Court refuses to pinpoint which side killed Japanese cameraman in 2010

[Fat Haggis]

BANGKOK: -- Among the Army's weapons confiscated by red-shirt protesters in April 2010, only one M-16 rifle has been returned to the military, the rest are still missing, Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd said in testimony yesterday.

The missing weapons included 25 Tavor rifles, four M-16 rifles and 39 shotguns, he said in testimony before the House of Representative's sub-committee on political development and mass communication.

The weapons belonging to the Army were confiscated by red protesters during the bloody protest in April 2010. They were displayed on the red-shirts' stage at Rajdamnern Avenue on the day, he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/589905-military-arms-seized-by-red-shirt-protesters-missing/

None of these fire .308/.338 rounds ?

The Criminal Court Thursday announced the result of inquest into the killing of Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, saying he was killed by a high-velocity bullet with unknown type and size.

Where did they say it was that type of round?

It doesn't ? that's what I'm getting at as mentioned in my prior posts high velocity doesn't tell what weapon it came from, it leaves it very open to interpretation as both sides had and used high velocity weapons.

The autopsy should have been able to gauge the calibre of the round, depending on the entry wound sized, and the various parts left behind as the round hit bone and tissue on the way through.

If they had pinpointed a calibre such as .308/.338 then only one side used these, so there wouldn't have been any doubt as to who fired the fatal rounds, but leaving it at "high velocity" neither implicates either side. ?

Why do I keep bringing up the .308/.338 issue you might add, well there are reports/claims of protestors having Been shot in the head by army marksmen/snipers and they use .308/.338 chambered weapons. As well as 5.56mm ?

[djjamie]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

The one source being the Army? That conveniently over looks the reality that Thai Army weapons and munitions regularly go missing even from supposed secure Army sites. And also that Thaksins chief in arms of his treason attacks on Bangkok (Sah Dueang) was also high ranking renegade Army and would have been probably able to secure the same munitions. It also conveniently overlooks that Thaksins Men in Black were also armed with heavy modern weaponry.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it is the Army without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibres were or considering all the options. But then that is common for a lot on this site.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it was the red shirts without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibre a were or considering all the options, But then again the is common for a lot on this site.

Are you familiar with what weapons use .308/.338 rounds?

I am and I can assure you if the redshirts had these weapons especially the with claims of the MIB, as a highly trained "military" type of unit there would have been a lot more Army fatalities, which thankfully there wasn't.

The claims they were highly trained where made by the UDD leaders and then the denying they said it commenced after they found it did not suit their agenda…Sigh…...

Love the logic though. Because the MIB did not kill many soldiers they did not exist or were common untrained street thugs or were unarmed. The lack of fatalities on the soldiers side shows the military were correct in coming in and shutting down the terrorists when they did and Suthep and Ahbisit are to be commended for potentially saving a lot of innocent soldiers lives.

It is a sad ending to the court case though with the only light at the end of the tunnel being Tida as a representative of the 7%'ers actually respecting a court verdict instead of allowing her supporters to burn effigies of the judges or throw sh*t at the court houses. That fact alone justifies article 44.

But then, will see the court house bombed in the coming weeks.

Edited April 30, 2015 by djjamie

[rubl]

who had motive to shoot him and take his recorded footage, I have my own thoughts on that

The army? ?

Other possibilities include the Men-in-Black and the renegade general "no one saw me" Seh Daeng.

Edited April 30, 2015 by rubl

[rubl]

"The court said it could not be determined who shot the three and from which direction the shots were fired from."

Since the court said bullets entered here and went through there, I guess what they mean is the court has no clear picture of the position of the victims in relation to other people like army, Men-in-Black, protesters.

[Prbkk]

These Judges are safe from the prospect of transfer to inactive posts.

[Fat Haggis]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

The one source being the Army? That conveniently over looks the reality that Thai Army weapons and munitions regularly go missing even from supposed secure Army sites. And also that Thaksins chief in arms of his treason attacks on Bangkok (Sah Dueang) was also high ranking renegade Army and would have been probably able to secure the same munitions. It also conveniently overlooks that Thaksins Men in Black were also armed with heavy modern weaponry.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it is the Army without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibres were or considering all the options. But then that is common for a lot on this site.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it was the red shirts without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibre a were or considering all the options, But then again the is common for a lot on this site.

Are you familiar with what weapons use .308/.338 rounds?

I am and I can assure you if the redshirts had these weapons especially the with claims of the MIB, as a highly trained "military" type of unit there would have been a lot more Army fatalities, which thankfully there wasn't.

The claims they were highly trained where made by the UDD leaders and then the denying they said it commenced after they found it did not suit their agendaSigh...

Love the logic though. Because the MIB did not kill many soldiers they did not exist or were common untrained street thugs or were unarmed. The lack of fatalities on the soldiers side shows the military were correct in coming in and shutting down the terrorists when they did and Suthep and Ahbisit are to be commended for potentially saving a lot of innocent soldiers lives.

It is a sad ending to the court case though with the only light at the end of the tunnel being Tida as a representative of the 7%'ers actually respecting a court verdict instead of allowing her supporters to burn effigies of the judges or throw sh*t at the court houses. That fact alone justifies article 44.

But then, will see the court house bombed in the coming weeks.

The claims also came from forum members too Jamie, I have always maintained that these clowns from the UDD are about as inept as they come, and that completing a level on call of duty would be too hard for them never mind starting a civil war!! Not to mention keeping one going beyond 11 am in the morning !! ?

People died, both sides were using high velocity weapons, the truth will never be know who was responsible for the killing of the cameraman, his family will never know the truth whether it was red or green behind his death.

Why do you love 7% so much? Is there really 5 million UDD supporters out there ?

[Local Drunk]

Let's not forget the red shirts were well armed. Plenty of evidence out there that supports this. It was mayhem at this time. Without very good forensic investigators (which Thailand really does not have), it's impossible to prove exactly what happened.

A very sad day for the family of the reporter, but he put himself into that position. Many "war" reporters are killed every year. They know what they are getting themselves into:

1123 Journalists Killed since 1992

https://cpj.org/killed/

He put himself in that position? Oh well that's alright then, as that means those protesters Deaths last year should be viewed in a similar manner? If they hadn't been there they wouldn't have been killed? Is that really what you're saying?

That's one reason we didn't go to the protest sites. Just too dangerous. Not trying to be crude. But these protest sites have a history of being very dangerous.

Nothing crude about your response, it's spot on, they did know the risks, as did the reporter, and despite the attacks continuing, the protestors remained, they were asked any times to stop, and clear the streets, they didn't they seen it as an acceptable risk being there. Bluntly speaking why should people be compensated why they were fully aware of the inherent risk involved ?

If you knew there was a great white shark swimming around your area, would you still go swimming ?

What we see here in Thaialnd is people passionate about their cause and believe the cause is greater than their safety, regardless of their politics.

I wouldn't quite say that Thais are so passionate about their cause as I would tend to say that to be are is subordinate. They tend do what they are told for whomever pays them, or the big man. I don't think it's a cover up at all. I simply think that the Judiciary couldn't make heads or tails from the evidence. It would be simplistic to say, "shoddy police work" or point a finger here or there according to anyone's particular political bias regarding this matter. If you were to ask me for example for my opinion... We'll never know.

[tbthailand]

Currently Thailand is controlled by the military.

"It cannot be said who the shooters were or which direction the bullets came from," the judge said.

Funny how these two sentences seem to be a natural ordering....

[Fat Haggis]

Fox Mulder and Dana Scully would have solved this in a minute, and the coolest Ginger on the planet Horatio Cain would have been all over this like a tramp on chips!!

[jackanapes]

a high velocity bullet of unknown type and size unbelievable where were the experts the forensic department there is no such thing as a bullet of unknown type and they applied the same to the two red shirt protesters get your act together you people you cant keep fobbing things off to the public people are not stupid.

[Local Drunk]

Currently Thailand is controlled by the military.

"It cannot be said who the shooters were or which direction the bullets came from," the judge said.

Funny how these two sentences seem to be a natural ordering....

Not at all are they in any order. If the police that investigated the crime couldn't determine, the shooter, how could the courts? You seem to be able to do it with ease. Why haven't you presented your evidence to the courts? Please share with them your first hand knowledge of that night so that this case can be laid to rest.Why have you taken so long to do it?

[tahyaa]

Please reply me

[rubl]

Currently Thailand is controlled by the military.

"It cannot be said who the shooters were or which direction the bullets came from," the judge said.

Funny how these two sentences seem to be a natural ordering....

And in-between we could put

"The Yingluck government tried to push through a blanket amnesty bill which would put an end to further discussions"

But I guess you would call that 'dead in the water' or trolling.

[harleyclarkey]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Yes. Sound do bounce and can give a totally false sense of direction.

However it dependes on where the witnesses were standing. Were they 10m or 500m away. Big difference. For such a round to cause such massive damage the gun report would have been very loud indeed. If you were within, say 100-200m, I am sure you could tell if it came from one side or the other. The witnesses were very conveniently ignored.

Were there not any forensic checking of bullet marks on the ground or other objects nearby by these unfortunate victims? The bullets passed through their bodies (?). This would establish the direction with 100% certainty.

Yes....devestating for the families to have their loved ones murdered and no justice prevails....nor will it ever in Thailand.

[wowfactor10]

Probably Suicide !

[Fat Haggis]

Please reply me

Nobody apart from moderators can start new topics in the news section ?

[harleyclarkey]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

The one source being the Army? That conveniently over looks the reality that Thai Army weapons and munitions regularly go missing even from supposed secure Army sites. And also that Thaksins chief in arms of his treason attacks on Bangkok (Sah Dueang) was also high ranking renegade Army and would have been probably able to secure the same munitions. It also conveniently overlooks that Thaksins Men in Black were also armed with heavy modern weaponry.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it is the Army without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibres were or considering all the options. But then that is common for a lot on this site.

You arte incorrect in asserting that I have concluded it was the army.

Please read my post properly and do not draw conclusions.

I merelt stated a fact and said.....and usually the type used by the army.....

[rubl]

Fox Mulder and Dana Scully would have solved this in a minute, and the coolest Ginger on the planet Horatio Cain would have been all over this like a tramp on chips!!

Closer to home "Inspector Rebus" or "Malcolm Fox"

From a fan of single Malt Whisky

[kimamey]

Please reply me

I'm surprised nobody has replied to you. I don't think you can start a thread on the news forum. Depending on what you want to say maybe one of the other forms. Perhaps someone else will come along and help you more than I can.

[Local Drunk]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Yes. Sound do bounce and can give a totally false sense of direction.

However it dependes on where the witnesses were standing. Were they 10m or 500m away. Big difference. For such a round to cause such massive damage the gun report would have been very loud indeed. If you were within, say 100-200m, I am sure you could tell if it came from one side or the other. The witnesses were very conveniently ignored.

Were there not any forensic checking of bullet marks on the ground or other objects nearby by these unfortunate victims? The bullets passed through their bodies (?). This would establish the direction with 100% certainty.

Yes....devestating for the families to have their loved ones murdered and no justice prevails....nor will it ever in Thailand.

Wrong! There is justice here, but don't confuse it with justice in the west. If fact, forget everything you ever learned in the the west when your plane lands here because you're not in the west anymore. It's more profitable to unlearn here.

.

[smedly]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Yes. Sound do bounce and can give a totally false sense of direction.

However it dependes on where the witnesses were standing. Were they 10m or 500m away. Big difference. For such a round to cause such massive damage the gun report would have been very loud indeed. If you were within, say 100-200m, I am sure you could tell if it came from one side or the other. The witnesses were very conveniently ignored.

Were there not any forensic checking of bullet marks on the ground or other objects nearby by these unfortunate victims? The bullets passed through their bodies (?). This would establish the direction with 100% certainty.

Yes....devestating for the families to have their loved ones murdered and no justice prevails....nor will it ever in Thailand.

ok so there were people called witnesses that testified certain things, these people were supposedly close to man when he was shot, they are likely redshirts, does anyone actually think these people are going to tell the truth, it is more likely they were hand picked and given a script as to what to say, I don't trust or believe any of it especially if this man was murdered by protestors because he wasn't doing what he was told i.e you cannot film us with guns and grenade launchers attacking the security forces, so basically you cannot trust any eye witness statements presented to the courts from these people, I would have thought anyone would understand why

and as for the debate about ballistics well there are so many elements to this and very few here have a clue, an armour piercing round for example will pass right through a body regardless of hitting bone or not, all you will have is a small entry and exit point - although other factures will influence this too, rounds used by the military are wide ranging and all have different characteristics dependant on many elements, unless the round fired was recovered at the scene then it is virtually impossible to conclude anything adding to that you would also need either video footage or a reliable witness to determine where this man was standing and what direction he was facing, his camera footage might hold some vital clues but I wonder where that went ?

[Fat Haggis]

You are making it sound like a conspiracy theory mate, i prefer to keep options open.

you're correct about AP rounds, but they were not issued so it's a moot point, and IF they were issued to deal with crowd control that opens up a whole new can of worms indeed.

[ChrisY1]

Can anyone tell me how can I make new fresh post on this forum ?

Please, i want to post something serious. Please help me out.

At the bottom of the page, there should be a space for you to comment on this subject.....

This is the Thailand News forum.....if you want to comment on another subject, go to the forum search area and search for the forum that suits what you want...

Edited April 30, 2015 by ChrisY1

[Local Drunk]

BANGKOK: -- Among the Army's weapons confiscated by red-shirt protesters in April 2010, only one M-16 rifle has been returned to the military, the rest are still missing, Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd said in testimony yesterday.

The missing weapons included 25 Tavor rifles, four M-16 rifles and 39 shotguns, he said in testimony before the House of Representative's sub-committee on political development and mass communication.

The weapons belonging to the Army were confiscated by red protesters during the bloody protest in April 2010. They were displayed on the red-shirts' stage at Rajdamnern Avenue on the day, he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/589905-military-arms-seized-by-red-shirt-protesters-missing/

None of these fire .308/.338 rounds ?

The Criminal Court Thursday announced the result of inquest into the killing of Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, saying he was killed by a high-velocity bullet with unknown type and size.

Where did they say it was that type of round?

It doesn't ? that's what I'm getting at as mentioned in my prior posts high velocity doesn't tell what weapon it came from, it leaves it very open to interpretation as both sides had and used high velocity weapons.

The autopsy should have been able to gauge the calibre of the round, depending on the entry wound sized, and the various parts left behind as the round hit bone and tissue on the way through.

If they had pinpointed a calibre such as .308/.338 then only one side used these, so there wouldn't have been any doubt as to who fired the fatal rounds, but leaving it at "high velocity" neither implicates either side. ?

Why do I keep bringing up the .308/.338 issue you might add, well there are reports/claims of protestors having Been shot in the head by army marksmen/snipers and they use .308/.338 chambered weapons. As well as 5.56mm ?

Claims are not the same as evidence. .308/338 rounds are not the the exclusive territory of the Thai military any more than the RPGs that hit the BTS at Si Lom.

[harleyclarkey]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Yes. Sound do bounce and can give a totally false sense of direction.

However it dependes on where the witnesses were standing. Were they 10m or 500m away. Big difference. For such a round to cause such massive damage the gun report would have been very loud indeed. If you were within, say 100-200m, I am sure you could tell if it came from one side or the other. The witnesses were very conveniently ignored.

Were there not any forensic checking of bullet marks on the ground or other objects nearby by these unfortunate victims? The bullets passed through their bodies (?). This would establish the direction with 100% certainty.

Yes....devestating for the families to have their loved ones murdered and no justice prevails....nor will it ever in Thailand.

Wrong! There is justice here, but don't confuse it with justice in the west. If fact, forget everything you ever learned in the the west when your plane lands here because you're not in the west anymore. It's more profitable to unlearn here.

.

LD if you really believe that there is Justice in Thailand then you need to get out more often.

So Justice in the west is of a different variety as against Thai justice. On that you are right.

The west has, in general, a far higher sense of justice and getting to the truth.

My plane landed there over 25 years ago. I also lived in Thailand so I have a good handle on the country.

Any land office official, policeman, lawyer, or judge can be bought. I know. Two of my friends have first hand experience after been cheated and scammed out of many tens of millions of Bhat by these very same people.

[Fat Haggis]

I have yet to see any pictures of redshirts armed with Sniper rifles, an M16 with a scope on it isn't classed as one, and that would only be 5.56mm anyway.

But you're correct, evidence is what's needed to support that claim.

Interesting claims made here ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/7729061/Home-made-rockets-vs-army-snipers-on-the-frontline-of-the-Thai-protests.html

Edited April 30, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[harleyclarkey]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Yes. Sound do bounce and can give a totally false sense of direction.

However it dependes on where the witnesses were standing. Were they 10m or 500m away. Big difference. For such a round to cause such massive damage the gun report would have been very loud indeed. If you were within, say 100-200m, I am sure you could tell if it came from one side or the other. The witnesses were very conveniently ignored.

Were there not any forensic checking of bullet marks on the ground or other objects nearby by these unfortunate victims? The bullets passed through their bodies (?). This would establish the direction with 100% certainty.

Yes....devestating for the families to have their loved ones murdered and no justice prevails....nor will it ever in Thailand.

ok so there were people called witnesses that testified certain things, these people were supposedly close to man when he was shot, they are likely redshirts, does anyone actually think these people are going to tell the truth, it is more likely they were hand picked and given a script as to what to say, I don't trust or believe any of it especially if this man was murdered by protestors because he wasn't doing what he was told i.e you cannot film us with guns and grenade launchers attacking the security forces, so basically you cannot trust any eye witness statements presented to the courts from these people, I would have thought anyone would understand why

and as for the debate about ballistics well there are so many elements to this and very few here have a clue, an armour piercing round for example will pass right through a body regardless of hitting bone or not, all you will have is a small entry and exit point - although other factures will influence this too, rounds used by the military are wide ranging and all have different characteristics dependant on many elements, unless the round fired was recovered at the scene then it is virtually impossible to conclude anything adding to that you would also need either video footage or a reliable witness to determine where this man was standing and what direction he was facing, his camera footage might hold some vital clues but I wonder where that went ?

I, like you, have no idea where the witnesses were standing. I stste this in my post.....it dependes on where the witnesses were standing.

I would guess that witnesses would be able to tell with 100% accuracy which way the murdered victims were facing/standing. Wouldn't you if someone got shot beside you??

I am also a little aware, being in a gun club, about ballistics. There, again, should have been exit marks for the bullets in the immediate vicinity.....ground, wall, pillar, building, etc.

[tbthailand]

Currently Thailand is controlled by the military.

"It cannot be said who the shooters were or which direction the bullets came from," the judge said.

Funny how these two sentences seem to be a natural ordering....

Not at all are they in any order. If the police that investigated the crime couldn't determine, the shooter, how could the courts? You seem to be able to do it with ease. Why haven't you presented your evidence to the courts? Please share with them your first hand knowledge of that night so that this case can be laid to rest.Why have you taken so long to do it?

there was evidence presented which came from witnesses. There was evidence from the autopsies. Past courts have been able to render judgements in similar cases with similar evidence, but this one could not ...

Could be coincidence... of course! But given the military's history of meddling in these cases and specifically the interference from the generals leading the crackdown, as well as the complicity of the courts in the politics of the last decade, it is not unreasonable to think that there could be a connection between the two.

[In Town]

I am also a little aware, being in a gun club, about ballistics. There, again, should have been exit marks for the bullets in the immediate vicinity.....ground, wall, pillar, building, etc.

There are still plenty of bullet scars there, all from the direction of the military.

[rubl]

None of these fire .308/.338 rounds ?

The Criminal Court Thursday announced the result of inquest into the killing of Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, saying he was killed by a high-velocity bullet with unknown type and size.

Where did they say it was that type of round?

It doesn't ? that's what I'm getting at as mentioned in my prior posts high velocity doesn't tell what weapon it came from, it leaves it very open to interpretation as both sides had and used high velocity weapons.

The autopsy should have been able to gauge the calibre of the round, depending on the entry wound sized, and the various parts left behind as the round hit bone and tissue on the way through.

If they had pinpointed a calibre such as .308/.338 then only one side used these, so there wouldn't have been any doubt as to who fired the fatal rounds, but leaving it at "high velocity" neither implicates either side. ?

Why do I keep bringing up the .308/.338 issue you might add, well there are reports/claims of protestors having Been shot in the head by army marksmen/snipers and they use .308/.338 chambered weapons. As well as 5.56mm ?

Claims are not the same as evidence. .308/338 rounds are not the the exclusive territory of the Thai military any more than the RPGs that hit the BTS at Si Lom.

It's getting a bit of topic, but on 2010-04-22 there were two attacks on multi-colour shirts near the Dusit on Silom rd. with at least five M79 fired grenades, one of which hit BTS Station Sala Daeng and killed a woman, injured a few others there at the station. The second attack only injured 75 or so of the multi-colour shirt protesters I think.