failed retirement extension Chiang Mai

[ChrisKC]

My wife and I spent a total of ten and a half hours (from 3.30 am to 2 pm) at Chiang Mai Immigration yesterday to apply for an eleventh consecutive retirement extension that eventually failed.

Why? Because we could not show with irrefutable proof that over B1million had been with the same bank for three months, only two months. Because of a few transfers and a closed account between three different branches, no single branch was prepared to provide documentray evidence to allow a total picture to emerge. This was in spite of of having all bank books being available.

Our situation now is this: we have to wait another month before the B1m is considered valid for three months. This will involve us in a 27 day overstay which is not difficult to calculate but is B27,000, not to mention endorsements in our passports.

Another option we have is to use half the required B800,000 required from another branch where proof is available for three months and to use my pension to top up. Unfortunately, The UK Consulate in Chiang Mai is now closed and the Bangkok Office has told us it takes 10 working days to provide a pension letter that proves entitlement. And it isnt easy from a distance: They will only accept a money order as payment. If things go according to plan we are in for about 14 days of overstay

Every year a letter of pension entitlement is required but surely they know at Immigration that pensions are for ever until you die!

I want to say that the two Officers involved at Chiang Mai Immigration were very nice and remained calm (so did we) and were very sorry for us.

How can I now deal with a 90 day report I have to file on 18th May? I have until the 24th to do that, right?

Three comments:

I guess this is a bullet we have to bite.

That a lesson has to be learned about being 100% vigilant regarding, not only for the B800,000 or more being shown and, to avoid problems like ours that it is in ONE account - and don't mess with it.

Why did we close accounts and set up different ones in different branches? Because the interest rates were slightly more attractive. Interest rates are so low it is difficult to justify moving money about.

[glegolo]

Come on Sir!!!!

Get yourself an extension based on marriage instead, only 400K needed...

Glegolo

Edited May 9, 2015 by glegolo

[khwaibah]

He could get a 60 day extension based on marriage which would give his money a chance to do the 90 day seasoning.

[ChrisKC]

You think after 12 years living in Thailand I am not aware of your point? My wife isn't Thai she is English!

[khwaibah]

You think after 12 years living in Thailand I am not aware of your point? My wife isn't Thai she is English!

Don't get upset you did not disclose that in your first post. It looks like you may need to exit Thailand and get a single entry O visa based on retirement from Lao. Wish you the best. UJ this OP needs you.

[rawhod]

I do my retirement extension based on pension income, not money in the bank, so what do I know...

...but, moving money to get a better rate of interest in a Thai Bank (0.001% more?) when you are using the money in the bank for your extension....

Edit.(just seen extra information from you) After 12 years in Thailand you certainly should know better.

Edited May 9, 2015 by rawhod

[ChrisKC]

You are right, i didn't make it clear that that my wife is English. Also, that we were making joint application as a married couple but, as it relates to problems WE had, has little relevance - the money and the three month rule involved is the same

I am aware of the futility of being greedy as I have already mentioned it.

[h90]

Immigration opens at 3.30AM?

Did you try a Visa broker? Might be easier and cheaper.

[khwaibah]

Immigration opens at 3.30AM?

Did you try a Visa broker? Might be easier and cheaper.

Apparently you do not deal with CNX immigration.

[NancyL]

Come on people -- Please have some pity -- of course Immigration doesn't open at 3:30 am, but that's when one must come to get in the queue to be sure to be seen that day, especially for a retirement extension. It's common knowledge that's the situation in Chiang Mai. When I read the OP, I had no difficulty in reading between the lines to see that it was a husband and wife as-a-dependent situation, due to the way he was explaining to calculation of the overstay fines -- for two people.

Here's a suggestion -- could the overstay fines be reduced by doing a border run to "buy some time". I don't know about people from the U.K. Do they receive 15 days or 30 days when they exit and re-enter by land?

A few lessons learned:

1. the obvious one, as spelled out by the OP -- don't move your visa bank account funds around during the seasoning period. Never. Period. Full stop. The extra interest you think you'll earn isn't worth it. There have been reports of people having difficulty when they close and reopen an account at the same branch bank. It would be even worse if they change banks.

2. Don't wait until three days before your extension expires to apply. You can apply 30 days early and your extension is stamped for 365 days after the expiration of the previous one, so you don't "lose time" Had the OP applied 30 days prior to expiration, he would have had longer to sort out the problem without paying as steep an overstay fine.

3. One that the OP hasn't thought of -- it's never a good idea for a spouse to be carried as a dependent on a retirement visa if over age 50. The OP mentions having a bank account of B1m. Is it that big a stretch to have two bank accounts of B800,000? Reason I ask, is that if the visa hold dies, the spouse no longer has a valid visa, has seven days to leave the country to apply for a new visa and the bank account is frozen until the Final Will is probated. I just was involved in exactly this situation with a British-British couple. For us, Hubby and I each have our own visas and our own bank accounts in Thailand. If something happened to one of us, the other would be able to manage knowing that joint bank accounts and sole bank accounts of the deceased are frozen while the Final Will is sorted.

[ChrisKC]

I have read that we can leave Thailand and get a 30 day tourist (visa) or 60 day tourist visa from Laos. Surely this would compromise our non-immigrant 'O' visa already in passports?

Edited May 9, 2015 by ChrisKC

[carmine]

Come on Sir!!!!

Get yourself an extension based on marriage instead, only 400K needed...

Glegolo

You can't once you've already been on a retirement visa i think. Perhaps someone could confirm this?

[NancyL]

I have read that we can leave Thailand and get a 30 day tourist (visa) or 60 day tourist visa from Laos. Surely this would compromise our non-immigrant 'O' visa already in passports?

Did the nice officers at CM Immigration actually say they'd extend your permission to stay if you return after the money is appropriately aged and all you have to do is pay the overstay fine? That you don't have to leave the country?

I've asked this question of them when helping people who have gone on overstay because they've been in the hospital and been told the person has to leave the country to pay the overstay fine. There is nothing they can extend at CM Immigration once the extension expires.

[NancyL]

Come on Sir!!!!

Get yourself an extension based on marriage instead, only 400K needed...

Glegolo

You can't once you've already been on a retirement visa i think. Perhaps someone could confirm this?

Yes you can if you have a Thai wife! The OP doesn't. But, even with a Thai wife many offices don't like to change someone from a retirement to a marriage extension because of the extra paperwork involved. They need to hear a "good excuse", like the applicant wants to get a work permit, which can't be done on a retirement extension. They're not as sympathetic to hearing "I don't have enough money in the bank"

[NancyL]

Now that I think about it, if the OP has to leave the country the only place and visa that makes sense is to go to Vientiane to get a 90 day O visa, because that is the only visa that can be be extended for 12 months for retirement in Chiang Mai. With all the others discussed -- 30 day visa exempt and 60 day tourist visa - an extension due to retirement isn't possible in Chiang Mai any more. It used to be, but they stopped doing it in December and now applicants either have to go to Bangkok (twice) to convert to an O visa or to Vientiane to get a 90 day O visa.

I'm still waiting to learn if CM Immigration actually told the OP they'd be able to get their 12 month extension by simply paying the overstay fine and not having to leaving CM. I doubt it.

[Swiss1960]

I have read that we can leave Thailand and get a 30 day tourist (visa) or 60 day tourist visa from Laos. Surely this would compromise our non-immigrant 'O' visa already in passports?

According to his post, OP is living in Thailand for (min) 10 years on retirement extensions, so his Non-Imm O is long expired.

I also think that leaving Thailand before the actual retirement extension expires (thus not being bothered with overstays and possible fines and stamps), getting a new Visa abroad and then re-apply for the retirement extension with the new Visa might be a solution?

That is what everybody would have to do if they leave Thailand with or without re-entry permit and their extension expires while they are abroad. But not sure if that option (travel out to get a new Visa) is suitable for the OP

[mxyzptlk]

Come on Sir!!!!

Get yourself an extension based on marriage instead, only 400K needed...

Glegolo

You can't once you've already been on a retirement visa i think. Perhaps someone could confirm this?

Not true.

I'm on a marriage extension currently and my last extension was based on retirement...no problem to alternate between the two

[skatewash]

I have read that we can leave Thailand and get a 30 day tourist (visa) or 60 day tourist visa from Laos. Surely this would compromise our non-immigrant 'O' visa already in passports?

Assuming you are from the UK and you do a border run to Laos you would receive a 30-day visa exempt entry. This could be extended for an additional 30 days at the immigration office. But you cannot directly apply for a retirement extension based on having a visa exempt entry. You would first have to convert your visa exempt entry to a non-O, a process that involves visiting Bangkok immigration twice (10 days apart).

It might be better to leave the country and obtain a non-O visa from Laos or Cambodia. Thirty days before your 90 day permission to stay ends you could go to the immigration office and apply for your retirement extension. Since this retirement extension would be a new one (rather than a renewal) you would only have to have the money in the account for 2 months seasoning (rather than 3 months).

[KhunBENQ]

The OP mentions having a bank account of B1m. Is it that big a stretch to have two bank accounts of B800,000?

?? Just one of the confusions in this thread.

If married to an English wife the normal route would be to get an extension for the husband with 800'000 and based on that a dependent extension for the wife without further financials.

Or not?

There are many ways to produce some headaches.

I am out here.

Edited May 9, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[NickJ]

Hope it works out Chris. My Mom used to say where there is a will there is a way. Good luck.

[ChrisKC]

I am beginning to get confused.

The Immigration Officer told us we could get a pension letter in a few days but he was wrong. He anticipated us arriving back with money and time period resolved before the current extension expires. He gave us back all our papers and said we could use the same application and forms and even gave us our queue tickets back so we would be first in line. Therefore we left without pursuing the issue of overstay. Only upon asking the Bangkok Office were we told 10 working days - no urgent cases accepted for reducing this time.

Its an interesting point about the non-immigrant visa having "expired long ago". I am sure this cannot be right as both my wife and I have been using the same one for at least eight years. She got hers in UK and I got mine in Penang. Every year since then, Immigration Officers have examined our passports and nobody ever raised the issue. Does a non-immigrant 'O' visa have a limited life?

[skatewash]

The OP mentions having a bank account of B1m. Is it that big a stretch to have two bank accounts of B800,000?

?? Just one of the confusions in this thread.

If married to an English wife the normal route would be to get an extension for the husband with 800'000 and based on that a dependent extension for the wife without further financials.

Or not?

There are many ways to produce some headaches.

I am out here.

Yes, that would work. In general, I believe the B800,000 needs to be in the sole name of the person applying for the extension. Then the spouse would qualify for a dependent extension, based on the other person's retirement extension.

However, as Nancy as pointed out, there is good reason to prefer that both spouses have their own retirement extension. This would require that each spouse have their own account with B800,000 in his or her name (only). The disadvantage of using the dependent extension is that if the person on whom the dependent spouse depends for their extension were to die the dependent spouse would lose their extension (have 7 days to leave the country and obtain their own visa). Certainly not the sort of thing you want to do a week after your spouse dies. Nancy also mentions the possibility of accounts being frozen on someone's death which would greatly complicate matters. So, if one can afford it it seems better for each spouse to have his or her own retirement extension.

[Swiss1960]

Its an interesting point about the non-immigrant visa having "expired long ago". I am sure this cannot be right as both my wife and I have been using the same one for at least eight years. She got hers in UK and I got mine in Penang. Every year since then, Immigration Officers have examined our passports and nobody ever raised the issue. Does a non-immigrant 'O' visa have a limited life?

Yes, it has. Once you get a Non-Imm O (either 1y or 90d), it means that once you activate it (enter the country), it allows you to stay in the country for the period given. After that, you must either leave the country and - if you have a re-entry permit coming with it - activate the next period (1y or 90d) OR you apply for an extension of stay based on retirement or marriage. What you do every year is renew your extension of stay, not your Visa, the Visa is purely proof that your initial extension was given to you legally.

with "expired" I mean that when you leave the country for some time, you could NOT reenter based on your Non-Imm O Visa after the expiry, but only based on the extention which must have a re-entry permit attached to it. That is why me and other people did write that one option for you and your wife is to leave, apply for new 90d Non-Imm O Visas and restart the extention process during the last 30d of your stay. That would be an alternative to risking the overstay fee (btw, I think it is max 20K Baht) or worse, getting caught by police on the street without valid permission to stay and risk detention and being sent out.

[IMA_FARANG]

Since this is your first application the time needed for "seasoning' of the funds should have been 2 months , not 3 months.

Three months is required for renewal of an annual extension, it should have been two months for the first (initial) extension.

Apparently, Chiang Mai makes their own rules or at least has their own interpretation.

[skatewash]

Since this is your first application the time needed for "seasoning' of the funds should have been 2 months , not 3 months.

Three months is required for renewal of an annual extension, it should have been two months for the first (initial) extension.

Apparently, Chiang Mai makes their own rules or at least has their own interpretation.

From OP (emphasis added):

My wife and I spent a total of ten and a half hours (from 3.30 am to 2 pm) at Chiang Mai Immigration yesterday to apply for an eleventh consecutive retirement extension that eventually failed.

So the three month seasoning period would have applied to their situation.

However, if the OP leaves Thailand and obtains a new non-O visa, then when OP goes for his retirement extension he would only have to meet the two month seasoning period (because it would be a initial extension, rather than a renewal).

Edited May 9, 2015 by skatewash

[Swiss1960]

Since this is your first application the time needed for "seasoning' of the funds should have been 2 months , not 3 months.

Three months is required for renewal of an annual extension, it should have been two months for the first (initial) extension.

Apparently, Chiang Mai makes their own rules or at least has their own interpretation.

read the op again... he clearly talks about "eleventh consecutive retirement extension"... apparently, only not reading what is written makes you think that everybody in Thailand make their own rules..

[NancyL]

I am beginning to get confused.

The Immigration Officer told us we could get a pension letter in a few days but he was wrong. He anticipated us arriving back with money and time period resolved before the current extension expires. He gave us back all our papers and said we could use the same application and forms and even gave us our queue tickets back so we would be first in line. Therefore we left without pursuing the issue of overstay. Only upon asking the Bangkok Office were we told 10 working days - no urgent cases accepted for reducing this time.

Its an interesting point about the non-immigrant visa having "expired long ago". I am sure this cannot be right as both my wife and I have been using the same one for at least eight years. She got hers in UK and I got mine in Penang. Every year since then, Immigration Officers have examined our passports and nobody ever raised the issue. Does a non-immigrant 'O' visa have a limited life?

Oh, now I understand. He thought the process of getting an income letter was like it is for the Americans where they'd work you in pronto without an appointment for an "emergency" like this. Won't the British Embassy do the same thing? It's absolutely essential you get this resolved before your current extension expires. I suggest you appeal to a higher authority at the British Embassy or contact the British Honorary Consul in Chiang Mai, especially if travel to Vientiane is a hardship for either of you. Otherwise, you'll just have to resign yourself to an unexpected little holiday to Laos. It takes a couple days to get an O visa in Vientiane. The process is time-consuming, but not especially expensive.

Everyone's correct in saying your visas have been dead for a long time -- what you've been doing is extending your permission to stay from year-to-year. That's now the date that's relevant, not the date of your original visa. People talk about "renewing their visa" when actually they're "extending their permission to stay". Once you're here past the date of your current extension to stay, then you're on overstay and there is nothing the nice officers in Chiang Mai can do to help you. You're going to have to leave the country and apply for a new O visa in a neighboring country. That makes more sense than just getting a 30 day non-exempt entry and doing the two-visit conversion to an O visa in Bangkok.

[IMA_FARANG]

I have read that we can leave Thailand and get a 30 day tourist (visa) or 60 day tourist visa from Laos. Surely this would compromise our non-immigrant 'O' visa already in passports?

According to his post, OP is living in Thailand for (min) 10 years on retirement extensions, so his Non-Imm O is long expired.

I also think that leaving Thailand before the actual retirement extension expires (thus not being bothered with overstays and possible fines and stamps), getting a new Visa abroad and then re-apply for the retirement extension with the new Visa might be a solution?

That is what everybody would have to do if they leave Thailand with or without re-entry permit and their extension expires while they are abroad. But not sure if that option (travel out to get a new Visa) is suitable for the OP

--------------------------

My multi entry Non O visa was issued in 2010 in Hull and it was clearly marked with a one year expiration date.

Before it expired I got a retirement extension (it's an extension not a visa) for another year based on retirement in Thailand.

I have received another retirement extension every year since that original extension.

My original visa that I received in Hull expired in 2011, my yearly retirement extensions are keeping me here in Thailand legally.

So the answer is yes non O visas do have an expiration date.

[smedly]

you have 2x options

leave and get a 90 day type O in a nearby country (both of you) then renew your extension 10 days before the visa expires

get a letter from your embassy (you can use bank statements showing regular income and it doesn't take 10 days) then no seasoning of funds required and complete your extension application based on income and funds in bank, ask immigration if they are willing to wait while you get the letter - maybe slip them a sweetener of a few k baht to help them decide.

also I don't understand why the bank won't give you a letter if the funds have been in the same bank but just different accounts, maybe they didn't understand your request, if you changed bank then all bets are off

[skatewash]

you have 2x options

leave and get a 90 day type O in a nearby country (both of you) then renew your extension 10 days before the visa expires

get a letter from your embassy (you can use bank statements showing regular income and it doesn't take 10 days) then no seasoning of funds required and complete your extension application based on income and funds in bank, ask immigration if they are willing to wait while you get the letter - maybe slip them a sweetener of a few k baht to help them decide.

also I don't understand why the bank won't give you a letter if the funds have been in the same bank but just different accounts, maybe they didn't understand your request, if you changed bank then all bets are off

Things out of your control (such as getting a letter from your embassy) take as long as they take. Different experiences at different embassies. I see no reason to doubt the OP's experience with the British Embassy. Which is why you always do things as early as possible because that leaves you a cushion to deal with the unforeseen. If OP (and wife) get non-O visas from outside Thailand they should go to the immigration office at their earliest opportunity to do so, that is, 30 days before the end of their 90 day permission to stay. Some immigration offices will allow you to apply for the retirement extension up to 45 days before the end of your 90 day permission to stay. You have everything to gain from doing it early and nothing to lose.

If you do things early rather than late you may find yourself in a position where you don't have to depend on sweeteners to get by.