Vatican recognizes state of Palestine in new treaty

[Linky]

The Vatican has just announced that it will be signing a new treaty with "Palestine". I believe it provides a more substantive reason as to the recognition of "Palestine". The Vatican could not have the treaty without the recognition.

The Vatican said the accord will help secure the religious freedom of Christians in the Palestinian territories, along with the tax status and property rights of the Catholic Church there.

To those who are claiming the recognition is all about recognition of a nation, I suggest they think again. It's about money and organizational vested interests. The PLA was treating the church properties as commercial. The new treaty means that the Church of Rome just protected its financial status.

Perhaps you didnt get the memo.

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Its time the head in the sand types just realised they are wrong and the world is right.

Perhaps better medication will help those in denial.

[Ulysses G.]

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Which means pretty much nothing. The Palestinians will remain in purgatory until they stop the terrorism, sign a comprehensive peace treaty and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords.

[Thorgal]

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Which means pretty much nothing. The Palestinians will remain in purgatory until they stop the terrorism, sign a comprehensive peace treaty and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords.

It means a lot for the Christian community in Palestine...and Israel...

[Thorgal]

Historically speaking Jews have no reason to trust Popes.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Wrong.

Quote from link :

"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a Catholic. He took the name Eugenio."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

[dexterm]

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Which means pretty much nothing. The Palestinians will remain in purgatory until they stop the terrorism, sign a comprehensive peace treaty and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords.

The PA are not terrorists. That’s pretty obvious...otherwise Kerry and Netanyahu would certainly not have negotiated with their leader Mahmoud Abbas last year. Nor would both Bush and Obama have invited him to the White House.

You are deliberately muddying the waters.

They are willing to sign a comprehensive peace agreement. Have been willing to do so for years. It all depends on what Israel puts in the fine print.

If Israel will not compromise on land swaps 100% in area to land occupied since 1967...no deal.

If Israel will not allow a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem captured by Israel in 1967..no deal.

The rest...compensation for and token return of elderly Palestinian refugees, Israeli security concerns addressed, international and Israeli peacekeepers along the Jordan river... easy.

All of the above was just days away from being agreed upon at Camp David between Ehud Barak and Arafat, until Clinton who was cajoling and banging both heads together got called away to another international conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

Thereafter, Ariel Sharon took his infamous walk on Temple Mount with 1,000 bodyguards deliberately provoking trouble. Talks failed and we've had a series of right wing Israeli governments since, sabotaging peace by expanding settlements.

Hopefully this present one will fall apart, and perhaps the Zionist Union can get down to taking serious peace with Abbas.

[dexterm]

Historically speaking Jews have no reason to trust Popes.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Wrong.

Quote from link :

"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a Catholic. He took the name Eugenio."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

Thank you, Thorgal, for that interesting piece of research. That link from the Jewish Virtual Library debunks yet another old chestnut myth.

[Jingthing]

Historically speaking Jews have no reason to trust Popes.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Wrong.

Quote from link :

"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a Catholic. He took the name Eugenio."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

Why do you think I was only talking about the holocaust? This is a typical angle of Israel demonizers. Pushing the lie that Israel is only about the holocaust, that the only persecution of Jews occurred during the holocaust. The holocaust was built up to over thousands of years and a lot of the thought processes that led to old style European Judeophobia are deeply rooted in different Christian sects, including of course the all important Catholic church. It's interesting now you like a Jew source ... I guess you won't be trashing other links in future only because they are Jew sources. I use that rhetoric Jew sources because I'm sure that kind of tone is familiar to someone like you who has on multiple occasions posted direct links to virulently Judeophobic neo-Nazi type sites.

As far as the controversy over the Vatican and the holocaust ... that doesn't seem to quite fit on this thread to go into great detail about that. Again, I was talking more generally over the length of history.

[Thorgal]

@ Dexterm You're welcome !

Facts to know about the Pope :

His Italian parrents fled native Italy in 1929 to escape the fascist regime of Benito Mussolini.

He was born in 1936 in Argentine.

He made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1973, shortly after being named Provincial Superior, but his stay was shortened by the outbreak of the Yom Kippur War.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

Facts to know about Abbas :

Mahmoud Abbas was born in 1935 in Safed, Mandatory Palestine in the Galilee region.

His family fled to Syria during the 1948 Palestine war.

The theme of his doctoral dissertation was "The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

Both have more in common than only 'Angels'...

[Jingthing]

Another obsession of the Israel demonizers ... trying to blame Jews for the holocaust. It never ends.

[Jingthing]

So what do you reckon are the BORDERS of this "State of Palestine" in the angel's head:

[Jingthing]

Since the Palestinians are the rightful, indigineous peoples of the area, I can't see the problem with the Vatican (not the Pope) recognizing a Palestinian state. It was stupid to carve out an area and give it to anybody, let alone the Jews. Of course the article is about the shifting of recognition, but you'd actually have to remove your prejudices first.

Of what area exactly are the "Palestinians" indigenous to? Have you seen a map of Ottoman empire / British mandate Palestine? You do realize Jews in Europe have historically sometimes historically been called Palestinians, not to mention of course Israelites (where do you think Israel is located DUH?). The ancient Hebrew language, wonderfully revived into a living modern language by the Zionists came from WHERE do you think? New Jersey?

I assume you mean "Palestinian" Arabs. Well, sir, the Jewish people are indigenous to the land of Israel and yes that includes west bank and Gaza ... but no, I am not suggesting that Israel should include west bank and Gaza, just challenging the tone of your post. "Let alone" the Jews? That implies Jews don't belong in Israel. That's absurd to anyone who knows anything about the history of the region. Now if you had said, the SWEDES of all people, it would have made sense.

[sdanielmcev]

Jews are indigineous to Egypt. They conquered the area now called Israel. In the book of Genesis.

[Jingthing]

Jews are indigineous to Egypt. They conquered the area now called Israel. In the book of Genesis.

That's debatable actually but really, now you are getting really ridiculous.

If you're even marginally educated you know of all the archeological finds showing the ancient roots of the Jewish people in the land of Israel.

Just how ridiculous do you want to get to support your twisted agenda that Jews don't belong in Israel?

All humans originally came out of Africa.

American Indians migrated from Siberia.

Etc. etc.

The Torah devotes more than four books to the proposition that the Israelites came to Canaan after having been subjugated in Egypt for generations, and yet there is no archaeological evidence to support that they were ever in Egypt. A prolonged Egyptian stay should have left Egyptian elements in the material culture, such as the pottery found in theearly Israelite settlements in Canaan, but there are none.

In short, the traditions of servitude in Egypt, the tales of the Israelites wandering in the desert, and the stories of the conquest of the promised land all appear to be fictitious.

http://www.reformjudaism.org/were-jews-slaves-egypt

This is all tied to the obsessive Israel demonizer's pushing the hateful lie painting Jews in Israel as "white" colonialists of non-white people. Jews (generally not considered "white" historically in the diaspora but rather an "OTHER" type people) in Israel came HOME from a diaspora (and of course there were Jews there for thousands of years). They are not like Belgians in the Congo, exploiting the Congo for the sake of Belgium. That was actually colonialism and indeed among the ugliest examples of it in history. Totally different historical situations. A French Jew making Aliyah to Israel in 1948 or today is not a colonialist for the sake of France.

(No, I am not saying all Jews should feel obligated to become Israeli or that modern Jews can't be at HOME in many nations outside Israel. I am saying Israel is a legitimate nation state and that the Jewish people that are born there, were pushed there, or choose to go there DO belong in Israel.)

[dexterm]

So what do you reckon are the BORDERS of this "State of Palestine" in the angel's head:

abbasnoangel.png

In all of 67 years since it declared independence, has Israel ever confirmed what its borders are?

That is the whole crux of the problem. Israel keeps expanding, swallowing up Palestinian land making a Palestinian state impossible.

Solution. Forget about a Palestinian state. Israel could annex the lot from the Jordan to the Med. Jerusalem would be an undivided city..holy to 3 major world religions. And they would all be equal citizens.

But Israel wants its cake (all the land) and eat it too (ignore the elephant in the room...2.5 million Palestinians under occupation). It's the same problem every colonial power has ever had...what do you do with the the local population you inherit?

[Neurath]

Lot's of arumentative smoke and mirrors. If recognition by the Vatican goes some way to making it increasingly difficult for Israel to continue the policy of building exclusive settlements in the West Bank it will have usefully served it's purpose. There can be no peace without a two state solution and there can be no two state solution if settlement building continues. This much shouldn't be contentious.

[sdanielmcev]

Jews are indigineous to Egypt. They conquered the area now called Israel. In the book of Genesis.

That's debatable actually but really, now you are getting really ridiculous.

If you're even marginally educated you know of all the archeological finds showing the ancient roots of the Jewish people in the land of Israel.

Just how ridiculous do you want to get to support your twisted agenda that Jews don't belong in Israel?

All humans originally came out of Africa.

American Indians migrated from Siberia.

Etc. etc.

The Torah devotes more than four books to the proposition that the Israelites came to Canaan after having been subjugated in Egypt for generations, and yet there is no archaeological evidence to support that they were ever in Egypt. A prolonged Egyptian stay should have left Egyptian elements in the material culture, such as the pottery found in theearly Israelite settlements in Canaan, but there are none.

In short, the traditions of servitude in Egypt, the tales of the Israelites wandering in the desert, and the stories of the conquest of the promised land all appear to be fictitious.

http://www.reformjudaism.org/were-jews-slaves-egypt

This is all tied to the obsessive Israel demonizer's pushing the hateful lie painting Jews in Israel as "white" colonialists of non-white people. Jews (generally not considered "white" historically in the diaspora but rather an "OTHER" type people) in Israel came HOME from a diaspora (and of course there were Jews there for thousands of years). They are not like Belgians in the Congo, exploiting the Congo for the sake of Belgium. That was actually colonialism and indeed among the ugliest examples of it in history. Totally different historical situations. A French Jew making Aliyah to Israel in 1948 or today is not a colonialist for the sake of France.

(No, I am not saying all Jews should feel obligated to become Israeli or that modern Jews can't be at HOME in many nations outside Israel. I am saying Israel is a legitimate nation state and that the Jewish people that are born there, were pushed there, or choose to go there DO belong in Israel.)[/quote

Mistype. Sorry

[sdanielmcev]

Actually, I am very well educated. A masters in cynicism from Whattsamattah U. The basis for the claim to Israel is the Torah and all that 'Gods' people stuff. I am not bickering. This is central to the argument of any peace process

[Ulysses G.]

The claim to Israel is the United Nations General Assembly Partition of Palestine and the fact that the Israelis won the 1948 war and a number afterwards. The bible stuff was inspirational, but creating a functioning democracy with a thriving economy and one of the world's best armies is what makes it work.

[Jingthing]

Actually, I am very well educated. A masters in cynicism from Whattsamattah U. The basis for the claim to Israel is the Torah and all that 'Gods' people stuff. I am not bickering. This is central to the argument of any peace process

You obviously don't know the history of Zionism ... largely a secular political movement in origin and other lands than Israel were seriously considered. Zionism argued and most Jews eventually agreed that the Jewish people DID need a homeland after thousands of years of being persecuted in the diaspora and of course Israel was the most logical considering both the ethnic and religious connection of the Jewish people to that region ... but painting the impetus for the creation of the state of Israel simplistically as irrational religious fundamentalism is totally wrong. Of course some Jews are extremely fundamentalist, no denying that and a small minority find reasons to oppose Zionism based on that. As far as the "basis for the claim" the Israel demonization movement is obsessed with pushing the hateful agenda that Israel never deserved to exist in the first place. That gives fuel to Hamas type terrorists to continue to never accept the existence of Israel and the many millions of Israeli citizens, mostly Jews, mostly who were born there. We're not going back in time. Israel exists. To never give up on the obsession with denying the right of Israel to exist even in the first place ... is the OPPOSITE of moving towards any hope of peace.

Now ending ... I find the tone of your Israel/Palestine posts going too much into the area of obvious provocation (pot shot style) with very little substance ... so congratulations and join the crowd in my IGNORE list.

Others can enjoy being provoked by your style of posts for the sake of sport. Myself, I will pass.

[Jingthing]

Lot's of arumentative smoke and mirrors. If recognition by the Vatican goes some way to making it increasingly difficult for Israel to continue the policy of building exclusive settlements in the West Bank it will have usefully served it's purpose. There can be no peace without a two state solution and there can be no two state solution if settlement building continues. This much shouldn't be contentious.

That view, though I see the appeal is actually massively simple minded. The lack of a peace deal is NOT only because Israel builds settlements in the west bank. Stopping the settlements, even going as far as moving all out as in Gaza ABSOLUTELY does not magically bring peace. You're conveniently ignoring the other side. Even Abbas, the so called "moderate" leader has been clear he will NEVER give up on the right of return demand of Arabs into Israel ... that he will NOT commit to ending conflict with Israel even if a two state solution peace deal is signed. In other words, anyone who suggests that the lack of peace is to blame on only one side is obviously wrong.

[Neurath]

Lot's of arumentative smoke and mirrors. If recognition by the Vatican goes some way to making it increasingly difficult for Israel to continue the policy of building exclusive settlements in the West Bank it will have usefully served it's purpose. There can be no peace without a two state solution and there can be no two state solution if settlement building continues. This much shouldn't be contentious.

That view, though I see the appeal is actually massively simple minded. The lack of a peace deal is NOT only because Israel builds settlements in the west bank. Stopping the settlements, even going as far as moving all out as in Gaza ABSOLUTELY does not magically bring peace. You're conveniently ignoring the other side. Even Abbas, the so called "moderate" leader has been clear he will NEVER give up on the right of return demand of Arabs into Israel ... that he will NOT commit to ending conflict with Israel even if a two state solution peace deal is signed. In other words, anyone who suggests that the lack of peace is to blame on only one side is obviously wrong.

FIne by me. I didn't suggest it. I agree that anyone saying what you have me saying is obviously and blindingly wrong. Yes, stupid even. Anyway, I didn't say anything that you appear to be arguing with. All I said is that there cannot be piece without a two state solution and there cannot be a two state solution if the settlement building continues. You know, necessary conditions don't mean sufficient conditions? I too cannot see how the right of return can be recognized let alone accomplished. Peace is hard and there's no magic to it and you never get everything you want or think you deserve. But, without the possibility of a two state solution, something that the settlements make impossible, what is there for the Palestinians to negotiate over? Nothing. Necessary condition, not sufficient.

[Jingthing]

Again, I think many people place too much importance on the settlements in this potential process. They are an important factor, yes, but one among multiple important factors. So many say, Israel just withdraw and magic peace will happen are deluded being description.

[Neurath]

Come to think of it Israel DOES recognize the Right of Return - that is precisely what the Settlement are.

[Neurath]

Again, I think many people place too much importance on the settlements in this potential process. They are an important factor, yes, but one among multiple important factors. So many say, Israel just withdraw and magic peace will happen are deluded being description.

Agree with that completely. It is deluded, dangerous, preposterous moral cant.

[Jingthing]

Come to think of it Israel DOES recognize the Right of Return - that is precisely what the Settlement are.

You are talking (obviously) about two different rights of return.

Israel immigration policy welcomes all Jews the option of returning to their ancient homeland, Israel.

Palestinian demand for right of return demands right of return to all Palestinian Arabs into Israel (including diaspora Palestinian Arabs) ... which if granted would obviously end Israel, as their real and clear goal is a greater Palestine.

The West Bank is obviously a disputed situation. The majority of Israelis don't even support expanding those settlements but yes they keep getting expanded and that's obviously an area of conflict.

Be clear that personally I have always been for a two state solution (as if that matters).

[Neurath]

Come to think of it Israel DOES recognize the Right of Return - that is precisely what the Settlement are.

You are talking (obviously) about two different rights of return.

Israel immigration policy welcomes all Jews the option of returning to their ancient homeland, Israel.

Palestinian demand for right of return demands right of return to all Palestinian Arabs into Israel (including diaspora Palestinian Arabs) ... which if granted would obviously end Israel, as their real and clear goal is a greater Palestine.

The West Bank is obviously a disputed situation. The majority of Israelis don't even support expanding those settlements but yes they keep getting expanded and that's obviously an area of conflict.

Be clear that personally I have always been for a two state solution (as if that matters).

There's the nub of it. If the West Bank is to be considered the ancient homeland Israel, and if the right of return to that land is a policy that Israel intends pursuing, then there cannot be a two state solution that involves those lands. That's clear. There is then nothing to negotiate over and argument a pointless task. It's not pretty, but perhaps that's just the way it is.

[Jingthing]

I think you're bring ridiculous. If Israel has a reasonable Palestinian side to negotiate DIRECTLY with (and not Hamas, that division they need to solve themselves) then of course (DUH!) land for peace will definitely be part of the deal Israel would make. In such a case of a reasonable Palestinian side. Dude. Get real. Right now, neither side is at the place to make such a deal. I am not one of those fanatics blaming only the Palestinians but I totally reject those who blame only Israel. The trust is at almost zero on BOTH sides. How to fix ... I have no idea, but again, Israel just withdrawing from the west bank does not fix. The Palestinian side would see that as weakness and plan more aggressive attacks (going in for the KILL as it were) because their real goal is a greater Palestine without Jews ... there is no denying that by anyone being honest.

[Neurath]

I think you're bring ridiculous. If Israel has a reasonable Palestinian side to negotiate DIRECTLY with (and not Hamas, that division they need to solve themselves) then of course (DUH!) land for peace will definitely be part of the deal Israel would make. In such a case of a reasonable Palestinian side. Dude. Get real. Right now, neither side is at the place to make such a deal. I am not one of those fanatics blaming only the Palestinians but I totally reject those who blame only Israel. The trust is at almost zero on BOTH sides. How to fix ... I have no idea, but again, Israel just withdrawing from the west bank does not fix. The Palestinian side would see that as weakness and plan more aggressive attacks (going in for the KILL as it were) because their real goal is a greater Palestine without Jews ... there is no denying that by anyone being honest.

You know, I didn't say anything about Israel withdrawing the existing settlements from the West Bank. I don't think that's even possible now. The point I was making is pretty straightforward: Continuing to build settlements in the West Bank means that there is no possibility of a two state solution that includes those lands. I really don't think continuing their building is necessary in order not to be seen as weak. I certainly don' t blame only Israel over the current mess, but ceasing the building on the West Bank seems the only way to preserve at least something over which to negotiate. Without that what is there? I'm not baiting you and have a great deal of respect for your position and arguments here and on other issues.

[Jingthing]

Well, I agree of course, stop expanding the settlements for sure at the very least, but based on the newly formed government in Israel, hardly seems likely.

[Ulysses G.]

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Which means pretty much nothing. The Palestinians will remain in purgatory until they stop the terrorism, sign a comprehensive peace treaty and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords.

The PA are not terrorists. Thats pretty obvious...otherwise Kerry and Netanyahu would certainly not have negotiated with their leader Mahmoud Abbas last year.

Actually The Palestinian Authority have been convicted by a court of law for supporting terrorism and both Kerry and Netanyahu have negotiated with terrorists before.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Terror-391923

This adulation of the worst terrorists and praise for their heroism reflects the policy of the leadership of the Palestinian Authority. This video shows PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, issuing greetings of honour and esteem to mass murderers, whom he publicly names, one by one:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=448