Immigration Confirms The End Of Border Runs From Oct 1, 2006

[dsfbrit]

Good one immigration, you have just screwed Thailand out of a serious amount of money.

Idiots.

... guess, they've figured there isn't much money in 30-day-visa-runners ... wonder why it took them so long ...

Sure, these people don't eat and don't sleep....

- Travellers get a 30 day on arrival or a real visa either back home or at their first exit, they are good for at least a year - OK

Good for a year? on what visa?

Although this new change doesn't apply to me, I'm sure other members here would love to know what visa you get to stay as tourist for a year..

I think people here are very quick to dismiss the amount of income that long term tourists bring to Thailand. This is indeed a bad move on the part of the Thai government, those who think otherwise seem to think working in Thailand makes you some sort of higher class... Don't write off the long term tourist visa farang just becasue they don't have to work for 30k a month teaching English.

Time will tell exactly what happens, my prediction is that this will casue a ripple effect... no more long term tourists, higher price condos will lose tenants, Thais will default on loans, etc etc Not to mention the diving instructors down south who can't even seem to get non-immigrant visas, with 90% of the dive industry based around farang instructors.. that industry will now be almost history.

Those of you who think this is a good move, I challenge you to think beyond the scope of your own existance, just because you are over 50, married, etc etc, does not mean everybody else is.

If the "farang divers" guys are so important to the industry why don`t your employers provide you with work permits. Or alternatively, If you have your own company you should be safe already. It`s black and white.

It`s the same with teachers who are working in Thailand without work permits. You know and I know you are working illegally. And as far as I am concerned good luck to you because I am probably working illegally on my rubber farm. The thing is, many people have been able to work illegally for many years now. And probably will still be able to work illegally in the future. It`s still a bit early to say how things will pan out in the long run because as we all know the immigration guys can and do use a lot of discression. And going on a visa run can be different from the previous run.

I.e., some people get visa A, some don`t. Some people get visa B, some don`t.

But at the end of the day you cannot knock them for trying to stop illegal immigrants from working or people on tourist visas from working also. It`s their law and we have to abide by it.

Most people who come here are probably eligible for a 6 month tourist visa at least. I would imagine that when it`s finished you could then go do a visa run get another 3 x 30 days giving you 9 months in total. There are not many countries in the world that allow you to stay as a tourist for that length of time.

We`ve been lucky so far. It was only a matter of time before it all went tits up as far as the 30 day visas were concerned.

Although I am fortunate to live here as a retired farang and this debate therefore does not directly impact me, I have some sympathy for the people this will catch.

When laws are not enforced for a considerable length of time - in this case many years - they tend to become 'normal practice'. Sure the Thais are entitled to enforce their laws, to say otherwise would be silly, but this is the second major law that is being enforced this year - I am referring to the enforcement of the farang land ownership law.

In my case I think I am fairly safe as I have all bases covered - enough money to live here etc...

However, tell me this - just what other laws are there out there at the moment that are NOT BEING ENFORCED - if I get some illness for example - is there a law that is not being enforced that says I must leave the country - ok that is a poor example, but seriously what other laws are out there that are not being enforced at the moment that will be ENFORCED NEXT?

I love it here in Thailand and will obey their laws as best I can, but I am certainly feeling less comfortable about the Thailand experience than I did before reading this topic!

[XTREME]

Looks like an investment visa is no longer an option. Sunbelt Asia just posted on the visa forum with news that investment visa will no longer be given or renewed.

[k1w1]

> 1) Set up a Thai company that bills/invoices the relevant Western agencies you perform work

> for.

> 2) Set up an Offshore company that you 'represent' in Thailand.

> Why is this so difficult for everyone!

Because many of us are not interested in tying up more resources in Govt schemes and are looking for ways to get by on less so we can spend our money on getting more out of life rather than doing the daily grind. If we want that we would stay in our home countries.

[manjara]

I cant believe you will have any problem..(but we will have to wait until after Oct 1 to see how this is actually implemented)....

I personally believe that if the rules are implemented as described, it would mean limits on aggregate stays in Thailand (for example, you can only stay in Thailand for an aggregate of 90 days during any 180 day period, if you are entering Thailand on "visa exemption" priviledges given to Americans, Japanese etc.)....

if this were not the case, then a genuine tourist/visitor coming to Thailand (on "visa exemption" basis) for only an aggregate of 7 days during a given period (but making three short side-trips to, say, Cambodia, Laos and finally Singapore) would be barred from again re-entering Thailand (on a "visa exemption" basis) until another 90 days have elapsed...

you seem about 8 times smarter than the average person who posts in thai internet forums. congratulations.

That all sounds very logical, but are they expecting airlines to check departing passengers according to those rules? If I arrive in Thailand without a visa and stayed for more than 90 days in the last 180, what are they going to do? Refuse me entry? Get the airline to take me back home? Charge me large amounts to get a short term visa? I suspect the latter...

[Jai Dee]

Looks like an investment visa is no longer an option. Sunbelt Asia just posted on the visa forum with news that investment visa will no longer be given or renewed.

See this topic.

[andyc2006]

Looks like an investment visa is no longer an option. Sunbelt Asia just posted on the visa forum with news that investment visa will no longer be given or renewed.

wow!!!

i haven't seen the post or the news release of that yet, but if true, that's rather shocking.

somebody posted this earlier, but now it's obviously true. the message is: "farang, go home!"

actually, somebody posted this earlier too, but it's seeming more likely: elections are coming up, thai people (for the most part) hate foreigners, and this is just temporary populist politics.

glad i'm a real tourist, and just a tourist!

[A_Traveller]

... and airline check in staff (who must decide if you can get on the plane) also could not do this.

really? says what authority?

i realize that airlines often DO check to make sure a person can legally enter the destination country, but it's within their rights to accept the passenger's money, deliver them to the immigration checkpoint, and allow them to try to enter.

if the person can't enter, he's still responsible for getting himself home. usually that involves changing the date on his return ticket, but sometimes it involves him staying at an airport or being incarcerated until he arranges transportation.

the fact is, airlines that already try to enforce immigration rules make quite a few mistakes... just last january, a chinese friend of mine residing in the states (visa from china, green card from usa) tried to fly from USA to China to Thailand. the airline in china wouldn't let her board the plane to thailand, because they incorrectly thought she wasn't permitted to go there. well, they took it upon themselves to enforce an immigration rule, and ######ed it up. imagine if all airlines were forced to enforce immigrations rules....!

i can tell you that departing the US, they only make sure you have a passport. they don't care if you're denied entry once they drop you off at the destination. that's your problem. i have had friends denied entry (one just flew from Washington DC to Vancouver, Canada!) to countries after taking a plane to an immigration point, and the airline didn't give them a free ride home.

they're not obligated to worry about the immigration laws of all the countries they fly to.

Incorrect. The legal position is that the airline can be held fiscally responsible. The law here, and in other countries, explicity provides for this. Though in many cases the country does not make it an issue, they can, and so, if an airline deems a destination such a risk, then they will be cautious. As you rightly say they can make errors, but in many cases the terms and conditions of travel permit them to do make such a judgement call, without comeback from the passenger.

Again if rules are unclear or the check-in team is unsure, they have the right to refuse you travel, until you can assure them that you are able to complete your journey. This has always been the case.

Regards

[LivinLOS]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=82914

And now lets hear the cheers from the smug oldies who seem to love to gloat at anyone elses miss fortune..

So for all those people who made large financial commitments to purchase condos but gov bonds etc.. Once again SOL..

When a governement introduces a scheme like this that costs people 1000's do they have no moral (of course not legal) obligation to continue it for at least a short peroid and grandfather in those that followed thier intructions..

Once again.. Go home farang and thanks for the money..

Gets worse by the minute.

[CymruAmByth]

> 1) Set up a Thai company that bills/invoices the relevant Western agencies you perform work

> for.

> 2) Set up an Offshore company that you 'represent' in Thailand.

> Why is this so difficult for everyone!

Because many of us are not interested in tying up more resources in Govt schemes and are looking for ways to get by on less so we can spend our money on getting more out of life rather than doing the daily grind. If we want that we would stay in our home countries.

No...I suggest it that many of you are not interested in doing things properly and then moaning about it when the rules change.

Why should Thailand allow you to stay if you dont play by THEIR rules?

Jeez

[Tod Daniels]

I SEE THE FRENZY CONTINUES TODAY AS WELL

The Bangkok Post and the Forbes articles misquoted the term VOA for US/UK/EU nationalities. A visa is NOT required for citizens from those countries enterting the Kingdom . On arrival you are issued a 30 day permission to stay stamp, which is being called a VOA. Seeing as there is no visa stamped into your passport it's not that at all, it's more a "Permitted To Stay Until" stamp. US/UK/EU are VISA EXEMPT entry countries.

Tourist Visa's, either 30 or 60 day stays, can be had easily in any Asian country bordering Thailand, even w/multiple re-entrys (albeit they are not free, nor is the multiple re-entry). I even believe at Don Muang there is a counter where you can fill out a Tourist Visa application before getting into the line at immigrations, although I could be wrong.

Those same valid Tourist Visas (30 or 60 day) can be extended at Thai Immigrations twice, first for 30 days, then again for an additional 15 days (granted at a cost of 1900B per extension). In theory that would give someone on a 60 Day Tourist Visa a total stay in the Kingdom of 105 days before they'd have to even leave the Kingdom. No border run, no nothing. Once the 105 days have expired you then would have to leave the Kingdom, apply for another Tourist Visa, and do the procedure again.

There has been no mention of curtailing or limiting the number of VALID Tourist Visas in a person's passport, so you should still be able to get them as easily as you can now, and have pages of them in your passport.

The "loophole" on the countries who are visa exempt and issued 30 day "Permitted To Stay" stamps has had the law in place for a while to curtail chronic offenders the endless entries, but not been inforced.

If people switched to VALID 30 or 60 Day Tourist Visas, (again; not to be confused w/Visa Exempt "Permitted to Stay" stamps) I think it would be a work around to the coming changes.

Again, while the new enforcement doesn't affect me I am sympathetic to the many people who's lives are affected.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

If anyone can offer a valid explanation why what I outlined concerning Tourist Visas won't work, please let me know, as I perused the articles closely. I saw nothing mentioned about any other type of Visa aside from the misquoted VOA. (which as I've said are Visa Exempt 30 day "Permitted to Stay" stamps for most "First Worlders").

take care,

tod in Krung Thep

[LivinLOS]

[q

I am aware of the options.. But bendix wants to make it all sound so easy so I tought I would let him explain..

Investment visa's.. Many reasons why not (gov bonds seem hard to buy, the banks have no capital protection, condo values being poor, high risk environment all round).. Also people may, even if they can afford it, have thier investments strutured so as not to have access to a spare 75k USD..

Try for a one year non imm O.. I though this was all about not bending the rules and following the letter AND THE SPIRIT of the law.. Pot / kettle / black !!!

Tourist visa's.. again is this the spirit of the law.. I see no difference between this and using visa on arrivals if they continue to give them.. If they do clampdown on them again the options are extreemely limited.. Also a tourist visa makes leaving the country for short trips a big problem as 'entries' are watsed each time.. BIG pain in the ass.

Air ticket somewhere else.. Always have my eyes open.

So essentially what your saying is unless you are happy to commit 75k USD to a pretty risky investment you have no legal options following the letter and spirit of the law.. And that seems acceptable ?? That seems smart and well thought out.. To tell residents that employ people, spend a lot (1.5 - 2 mil baht per year) and are no drain on Thai resources whatsoever. That seems good for Thailand PLC ??

Personally I couldnt give a hoot about the spirit of the law and am sure I will be able to stay here without problems.. Had non immigrant visas for the last 3 years even though I technically dont deserve one..

Do I think it's acceptable? Yes, I do.

You're lucky to be retired at 33. Well done. You want to live here - good choice. But you're not prepared to accept the relatively easy option they have tailor-made for you to do so because of some concerns about risks / returns?

Well, hello! That's your choice too, but you can't really complain if your host government makes it a little tough for you, can you?

Would you prefer it if they made a rule specially for your situation?

Again . . . . it is VERY VERY easy to stay here if you follow the rules. You seem exactly the sort of person Thailand is welcoming (successful, bright etc) and has 2-3 visa categories tailormade for you.

Frankly, I'm struggling to think of another country that has such a welcoming immigration regime for the types of people it wants to attract.

Personally I dont trust the Thai system at all.. I wont put myself at risk or bring money into Thailand that I cant happily walk away from.

Now the special investor visa that I have been leary of appears to have been recinded..

If I had last year bought a condo for many millions of baht on the assurances of the Thais who said I could then live indefinately I would now be being asked to leave.. Leaving my condo behind.

Thats still sounds fair and fine to you does it ???

Raplidly becoming ubsurd.

[LivinLOS]

> 1) Set up a Thai company that bills/invoices the relevant Western agencies you perform work

> for.

> 2) Set up an Offshore company that you 'represent' in Thailand.

> Why is this so difficult for everyone!

Because many of us are not interested in tying up more resources in Govt schemes and are looking for ways to get by on less so we can spend our money on getting more out of life rather than doing the daily grind. If we want that we would stay in our home countries.

No...I suggest it that many of you are not interested in doing things properly and then moaning about it when the rules change.

Why should Thailand allow you to stay if you dont play by THEIR rules?

Jeez

Because thier rules change every five minutes, becuase they are not applied equally, becuase they are not reliable and because there is no recourse for us when they ignore thier rules.

So all in all thier 'rules' can become a bit of a joke..

[VanZam]

Looks like an investment visa is no longer an option. Sunbelt Asia just posted on the visa forum with news that investment visa will no longer be given or renewed.

See this topic.

Oh crap.. this problem just got a lot bigger.

So they dont want investors money now.. stating to look like Thailand is gearing up for a dictatorship move which is ###### scary.

Enforcing property laws, restircting visas, lowering interest for investments... One can only guess where this is going...

[k1w1]

No...I suggest it that many of you are not interested in doing things properly and then moaning about it when the rules change.

Why should Thailand allow you to stay if you dont play by THEIR rules?

Jeez

Some people are moaning but most are just getting stressed about having to completely reorganise the next two or three months of their lives with three weeks notice.

Thailand is a lifestyle destination. The rules here are pretty bizarely enforced at the best of times. What incentive do we have to follow them when they are so poorly enforced.

Isn't it a law that people are supposed to wear helmets on a motorbike. I have yet to meet a motorbike taxi that has a spare helmet in central BKK. Wouldn't it make sense to enforce laws like that too?

This initiative is purely political. Most Farang dissapprove of The current management of the country and TRT obviously don't want to make it easy for Farangs to live long term in Thailand unless they buy into the system.

[Soju]

Looks like an investment visa is no longer an option. Sunbelt Asia just posted on the visa forum with news that investment visa will no longer be given or renewed.

Well, I guess you can kiss the condo boom goodbye. Imagine they'll be some excellent deals down the road for those with money as many farangs will need to quickly sell a condo that nobody wants to buy.

[bendix]

Sounds like they're opening the new airport just in time.

Perhaps the visa run bus companies could reorganise themselves and target the fleeing farang market?

Every problem brings a new opportunity . . .

[snakestick]

Pretty amusing really that the high and mighty posters looking down on the unfortunates throughout the 1st 40 pages of this thread screamed about getting a proper visa. To this the sorry folks retired and under 50 said "what visa?". The know it alls said "get the 3 mil baht investor visa of course". By page 43 that option was wiped out. It's a good thing that not too many folks have gotten that investor visa that eye no of.

[joka]

This might simply be a shakedown by the Immigration Department. I went to Immigration yesterday and the lady told me i could just give her 1900Baht and she would stamp the passport every month for me!

[VanZam]

A more scary thought is that there will be more restrictions on other visa types... seems that everytime I go away from my computer I come back to find another X thousand of people have been screwed.

[sjaak327]

You have to hand it to Thai Immigration, they announce this new law (or the enforcement of an old law) just in time for the new airport opening.

Again, the more I think of it, the more unlikely it becomes that they are actually going to enforce this 90 days on and off policy.

Again as stated, the airlines will scream, and if enough people are turned away at the airport, might even require everyone to carry valid tourist visa to be allowed to board, making the Visa exempt system non existing at the airport at least.

[snakestick]

It's really a shame too for all those folks who did buy new 3 mil baht and up condos to get visas and now they will have to try and sell. I bet they won't get half their cash back. For shame. Eye always had a 6th sense about buying real estate and in general investing cash here and have stayed away from doing so. Boy oh boy eye'm glad I did and never will now I can assure. My cash and investments are kept safely in my home country and there they shall remain. Maybe asset confiscation is coming down the road. who knows?

[BKK90210]

Unbelievable!!..... non-b is now also out!

Are we all now in a reality show “The survivor Thailand”?

Please tune in tomorrow to see….who will be eliminated next!

[keda]

Look any new law or rule will have to be implemented.

The rules as they are described have no way of being implemented at airline check in desks around the world.. As such the chance of the rules being implemented as described are slim to none.

The process of checking entire passports for all entries and tallying to check 90 days incountry etc is just not feasable...

I'm sure today's computers are able to count how many days a person has stayed in the country over the past 90 or any other number of days, and also if he may be issued with a 30-day tourist visa, without an immigration officer needing to scrutinise every passport.

keda

[XTREME]

Whats next? Doubling of the amount needed for retirement visa. Increasing age to 55. Confiscation of farang owned businesses. This certainly doesnt look good for the economy. I imagine no foreigner is going to want to make any kind of investment in Thailand.

[snakestick]

Look any new law or rule will have to be implemented.

The rules as they are described have no way of being implemented at airline check in desks around the world.. As such the chance of the rules being implemented as described are slim to none.

The process of checking entire passports for all entries and tallying to check 90 days incountry etc is just not feasable...

I'm sure today's computers are able to count how many days a person has stayed in the country over the past 90 or any other number of days, and also if he may be issued with a 30-day tourist visa, without an immigration officer needing to scrutinise every passport.

keda

You're right, they will pull the info right from the computer screen. I'll tell you this too, they won't be counting days as somebuddy suggested, but rather they will look for the 3 entries within 90 days

[keda]

I'm not very impressed with a lot of things in Thailand so far.

5555...wait till your post count hits triple digits!

[LoveDaBlues]

Unbelievable!!..... non-b is now also out!

Are we all now in a reality show “The survivor Thailand”?

Please tune in tomorrow to see….who will be eliminated next!

Exactly. I've always said NEVER own here just rent. Well........a great deal came along that the 'business man' inside me just couldn't pass up. So I bought a piece of land.....and just finished having fill dirt put in......plans to build in January. Now????

[Soju]

A more scary thought is that there will be more restrictions on other visa types... seems that everytime I go away from my computer I come back to find another X thousand of people have been screwed.

Yes, now people with other visas will begin to question how long they're safe. Retirement visa holders, marriage visa holders, etc. People looking to move to Thailand will likely give other options a more serious consideration. Upon reading this news, I know if I was considering retiring to Thailand I'd definitely hold off if not cancel my plan until I could be assured that I wouldn't be asked to leave after a year. Yesterday, I would have advised anyone not to panic and wait and see what happens, but this latest news, even though it has no direct effect on me, is extremely unnerving that they would pull the rug out from people who are in the country legitimately.

[keda]

...You are missing the point here. Of course at the border they should have such a system, where by entering a persons details, a flag would go off if number of entries are more then 3 in a 90 day period. But the point is boarding the plane. Remember airlines could be forced to transport a refused person back to point of origin. So what will happen, will someone without valid toursit visa be allowed to board, are the check in staff going to do a manual search of the passport to find out the number of entries in a certain amount of time.

Someone earlier stated that this was a conspiracy for airlines to make more money, but I see this as a big headache for the airlines.

Sounds like the makings of yet another tea money earner.

keda

[snakestick]

It seems to me that these undesireables they want out of the country are all foreigners