2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC

[tbthailand]

As for violence:

I have stated repeatedly that there was violence from both sides of the protesters and I have stated many times that I do not support the violence. I have never denied the existence of the MIB in 2010 nor have I ever denied the presence of navy guards at PDRC protests. I don't condone red shirts shooting off RPGs any more than I condone the PDRC firing the same.

(snipped for brevity and topic relevance.).

How nice of you to not condone the PDRC firing RPGs - but have they ever done that? Could you spare a little condemnation for those who did?

I have already "spared a little condemnation for those who did", as you state with tongue in cheek.

Now, I always figured that you were unaware of current events.

Remember back when the royalist courts prohibited the government from using basic means of crowd control against the PDRC protesters because they were "peaceful"?

As a note, the yellow courts did something similar in 2006.

Oddly enough, they didn't do that in 2010...

Well, now, that ruling was made right after a confrontation between police and protesters. Here are a couple of links for you...

after Tuesday's violence, in which four protesters and one police officer were killed in a gun and grenade attack after police attempted to remove demonstrators from protest sites,

or this report:

A Human Rights Watch researcher told VOA that militants had M79 grenade launchers and were firing at police.

So you don't know what an RPG looks like? FYI http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/rpg-7

And the best you can do to sustain your lie is to come up with an unconfirmed report of a sighting of a different, and far less formidable, weapon with no evidence that it was ever used.

The little condemnation you have given us is hard to find (link please) while you continue to condemn the military for the inevitable violence when "peaceful protesters" use weapons such as this against civilian targets. Even to the extent of falsely accusing others of using the same weapon.

deny deny deny - I didn't expect anything else from you...

now if you don't really want an answer, just don't ask the question.

[tbthailand]

As for violence:

I have stated repeatedly that there was violence from both sides of the protesters and I have stated many times that I do not support the violence. I have never denied the existence of the MIB in 2010 nor have I ever denied the presence of navy guards at PDRC protests. I don't condone red shirts shooting off RPGs any more than I condone the PDRC firing the same.

(snipped for brevity and topic relevance.).

How nice of you to not condone the PDRC firing RPGs - but have they ever done that? Could you spare a little condemnation for those who did?

I have already "spared a little condemnation for those who did", as you state with tongue in cheek.

Now, I always figured that you were unaware of current events.

Remember back when the royalist courts prohibited the government from using basic means of crowd control against the PDRC protesters because they were "peaceful"?

As a note, the yellow courts did something similar in 2006.

Oddly enough, they didn't do that in 2010...

Well, now, that ruling was made right after a confrontation between police and protesters. Here are a couple of links for you...

after Tuesday's violence, in which four protesters and one police officer were killed in a gun and grenade attack after police attempted to remove demonstrators from protest sites,

or this report:

A Human Rights Watch researcher told VOA that militants had M79 grenade launchers and were firing at police.

Oddly enough, no grenades were fired at police or pro-government supporters in 2013/2014, only one IED was throw at the police with the officer courageously kicking the device away. Lots of real grenades lobbed on anti-government protesters, mostly cowardly in the night, although an IOD was thrown in the crowed when Suthep marched past. Only one or two killed, but that's normal when 'democracy lovers' get annoyed.

Anyway, the topic is 2010 with lots of real grenades lobbed at non-red-shirts. A topic to be avoided, ridiculed, distracted from, etc., etc.

Reading comprehension is a serious problem for you.

[halloween]

I have already "spared a little condemnation for those who did", as you state with tongue in cheek.

Now, I always figured that you were unaware of current events.

Remember back when the royalist courts prohibited the government from using basic means of crowd control against the PDRC protesters because they were "peaceful"?

As a note, the yellow courts did something similar in 2006.

Oddly enough, they didn't do that in 2010...

Well, now, that ruling was made right after a confrontation between police and protesters. Here are a couple of links for you...

after Tuesday's violence, in which four protesters and one police officer were killed in a gun and grenade attack after police attempted to remove demonstrators from protest sites,

or this report:

A Human Rights Watch researcher told VOA that militants had M79 grenade launchers and were firing at police.

So you don't know what an RPG looks like? FYI http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/rpg-7

And the best you can do to sustain your lie is to come up with an unconfirmed report of a sighting of a different, and far less formidable, weapon with no evidence that it was ever used.

The little condemnation you have given us is hard to find (link please) while you continue to condemn the military for the inevitable violence when "peaceful protesters" use weapons such as this against civilian targets. Even to the extent of falsely accusing others of using the same weapon.

deny deny deny - I didn't expect anything else from you...

now if you don't really want an answer, just don't ask the question.

That 's pretty pathetic. You get caught out with your casual lie ("I don't condone red shirts shooting off RPGs any more than I condone the PDRC firing the same.") try to throw in a few strawman arguments, and accuse me of denial.

Put up or admit it, apologist. Show us some proof that the PDRC fired RPGs.

[aaacorp]

Oh and an honest question :

What happened to all the money Suthep collected ?

Do we have any proof that he give this back to the poors and rice farmers as he promised?

I am quite sure no, but i would be happy to be wrong and see the money fairly distributed to the poor, and not the Suthep family

Add it to the list. There's also still a request for the administration of the UDD protesters, freely donated money and how it was used. A clear itemised list of goods bought and distributed, weapons and ammunition. Of course also the applicable VAT should be mentioned.

Why answering my question with something else?

So two wrongs make a right?

better shut up IMO

[aaacorp]

As for violence:

I have stated repeatedly that there was violence from both sides of the protesters and I have stated many times that I do not support the violence. I have never denied the existence of the MIB in 2010 nor have I ever denied the presence of navy guards at PDRC protests. I don't condone red shirts shooting off RPGs any more than I condone the PDRC firing the same.

(snipped for brevity and topic relevance.).

How nice of you to not condone the PDRC firing RPGs - but have they ever done that? Could you spare a little condemnation for those who did?

I have already "spared a little condemnation for those who did", as you state with tongue in cheek.

Now, I always figured that you were unaware of current events.

Remember back when the royalist courts prohibited the government from using basic means of crowd control against the PDRC protesters because they were "peaceful"?

As a note, the yellow courts did something similar in 2006.

Oddly enough, they didn't do that in 2010...

Well, now, that ruling was made right after a confrontation between police and protesters. Here are a couple of links for you...

after Tuesday's violence, in which four protesters and one police officer were killed in a gun and grenade attack after police attempted to remove demonstrators from protest sites,

or this report:

A Human Rights Watch researcher told VOA that militants had M79 grenade launchers and were firing at police.

Oddly enough, no grenades were fired at police or pro-government supporters in 2013/2014, only one IED was throw at the police with the officer courageously kicking the device away. Lots of real grenades lobbed on anti-government protesters, mostly cowardly in the night, although an IOD was thrown in the crowed when Suthep marched past. Only one or two killed, but that's normal when 'democracy lovers' get annoyed.

Anyway, the topic is 2010 with lots of real grenades lobbed at non-red-shirts. A topic to be avoided, ridiculed, distracted from, etc., etc.

You should re read the news about 2013 2014...you seem to have "selective-reading"

[Fat Haggis]

What a surprise that the topic always gets back to the he said, she said crap.

There was a faction within the Reds who were scum. They used modern assault weapons during the protests, it's not deniable.

The topic is about Surhep and his laying blame on the black shirts, not a rehash of the hundreds of similar posts that has the same usual suspects saying the same things over and over and over again, nothing new is being revealed its Groundhog Day constantly when 2010 riots are discussed.

[robblok]

What a surprise that the topic always gets back to the he said, she said crap.

There was a faction within the Reds who were scum. They used modern assault weapons during the protests, it's not deniable.

The topic is about Surhep and his laying blame on the black shirts, not a rehash of the hundreds of similar posts that has the same usual suspects saying the same things over and over and over again, nothing new is being revealed its Groundhog Day constantly when 2010 riots are discussed.

Its quite simple.. there is shared responsibility here. Without those Blackshirts with arms who rejected peace offered it would never have gotten that far. So they were the reason it went wrong.. the army made mistakes for sure, they were not ready for urban guerrilla warfare with innocents people in between.

We all know who benefited.. the convicted criminal in Dubai. Not the army they were forced into this same as the Abisith and Suthep.

But the army certainly made mistakes else it would not have had such a high toll.. but never forget that they did not start it they just reacted.

[tbthailand]

I have already "spared a little condemnation for those who did", as you state with tongue in cheek.

Now, I always figured that you were unaware of current events.

Remember back when the royalist courts prohibited the government from using basic means of crowd control against the PDRC protesters because they were "peaceful"?

As a note, the yellow courts did something similar in 2006.

Oddly enough, they didn't do that in 2010...

Well, now, that ruling was made right after a confrontation between police and protesters. Here are a couple of links for you...

after Tuesday's violence, in which four protesters and one police officer were killed in a gun and grenade attack after police attempted to remove demonstrators from protest sites,

or this report:

A Human Rights Watch researcher told VOA that militants had M79 grenade launchers and were firing at police.

So you don't know what an RPG looks like? FYI http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/rpg-7

And the best you can do to sustain your lie is to come up with an unconfirmed report of a sighting of a different, and far less formidable, weapon with no evidence that it was ever used.

The little condemnation you have given us is hard to find (link please) while you continue to condemn the military for the inevitable violence when "peaceful protesters" use weapons such as this against civilian targets. Even to the extent of falsely accusing others of using the same weapon.

deny deny deny - I didn't expect anything else from you...

now if you don't really want an answer, just don't ask the question.

That 's pretty pathetic. You get caught out with your casual lie ("I don't condone red shirts shooting off RPGs any more than I condone the PDRC firing the same.") try to throw in a few strawman arguments, and accuse me of denial.

Put up or admit it, apologist. Show us some proof that the PDRC fired RPGs.

hmmmm, well you seem to have a point, as I usually refer to each side's violence - even the use of grenades against police. It would appear that I definitely made an error in referring to RPG and M79 as equivalent devices used to launch grenades at opponents and authorities and kill them.

I apologize for the implication that the PDRC used RPGs to launch grenade attacks when in fact, they were only seen using M79 grenade launchers.

My bad.

[mike324]

your closing:

well, clearly I don't agree with your last paragraph at all. The dear general trigger his coup for his own reasons, but I hardly see it as being for the good of Thailand. As for police corruption being less, the top cop appointed by the General has declared assets of nearly 400 million bhat - that looks more like a hatchet man than a corruption killer. And politicians haven't been just watching their backs, many have been driven out of Thailand. There is a purge going on if you haven't noticed. That is not about 'good government' or 'reform', that is just about political vengeance...

Noted on your points. There are many other interesting things to talk about to regarding to the hush hush stuff, but we will just leave it as that. I think we each believe the different reasons why there was a coup, I personally believe that it has less to do with the elites holding on to power and what not, and more so on maintaining peace. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it will bring about a brighter future.

Even with the military profiting from the control, I don't see it impacting the citizens as much as the different Ministries that are raping the country (transport, education, etc) with Education Ministry being the worse! On top of that, corrupt police has influence the society more than corrupt military. I'm sure you will agree with that point.

I am still adamant that it is because of corrupt politicians that is why people protested in the first place, but you are still focusing on the fact that it is because of the coup. So under your views, the PAD demonstration did not count as a "Reaction"? But the Red Shirts/UDD protest is consider as a "Reaction" and it is more important JUST because the cause is "Coup". You seem to want to overlook the agenda of those that are Pro-Dem that had a valid point to protest (or I guess you think it was not valid and it was still about a power grab no matter what). Without the PAD protest, did you think there would have been a coup? I guess you will say the PAD is orchestra as a power grab to bring Thaksin down...etc etc

I think Thai Politics needed to take a step backward before it can move forward again, it has been moving forward too fast too furious with no accountability on both sides

[tbthailand]

your closing:

well, clearly I don't agree with your last paragraph at all. The dear general trigger his coup for his own reasons, but I hardly see it as being for the good of Thailand. As for police corruption being less, the top cop appointed by the General has declared assets of nearly 400 million bhat - that looks more like a hatchet man than a corruption killer. And politicians haven't been just watching their backs, many have been driven out of Thailand. There is a purge going on if you haven't noticed. That is not about 'good government' or 'reform', that is just about political vengeance...

Noted on your points. There are many other interesting things to talk about to regarding to the hush hush stuff, but we will just leave it as that. I think we each believe the different reasons why there was a coup, I personally believe that it has less to do with the elites holding on to power and what not, and more so on maintaining peace. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it will bring about a brighter future.

Even with the military profiting from the control, I don't see it impacting the citizens as much as the different Ministries that are raping the country (transport, education, etc) with Education Ministry being the worse! On top of that, corrupt police has influence the society more than corrupt military. I'm sure you will agree with that point.

I am still adamant that it is because of corrupt politicians that is why people protested in the first place, but you are still focusing on the fact that it is because of the coup. So under your views, the PAD demonstration did not count as a "Reaction"? But the Red Shirts/UDD protest is consider as a "Reaction" and it is more important JUST because the cause is "Coup". You seem to want to overlook the agenda of those that are Pro-Dem that had a valid point to protest (or I guess you think it was not valid and it was still about a power grab no matter what). Without the PAD protest, did you think there would have been a coup? I guess you will say the PAD is orchestra as a power grab to bring Thaksin down...etc etc

I think Thai Politics needed to take a step backward before it can move forward again, it has been moving forward too fast too furious with no accountability on both sides

hmmm, interesting. Yes, there are topics off-limits and that is too bad. As for the reason for the 'intervention', for me it was simply too transparent that Suthep wanted to create a crisis situation in which the military could justify taking over. A couple of reasons why:

• there was clearly no constitutional means of executing his reform plan. Extra-constitutional means was the only real path to his 'reform' plan
• Suthep was calling on the military to intervene before the end of 2013
• it was the same strategy used in 2006 and 2008
• once the reason to protest was mute (amnesty bill withdrawn) the reasons for the protest changed
• once the constitutional path for resolving the conflict was initiated - dissolving parliament and calling for elections - the move to block elections began
• the violence wasn't escalating in May
• the timing of the intervention: it came about 2 weeks after the removal of Yingluck ... if the 2008 tactic of MP arm-twisting would have worked again, we would have seen it at that time.
• if the 2008 tactic of changing PM allegiances didn't work, there were few options other than to continue toward and attempt to block another set of elections. That didn't strike me as a workable strategy for the PDRC & Co.

Taken together, I have a very hard time believing the stories that the generals have put forth to justify their 'intervention'.

I agree that police corruption touches the daily lives of more Thais than military corruption. Looking at the declarations of the 2 groups, the amazing wealth of the top police is higher than the amazing wealth of the top generals and admirals. That could be a barometer of what happens behind the scenes...

Action reaction surrounding the 2006 coup... good points there. It's a more complicated coup than the 2014 version... in my opinion. I feel that the 2006 coup was partly a reaction to Thaksin's changing position of power, but that the underlying reasons and the timing are no different that the 'intervention' in 2014. It seems clear that the royalist PAD wanted to and did create a constitutional crisis, IMO, to allow the military to justify the coup. There are interesting details that could be discussed about 2006, for example, I feel there was a good reason that the military felt the need to have tanks in BKK in 2006 but not in 2014.

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed.

[mike324]

• there was clearly no constitutional means of executing his reform plan. Extra-constitutional means was the only real path to his 'reform' plan
• Suthep was calling on the military to intervene before the end of 2013
• it was the same strategy used in 2006 and 2008
• once the reason to protest was mute (amnesty bill withdrawn) the reasons for the protest changed
• once the constitutional path for resolving the conflict was initiated - dissolving parliament and calling for elections - the move to block elections began
• the violence wasn't escalating in May
• the timing of the intervention: it came about 2 weeks after the removal of Yingluck ... if the 2008 tactic of MP arm-twisting would have worked again, we would have seen it at that time.
• if the 2008 tactic of changing PM allegiances didn't work, there were few options other than to continue toward and attempt to block another set of elections. That didn't strike me as a workable strategy for the PDRC & Co.

Taken together, I have a very hard time believing the stories that the generals have put forth to justify their 'intervention'.

I agree that police corruption touches the daily lives of more Thais than military corruption. Looking at the declarations of the 2 groups, the amazing wealth of the top police is higher than the amazing wealth of the top generals and admirals. That could be a barometer of what happens behind the scenes...

Action reaction surrounding the 2006 coup... good points there. It's a more complicated coup than the 2014 version... in my opinion. I feel that the 2006 coup was partly a reaction to Thaksin's changing position of power, but that the underlying reasons and the timing are no different that the 'intervention' in 2014. It seems clear that the royalist PAD wanted to and did create a constitutional crisis, IMO, to allow the military to justify the coup. There are interesting details that could be discussed about 2006, for example, I feel there was a good reason that the military felt the need to have tanks in BKK in 2006 but not in 2014.

Suthep's "People Council" was pure rubbish. Dem's boycotting and blocking the voting booth was childish. Even if the PTP wins again, Thai politics would still be moving backwards. I don't see anything beneficial with the Thai "Democracy" we are having, politicians are out of control. Like I said before, Thai Politics needs to take a step back before they can move forward again.

It is through events like this that checks and balances are put in place and laws are slowly being enforced. Thai education is sliding backwards, so I don't see any hope for future generations too.