Thai university students score 7/100 for English test

[crickets]

How many of u cared about learning s second language at school? You are almost fluent in another language that none of your friends speak right?

[lovinglife]

The language of ASEAN will be English, sounds like Thailand will be like the French in the EU, demanding that everything is spoken in their own language as well as English.

[scorecard]

For university in the relevant fields of course English is needed but its not equally needed everywhere. What I suggest is to teach it good to those who need it (concentrate the resources there). Don't teach it to those who don't want it and probably don't need it. Its real frustrating learning something you don't need.

The only time I ever failed a subject was because it had no relevance and I just could not bring myself to study the subject as it was bone dry and had no relevance to my future job. Motivation is quite important when studying.

Perhaps it would be better for those who make comments to be able to speak "the Queen's English" themselves.

This comment should read :- What I suggest is to teach it well ( not "good" ) to those............ It's really ( not "Its real" ) frustrating.........

Well here's another view. English is probably the main world language (yes I know that more people speak Spanish and of course vast numbers speak a Chinese language.

Learning English (or other languages) doesn't need to be hard work.

In some countries where English is not the mother tongue parents (who have learned English the same way) give a lot of attention at home to their kids, from quite small, learning a lot of English vocabulary both nouns and verbs, and more.

When they start school they start small sentences in English (with a lot of fun in the process) and by Primary 3 they have advanced English skills in all 4 functions. In many of these countries the majority of schools use English as the lesson language for all primary and secondary lessons.

It can be done and it can be painless.

_________________________________________________

Yes, Thai students from government and a surprising number of bi-lingual schools are last and bored.

Well I would be bored too if I had to sit and listen to a bored teacher all day and not even understanding a lot of the monotone 'lecture' from the bored teacher and not allowed to ask questions. Plus no attempt to get the kids to think or to analyze.

In fact this formulates an overall strong picture in the students mind 'school is boring, when can I go home'.

There's a good chance the same attitude carries through to learning anything, except the one or two very specific things every human being really likes and they are probably not academic subjects.

Edited May 21, 2015 by scorecard

[LuckyLew]

A Thai university graduate can do three things -

Speak Thai language

Write Thai language

Read Thai language

Some, not all

[krdowney]

There are many problems. Poorly trained Thai nationals teaching English grammar and pronunciation is one. Native English teachers are not allowed to talk about grammar in the government schools at all; they will be run out of the school. Lack of effective study skills among students is another. No training in pedagogy--most Thai teachers have students simply memorize lists. But the lack of incentives for Thai students to perform is a major problem. The AEC won't change Thailand, the Kingdom will just ignore it. The underlying issue here is that development in general is discouraged because it may promote political instability. The leaders here would rather be able to claim all of a very small pie than a percentage of a much larger pie--growth is seen as a zero sum game. And the workers who would drive growth will never benefit from their efforts. It's not in anybody's short-term interests to improve anything here. As Thailand falls further behind the rest of the region and the globe, it will simply shut out the world and use propaganda to convince it's population it is superior to everyone else. Thailand is destined to become the next Ne Win's Burma. With a little bad luck, it could rival Kim Jong Il's North Korea. But no one cares. We are watching a self-destructive society in free-fall towards a failed state.

I have taught in rural government schools, Bangkok-based demonstration schools, and elite university programs (not English) and there is actually a very wide divergence. We cannot lump everyone together (even though I just did above). The upper middle class feel that they might have a measure of control. So my demonstration school students did much better than my Isan students. My university students range from being unable to compose a one page essay to students who have no problem writing a 20-page fully footnoted term paper. I am very proud of most of my university students. But their motivation comes from having lived abroad in high-school and university exchange programs. Few of the strong students see themselves as having much of a future if they stay in Thailand. They all saw Titanic, they know the boat is going down.

Edited May 21, 2015 by krdowney

[Artisi]

A Thai university graduate can do three things -

Speak Thai language

Write Thai language

Read Thai language

Sometimes not all that well.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

Edited May 21, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[dragonfly94]

So how do Thai students go overseas for post-secondary education get in the door of a USA College/University, and yet graduate!

That will be a tiny percentage, and almost none from the government School system which is not about education but indoctrination + reading and writing Thai. You are commenting on the rich elite from good private Schools.

Edited May 21, 2015 by dragonfly94

[Usual Suspect]

My daughter has just finished high school, & indeed I helped her with her homework..Or should I say I needed to help her, IMO the questions were always way to hard for her, & her text books were for pupils 2-3 grades higher.

It was quite clear that the teachers who set the questions seemed to be hell bent on seeing pupils fail their English, or this was the Thai system's way of weeding-out the struggling ones...Not a good way, but it seems this is how it is here.

Then we wonder why kids here do not want to learn to speak English..simple..it's made to bloody hard for them!...Rant over.

[gravity101]

Chris, your English is pretty weak in that fb post. Maybe you need to clean up your own English skills before criticising others. Where is this guy from again?

[trogers]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

These subjects are taught mainly in countries with a colonial past. The others spend more study time looking inwardly, Japan is one example.

[krdowney]

So how do Thai students go overseas for post-secondary education get in the door of a USA College/University, and yet graduate!

That will be a tiny percentage, and almost none from the government School system which is not about education but indoctrination + reading and writing Thai. You are commenting on the rich elite from good private Schools.

It's primarily a status issue too. If you are high enough on the social ladder, many doors open up (but this group has a great overlap with the good private school students). There is also a sizable amount of bribe-taking among "elite" privately funded American universities that are struggling financially--like many Ivy League Schools excluding Harvard, Yale, Columbia and U Penn who are solvent. Foreign students are seen as a revenue stream, and they are accepted and allowed to graduate regardless of their performance so long as their family will make a voluntary $500,000 donation to a building fund or to an endowment for scholarships (for talented students). This happens across the US. Rich people send their kids to the US or Europe for undergrad. Upper middle class families send their kids to Chula, TU and Mahidol. Lower middle class end up at the Rajabhat Universities...and then there is Surin Tech.

It's not all bad though. A number of my students have been able to get accepted to good western schools for MA programs or as undergraduate transfers. They are the smart ones, and I'm really proud of what they have accomplished.

Edited May 21, 2015 by krdowney

[brewsterbudgen]

So how do Thai students go overseas for post-secondary education get in the door of a USA College/University, and yet graduate!

That will be a tiny percentage, and almost none from the government School system which is not about education but indoctrination + reading and writing Thai. You are commenting on the rich elite from good private Schools.

It's primarily a status issue too. If you are high enough on the social ladder, many doors open up (but this group has a great overlap with the good private school students). There is also a sizable amount of bribe-taking among "elite" privately funded American universities that are struggling financially--like many Ivy League Schools excluding Harvard, Yale, Columbia and U Penn who are solvent. Foreign students are seen as a revenue stream, and they are accepted and allowed to graduate regardless of their performance so long as their family will make a voluntary $500,000 donation to a building fund or to an endowment for scholarships (for talented students). This happens across the US. Rich people send their kids to the US or Europe for undergrad. Upper middle class families send their kids to Chula, TU and Mahidol. Lower middle class end up at the Rajabhat Universities...and then there is Surin Tech.

It's not all bad though. A number of my students have been able to get accepted to good western schools for MA programs or as undergraduate transfers. They are the smart ones, and I'm really proud of what they have accomplished.

I work with IELTS and every week around 600 students take IELTS in Thailand, in order to be accepted on an overseas degree course, mostly in the UK and Australia, but also in the US, Canada and some European countries. Of course, they don't all pass!

[krdowney]

Brewster, I have a bunch of students coming to me for help on those self-same IELTS. Kids are panic-stricken. =D Many know more than they think though.

[brewsterbudgen]

Brewster, I have a bunch of students coming to me for help on those self-same IELTS. Kids are panic-stricken. =D Many know more than they think though.

Good luck! If they need band 6 or more it's not easy. Some native speakers would struggle to get band 9!

[rodknock]

post #7, you forgot cell phone!!

[Baerboxer]

students cant fail a degree, is this correct? whats the point of having one then? it would mean nothing apart from student managed to pay for course for four years

No it's not correct.

When my wife completed her Masters Degree half the class failed the mandatory English module. They were allowed to continue the course but warned they would not be allowed to graduate until they had passed that module in a re-take a couple of months later.

At the retake have of those examined failed again. There were told they would have to wait 12 months and re-sit the exam with the new course students. Failure a third time would mean failing the course.

I looked at the module content, the assignments, and they were of similar standard to UK universities at Masters level. My wife passed first time and I saw the effort that went into passing.

On another PhD course I know, there are tests before acceptance, written and interviews by a panel of academics. About 60% pass the written test and go to interview. About 40% of those are offered places. Copies of all written tests, interview notes and selection decisions are sent to the MoE. All candidates must sit a formal exam of each subject studied and present progress on their research at the end of year 2 before being allowed to proceed. Copies are sent to MoE. I know several people who failed elements. Some successfully passed re-takes, others left the program.

Take with a large grain of salt those on here who just love to bash Thais, Thailand and tar all schools, universities and teachers the same. It's their imagination not reality.

[ThaiUser]

This time I can fully subscribe to the article because it puts the finger exactly onto the open wound. Still it neglects another problem most schools are facing and that is the class size. Most schools I have come across have thirty to forty students in a class and depending on the school one English teacher has to cater for over 200 students during the week. It adds up to two or three minutes a teacher can concentrate on an individual student in that week. In most cases some of that time has to be allocated to fill in statistics that are requested by provincial, regional and the national education offices. I am just trying to set up a school partnership with an Australian primary school and the red tape involved looks that we might fail to achieve that in the time scale we have set. The school in Australia is willing to sign up with us but we first have to get permission from our masters that like to be involved in that process and so we have to follow the road they have decided on.

In regard to the quality of teachers I don’t concur with some of the comments that stipulate all Thai teachers are not qualified to teach English. During the recent school holidays we had two English camps and one of the teachers was a first year teacher and her English was excellent. When I spoke to her for the first time on the phone before meeting her I assumed she was European. Meeting her we discussed the problem of teachers that seem not have a grasp of the English language and she told me that many of her friends from university equal to her in the command of the English language had decided not to teach English but to look for more lucrative jobs in business, mainly foreign companies that have branches in Thailand and looking for people that are fluent in English and Thai. They offer more money, better working conditions, pension options, health insurance and most of all a chance to work abroad in other offices of these companies. In that respect I don’t blame them to accept that opportunity instead of ending up in a village school that can’t offer these benefits.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

These subjects are taught mainly in countries with a colonial past. The others spend more study time looking inwardly, Japan is one example.

What we're talking about are some the elements of a traditional liberal arts/western higher education. So I guess you'd have to include the U.S. (and most of the rest of the world) as having a "colonial" past.

A liberal arts-based education is what I went thru in the U.S. In retrospect, a lot of what I studied I've never ended up using or needing to use in the real world.

But, I did learn how to learn and how to think for myself. And probably equally importantly, getting exposed to a lot of different academic subjects, in the end, helped me understand what I was good at, and not good at, in terms of deciding on my ultimate career as a professional.

If I hadn't had that broad exposure, I'm not sure how I ever would have found my way to my true calling as a career. Not to mention, also having some sense of other nations and cultures beyond my own. But then, that issue doesn't really rank highly on the Thai agenda of things.

[cardinalblue]

Jerojero,

You raise an interesting point. One would have to look at the numbers of Thai students (not international students - most who are not Thai) who go on to accredited western universities from Thai private or public schools. How many would this be? My guess is practically zero as they would have to take the SAT which represents an accumulation of 12 years of English education. In fairness,their education would not have been geared toward this type of knowledge testing in English which it isn't any fault of theirs...

The best parameter would be see how many Thais and half Thais via the international school are able to get into american colleges as well as the quality/ranking of these colleges - many are non-accredited private schools who want the money from their rich parents. Probably beneficial to break out the half Thais from the Thais as it has become evident to me due to family language influence even at an early age, half -Thais are superior in English to their full Thai peers especially in bi-lingual or Thai only schools (where they have only an English language class as part of their curriculum).

The newest thing in the last five - seven years is EP programs popping up in private Thai schools so this would be interesting to track and follow on how well or how poorly these programs place Thai students abroad (which might or might not be their intention?)....

Edited May 21, 2015 by cardinalblue

[scorecard]

There are many problems. Poorly trained Thai nationals teaching English grammar and pronunciation is one. Native English teachers are not allowed to talk about grammar in the government schools at all; they will be run out of the school. Lack of effective study skills among students is another. No training in pedagogy--most Thai teachers have students simply memorize lists. But the lack of incentives for Thai students to perform is a major problem. The AEC won't change Thailand, the Kingdom will just ignore it. The underlying issue here is that development in general is discouraged because it may promote political instability. The leaders here would rather be able to claim all of a very small pie than a percentage of a much larger pie--growth is seen as a zero sum game. And the workers who would drive growth will never benefit from their efforts. It's not in anybody's short-term interests to improve anything here. As Thailand falls further behind the rest of the region and the globe, it will simply shut out the world and use propaganda to convince it's population it is superior to everyone else. Thailand is destined to become the next Ne Win's Burma. With a little bad luck, it could rival Kim Jong Il's North Korea. But no one cares. We are watching a self-destructive society in free-fall towards a failed state.

I have taught in rural government schools, Bangkok-based demonstration schools, and elite university programs (not English) and there is actually a very wide divergence. We cannot lump everyone together (even though I just did above). The upper middle class feel that they might have a measure of control. So my demonstration school students did much better than my Isan students. My university students range from being unable to compose a one page essay to students who have no problem writing a 20-page fully footnoted term paper. I am very proud of most of my university students. But their motivation comes from having lived abroad in high-school and university exchange programs. Few of the strong students see themselves as having much of a future if they stay in Thailand. They all saw Titanic, they know the boat is going down.

About two years a local school, trying to make some progress with English development, decided to construct a course 'Thai English'. Meaning teach the typical broken English that we all hear some Thai people using.

The school head was very pleased and he sent the course details to the ministry for approval thinking he would get a very big pat on the back.

He was quickly told NO and told to send in a new course outline focused on correct English. The new outline has never been completed.

[Jumper]

After reading most of these posts, I have a few comments.

First, I think a student's educational success depends on 3 factors: the student themselves, the teachers and the parents.

Some students are just naturally curious and interested in learning. Some dedicated and gifted teachers can awaken that curiosity in otherwise disinterested students. The level of importance parents place on education has been shown to be a prime factor in determining educational success. Posts here have talked about teachers and students, but let's not forget the role of parents in this process.

In my experience (my parents and siblings did not have any education beyond primary school), it's not necessary that the parents themselves be educated; only that they recognize the importance of education and emphasize that importance in the home.

Second, assuming English as the lingua franca of international business, accent is important. It's true that accents are relatively unimportant in conversations between native speakers, but heavier accents can be a problem when one or both of the people involved is a non-native speaker.

My last point is about the method of teaching a foreign language. Myself, I've experienced two different approaches.

I took several years of high school French in high school in the US which was about 45 minutes a day in class (with a non-native French speaker) and a little homework each night. I was near the top of my class, but I still found this method to be pretty ineffective.

Then I was fortunate enough to go through the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA two times: once for Korean and once for Japanese. These were each 1 year long courses taught totally by native speakers where all we did all day and night was study the language, both spoken and written. This technique of immersion was very much more effective, but even so, it still required at least a year in-country to become what anyone might think of as fluent.

The aspect of using native born teachers was important not only because of the correctness of what they taught, but because when they did speak English, the mistakes they made also gave insight into their native languages.

I'm going through this process again now learning Thai, and I'm fortunate to be here. My problem is that I have contact with so many Thais here that speak good English that I'm not really in an immersion environment. It's too easy to fall back to using English.

I come into contact daily with English speaking Thais who have spent little, if any, time outside Thailand, and I am amazed that they can speak so well. It's true that most Thais don't speak good English, but many do. How many native English speaking people in the US speak a foreign language?

[LingLek]

students cant fail a degree, is this correct? whats the point of having one then? it would mean nothing apart from student managed to pay for course for four years

You might want to apply that question globally.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No it's not correct.

When my wife completed her Masters Degree half the class failed the mandatory English module. They were allowed to continue the course but warned they would not be allowed to graduate until they had passed that module in a re-take a couple of months later.

The fact that your wife's experience, or that of a PhD program you know, may have been different doesn't translate into those experiences somehow being the common ones in higher education here.

I'm afraid for most (the typical) university students here, their experience and circumstance is exactly what's being portrayed in the OP.

[cardinalblue]

Jumper,

Sorry but could't resist - I think you mean speak English well...

CB

[Jumper]

Jumper,

Sorry but could't resist - I think you mean speak English well...

CB

I think I stand by what I wrote.

Did you read the line "I am amazed that they can speak so well"?

[elgordo38]

students cant fail a degree, is this correct? whats the point of having one then? it would mean nothing apart from student managed to pay for course for four years

Like the rest of us the school of hard knocks will teach them. It taught me more than my grade 10 education ever taught me.

[scorecard]

“The students nowadays fail because they just don't give a shit about studying and reading and they know that if most of the class fail, the whole class will still pass to the next course and finally graduate. Why? Coz you can't fail students in this country and make them repeat classes,” Wright said in the post.

The problem of the Thai education system in a nutshell.

"That's it in a nut shell!" I was going to say that! It's bloody ridiculous and reflects poorly on the country as a whole.

They 'couldn't give a shit' often translates to:

They turn up late, often very late for class, often miss all morning of a full day classes or all afternoon. Excuses like 'had to go with my sister to pick up her new car' and even lamer excuses.

Plus the lecturer has to keep telling many again and again to stop talking and listen.

Plus many lecturers now stop and approach one of the talkers and say 'what did I just say?' The response is 'I don't know'. Often with arrogance.

Cheating in exams still abounds even though if caught they are removed from the room with an automatic F (which at my university is changed to I (Incomplete) and they can sit again. I refuse to conduct an extra exam for these students, many lecturers do the same.)

Plus continuous talking or texting on their mobile phone. I now go through the ritual at the start of every class:

- Up to 5 minutes late you can join the class, over 5 minutes late cannot enter the room. Under 80% overall attendance cannot sit for exams.

- Tell the whole class to turn their mobiles completely off and put their phone on the desk in front of them and phone cannot be touched. Phones that ring I confiscate, and they get it back at the end of the week. Many lecturers are doing the same thing.

And we still have students who try to demand they should be allowed to join lectures conducted in English because they got A or B for grammar at high school but their conversation / comprehension skills are zero.

Great rules and i hope you get backing for enforcement.

The last zoo I worked in was a technical school in a rural area and when i tried to enforce discipline including mobile phones was told to go easy.

All the students were on a 100% government grant and if they walked the grant went with them. There was discipline of sorts mostly about dress and appearance outside the school so as not to bring it into disrepute.

All appearance but no substance.

I teach at 3 universities in BKK. In all cases the deans / faculty directors etc., do strongly support and encourage more discipline if needed.

One director tells the lecturers to bring undisciplined students to his office.

He listens then asks the students to explain themselves, in English. If they don't speak he tells them 'nobody is leaving this room until you explain yourself' and he then just sits there silently. After a few minutes he says ' I'm waiting and I repeat, nobody leaves this room until you explain yourself'

In severe cases he had listened to both teacher and student then said to the student:

- You cannot complete this course, and all your grades for this and last two semesters are cancelled and no refunds, your past grades cannot be transferred to another university - your grades are cancelled!, and in 2 cases he added, don't come back here for 2 years.

In 2 other cases he said, 'if you want more discussion bring your mother or father to meet me and your lecturers'.

It seems to have a strong impact.

Students in this 'category' about 60% girls, 40% boys.

Edited May 21, 2015 by scorecard

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is also a sizable amount of bribe-taking among "elite" privately funded American universities that are struggling financially--like many Ivy League Schools excluding Harvard, Yale, Columbia and U Penn who are solvent. Foreign students are seen as a revenue stream, and they are accepted and allowed to graduate regardless of their performance so long as their family will make a voluntary $500,000 donation to a building fund or to an endowment for scholarships (for talented students). This happens across the US.

I spent more than a decade working at a very large big city, state university in the U.S. dealing a lot with our fundraising efforts, which were substantial. And I saw almost none of what you're describing on behalf of our foreign students, of which we had many including a lot of Thais.

The families of our foreign students were already paying full-rate tuition -- not the subsidized rates of our in state students. And at private schools, the annual tuition rates plus living abroad expenses for a foreign student are going to be even higher, easily $50,000 a year altogether.

For most foreign families, the cost of sending their children abroad and paying for all the expenses associated with a 4-year U.S. university degree is going to be a substantial expenditure. The foreign families weren't usually lining up to make big donations on top of their other expenses.

Likewise, my father was a longtime graduate studies professor at several private universities, and we didn't see the practice you're describing there either. What probably happened more was, a foreign student would graduate, go on to become successful, and later return to donate to their alma mater.

What I did see, though, at the private universities, was efforts by foreign students to ingratiate themselves with the professors teaching their classes such as through sometimes quite valuable personal gifts (which I was told was the custom in their native countries).

And, at the private universities, there were varying levels of internal pressure not to simply fail foreign students who were paying $25K or $35K a year in tuition, because those students were indeed seen in part as a needed revenue stream.

Edited May 21, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[bkkworker]

I did research 1 year ago on English Language Proficiency tests in Thai Universities. I tested students who passed the proficiency tests. The test was very easy to pass and was very leniently graded. For instance, if students did not know the answer to a question and wrote "I do not know the answer." with a capital at the beginning of the sentence and a period/full stop at the end of the sentence, they would receive 75% of the grade for that question. There were 5 questions and each question needed to be answered in 1 sentence, not 2 or 3 sentences but 1 sentence.

The results of the research was that 63% of the students that took the test failed. It must be mentioned that not all the students were Thai, some were native English speakers, and with that said some of the 37% that passed were native English speakers.