Vatican recognizes state of Palestine in new treaty

[sdanielmcev]

Please someone show me where I 'demonized' Israel. Correcting someone is not 'demonizing.' I argue facts, do not insult, but have a good horse-hockey meter.

[dexterm]

Regardless of Israel apologists and tin foil hat reasons, they recognise Palestine.

Which means pretty much nothing. The Palestinians will remain in purgatory until they stop the terrorism, sign a comprehensive peace treaty and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords.

The PA are not terrorists. Thats pretty obvious...otherwise Kerry and Netanyahu would certainly not have negotiated with their leader Mahmoud Abbas last year.

Actually The Palestinian Authority have been convicted by a court of law for supporting terrorism and both Kerry and Netanyahu have negotiated with terrorists before.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Terror-391923

This adulation of the worst terrorists and praise for their heroism reflects the policy of the leadership of the Palestinian Authority. This video shows PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, issuing greetings of honour and esteem to mass murderers, whom he publicly names, one by one:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=448

From your own link

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Terror-391923

"The case is “just the latest attempt by hard-line anti-peace factions in Israel to use and abuse the US legal system to advance their narrow political and ideological agenda: to block the two-state solution, advance the illegal settlements in our land, and continue to attack and divert the PLO and PA’s limited resources from needed services and programs for our people,” he said.

The decision is a “tragic disservice to the millions of Palestinians who have invested in the democratic process and the rule of law in order to seek justice and redress their grievances, and to the international community which has invested so much in financial aid and political capital in a two-state solution in which the PLO and PA are paramount,” Khalifa said.

The Palestinian official said that the Palestinians will continue to combat extremism and violence and maintain a strong commitment to nonviolent resistance and international, legal political and moral redress."

[Ulysses G.]

It's from my own link alright. It is also the Palestinian deputy Minister of Information trying to lie his way out of being badly defeated in court. What a joke.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

It's from my own link alright. It is also the Palestinian deputy Minister of Information trying to lie his way out of being badly defeated in court. What a joke.

The joke is a kangaroo court in New York City..I wonder why they chose that city? prosecuted by a Zionist backed mischief maker Ms Nitsana Darshan-Leitner who also sued Jimmy Carter for supposedly defrauding customers with his "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid" book. That case was sensibly dropped, as this one will too on appeal. It's a frivolous misuse of the courts.

Otherwise the US courts, who suddenly seem to have taken on the role of the ICC, have left themselves wide open to litigation not just from hundreds of American Palestinians who have suffered injury, murder, and land theft at the hands of Israelis and American Jewish settlers, but to any American who has a complaint against anyone with the slightest affiliation to any foreign government or organisation. The courts will be clogged in the clamor for justice.

There are far more Palestinian victims then Israeli victims.

Edited May 18, 2015 by dexterm

[Linky]

It's from my own link alright. It is also the Palestinian deputy Minister of Information trying to lie his way out of being badly defeated in court. What a joke.

The joke is a kangaroo court in New York City..I wonder why they chose that city? prosecuted by a Zionist backed mischief maker Ms Nitsana Darshan-Leitner who also sued Jimmy Carter for supposedly defrauding customers with his "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid" book. That case was sensibly dropped, as this one will too on appeal. It's a frivolous misuse of the courts.

Otherwise the US courts, who suddenly seem to have taken on the role of the ICC, have left themselves wide open to litigation not just from hundreds of American Palestinians who have suffered injury, murder, and land theft at the hands of Israelis and American Jewish settlers, but to any American who has a complaint against anyone with the slightest affiliation to any foreign government or organisation. The courts will be clogged in the clamor for justice.

There are far more Palestinian victims then Israeli victims.

And since when did a US court become the bastion of all things legal.

Will be nice when can say to apologists that the ICC has foundpeople guilty, on both sides.

But that will not be nice for some.

[Steely Dan]

Perhaps the Vatican thought it was a descriptive: state of anarchy, state of decay, state of palestine...

Indeed, the whole thing is as surreal as Narnia recognizing Never never land. The latter never of course growing up and the former hiding inside a wardrobe.

[arunsakda]

So what do you reckon are the BORDERS of this "State of Palestine" in the angel's head:

abbasnoangel.png

In all of 67 years since it declared independence, has Israel ever confirmed what its borders are?

That is the whole crux of the problem. Israel keeps expanding, swallowing up Palestinian land making a Palestinian state impossible.

Solution. Forget about a Palestinian state. Israel could annex the lot from the Jordan to the Med. Jerusalem would be an undivided city..holy to 3 major world religions. And they would all be equal citizens.

But Israel wants its cake (all the land) and eat it too (ignore the elephant in the room...2.5 million Palestinians under occupation). It's the same problem every colonial power has ever had...what do you do with the the local population you inherit?

The only actual beginning to a solution starts here. The one state solution.

The realization that only one state exists between Jordan and the Med, a state under complete Israeli control where there is no possibility of a viable Palestine with the settlements, which are going NOWHERE. Same land, same aquifers and rivers, and basically the same people. There exists a power structure in Israel that could never countenance an entity with actual sovereign characteristics anyway. It is in actuality the only way forward. A state where all Palestinians enjoy civil equality and citizenship regardless of religion. The idea is supported by minorities in both the Left and Right in Israel, and a considerable portion of the Palestinian intelligentsia. ( I am loathe to ally myself with these hard Right elements, they would gladly annex the West Bank anyway but this is how progress is made, by finding any shred of commonality of interest. ) The question of Gaza with it's large and long suffering, largely hostile population is something else, but if Israel was to grant all in the West Bank citizenship it would have the immediate effect of completely isolating Hamas, which is Israel's' goal anyway. Unfortunately for the idealists on the Israeli left, who still think a state can exist "simultaneously as Jewish and democratic" such a state, a Jewish state with recognized minorities and perhaps binationalism can hardly be called Democracy for the foreseeable future. Many Israel can get around to drafting a Constitution already? Interesting that such a solution was actually pushed by the PLO going back 45 years. The details and stumbling blocks to justice will be great, and much of the security controls which, actually exist already, will have to remain in place, perhaps for a generation or more. Eventually when humanity gets over this religion crap we can forget this silliness.

[Ulysses G.]

And since when did a US court become the bastion of all things legal.

You tried to claim that the Palestinian Authority are not involved in terrorism, but this is proof that they are. Furthermore, the PA are controlled by Fatah, who used to be a terrorist group and who still are cheerleaders for terrorist actions by other groups.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

The only actual beginning to a solution starts here. The one state solution.

The only one state solution that the Palestinians are ever going to get is Jordan. It was formed from land meant to be the Jewish homeland and most of the people are Palestinian Arabs. .

Jordan is Palestine. Palestine is Jordan.This is the royal decree and sentiments of two of the kings of Jordan.

“Palestine and Jordan are one…” said King Abdullah in 1948.

“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,”said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

[Thorgal]

Jordanian Kings, Nasser and many others used a lot of harsh and popular pan-arabic quotes after Israeli invasion. They've shared the same common enemy for decades and they've used common slogans.

Biblical history tells us a lot more about the population in the region before King David.

Jebusites were in nowadays Jerusalem region before Jewish invasion.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

Amorites in nowadays Syria before Jewish invasion.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorites

And so on.

Quote from link :

"God said that Israel was to “clear away” seven “populous nations”—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites—that merited destruction. They were morally degraded and religiously corrupt."

"Sometimes the whole area that God was giving to Israel was called “Canaan,” from north of Sidon to “the torrent valley of Egypt.” (Nu 13:2, 21; 34:2-12; Ge 10:19) At other times the Bible names various nations, city-states, or peoples in that land. Some had distinct locales, such as the Philistines on the coast and the Jebusites in the mountains near Jerusalem. (Nu 13:29; Jos 13:3) Others changed locations or territory over time.—Ge 34:1, 2; 49:30; Jos 1:4; 11:3; Jg 1:16, 23-26."

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102003115#h=5

Conclusion : using modern nations to compare original ancient populations is historically, politically and religiously not correct.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Thorgal

[Linky]

And since when did a US court become the bastion of all things legal.

You tried to claim that the Palestinian Authority are not involved in terrorism, but this is proof that they are. Furthermore, the PA are controlled by Fatah, who used to be a terrorist group and who still are cheerleaders for terrorist actions by other groups.

Please quote where I said the PA are not involved in terrorism.

I know Israel is.which is what this thread is about.

[Ulysses G.]

You'll have to forgive me when I mix you up with dexterm. Your posts and positions are so similar that I feel like I am dealing with the same person.

The PA are not terrorists.

[dexterm]

The only actual beginning to a solution starts here. The one state solution.

The only one state solution that the Palestinians are ever going to get is Jordan. It was formed from land meant to be the Jewish homeland and most of the people are Palestinian Arabs. .

Jordan is Palestine. Palestine is Jordan.This is the royal decree and sentiments of two of the kings of Jordan.

“Palestine and Jordan are one…” said King Abdullah in 1948.

“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,”said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

Palestinians are not going to plan their futures on the basis of the unattributed quotes of 2 long dead autocrats, however much you would like them to.

How about fast forwarding to reality. It's 2015. Palestinians have been living in Palestine for centuries until Zionists ethnically cleansed them twice already in 1948 and 1967 to make room for Jews from Manhattan, Melbourne and Manchester who had never even set eyes on the place before...utterly ridiculous. That is not going to happen a 3rd time.

Or do you envisage the IDF herding 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians at gunpoint out of their homes and into trucks to tent cities on the Jordanian border? And do you honestly believe the world would stand by and allow Israel to do that with complete impunity? That is fantasy.

I think it is time Israel and her apologists confronted their state of denial. Israel must either put up a viable just 2 state solution so that the two peoples can live separately, or shut up and grant Palestinians equal citizenship.

The clock is ticking; the populations and problems are growing.

Edited May 19, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

The only actual beginning to a solution starts here. The one state solution.

The only one state solution that the Palestinians are ever going to get is Jordan. It was formed from land meant to be the Jewish homeland and most of the people are Palestinian Arabs. .

Jordan is Palestine. Palestine is Jordan.This is the royal decree and sentiments of two of the kings of Jordan.

“Palestine and Jordan are one…” said King Abdullah in 1948.

“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,”said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

Palestinians are not going to plan their futures on the basis of the unattributed quotes of 2 long dead autocrats, however much you would like them to.

Something that we can agree on, so there will be NO one state solution. It ain't going to happen.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[arunsakda]

Again in the news today I heard the propaganda trope that the internationally recognized borders of Israel are "indefensible".

In 1949 they defended them from an onslaught of 5 Arab armies. In 1967 they not only defended them but expanded them greatly. Now 47 years later with full spectrum regional dominance, smart weapons only dreamed of in the 60s , total backing of the full force of the US military, and their own stockpiles of WMDs I am supposed to believe this rubbish? This might float with the low information news consumers who watch FOX, but simply cannot be taken seriously by any reasonable person.

I just wish the talking heads would have the intellectual honesty to admit "We are not giving back any of the land we grabbed, we built settlements and will continue, and Uncle Sam can't do anything about it. Sorry 'bout that".

Edited May 20, 2015 by arunsakda

[Ulysses G.]

Again in the news today I heard the propaganda trope that the internationally recognized borders of Israel are "indefensible".

Actually, this is correct. The 1967 borders were 9 miles wide in the middle of the country. At the outset of the Six Days War in 1967, Jordanian artillery shelled Tel Aviv. Israel was so narrow that Jordanian field guns clearly within the Jordanian-occupied territory could hit Tel Aviv. Winning two wars decades ago does not change that fact. Clearly Israel can not go back to such an arrangement and won't.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Again in the news today I heard the propaganda trope that the internationally recognized borders of Israel are "indefensible".

Actually, this is correct. The 1967 borders were 9 miles wide in the middle of the country. At the outset of the Six Days War in 1967, Jordanian artillery shelled Tel Aviv. Israel was so narrow that Jordanian field guns clearly within the Jordanian-occupied territory could hit Tel Aviv. Winning two wars decades ago does not change that fact. Clearly Israel can not go back to such an arrangement and won't.

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen. I agree entirely ... Israel's security concerns are not negotiable and that means the borders will never look exactly like 1967. Compromises can be made of course if the Palestinian side evolves to be reasonable someday.

[arunsakda]

Again in the news today I heard the propaganda trope that the internationally recognized borders of Israel are "indefensible".

Actually, this is correct. The 1967 borders were 9 miles wide in the middle of the country. At the outset of the Six Days War in 1967, Jordanian artillery shelled Tel Aviv. Israel was so narrow that Jordanian field guns clearly within the Jordanian-occupied territory could hit Tel Aviv. Winning two wars decades ago does not change that fact. Clearly Israel can not go back to such an arrangement and won't.

Exactly. Heavy weapons/artillery positions that would be destroyed by IDF Air Force before they even could be set up. (Yawn)

Next?

[Ulysses G.]

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen.

That it is it in a nutshell. Borders that are 9 miles wide in the middle of the country are exactly what the Jew-heters want.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[arunsakda]

Rubbish

[Seastallion]

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen.

That it is it in a nutshell. Borders that are 9 miles wide in the middle of the country are exactly what the Jew-heters want.

Essentially, what you and other Israel-apologists are saying is, "we don't have the land that we want, so with that, we justify our occupying the land that we DO want".

And lets not get into where the water is...which is a major factor in what the Israelis want.

[Ulysses G.]

Looks like the Palestinians should not have started the violence in the first place. When you start wars and LOSE over and over again, it does not gain you a lot of sympathy.

[Jingthing]

Looks like the Palestinians should not have started the violence in the first place. When you start wars and LOSE over and over again, it does not gain you a lot of sympathy.

Well I think they have the sympathy of many. I feel sympathy towards them as well ... but not to the point of not realizing the majority goal of the Palestinian "Free Palestine" movement is actually a Jew free Palestine with Israel gone.

[Thorgal]

Looks like the Palestinians should not have started the violence in the first place. When you start wars and LOSE over and over again, it does not gain you a lot of sympathy.

Well I think they have the sympathy of many. I feel sympathy towards them as well ... but not to the point of not realizing the majority goal of the Palestinian "Free Palestine" movement is actually a Jew free Palestine with Israel gone.

It's all about religion. DNA bloodlines of some Palestinians come close to 'Cohen' Jewish bloodlines.

http://blog.godreports.com/2011/09/many-surprised-by-genetic-and-cultural-links-between-palestinians-and-jews/

Why not seeing the facts like they're and forget the geo-political agenda ?

[Jingthing]

Looks like the Palestinians should not have started the violence in the first place. When you start wars and LOSE over and over again, it does not gain you a lot of sympathy.

Well I think they have the sympathy of many. I feel sympathy towards them as well ... but not to the point of not realizing the majority goal of the Palestinian "Free Palestine" movement is actually a Jew free Palestine with Israel gone.

It's all about religion. DNA bloodlines of some Palestinians come close to 'Cohen' Jewish bloodlines.

http://blog.godreports.com/2011/09/many-surprised-by-genetic-and-cultural-links-between-palestinians-and-jews/

Why not seeing the facts like they're and forget the geo-political agenda ?

What a weird incoherent post, the last line specifically.

There it is again as well, the strange obsession with "blood lines" ...

Anyway it is not news that there are genetic connections of Jewish people (Ashkenazim and Mizrahim) to Palestinian Arabs, and also Italians and some others ethnic group categories as well.

Being a Jewish person or a Palestinian Arab person (Muslim or Christian) is not only about religion in the sense of religious BELIEF; it's about IDENTITY.

If you're an Israeli Jew and Hamas wants you gone out Israel, dead or alive ... what difference does it make if there are genetic connections between Jewish people and Palestinian Arab people? Answer: NONE AT ALL.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

Looks like the Palestinians should not have started the violence in the first place. When you start wars and LOSE over and over again, it does not gain you a lot of sympathy.

Well I think they have the sympathy of many. I feel sympathy towards them as well ... but not to the point of not realizing the majority goal of the Palestinian "Free Palestine" movement is actually a Jew free Palestine with Israel gone.

It's all about religion. DNA bloodlines of some Palestinians come close to 'Cohen' Jewish bloodlines.

http://blog.godreports.com/2011/09/many-surprised-by-genetic-and-cultural-links-between-palestinians-and-jews/

Why not seeing the facts like they're and forget the geo-political agenda ?

What a weird incoherent post, the last line specifically.

There it is again as well, the strange obsession with "blood lines" ...

Anyway it is not news that there are genetic connections of Jewish people (Ashkenazim and Mizrahim) to Palestinian Arabs, and also Italians and some others ethnic group categories as well.

Being a Jewish person or a Palestinian Arab person (Muslim or Christian) is not only about religion in the sense of religious BELIEF; it's about IDENTITY.

If you're an Israeli Jew and Hamas wants you gone out Israel, dead or alive ... what difference does it make if there are genetic connections between Jewish people and Palestinian Arab people? Answer: NONE AT ALL.

Religion is not the call from Hamas. It's about the historical and ethnical recognition of the situation in the Middle East. Israel and/or Palestine region share the heritage of the historical separation of the Eastern and Western world.

DNA doesn't lie...whatever Netanyahu or Abas political-emotional program pretends...

The question is : how can modern nations share a rich and complicated history together without repeating historical events...

Is it based on psychology, history, philosophy, political, ethnicity, comprehension, or a unique mixture of them, who knows...

You've just blamed one side who carries both...history and privilege...

Edited May 20, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

Sorry. That was even more incoherent.

I'm not going to even ask for clarification. That would be like asking for clarification of a blob of jello someone threw against a wall.

We're not having a discussion here ... it's more like something from the Twilight Zone.

Anyways, perhaps back to the topic?

Edited May 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Neurath]

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen.

That it is it in a nutshell. Borders that are 9 miles wide in the middle of the country are exactly what the Jew-heters want.

How wide would they have to be feel safe? There is always someone on the other side of a land border. They could be 1000km wide and it would change nothing. There's always a little further go in that hope that that will make things safe. And a little further. And a little further. Until you're all the way to Stalingrad. Good luck with that.

[Jingthing]

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen.

That it is it in a nutshell. Borders that are 9 miles wide in the middle of the country are exactly what the Jew-heters want.

How wide would they have to be feel safe? There is always someone on the other side of a land border. They could be 1000km wide and it would change nothing. There's always a little further go in that hope that that will make things safe. And a little further. And a little further. Until you're all the way to Stalingrad. Good luck with that.

That's absurd. Israel really is tiny when considering it is a Jewish island in a largely hostile Muslim sea. Nobody is talking about 1000 km wide and you know it.

[Neurath]

But surely those who would love to see Israel crushed would be happy to see that happen.

That it is it in a nutshell. Borders that are 9 miles wide in the middle of the country are exactly what the Jew-heters want.

How wide would they have to be feel safe? There is always someone on the other side of a land border. They could be 1000km wide and it would change nothing. There's always a little further go in that hope that that will make things safe. And a little further. And a little further. Until you're all the way to Stalingrad. Good luck with that.

That's absurd. Israel really is tiny when considering it is a Jewish island in a largely hostile Muslim sea. Nobody is talking about 1000 km wide and you know it.

If I said "they could be 2,000km and wide and it would change nothing" - do you think that implies that someone was suggesting that they be that wide? No, it doesn't. And you know it.

Since the width of the country has been brought up as a security concern (not by me) - then just how wide does the border need to be? I understand that it can't be 9km - that's not safe. So how wide would it need to be meet security concerns? Far enough away so that an intermediate range rocket couldn't reach the country?