. he was not physilogically ill.

Just heard this morning news TV3NZ that Lubitz told Lufthansa he was being treated for psychological problems in 2009, he was also on medication for psychological suicidal tendencies.

Now how he came to be in a cockpit needs a lot of answering, I see a big law suit here and hope the families pursue one.

Qantas airways and Air NZ have now both taken action to have 2 in the cockpit at all times and are training cabin crew in case they need to be one of them.

A flight engineer might solve that, having three in there is common sense in these troubled times even if not technically needed and will make many flyers comfortable.

Air NZ also has told airlines that any who enter NZ airspace must have 2 in the cockpit.

[Mosha]

It would seem at least 1 pilot had concerns.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/dutch-emirates-captain-predicted-french-alps-crash/ar-AAag5c7

Edited March 31, 2015 by Mosha

[F4UCorsair]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.

There's always the risk of human failure. What if the sky marshall is the one who goes postal?

The more people you add to the equation, the more chances are that you have a nut onboard.

There is no secure solution and flying is still incredibly safe.

Flying is still safer than driving to the airport.

[Mosha]

I hear that images and videos from inside the cabin have been found on cell phones. I hope they remain unavailable to the public.

[slightlychilled]

Some of you forget that airlines went down different routes after 9/11. Some airlines had hidden cameras fitted in the free space between cockpit and passenger cabin filming all angles in front of the cockpit door. Both pilots provided with a screen showing exactly who was wanting to enter the cockpit. The cheaper option, taken by many airlines, was to leave the "peep-hole" method in the door with vision limited to directly in front of the door but not to either side. In the latter case a second person had to be in the cockpit otherwise there would be nobody at the controls if the remaining pilot had to get up to see who wanted to come in.

Bear in mind that both methods were introduced for stopping unauthorised entry to the cockpit and not for foiling lunatics in their acts of madness. IMO the camera method as employed by Lufthansa / German Wings is by far the more efficient and productive method for this purpose.

Edited March 31, 2015 by slightlychilled

[paully]

I hear that images and videos from inside the cabin have been found on cell phones. I hope they remain unavailable to the public.

Yes, details published in Bild and Paris Match, link to the latter here (not very nice reading and confirming that most passengers were aware of something going disastrously wrong several minutes before the crash):

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774

[micmichd]

Mr. Lubitz put on an oxygen mask while committing suicide?

[paully]

Er no, just before he committed suicide.

[micmichd]

Sorry, you put on an oxygen mask if you want to survive.

I guess this maniac wanted to play the game of chicken against the autopilot, his actual intention was to get the ultimate control on flight U4 9525. Maybe no intention to destroy the airplane or kill the passengers.

Blame it on the management, they should have tried to find another challenge for him.

Psychologists should take into consideration the possibly that humans might start to fight a system they consider inhumane.

And the software developers should have also take this into account.

Edited April 1, 2015 by micmichd

[Scott]

I was recently on a flight and the plane had one of those cameras on the outside where you could see what was happening. While in the sky, it's not very interesting, but I did note that some people had left it on. It would be terrifying to watch this unfold on such a screen. Does anybody know if those planes had these in the plane.

[micmichd]

Airbus A380 have such a flight camera.

[paully]

I guess this maniac wanted to play the game of chicken against the autopilot, his actual intention was to get the ultimate control on flight U4 9525. Maybe no intention to destroy the airplane or kill the passengers.

Possibly, yes, he may not have deliberately intended to kill them all when he reprogrammed the automatic pilot to descend. He may even have been in a sort of trance or automatic state, we'll never know exactly.

[kjhbigv]

So, the evidence is now pretty conclusive, everyone agree?

Would like to hear the views of the conspiracy theorist's, if there are any?

1. The Co-pilot had been signed off sick, he was not fit to fly a plane. He had also had mental issues in the past.

2. The Co-pilot had relationship issues (confirmed by his GF, who also confirmed he had "issues").

3. The cockpit voice recorder quite clearly shows that he would not open the door but was alive and breathing.

4. The cockpit voice recorder recorded the Pilot trying to get in the cockpit and passengers screaming.

4. His house was found with all sorts of evidence including medications, letters etc.

5 The plane made a controlled and deliberate descent until it crashed.

6. The plane data recorder backs up the above.

I think this crash has actually silenced the conspiracy theorist's for once, which is a refreshing change, just a case of an "unstable" co-pilot losing the plot and crashing the plane and I am sure there will be a similar outcome with MH370, when they eventually find it.

Edited April 12, 2015 by kjhbigv

[wooloomooloo]

I guess this maniac wanted to play the game of chicken against the autopilot, his actual intention was to get the ultimate control on flight U4 9525. Maybe no intention to destroy the airplane or kill the passengers.

Possibly, yes, he may not have deliberately intended to kill them all when he reprogrammed the automatic pilot to descend. He may even have been in a sort of trance or automatic state, we'll never know exactly.

Mass murder was the intention and the co-pilot absolved himself of all responsibility in the process. Simple.

[micmichd]

Too simple.

How to avoid that this will happen again?

[MrY]

Too simple.

How to avoid that this will happen again?

Simple. Take the pilots out of the equation. Then the crashes won't be pilot's fault any more...

[micmichd]

Too simple.

There's other people engaged in aviation, people that are not on board. Flight controllers eg.

What about sabotage?

A bomb threat could cause losses or damage to an aviation company, eg.

Don't believe it?

Here's an example:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-flight-4u826-evacuated-after-5508545

Good morning.

[Diddl]

So, the evidence is now pretty conclusive, everyone agree?

Would like to hear the views of the conspiracy theorist's, if there are any?

1. The Co-pilot had been signed off sick, he was not fit to fly a plane. He had also had mental issues in the past.

2. The Co-pilot had relationship issues (confirmed by his GF, who also confirmed he had "issues").

3. The cockpit voice recorder quite clearly shows that he would not open the door but was alive and breathing.

4. The cockpit voice recorder recorded the Pilot trying to get in the cockpit and passengers screaming.

4. His house was found with all sorts of evidence including medications, letters etc.

5 The plane made a controlled and deliberate descent until it crashed.

6. The plane data recorder backs up the above.

I think this crash has actually silenced the conspiracy theorist's for once, which is a refreshing change, just a case of an "unstable" co-pilot losing the plot and crashing the plane and I am sure there will be a similar outcome with MH370, when they eventually find it.

If a “conspiracy theorist” is someone who has a difference of opinion, then I stand guilty. The reason why there are no more alternative contributions to this forum is that the majority don’t want to hear and also it seems to be against the rules of the forum. You have made up your minds regardless of other possibilities, so why bother wasting energy on those who do not want to hear.

I do have further information, important information and another possibility, so for those who are interested, please PM me as I don’t want to waste my time on this forum.

[F4UCorsair]

Too simple.

How to avoid that this will happen again?

Simple. Take the pilots out of the equation. Then the crashes won't be pilot's fault any more...

It's interesting that those crashes that are attributed to 'pilot error' receive a great deal of publicity.

We never hear of the aircraft that are saved by pilots, and there have been many. I'd suggest far more than have been lost to pilot error.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Chicog]

So, the evidence is now pretty conclusive, everyone agree?

Would like to hear the views of the conspiracy theorist's, if there are any?

1. The Co-pilot had been signed off sick, he was not fit to fly a plane. He had also had mental issues in the past.

2. The Co-pilot had relationship issues (confirmed by his GF, who also confirmed he had "issues").

3. The cockpit voice recorder quite clearly shows that he would not open the door but was alive and breathing.

4. The cockpit voice recorder recorded the Pilot trying to get in the cockpit and passengers screaming.

4. His house was found with all sorts of evidence including medications, letters etc.

5 The plane made a controlled and deliberate descent until it crashed.

6. The plane data recorder backs up the above.

I think this crash has actually silenced the conspiracy theorist's for once, which is a refreshing change, just a case of an "unstable" co-pilot losing the plot and crashing the plane and I am sure there will be a similar outcome with MH370, when they eventually find it.

If a “conspiracy theorist” is someone who has a difference of opinion, then I stand guilty. The reason why there are no more alternative contributions to this forum is that the majority don’t want to hear and also it seems to be against the rules of the forum. You have made up your minds regardless of other possibilities, so why bother wasting energy on those who do not want to hear.

I do have further information, important information and another possibility, so for those who are interested, please PM me as I don’t want to waste my time on this forum.

Come on don't be shy, if you have access to special information to which we are not privy, please tell us.

Is it the "the plane was brought down by hackers" one?

Or the "It's all a plot by the government and drug companies to make us kill ourselves" one?

Or do you have something even further from the established facts?

[hawker9000]

So, the evidence is now pretty conclusive, everyone agree?

Would like to hear the views of the conspiracy theorist's, if there are any?

1. The Co-pilot had been signed off sick, he was not fit to fly a plane. He had also had mental issues in the past.

2. The Co-pilot had relationship issues (confirmed by his GF, who also confirmed he had "issues").

3. The cockpit voice recorder quite clearly shows that he would not open the door but was alive and breathing.

4. The cockpit voice recorder recorded the Pilot trying to get in the cockpit and passengers screaming.

4. His house was found with all sorts of evidence including medications, letters etc.

5 The plane made a controlled and deliberate descent until it crashed.

6. The plane data recorder backs up the above.

I think this crash has actually silenced the conspiracy theorist's for once, which is a refreshing change, just a case of an "unstable" co-pilot losing the plot and crashing the plane and I am sure there will be a similar outcome with MH370, when they eventually find it.

If a “conspiracy theorist” is someone who has a difference of opinion, then I stand guilty. The reason why there are no more alternative contributions to this forum is that the majority don’t want to hear and also it seems to be against the rules of the forum. You have made up your minds regardless of other possibilities, so why bother wasting energy on those who do not want to hear.

I do have further information, important information and another possibility, so for those who are interested, please PM me as I don’t want to waste my time on this forum.

"I do have further information, important information and another possibility, so for those who are interested, please PM me as I don’t want to waste my time on this forum."

And don't think that's not appreciated!

[ravip]

But a decision to take 150 petrified people of all ages into those final moments of 'pissed off with the world''ness, takes a unique kind of c**t in this world,

The human brain is such I dont think ANY doctor or psychiatrist could could predict 100% how it would act in the next few seconds or minutes, leave alone days.

But when a mentally disturbed person takes a decision such as this, I dont think he even realizes what he is doing in a rational way.

A mentally disturbed person should not even be given to handle a car, let alone a huge aircraft, IMHO

[hawker9000]

But a decision to take 150 petrified people of all ages into those final moments of 'pissed off with the world''ness, takes a unique kind of c**t in this world,

The human brain is such I dont think ANY doctor or psychiatrist could could predict 100% how it would act in the next few seconds or minutes, leave alone days.

But when a mentally disturbed person takes a decision such as this, I dont think he even realizes what he is doing in a rational way.

A mentally disturbed person should not even be given to handle a car, let alone a huge aircraft, IMHO

Well of course not. The problem is identifying such a person before he commits the murder-suicide ... without catching crowds of perfectly normal, mentally healthy, people in the same fishing net. Apparently it's not as exact a science as we would like it to be. When your anti-virus software erroneously identifies something on your PC as malware, we put up with the false-positive because it's better than no protection at all, and the only downside is some inconvenience. But here we're dealing with people, and a "false positive" could easily ruin someone's reputation and employability, or even deprive them of their liberty, without cause.

In this case, the bad actor apparently was known to a relevant medical professional, who apparently wasn't aware that his client was a commercial pilot. So the simple solution might be to suggest that doctors must identify all such patients to the government. But when we destroy doctor-patient confidentiality by doing this, we then have the problem of people avoiding needed mental healthcare because they don't want to be "informed on".

It's usually counter-productive to flail at complex problems with simple solutions.