Uh, Oh

[hellohello]

Silly me, 3 years ago my balance (at SCB) was slightly over 10K for about 1 week. When I purchased a Toyota (it's registerd in my name). So now what? I never reported it to the IRS. I file and pay taxes every year. At that time, i was using a Tax person whom didnt even ask me about this, Last year I did Turbo Tax and saw this question. So .. anyway.. it's so far so good. But, should I file this paper next year, to be safe or am I just being paranoid? Any thoughts you guys?

Thanks HH

[Thaiquila]

Who can really know if it would ever come to bite you? Sounds unlikely, but if it was a SWIFT transfer, the government probably knows about it as they are watching all SWIFT transfers.

You can file an amended FMAR form, "giving the reasons why the form was not filed timely." The FMAR form is totally separate from the IRS tax return filing. More info here:

http://www.retireaway.com/forum/t155.htm

Edited September 1, 2006 by Thaiquila

[OldAsiaHand]

... am I just being paranoid? Any thoughts you guys?

Yes, I think you are. Even if these filings were policed as rigorously as some of the more high-strung folks on this board claim (they're not), your mistake here is, as the lawyers say, di minimus. My advice is not to start filing amendments. All you'll do is draw attention to yourself and, in dealing with government, that's really, really the last thing you want to do. Trust me on that.

[Old Man River]

Silly me, 3 years ago my balance (at SCB) was slightly over 10K for about 1 week. When I purchased a Toyota (it's registerd in my name). So now what? I never reported it to the IRS. I file and pay taxes every year. At that time, i was using a Tax person whom didnt even ask me about this, Last year I did Turbo Tax and saw this question. So .. anyway.. it's so far so good. But, should I file this paper next year, to be safe or am I just being paranoid? Any thoughts you guys?

Thanks HH

Old Asia Hand is correct. Besides, bank balances over USD 10,000 normally are more of interest to the Treasury Dept. and the form you are told to fill out on the IRS income tax form is to be sent to the Treasury Dept., not the IRS. Too date, they don't communicate with each other on these matters, so keep quiet about it and fill out the form the next time it happens.

[fxm88]

To clarify a point: the IRS is part of the Treasury Department; this form is filed with FinCEN (Financial Crimes Enforcement Network) which is also part of the Treasury Department. A distinction is made between simple ignorance and "willful failure to file". Some articles with more information:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=3628

http://www.allbusiness.com/finance/441740-1.html

http://www.capdale.com/articles/articlebod...ID=104827112000

http://www.us.kpmg.com/microsite/tax/ies/t...05/article3.asp

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/articl...=159757,00.html

Of course you're not really telling them anything they probably don't already know. For years "Know Your Customer" rules have required banks to report a lot more of your transactions anyway:

http://www.reason.com/0311/fe.jb.show.shtml

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/consumer/15155leg19990304.html

[Thaiquila]

I agree. They already know. Clearly.

If they ever wanted to harass you for anything else, not reporting would be a convenient and expensive thing they have on you.

Funny thing, I think it would be extremely difficult to find how often they enforce this rule. Clearly, it is meant for criminals, so why would they bother garden variety expats?

I have no idea. But they could if they wanted to, and the US is running record deficits ...

I personally don't think being aware of the very clear law and outrageous legal penalties is paranoid. Everyone can make their own decision based on the information they have. But thats the thing, we don't really have any info on rate of enforcement.

Edited September 1, 2006 by Thaiquila

[hellohello]

It was not a Swift so I feel better. Thanks again for your comments.

[Old Man River]

Of course you're not really telling them anything they probably don't already know. For years "Know Your Customer" rules have required banks to report a lot more of your transactions anyway:

This is very informative. Are you saying that all Thai banks have to report to the US government?

[OldAsiaHand]

Thai banks do not make reports to the US government. They barely make reports to the Thai government.

What the poster was referring to under the general rubric of 'know your customer rules' is that banks in general have been pushed by many of their home governments to take a variety of steps to make certain they know who they are dealing with. Those steps usually involve clear identification of customers opening new accounts and have little or nothing to do with day-to-day transactions as long as thsoe transactions are routine.

[percy2]

Thai banks do not make reports to the US government. They barely make reports to the Thai government.

What the poster was referring to under the general rubric of 'know your customer rules' is that banks in general have been pushed by many of their home governments to take a variety of steps to make certain they know who they are dealing with. Those steps usually involve clear identification of customers opening new accounts and have little or nothing to do with day-to-day transactions as long as thsoe transactions are routine.

When applying for a bank account in Singapore I was told if I was a US citizen I would not be able to have an account there. This was because if I did the bank would have been obliged to report to the US goverment if they wanted to do business in the US.

The banks policy was to refuse customers from the US rather than report.

This info was given by a bank staff and I haven't bothered to verify , but it did seem that foriegn banks were reporting.

I have found Thai banks as efficient as any other countries and better than most.

[fxm88]

Of course you're not really telling them anything they probably don't already know. For years "Know Your Customer" rules have required banks to report a lot more of your transactions anyway:

This is very informative. Are you saying that all Thai banks have to report to the US government?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that US banks are doing a lot more reporting. At one time only transactions over US$10,000 were reported but now they report any "suspicious" activity. Many banks just report everything, to avoid making a mistake (i.e. "defensive filing"). I don't know if foreign banks with a presence in the United States are pressured/required to report on accounts held by US citizens in foreign countries, but it sounds plausible -- and what bank doesn't want to be in that market? And this doesn't include whatever surreptitious information is being gathering (e.g. via SWIFT).

That being said, I have little doubt that the Anti Money Laundering Office cooperates in whatever ways it can with US law enforcement. Compared to hosting an International Law Enforcement Academy (one of the four in the world) or even a secret US prison (was its non-existence ever substantiated?) passing on a farang's financial information seems minor.

A little more about FBARs. It turns out that FinCEN delegated the authority for collecting this information to the IRS! So why isn't the form filed with your federal tax return? By filing it as a separate form it isn't subject to the same privacy rules that apply to tax returns. In other words, they can share this information with state and local law enforcement or whomever else they want.

[Thaiquila]

This is not about foreign banks reporting you. This is about the fact there is no privacy with SWIFT transfers.

ALL, I repeat ALL SWIFT transfers from the US to abroad are known by the US government. This has been happening for years under Bush; I don't know the exact date it started. Sometime after Sept 11, 2001?

So if you do a SWIFT over 10K to a foreign bank account in your name, they KNOW you have a foreign bank account over 10K. So, if you don't file the FMAR, they also KNOW you are in violation and technically, legally they COULD access on you massive financial fines. Do people really want to take that chance? I personally think it is foolish not to file the form.

How efficient are they at sharing this info with the authority that could fine you? I don't know, but they are getting better at this kind of info sharing.

There is a debate about the legality and constitutionality of this invasion of privacy, but I can tell you I would bet this snooping will continue pretty much forever.

Enjoy! (the happy memories of privacy rights for American citizens)

Edited September 4, 2006 by Thaiquila