SURVEY: Is it in Thailand's interest to be closely aligned with China?

[jayboy]

China and Thailand have no significant issues between them - unlike the rest of ASEAN.China and Thailand will have good relations whoever is in power in Thailand.Thaksin had excellent relationships with Beijing and there's no reason to believe the Junta will have any difficulties in that area.

The current Thai government will respond favourably to the Chinese model - namely an authoritarian government devoted to high economic growth.The slight problem is that while the leaders in Beijing are men of remarkable intellect and vision, their counterparts in Thailand ( well politeness prevents me spelling out the differences in too much detail ).

Beijing while enjoying good relations with all types of Thai government will not wish to be caught offside - and thus would prefer a Thai government with a measure of legitimacy.The current Thai administration has zero legitimacy and we may assume Beijing would want some evidence of this.

[Jackson86]

It's in the interests of Thailand to align closer to China. In Thailand, much of the wealth is controlled by Thai Chinese people because they are proven to be more hardworking and thus rise faster up the corporate ladder, thus the Thai Chinese people is in a position to bridge Thailand closer to China. In addition, relationship between Thai and Chinese people is different than with the West as the former dates back to hundreds of years, way before any western countries came. Although it can be said that Thailand's economic prosperity since WW2 is largely due to Western factors given China's closure during the Cultural Revolution times, western democracy does not appear applicable in Thailand because of many previous military coups. The rise of China coupled with the decline of US in the SEA region means that Thailand has to align closer to China for long-term economic benefits. Thailand is aware that having a closer relationship with a giant neighbor is more beneficial than a faraway country.

[Jackson86]

Thais have so much to learn from the Chineses. And they know it. It's the Thais who encouraged the immigration and the integration of the Chineses in Thailand. It worked too well as the Chineses became Thais and lost their cultural edge. Fortunately the trend is now for Thai of Chinese origin to rediscover their roots and their heritage and we can expect even closer and deeper links with the Mainland.

good point but however i hope Thai Chinese people should also not forget their Tha heritage as well. I don't see it as a zero-sum game. They can get the best of both worlds actually, no need for 1-to-1 exchange.

[spidermike007]

Everyone is closely allied with the Chinese. Even the US, which pretends to lecture China, behind the scenes kisses their butt. They are the gorilla in the room and their governments intentions are rotten. But, they have the power and are really beginning to use it. We have not seen anything yet. Wait and see. Over time that govt. Will show us how ugly and heinous they really are.

Edited April 13, 2015 by spidermike007

[tonbridgebrit]

I get the impression that Thailand is not so much moving away from the west as normalising its relationships in accordance with its national interests based on geography, economics and cultural ties.

This impression was reinforced on Monday when I had the opportunity to observe and have a conversation with His Excellency, Chirachai Punkrasin the newly appointed Ambassador to Australia. Thailand has appointed a very high quality person to this position which reflects the importance that it places on Thai/Australia relations. I have to be honest and say I was very impressed by him.

Yes, Thailand is trying to normalise relations with Australia. But, I think even using high quality Thais to restore full links with Australia is not going to be successfull. Basically, Australia is in the same boat as America and the European Union. Australia will only restore full links once a general election has taken place. That's why it's best if we see one.

[abhaya]

All the Thai/Chinese I have met identify with being Thai 100%, being Chinese only manifests itself as to when they put their shrines on the floor to scare off ghosts and bad luck as opposed to elevated above the head.

[TheKnave]

Thailand's MO from at least the 17th century through the early 20th century has been to play one imperialist off against the other and retain as much land and sovereignty as that strategy permits.

The current HMFIC still lives in the 19th century, and is in for a big surprise when he tries to play footsie with the Chinese in hopes of getting the US to play. The Chinese will eat them for lunch...

Thailand had better wake up, and get with the electoral process before any deals are made with Bejing. Bad to owe the biggest Shylock on the block...

[squarethecircle]

"The current Thai government will respond favourably to the Chinese model - namely an authoritarian government devoted to high economic growth.The slight problem is that while the leaders in Beijing are men of remarkable intellect and vision, their counterparts in Thailand ( well politeness prevents me spelling out the differences in too much detail )."

Nope, the CCP boys are thugs pure and simple, and they murdered or drove off the Chinese of remarkable intellect and vision, and didn't learn from history. My grand-dad said that the next major war with the US would be with PRC. CCP knows or should know that would be their demise - or maybe they are thinking like Goebbels, that they will either be defeated and vilified in history as criminals (which IMO they should be for turning their country into a gigantic slave labor camp), or ??? Not sure what else they're planning.

I don't see Thailand holding them off; they're also actively working with the Cambodian military.

India, Malaysia, Vietnam, PH, Taiwan/ROC, Japan, South Korea do not want China ruling over them. They'll probably end up like Russia, due to crooked governance they don't have the internal structure to generate 21st century leading culture, so will end up militarily invading surrounding countries to maintain their nationalism. They have a satellite weapons program planned too!

Edited April 14, 2015 by squarethecircle

[guap]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

[sawadee1947]

Most western countries don't pay much attention to the petulant nature of Thailand and it's politics, but aligning itself with China will result in an air of active mistrust.

It's a big mistake.

you did not explain why it might be a "BIG MISTAKE". Good neighbourhood with trading and exchange of culture can't be a mistake, isn't it? That's all about ASEAN. (compare EU with different cultures). I can't see any problems with closer connections to China. Just the opposite. It might have a good impact on Thais practising their religion in a proper but not in this excessive way.

[canuckamuck]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

And how did they get such control? By killing millions of their own people, removing any channel for dissent, and replacing the press with propaganda. Lets hope 2 out of 3 is good enough for Thailand.

Edited April 14, 2015 by canuckamuck

[Stray]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

guap, you really should have some indicator that your post is sarcastic. There are some that may take your comments seriously.

[Just1Voice]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

guap, you really should have some indicator that your post is sarcastic. There are some that may take your comments seriously.

And if it's NOT sarcastic, and meant seriously, he should do some reading about China's dealings in Africa and see how "peaceful" they are. As for Russia, look at Georgia and the Ukraine.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

[Chris Lawrence]

China is a disruptive power within the Asian Nations. Aligning itself with China, Thailand will annoy the likes of Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan. Now the General has recently gone to make friends with a couple of these countries. The reason for the grief is China's claim to most of the South China Sea. This area is a dominate shipping and fishing area for many Asian Countries.

China is in an expansion phase in this area. They are moving ahead without fear or foe. The Philippines has infuriated China by appealing to the United Nations for a ruling on the Chinese claims. A ruling is expected early next year, although China has refused to take part in the proceedings.

The claims by China are that they have sovereign rights to the area, although in some cases being over 1000 kilometres from the areas they are claiming.

So is Thailand on the right track, getting into bed with China? Well they are without friends until an election is held; Article 44 is fragmenting relations with Western countries; the General is a man for all seasons, he wants to be noticed; the taking of power by the military is also seen as a front to democracy.

If I was the General I would be asking China to give cash up front before any business venture begins?

[Scott]

Quite insightful, but there is an even better way, and that is to have elections.

[BSJ]

China could be a great country and a superpower for the rest of time without being mean to other countries in the region.

That's the reason for ASEAN. The folks in those countries that are part of ASEAN see China as a threat.

[Chris Lawrence]

Good idea Scott. But hard to have an election when the guy at the top has already had one between him and his mates. A Thai Generals dogma for democracy wins every time?

[jayboy]

All the Thai/Chinese I have met identify with being Thai 100%, being Chinese only manifests itself as to when they put their shrines on the floor to scare off ghosts and bad luck as opposed to elevated above the head.

Yes and no.There's no doubt the assimilation of the Chinese in Thailand has on the whole been remarkably smooth - at least recently.Bangkok is in many ways a Chinese city by which I mean that perhaps a majority can claim a degree of Chinese ancestry.Whether the huge influx of Isaan workers in the last 20 years has changed that could be debated.I do disagree with you that the Sino Thai population's attachment to their culture is superficial.I believe it has strengthened greatly with the success of assimilation, greater prosperity and of course the political/economic rise of China.This is a great change from their position in the first half of the twentieth century when in 1914 they were described as the Jews of Asia.Racial tensions between Thais and those of Chinese extraction existed at that time:they barely exist today.Chinese language schools are flourishing .With increased self confidence comes a degree of arrogance at least in some quarters.The rallies of Sondhi and PAD were distinguished by "sons of China" propaganda and a great deal of racist propaganda about the non Chinese populations of Thailand.The significance of this shouldn't be exaggerated but it's still worth noting.The followers of Suthep and PDRC were very noticeably Sino Thai reflecting the Chinese background of much of Bangkok's middle class.Despite this resurgence we should still remember the Chines in Thailand are a minority albeit a large one.Returning to the specific subject of the thread one cannot but speculate that there could be dangers if this powerful minority (already dominant in commerce, finance and politics) overtly gave allegiance to a foreign power.

[Godfree2]

At the end of the day where does the loyalty of Chinese Thais lay?

They are the rulers of the country are they not?

Smart man.

Anyone who has ever lived in China knows that any Chinese person living in any other country whatsoever is referred to as an "overseas Chinese", meaning that they are always Chinese no matter where they live at that time. Even 2nd or 3rd generation are viewed this way. Certainly the party views them this way. They run this country and most others as well. They have been working towards this for as long as I can remember. All they are waiting for is the right story that can be put across that Thailand was always part of China throughout history. (probably true).

If you think the Thais are thugs and standover merchants then you have got to see the Chinese at work if they think there is a dollar in it.

They will enslave the Thais over a very short period and they will do it by loaning them unpayable money. The Thais will jump at what they see is easy money from the stupid Chinese. After all, haven't they be doing it for a century from the stupid falang.

Ah, I see what you're getting at.

This is the same as the Japanese-Americans living in California 70 years ago, amirite? Just like that Dr. Seuss cartoon "waiting for the signal" from the motherland.

If what you say is true, the only sensible way to prevent such a takeover would be to send all Thai-Chinese to internment camps. Immediately. We should use the "three generation" rule a la North Koreans. Those found to have Chinese ancestry in Thailand will be guilty of DisloyaltyThinkCrime for three generations or until their family tree is destroyed.

You're a genius brah.

[guap]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

guap, you really should have some indicator that your post is sarcastic. There are some that may take your comments seriously.

I can assure you I am not the sarcastic type.

How many countries has China invaded ?

Now how many has the US or England or France invaded.

[PLW]

Ibelieve China is a faceless machine which only cares about itself. Look at the island building off the Phillippines.Look at what China tried to do to Vietnam after the Vietnam Wqr and just recently trying to drill for oil in Vietnamese waters. Remember Tibet? Also look at what China and Russia are trying to do to Japan They use a soft face with a big stick too. Friendly at first and own you later.

[i claudius]

Will that mean more Chinese tour groups ,? oh God please no.

[goreme]

Of course it is. Just like Africa, China will bring in much needed investment dollars to build up infrastructure and increase education to develop a more skilled workforce.

What have western countries contributed to Thailand other than tourist dollars? None see the opportunities in Thailand and have been unwilling to step up to the plate as China has.

[Godfree2]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

guap, you really should have some indicator that your post is sarcastic. There are some that may take your comments seriously.

I can assure you I am not the sarcastic type.

How many countries has China invaded ?

Now how many has the US or England or France invaded.

Ever heard of Tibet?

[Old Man River]

At the end of the day where does the loyalty of Chinese Thais lay?

They are the rulers of the country are they not?

Their loyalties, as Thai's, is to Thailand.

Where does the loyalty of the HK Chinese lay? The Singaporean Chinese? The Malaysian Chinese? You get the picture.

[zydeco]

All the Thai/Chinese I have met identify with being Thai 100%, being Chinese only manifests itself as to when they put their shrines on the floor to scare off ghosts and bad luck as opposed to elevated above the head.

Yes and no.There's no doubt the assimilation of the Chinese in Thailand has on the whole been remarkably smooth - at least recently.Bangkok is in many ways a Chinese city by which I mean that perhaps a majority can claim a degree of Chinese ancestry.Whether the huge influx of Isaan workers in the last 20 years has changed that could be debated.I do disagree with you that the Sino Thai population's attachment to their culture is superficial.I believe it has strengthened greatly with the success of assimilation, greater prosperity and of course the political/economic rise of China.This is a great change from their position in the first half of the twentieth century when in 1914 they were described as the Jews of Asia.Racial tensions between Thais and those of Chinese extraction existed at that time:they barely exist today.Chinese language schools are flourishing .With increased self confidence comes a degree of arrogance at least in some quarters.The rallies of Sondhi and PAD were distinguished by "sons of China" propaganda and a great deal of racist propaganda about the non Chinese populations of Thailand.The significance of this shouldn't be exaggerated but it's still worth noting.The followers of Suthep and PDRC were very noticeably Sino Thai reflecting the Chinese background of much of Bangkok's middle class.Despite this resurgence we should still remember the Chines in Thailand are a minority albeit a large one.Returning to the specific subject of the thread one cannot but speculate that there could be dangers if this powerful minority (already dominant in commerce, finance and politics) overtly gave allegiance to a foreign power.

My anecdotal experience with Thai-Chinese is that after they experience Chinese people in person, especially in the form of tourists, they hate them. I use the word "hate," because that is the word they used about the Chinese. It might be (my thoughts now) that Thai-Chinese see this country as their own private pool and are loathe to allow interlopers from the PRC in on their territory.

[zydeco]

Ibelieve China is a faceless machine which only cares about itself. Look at the island building off the Phillippines.Look at what China tried to do to Vietnam after the Vietnam Wqr and just recently trying to drill for oil in Vietnamese waters. Remember Tibet? Also look at what China and Russia are trying to do to Japan They use a soft face with a big stick too. Friendly at first and own you later.

Good points, all. And don't forget border conflicts with India and border encroachment currently going on in Bhutan and Nepal.

[zydeco]

Of course it is. Just like Africa, China will bring in much needed investment dollars to build up infrastructure and increase education to develop a more skilled workforce.

What have western countries contributed to Thailand other than tourist dollars? None see the opportunities in Thailand and have been unwilling to step up to the plate as China has.

What has the West done? Just ask yourself what the US alone has done. Without the billions and billions of dollars poured into Thailand in the 60s and 70s, Thailand would look like Laos. And just might be ruled like Laos, too. And if you really want to see what the US and the West has done for Thailand, just imagine what would happen if trade and economic sanctions went into place. I hope that never happens. But with ingrates like you beginning to dominate the Thai government, that day just might be coming.

[guap]

China one of the most peaceful countries on the planet, along with Russia, is a good fit for Thailand.

Compared to the western worlds raping and pillaging of anything that moves China is a sea of tranquility and a much more suitable friend.

guap, you really should have some indicator that your post is sarcastic. There are some that may take your comments seriously.

I can assure you I am not the sarcastic type.

How many countries has China invaded ?

Now how many has the US or England or France invaded.

Ever heard of Tibet?

That's one, nobody is perfect.

But lets counter that with

US.... Mexico, Phillipines, Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Vietnam, Korea, Somalia, Yeman the list goes on

UK .... almost all of Africa, Guatemala, Cuba, US, Iceland, Vietnam.... its an even bigger list but my fingers are getting tired..

so China, Russia... pretty good