Growing fish as a Hobby.

[leo202]

My wife buys her fish from the department of fisheries, they give her receipt with her name and address on, sometimes I feed them sometimes she feeds them. Some she eats, some go to the family the rest sell's up to her.

Great advice for the OP -- have the wife buy all the supplies for the little hobby and be sure she gets receipts.

Only the fish, 300 bhat.

[Tomtomtom69]

Will be growing and breeding Tilapia Fish. Grown for eating

I am sure you would be putting yourself in jeopardy. If you do ANYTHING in Thailand you can be busted for doing work without a permit. This is the principle that the Thai nation holds against you. If it is work then you should hire a Thai to do it. IF it is something that No Thais have expertise in doing - then Rule #1 applies.

If a neighbor sees you tending your garden or tinkering with your ride they can report you to the authorities. If you put the project in your wife's name then you have to have a permit to work as her advisor.

It would take a pretty sick person to report someone for mowing their own lawn or cutting a few branches off their OWN tree. Nowhere does it say one can't run their own errands, mow their own lawn, brush their own teeth, flush their own toilet etc.

If you do any of those things for someone else then yes, it's working. But not for yourself. I didn't know there was a law that states that when a foreigner comes to Thailand they have to become stupid and lazy and have to hire someone for every little thing they do in their daily lives.

[Tomtomtom69]

A guy who made a boat as a hobby, got into trouble regarding work permit!

If I recall correctly it was boats not a a boat. And he was selling them.

I remember the same story, but somehow it did not matter according to immigration. It was still considered work.

In my 25+ years in Asia, only Thailand has such stringent labor laws. In Thailand, "work" is a four letter word.

You could be right. I've lived, worked and travelled extensively throughout the entire region, with more than 20 trips to Myanmar and a similar number of trips to Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, as well as time spent living in south-western China (Yunnan province). In all these countries, it is common to see westerners running businesses such as restaurants and bars, and being allowed to work in them. Westerners cook your food, make your drinks, talk to the patrons, take your order, bring you your food, give you travel advice. They employ local staff as well but the more "hands on" owners/managers do a lot of the small things themselves.

Not in Thailand. Apparently a westerner taking orders at his OWN restaurant or bar is subject to arrest if caught. They are supposed to own the restaurant in name only and employ 4 Thais or Thai looking people (Burmese etc. on a labour visa) to do everything while they are expected to relax and drink beer from the time they get up to the time they go to sleep. What a f**** joke.

[Tomtomtom69]

Cooking your own breakfast is work too. So is mowing your lawn. Unfortunately there is very little to protect you from the opinion of immigration as to what they will consider work. The best thing to do is to hire people when you can, and don't piss anyone off.

So where can I hire someone to brush my teeth or flush my toilet? Or make my bed, put my laundry in the laundry basket? Or turn on the tap every time I need to use it?

If cooking your own breakfast or mowing your own lawn are work, so are the above things I've mentioned.

Get a grip will you people. Minding my own business and taking care of my own property, is NOT work. I'm not selling anything, I'm not doing anything for anyone else.

[elviajero]

Cooking your own breakfast is work too. So is mowing your lawn. Unfortunately there is very little to protect you from the opinion of immigration as to what they will consider work. The best thing to do is to hire people when you can, and don't piss anyone off.

So where can I hire someone to brush my teeth or flush my toilet? Or make my bed, put my laundry in the laundry basket? Or turn on the tap every time I need to use it?

If cooking your own breakfast or mowing your own lawn are work, so are the above things I've mentioned.

Get a grip will you people. Minding my own business and taking care of my own property, is NOT work. I'm not selling anything, I'm not doing anything for anyone else.

I’m not hear to argue against you, but the Alien Working Act, B.E.2551 defines working as:-

“Working” means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

Basically if you are doing anything that can be considered as work under this broad definition you are working and need a work permit. Even unpaid volunteers need a work permit.

You use mowing your own lawn as an example. I agree anyone should be able to mow his or her own lawn, but let me play devils advocate to your argument.

Unless you’re special and own your own house and land you don’t own the lawn or tree, and you are taking care of someone else’s property. So you can't even defend the action by saying it’s yours to mow.

But it doesn’t actually matter who owns the property or lawn. You are an Alien, using physical work to mow a lawn, and even without payment, you need a permit.

There are many crazy examples. Neither does it specify anywhere that a husband can’t help his wife set up a market stall, but if he does he’s breaking the law without a permit.

I don't believe the authorities are interested in people doing any of these activities, but if a Thai complains they would have to act. What they would do depends on the investigators, but basically the law allows for you to be deported for mowing a lawn.

I don’t like the situation anymore than you do, but it is what it is. You are an Alien with temporary stay and little rights. It’s one of the frustrations of trying to make a life here. I think your safe with your daily ablutions though.

Edited April 2, 2015 by elviajero

[Tomtomtom69]

Cooking your own breakfast is work too. So is mowing your lawn. Unfortunately there is very little to protect you from the opinion of immigration as to what they will consider work. The best thing to do is to hire people when you can, and don't piss anyone off.

So where can I hire someone to brush my teeth or flush my toilet? Or make my bed, put my laundry in the laundry basket? Or turn on the tap every time I need to use it?

If cooking your own breakfast or mowing your own lawn are work, so are the above things I've mentioned.

Get a grip will you people. Minding my own business and taking care of my own property, is NOT work. I'm not selling anything, I'm not doing anything for anyone else.

I’m not hear to argue against you, but the Alien Working Act, B.E.2551 defines working as:-

“Working” means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

Basically if you are doing anything that can be considered as work under this broad definition you are working and need a work permit. Even unpaid volunteers need a work permit.

You use mowing your own lawn as an example. I agree anyone should be able to mow his or her own lawn, but let me play devils advocate to your argument.

Unless you’re special and own your own house and land you don’t own the lawn or tree, and you are taking care of someone else’s property. So you can't even defend the action by saying it’s yours to mow.

But it doesn’t actually matter who owns the property or lawn. You are an Alien, using physical work to mow a lawn, and even without payment, you need a permit.

There are many crazy examples. Neither does it specify anywhere that a husband can’t help his wife set up a market stall, but if he does he’s breaking the law without a permit.

I don't believe the authorities are interested in people doing any of these activities, but if a Thai complains they would have to act. What they would do depends on the investigators, but basically the law allows for you to be deported for mowing a lawn.

I don’t like the situation anymore than you do, but it is what it is. You are an Alien with temporary stay and little rights. It’s one of the frustrations of trying to make a life here. I think your safe with your daily ablutions though.

Setting up a market stall to sell goods without a work permit would be illegal as you would be selling goods. So would mowing the lawn for your neighbor or anyone else.

BUT mowing your OWN lawn is the same as brushing your teeth. Sorry, but your argument is flawed and you're talking absolute rubbish. Maybe you have a nice little wifey who will do everything for your lazy a** (no offence) but if I did the same I'd be out on the street. In fact, I recently had an argument with my fiancee because I've done too little housework. I am EXPECTED to do things like mow the lawn, wash the dishes and I do. But then again, how often does one mow their own lawn? In the dry season like once or twice at most. During the rainy season, perhaps once or twice a month. So in total, just a few times a year. Completely legal and the same thing as brushing my own teeth. The same thing as turning on the tap to wash my hands or have a shower.

Indeed, can you imagine how many relationships would be broken up if the foreign spouse said to his girlfriend/wife in response to accusations of being too lazy: "oh, but this is Thailand. I need a work permit to brush my own teeth, do my bed, wash my clothes. Please do these things for me even though you work 10 hours a day and spend 4 hours a day in traffic getting too and from work and I do nothing all day at home".

Yeah, I'm sure that will go down very well....

"But if a Thai complains" Yeah right, some sick, demented nosey neighbor would complain about his neighbor mowing his own lawn, or drying his own clothes. That would be the kind of neighbor who would be on my "must kill" list...LOL.

[elviajero]

Setting up a market stall to sell goods without a work permit would be illegal as you would be selling goods. So would mowing the lawn for your neighbor or anyone else.

BUT mowing your OWN lawn is the same as brushing your teeth. Sorry, but your argument is flawed and you're talking absolute rubbish. Maybe you have a nice little wifey who will do everything for your lazy a** (no offence) but if I did the same I'd be out on the street. In fact, I recently had an argument with my fiancee because I've done too little housework. I am EXPECTED to do things like mow the lawn, wash the dishes and I do. But then again, how often does one mow their own lawn? In the dry season like once or twice at most. During the rainy season, perhaps once or twice a month. So in total, just a few times a year. Completely legal and the same thing as brushing my own teeth. The same thing as turning on the tap to wash my hands or have a shower.

Indeed, can you imagine how many relationships would be broken up if the foreign spouse said to his girlfriend/wife in response to accusations of being too lazy: "oh, but this is Thailand. I need a work permit to brush my own teeth, do my bed, wash my clothes. Please do these things for me even though you work 10 hours a day and spend 4 hours a day in traffic getting too and from work and I do nothing all day at home".

Yeah, I'm sure that will go down very well....

"But if a Thai complains" Yeah right, some sick, demented nosey neighbor would complain about his neighbor mowing his own lawn, or drying his own clothes. That would be the kind of neighbor who would be on my "must kill" list...LOL.

“Setting up a market stall to sell goods without a work permit would be illegal as you would be selling goods.”

Please read what the act says. The selling part is irrelevant. It would be illegal because of the “work” (physical) involved.

You need to stop thinking that they mean “work” in terms of employment or financial gain.

“So would mowing the lawn for your neighbor or anyone else.”

Interesting that you say this. It’s not your lawn, and your fiancée or house owner is “anyone else”.

“BUT mowing your OWN lawn is the same as brushing your teeth.”

Everything we do requires physical effort or knowledge. Breathing, getting out of bed, brushing teeth; therefore, even though the definition of “work” covers all these activities there must be a line that once crossed would be potentially prosecutable.

The problem is that because of the broad definition of work none of us know where the line is.

Mowing a lawn and brushing your teeth are the same in that they both require physical effort and qualify as “work”, but I believe they are either side of the unknown line.

If a neighbor complained about your teeth brushing there is no way the police would take action, but IMO mowing the lawn is on or close to the line.

“Sorry, but your argument is flawed and you're talking absolute rubbish.”

Just because your fiancée expects you to do certain things around the house doesn’t mean that they are automatically “completely legal”.

You can’t base your argument on comparing everything to brushing your teeth and having the right to do anything you want. As I’ve already said, you are an Alien and have no rights. I get your point, but because everything we do requires “work” there are activities, like brushing ones teeth, that couldn’t possibly be prosecutable, and so we are back to which activities do cross the line.

My wife and I grow vegetables on land owned by her for our family’s consumption. Call it a hobby. I don’t believe anything I’m told without proof so when I first got interested in this subject I went to my local Labor Office to check if it was ok for me to grow these vegetables. I was told NO. I was told I needed a work permit. I was also told, off the record, that I shouldn’t worry about it and carry on doing what I was doing, but if someone complained I might have to stop.

An absolutely <delete> ridiculous situation.

Your lawn mowing example is closer to vegetable growing than brushing teeth which is why, IMO, it too would, technically, require a work permit.

Since that visit my advice to anyone is to carry on doing what they are doing, but to do so knowing the potential repercussions. And if someone thinks they are close to the line they should stay under the radar, or go to the Labor Office and get it confirmed. If they say it’s ok then get it in writing.

So with respect my argument is not flawed as it’s based on actual real life experience.

[Tomtomtom69]

Setting up a market stall to sell goods without a work permit would be illegal as you would be selling goods. So would mowing the lawn for your neighbor or anyone else.

BUT mowing your OWN lawn is the same as brushing your teeth. Sorry, but your argument is flawed and you're talking absolute rubbish. Maybe you have a nice little wifey who will do everything for your lazy a** (no offence) but if I did the same I'd be out on the street. In fact, I recently had an argument with my fiancee because I've done too little housework. I am EXPECTED to do things like mow the lawn, wash the dishes and I do. But then again, how often does one mow their own lawn? In the dry season like once or twice at most. During the rainy season, perhaps once or twice a month. So in total, just a few times a year. Completely legal and the same thing as brushing my own teeth. The same thing as turning on the tap to wash my hands or have a shower.

Indeed, can you imagine how many relationships would be broken up if the foreign spouse said to his girlfriend/wife in response to accusations of being too lazy: "oh, but this is Thailand. I need a work permit to brush my own teeth, do my bed, wash my clothes. Please do these things for me even though you work 10 hours a day and spend 4 hours a day in traffic getting too and from work and I do nothing all day at home".

Yeah, I'm sure that will go down very well....

"But if a Thai complains" Yeah right, some sick, demented nosey neighbor would complain about his neighbor mowing his own lawn, or drying his own clothes. That would be the kind of neighbor who would be on my "must kill" list...LOL.

“Setting up a market stall to sell goods without a work permit would be illegal as you would be selling goods.”

Please read what the act says. The selling part is irrelevant. It would be illegal because of the “work” (physical) involved.

You need to stop thinking that they mean “work” in terms of employment or financial gain.

“So would mowing the lawn for your neighbor or anyone else.”

Interesting that you say this. It’s not your lawn, and your fiancée or house owner is “anyone else”.

“BUT mowing your OWN lawn is the same as brushing your teeth.”

Everything we do requires physical effort or knowledge. Breathing, getting out of bed, brushing teeth; therefore, even though the definition of “work” covers all these activities there must be a line that once crossed would be potentially prosecutable.

The problem is that because of the broad definition of work none of us know where the line is.

Mowing a lawn and brushing your teeth are the same in that they both require physical effort and qualify as “work”, but I believe they are either side of the unknown line.

If a neighbor complained about your teeth brushing there is no way the police would take action, but IMO mowing the lawn is on or close to the line.

“Sorry, but your argument is flawed and you're talking absolute rubbish.”

Just because your fiancée expects you to do certain things around the house doesn’t mean that they are automatically “completely legal”.

You can’t base your argument on comparing everything to brushing your teeth and having the right to do anything you want. As I’ve already said, you are an Alien and have no rights. I get your point, but because everything we do requires “work” there are activities, like brushing ones teeth, that couldn’t possibly be prosecutable, and so we are back to which activities do cross the line.

My wife and I grow vegetables on land owned by her for our family’s consumption. Call it a hobby. I don’t believe anything I’m told without proof so when I first got interested in this subject I went to my local Labor Office to check if it was ok for me to grow these vegetables. I was told NO. I was told I needed a work permit. I was also told, off the record, that I shouldn’t worry about it and carry on doing what I was doing, but if someone complained I might have to stop.

An absolutely <delete> ridiculous situation.

Your lawn mowing example is closer to vegetable growing than brushing teeth which is why, IMO, it too would, technically, require a work permit.

Since that visit my advice to anyone is to carry on doing what they are doing, but to do so knowing the potential repercussions. And if someone thinks they are close to the line they should stay under the radar, or go to the Labor Office and get it confirmed. If they say it’s ok then get it in writing.

So with respect my argument is not flawed as it’s based on actual real life experience.

Why would anyone go to the labour office to ask if it was OK to grow a couple of tomato bushes in their backyard? I mean, did you also ask if it was OK to clean your own floor, if you happened to have diahrrea and couldn't make it in time to your toilet? I mean, that's how ridiculous this argument is getting.

Of course the labour office was confused by your questioning...maybe it was the language barrier (do you even speak Thai?) but in the end obviously they would say it's fine if you just grow the veggies for your own consumption and don't disturb anyone else. What else would you expect them to say?

I really don't get the scaremongering some expats are on about all the time. There's "not allowed" and then you have to remember we're in Thailand. The laws are flexible here. Anyone who minds their own business, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't do anything that's too obvious won't have a problem with their activities. Even many immigration and customs officers are in on it. I am good friends with the head of quarantine at customs at a major land border crossing. She knows about a westerner who lives with his Thai wife in the local area, who's apparently on overstay and works somewhere illegally. But he doesn't tread on anyone's shoes and does she even think about reporting him, seeing she knows everyone in immigration? Nope, because he is not getting in anyone's way.

Anyway, this discussion has run it's course and no matter what you say I'm going to continue doing what I do around the house (which is not much anyway) and that's not going to change, whether you like it or not.

Discussion closed.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Tomtomtom69

[elviajero]

Why would anyone go to the labour office to ask if it was OK to grow a couple of tomato bushes in their backyard? I mean, did you also ask if it was OK to clean your own floor, if you happened to have diahrrea and couldn't make it in time to your toilet? I mean, that's how ridiculous this argument is getting.

Of course the labour office was confused by your questioning...maybe it was the language barrier (do you even speak Thai?) but in the end obviously they would say it's fine if you just grow the veggies for your own consumption and don't disturb anyone else. What else would you expect them to say?

I really don't get the scaremongering some expats are on about all the time. There's "not allowed" and then you have to remember we're in Thailand. The laws are flexible here. Anyone who minds their own business, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't do anything that's too obvious won't have a problem with their activities. Even many immigration and customs officers are in on it. I am good friends with the head of quarantine at customs at a major land border crossing. She knows about a westerner who lives with his Thai wife in the local area, who's apparently on overstay and works somewhere illegally. But he doesn't tread on anyone's shoes and does she even think about reporting him, seeing she knows everyone in immigration? Nope, because he is not getting in anyone's way.

Anyway, this discussion has run it's course and no matter what you say I'm going to continue doing what I do around the house (which is not much anyway) and that's not going to change, whether you like it or not.

Discussion closed.

Why would anyone go to the labour office to ask if it was OK to grow a couple of tomato bushes in their backyard?

My profession allows me to work anywhere in the world. I don’t sell anything in Thailand and all of my income is generated abroad. I always thought that as long as someone wasn’t employed or working for a Thai person or company they weren’t breaking any laws.

Subsequently I found out through TV that even though I wasn’t employed here that I need a work permit to carry on with my day job. Which incidentally I can’t get even if I wanted one. So I got a copy of the Alien Labor Act which confirmed what I was being told.

Not being happy with this discovery I went to the labor office to ask if I could continue my work in Thailand. They said no and that I needed a permit. Whilst I was there I asked about growing vegetables with my wife because TV members had said that even harmless activities like that needed a permit. They confirmed that I needed a permit.

I’m not interested whether you believe me or not. As I’ve said to you, and the OP, the only way to know for sure if the activity you are doing requires a permit is to ask the labor office because you, me, nor anyone else can give the definitive answer.

“I mean, did you also ask if it was OK to clean your own floor, if you happened to have diahrrea and couldn't make it in time to your toilet? I mean, that's how ridiculous this argument is getting.”

No I didn’t! It’s only getting ridiculous because you want to include teeth brushing and clearing up diarrhea into the conversation.

“Of course the labour office was confused by your questioning...maybe it was the language barrier (do you even speak Thai?) but in the end obviously they would say it's fine if you just grow the veggies for your own consumption and don't disturb anyone else. What else would you expect them to say?”

What’s there to be confused about!

Yes I speak Thai.

No. They didn’t say it’s fine they said I couldn’t do it and that I needed a work permit.

Off the record permission is worthless.

Let me try this. Would you consider that an Alien growing vegetables to be sold at market requires a permit? Based on your previous posts I would say you would agree it does.

The only thing I don’t do is sell the vegetables at market. But the law doesn’t care whether or not I sell them. It’s the work involved in growing them that requires the permit.

“I really don't get the scaremongering some expats are on about all the time. “

I’m not scaremongering. I’m trying to help. Read what I wrote. I said people should keep doing what they are doing.

People should do whatever they feel they need to do, but they should also be aware of the penalties if what they are doing is prosecuted.

“There's "not allowed" and then you have to remember we're in Thailand. The laws are flexible here. “

Flexible until they are enforced!

How many times have you seen someone not wearing a helmet ride pass a policeman without being stopped. And how many times have you seen someone stopped and fined for not wearing a helmet.

Laws inconsistently enforced don’t mean they will not be enforced if it suits the enforcer.

“Anyone who minds their own business, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't do anything that's too obvious won't have a problem with their activities. “

I agree, but neither you nor I can guarantee that.

“Even many immigration and customs officers are in on it. “

Agreed. As I said the authorities aren’t concerned about someone mowing their lawn or growing vegetables. But if someone complains they may have to act.

“I am good friends with the head of quarantine at customs at a major land border crossing. She knows about a westerner who lives with his Thai wife in the local area, who's apparently on overstay and works somewhere illegally. But he doesn't tread on anyone's shoes and does she even think about reporting him, seeing she knows everyone in immigration? Nope, because he is not getting in anyone's way.”

Which proves my point that those in authority aren’t all interested in voluntarily chasing down Farangs breaking the law. But what would she do if someone complained directly to her about this illegal person. Especially if the person complaining had influence. Would she ignore it or get on the phone to her buddies in immigration.

“no matter what you say I'm going to continue doing what I do around the house (which is not much anyway) and that's not going to change, whether you like it or not.”

Isn’t that what I said! That you should continue doing what you are doing.

We are on the same page it’s just you don’t seem to want to acknowledge the reality of being an Alien in this country. Rights that exist in your own country don’t necessarily apply here, and common sense and logic don’t come in to it.

We could debate this until hell freezes over. I just wanted to pass on information and my experience, which is the point of a forum. What people do with it is up to them.

[sean in udon]

Bit of light reading for all those that keep saying 'you need a work permit to do anything'

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Permission-to-function-in-Phuket/22548

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?/topic/752693-Work-Permit-needed-for-a-hobby%3F

Sent from my iPhone

Edited April 7, 2015 by sean in udon

[sean in udon]

And for those that don't have the time:

However, Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office, the government office established to specifically regulate and administer employment law, maintained that the wording does not allow officers to apply the law beyond its intended scope.

“Foreigners cannot perform any work – in the true sense of the word – without a work permit. And they may only perform the work listed in the work permit and only at the place of work listed in the permit.

“But that doesn’t mean they can’t cook their own meals, clean their own houses or tend to their own gardens. Of course they can, but as soon as they are hired or profit by doing any of these things, they are ‘working’,” she said.

“And any foreigners who want to build their own boats on their own time, using their own skills and experience, for their own personal use are not breaking the law. They can do this, but they cannot build a boat so they can sell it later on. That would be profiting from the work,” Ms Yaowapa added.

I wonder how long before someone says "but that's Phuket. Maybe it's not the same in (insert region of Thailand here)".

Feel free to come to BKK at the special 'Deporting of Aliens Growing Their Own Food' terminal and say "I told you so" as we all get deported.

I hear the terminal is very busy this year

Edited April 8, 2015 by sean in udon

[canuckamuck]

Now we can get back to talking about fish.