Having A House Built

[KhunDennis]

After it is all said and done, I and my wife are the proud owners of a stylish 3 bdrm house in the country. To be fair about it , I will say that it is good looking and comfortable to live in, but getting it done has to be the worst experiance of my life, no question about it. One totaly frustrating experiance after another. Dealing with people with a childish attitude, poor work ethics, lack of concern for quality, and contracters losing interest in the project when nearing completion. After a year of living here, we still have roof leaks, toylets that don't function when it rains heavy, and cement work that looks like it is fourty years old and patched up. I can honestly say I would not do it again. I think I would consider buying a used house and remodeling it , at least you can see what you are getting before you lay down the cash. Besides for some reason new property seems to look old by the time it is built in Thailand, they just can't seem to get everything together and done at the same time. One thing is finished fine and the next guy comes along, to do another, job and messes up the prior work time after time. I guess that is enough ranting for one go, but it has been such a negative expeiance, it is hard to like the house, like you think you would.

[bcross2001]

After it is all said and done, I and my wife are the proud owners of a stylish 3 bdrm house in the country. To be fair about it , I will say that it is good looking and comfortable to live in, but getting it done has to be the worst experiance of my life, no question about it. One totaly frustrating experiance after another. Dealing with people with a childish attitude, poor work ethics, lack of concern for quality, and contracters losing interest in the project when nearing completion. After a year of living here, we still have roof leaks, toylets that don't function when it rains heavy, and cement work that looks like it is fourty years old and patched up. I can honestly say I would not do it again. I think I would consider buying a used house and remodeling it , at least you can see what you are getting before you lay down the cash. Besides for some reason new property seems to look old by the time it is built in Thailand, they just can't seem to get everything together and done at the same time. One thing is finished fine and the next guy comes along, to do another, job and messes up the prior work time after time. I guess that is enough ranting for one go, but it has been such a negative expeiance, it is hard to like the house, like you think you would.

Question - was this all done with Thai labor and were you the contractor?

Barry

[Khutan]

I ended up getting very angry over some things that happened building our house. If fact a year or so down the track, I am only now starting to call it "Our house"

Things I did not properly realise :

* You pay the builder seperate to the materials for the building.

* You have no control over the time-frame of the building.

* Asking them to work slower and take extra care does not always result in quality.

* Most of the building crew only spoke Khmer

* There is no control over the labourers, once they are employed for a day, then they get their 150 - 200B, regardless of what they do

This is a photo of one of the guys who turned up to "Sleep off" a hangover

Things I did do:

* Inspected other examples of the builders work.

* Asked those people what problems they had with the project.

* Set a practical Budget for materials.

* Had the builder reminded a number of times that he was working on a "Fixed Price" and that he would be getting Progress payments as per our mutual agreement.

What really happened.

* The Materials budget went from 400K to about 1 million Baht.

* Some of the work they pobviously had not done before was not well done e.g. Upstairs shower does not drain properly, there was exposed wiring in the wet areas.

* Some things were not done to a proper standard, and I found over 100 faults with the construction. Sure many of them were minor, however some really needed fixing.

* The builder did come back and fix the stuff he felt was needed to fix, however the minor stuff got left. When I pushed him on the "Minor Stuff" he was not interested and left, never to be seen again.

I am slowly fixing the minor problems and the drainage in the upstairs bathroom. I have also myself had to do all the stormwater and wastewater drainage except for the septic.

In all, I am now 75% happy, I know my wife loves the place, and I am now putting up with it.

I am sorry to hear that you had such problems, and I don't really know how to get them fixed unless you hire a different builder. Lucky for me the 3 best labourers were from the village, so we just get them to do regular jobs.

[KhunDennis]

We had a contracter and they had Thai Labor. We looked at a house they had built, and it looked good. We also paid as the work was completed, but it fell apart in the last go around. There were two parters, contracters, but one left town and the other less knowlageble one, was left holding the bag. Khutan much of what you said also aplies to me. We are also fixing things as we go.

[astral]

I think one secret is a contract that says 90% on completion,

and the other 10% within 3 months when all defects have been fixed!!

[GuestHouse]

Travel around Thailand and you'll come across five star hotels, fabulous resorts, amaizing offices and shopping centers that boast a quality of fittings and finish that shames most of the western equivelents.

Well who do you think built them?

[Swelters]

I don't have an answer to this yet, but just started to describe some of the mistakes we've made on our house project, some heartbreaking. On the other hand I think something is coming out of this that you couldn't get anywhere else in the world, for more info see:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...blogid=396&

Edited September 7, 2006 by Swelters

[Thaddeus]

Building a house here, especially in the more rural areas, can be an arduous task.

But there are some parts of it that are quite enjoyable, like the steel toed flip flops and Foster Grant welding sunglasses that the health and safety officer makes them wear.

[KhunDennis]

GuestHouse: I am fully aware that there are some fine craftsmen in Thailand, which makes it even more frustrating when you see people that are working on your house that simply don't care about what they are doing and or don't know what they are doing. It all comes back to the money, some people take pride in thier work and some just want to make easy money as fast as possible. It is no different in the US, I saw it daily in my own trade there. It can be controled to a degree with a good superviser, but without that, you get shody work. And another point is if the workers are not properly looked after by the contracter, like getting paid well, they get an attitude also. Unfortunaly we had two partners and one of them used a lot of the money for his own wants and left everyone in a lurch. A third party, a store in Lampang was suposed to be collecting the payments and handling the building materials, and seeing things were done, did not work out either. It left too many people, to point finger at the other guy and say it was thier fault.

[Goldenbead]

We did several upgrades to our house last year including a guest cottage, pool, workshop/laundry and garage conversion to bedroom. It was the most frustrating thing ever. My husband was away most of the time so I oversaw the work.

Almost one year down the track, there are still some small things that are not finished. We are battling with our contractor to get in here and finish.

Never again. I want a ready made dream home please!

[Tapgow]

Well who do you think built them?

Obviously not the contractors involved in these cases. Nobody is saying that all thai contractors are rubbish, these guys/gals are just relating their experiences. Chill out dude.

[udon]

Well who do you think built them?

Come on GH, what's the real answer?

[DragonLad]

This is a photo of one of the guys who turned up to "Sleep off" a hangover

Good pic!!! Maybe he was so tired of building the house!!

[DragonLad]

Travel around Thailand and you'll come across five star hotels, fabulous resorts, amaizing offices and shopping centers that boast a quality of fittings and finish that shames most of the western equivelents.

Well who do you think built them?

foreign contractors

[udon]

for more info see:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...blogid=396&

Good blog Jack, esp the 1st para

Did you use sketchup5 for the image?

[billaaa777]

Wow, oh wow, what a great thread.

I buy, design, renovate and sell condos in Pattaya and will try to offer some insight and a little help to first time builders here.

What you said about the contractors losing interest near the end of the job could not be more correct. Unlike, in the US where I come from where the vast majority of the profit is made at the end of the project. The Thai contractors make a percentage of their profit all the way through the job. An example would be, you agreed to pay so much for the tile to be laid and once the tail is put down they want to be paid for the entire amount. But, as the project goes on that tile is going to become dirty and will need to be cleaned, but they have already be paid for it and do not consider it any longer their responsibility. So once their cost to do a job is the same as the amount you are going to pay them, their thinking is to find another job where they can make money. Every job has a punch out list at the end to correct all the little mistakes. You need to make sure you have a good portion of their profits in your pocket to ensure the mistakes are corrected.

So the first piece of advice I would give is to only pay 90% of the agreed to amount for each portion of the job as it is completed. This way by the end of the job you have a large portion of their profits still in your pocket, and nothing motivates a Thai more than you having his money.

Remember, most of the Thai contractors are living hand to mouth. They need that money each week just to live. And as for the labors, some of them need that money each day to live. Since the contractors always want to get paid at least once a week to pay their labor you need to be very careful to only pay for the work that was done which you are happy with. And out of that amount to hold back a little as additional motivation to get the job done the way you want it once you get near completion. Keep their PROFIT in your pocket until you HAPPY with everything. Pay them just enough to keep the job going so they can eat and their labors get paid.

Next piece of advice, there are a few ways to negotiate a job. An example would be; how much to tile the floor, including tile and labor? Well if you do that you can be sure the contractors is going to buy the cheapest, crapest, ugliest tile he can find to maximize his profits. Always negotiate for their labor and BUY YOUR OWN MATERIALS. And NEVER but NEVER tell them to come to the store with you and you will buy what they need. They will buy enough for your job, their sister’s job and their mother’s job. But, there is a problem here, because there are times a first time novice will not have enough knowledge to know what materials are needed. An example would be, when attempting to move the waters pipes for the shower, bathtub or water-heater. In this case it is better to negotiate for both parts and labor. And keep your fingers crossed.

Maybe my strongest piece of advice and something I do for every job is create an Excel spreadsheet detailing what is to be done and the amount to be paid for each portion of the job. So for the tiling work there would be 10 lines or so and each time I paid him a little I have him sign the sheet and I sign the sheet. On the first day of the job I give the contractor a copy and I keep a copy and in order for him to get paid he must have his sheet and sign both copies.

Remember, strong math skills are not easy to find in Thailand, much less with a contractor. So by doing this it lets them know exactly where they are and you are helping them to budget their time and cost. Other wise in all too many cases they just get lost and keep asking for more money.

I remember some of my first jobs, I paid cabinet makers for cabinets that never came, I had electrician show up once a week and think that was adequate, as if I was going to wait on them 3 months to get the job done that should have taken a week. I had carpenters leave ¼ gaps in the molding they were installing and think that was OK. You are going to here time and time again, “Well that’s how it’s done in Thailand.” Don’t go for that crap, if they don’t want to do the work to your satisfaction get somebody else.

After building 40 condos or so last year in Pattaya I now have an exceptional crew that I have trained and nurtured to build to western standards. It was not easy and I could not imaging attempting to start my first project over again knowing what I know now. I have it down now to where we always build on budget and can knock out a single unit in four weeks and a double in seven weeks.

I hope some of this information helps and if you’re building in Pattaya you can always PM for any additional advice.

Best of Luck!

[astral]

A few additional thoughts that come to mind.

Make sure your contractor can read. I know it sounds basic, but I only found out later that mine could not.

Don't get me wrong he was an excellent at his trade.

His sons did the quantity surveying, to come up with the price.

I should have twigged when he said,"Is this OK," for the postion of an internal wall.

He had the plan with the dimensions for position. Why ask me?

If someone does not turn up, do not be afraid to sack them.

I had arranged for an electrician to come and give me an estimate.

He arrived 3 days late and was most surprised when I said I did not want his services........

Watch like a hawk at all stages. If something is wrong just say STOP and

call the foreman, or whoever you have in charge.

He will have sub-contracted and these people will go on blindly to a point where it becomes impossible to correct the fault.

Good luck

[simon43]

The most frustrating part of building our family hotel in Phuket was that I am not allowed to actively help out with the building works. IE - I have no WP for this work and it's probably a prohibited profession anyway.

So, although I am very skilled in all aspects of plumbing and electrics, I had to 'trust' the workman and supposed experts with these areas.

Of course, their standard of work was appalling. They were great at the structural aspects, such as metalwork, roof tiles, concrete pillers and floors etc. But the finishing touches were beyond them.

All last week they have been breaking up the concrete floors in our bathrooms because they positioned the waste pipes in the wrong place

This time, I explained everything in Thai to them before they did the job, and gave them a picture with everything written in Thai. I have stood and watched them work, and checked everything.

But still they made some very basic errors:

- They placed an access cap on the end of the toilet waste pipe and then routed another pipe so that it was impossible to take of the access cap!

- They used 3-way pipe connectors (Tees), but didn't realise that they are 'handed', (that is, they must be placed so as not to impede the water/waste flow in the pipe).

What I have noticed is that Thai workmen seem to like to get stuck into the job immediately, without standing and thinking for a while about the task before picking up tools. This often leads to mistakes..

Overall, I would do it again, but pay much more attention to the finishing aspects of the job.

Simon

[udon]

What a great thread! to all.

[cnxpat]

I don't have an answer to this yet, but just started to describe some of the mistakes we've made on our house project, some heartbreaking. On the other hand I think something is coming out of this that you couldn't get anywhere else in the world, for more info see:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...blogid=396&

Very good and interesting blog. I will start buidling a modest house, in the countryside on our farmland soon. Budget propably 10% of what you're looking at sofar!

I also really like the design you did, I just downloaded sketchup and see if I can have a go at it. Could you by any chance share the the source of what you designed?

thanks, and good luck!

[suiging]

I find the key to getting the right guy is only employ him after you have at least two independent recommendations from other Farang. The way the guys work for Farangs is often very different from the way they work for folk of their own race who fully understand the language and the way things work in the LOS. From what the OP has experienced you would never go with his contractor but other folk in the thread have better experiences. Not all Thai contractors are bad, far from it. However one thing for certain, do your homework before you take the plunge. Not all bad, but the majority................?

[Swelters]

for more info see:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...blogid=396&

Good blog Jack, esp the 1st para

Did you use sketchup5 for the image?

Thanks for the comment.

Yes, we used Sketchup a lot, including dimensioning and details. Explaining what you have in mind to yourself, your partner, and your craft people is a real adventure, and we tried many techniques from cartooning to making a physical models, see pix and various discussions in the blog. Many Thai are not experienced in reading two dimensional plans, whether constrction plans or maps, and one of my purposes was to explore alternative methods of representation.

[KhunDennis]

What a lot of interesting comments and ideas, from you all. I wish that I had some of you as mentors before I had this house built. I will be the first to admit that my knowledge in construction is nil and I trusted the contracters too much. They talked the good talk, but fell down on the walk. They were masterfull at making escuses though. Most things can be fixed, but things like a nice slate floor we paid extra for, was put down without a nice flush top surface, so there are edges that stick up, that anoy me when I clean it. Things like that can't be fixed so easily.

[Swelters]

I don't have an answer to this yet, but just started to describe some of the mistakes we've made on our house project, some heartbreaking. On the other hand I think something is coming out of this that you couldn't get anywhere else in the world, for more info see:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...blogid=396&

Very good and interesting blog. I will start buidling a modest house, in the countryside on our farmland soon. Budget propably 10% of what you're looking at sofar!

I also really like the design you did, I just downloaded sketchup and see if I can have a go at it. Could you by any chance share the the source of what you designed?

thanks, and good luck!

Thanks, and good luck on your project.

The basic design is simply two traditional Thai houses, the dimensions are standard, set in an "L" plan. One of them we rebuilt pretty much as it was. The second one we used the basic 3X3meterx3meter floor plan but used a modern wood frame construction style with a concrete slab in the bathroom and a mostly open kitchen with bar, per my fantasy sketch earlier in the thread. Keep tuned to the blog, I plan to lay it all out step by step in the end, with a few digressions.

If you go with Isan style floor plans, which I also like, you will have a lot more design flexibility.

I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

[Napolean_Complex]

This is a photo of one of the guys who turned up to "Sleep off" a hangover

Good pic!!! Maybe he was so tired of building the house!!

Its cause your a slave driver. The poor guy is almost dead from exhaustion!!!

You should be ashamed of yourself

[udon]

Swelters, stick a note in this thread whenever you update your blog.

[Vespa]

I find it amazing at how poor the “standard” level of craftsmanship in Thailand is.

On the most part it is really crap . While you have Sheratons that have top notch labor and the finish product is as expected.

I think any company that can assemble a crew of competent skilled laborers such as these would have great prospects for the discerning owner who can now easily buy quality furnishings from places like Home Pro and have them installed properly.

May even be a very good business prospect.

[jayenram]

Watch like a hawk at all stages.

The very best advice. I supervised my house construction 95% of the time. The w*rk done during the other 5% of the time just had to be knocked down/replaced when I returned.

I did not use a contractor but employed a reasonably competent foreman.

[chownah]

"..............

I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

Masonry walls should be shaded at all times if possible. Build extra large overhangs (eaves)...mine are mostly 1.5 metres. Use strategically planted trees and shrubs. Use retractable awnings and shade screens. A shaded masonry wall will allow LESS heat to penetrate than a wood wall....also, if cool night air is circulated inside then the masonry gets cooled and acts as a big heat sink during the day so the room will stay even cooler. Where I live the houses are typically masonry on the first floor and wood on the second floor. When it gets really hot people take their mid-day naps on a thin pad right on the concrete first floor surrounded by masonry walls.

With either masonry walls or wood walls, there must be some insulation to keep heat from the roof from traveling down into the living space. There are many different types of insulation and I won't discuss them all but I will say that from what I have seen the best in most situations is blanket insulation laying right on top of the ceiling.....but other people have other ideas as to what type of insulation is best for the roof/attic area.

Chownah

P.S. Building wood houses is the biggests reason why Thailand now is almost completely deforested while originally it was almost completely forested. Building wood houses is not a trend I would like to see promoted....and masonry houses are argueably better in almost every way.

Chownah

[Swelters]

Swelters, stick a note in this thread whenever you update your blog.

Yes, there is some new stuff on the blog this morning, "Sawdust Memories". Thanks for the interest.

The URL is http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?au...gid=396&st=

Swelters