Lending The Thai Family Money

[womble]

Ok, to cut a long story short, i've been with my GF 3 years, she has a decent office job, her family are shop owners, not well off, but comfortable. Many of their friends have bigger houses and cars on loans, but they chose to sell a second property and pay off all loans. Personally I think they are in a better position financially than their flashy friends. Even though their friends joke about their old car!

Anyway the mother and father are really nice and have never asked for a penny, they have pride, and anyway they don't really need it, they put my gf through Rangsit even though it's very expensive so they must be good savers.

She has only one sibling, a brother, he is married and has a young baby, I've only met him once, but we got on well, I like him. He has a lawyers degree and works for the government, he doesn't get paid much, but he has a decent job.

Two months ago we got a phone call from him, he was asking my gf if she could lend him 15k, she said no she doesn't have it, then he got angry and asked her to ask me. She said no she wouldn't ask me and put the phone down. Anyway I said I was prepared to trust him and give him the 15k, but he had to give me a date, any date and promise to pay it all back by then. The date he gave was 7 days, he asked to speak to me, thanked me and said I would have it back next week. My gf spoke to him again and said he had to be sure he could pay it back next week, otherwise it would make her and the family look really bad, she made it very clear how important it was to her that it would be paid back. I also made it very clear that should it be paid back on time, there would be no problem in me helping him out again, but should there be any problems, I wouldn't be able to help him again.

Now when the 7 days had passed, I didn't phone, I wanted to see if he would phone his sister and ask for account details, he didn't phone. So I left it another two weeks and asked her to call him and see what was going on. He said he didn't have the money. Anyway they had a big argument about it and that was that. Anyway she was real angry and said she would get her mum to pay me back right away, which I wouldn't allow, the brother is over 30, his mother shouldn't be penalised because he can't take care of his finances.

I have only brought it up one time since, and I joked about him not paying back, it didn't go down well! So I havn't brought it up again. To be honest i'm not that bothered, 15k is not a lot to me, and I actually think it's a small price to pay to find out if you can trust someone. I would still like it paid back on principle, and ofcourse it's my money anyway.

I'm not sure whether to put more pressure on and ask for the money, or just leave it and teat it as a lesson on his Charactor. If he had paid back and in future asked to borrow more I would have given it to him as he had proved himself, but now that cannot be done. So should I keep asking, or forget about it and chalk it down to expericance.

The other thing is my gf wants me to go up and stay with the family, which I wanted to do, but after this i'm not so keen. I'm thinking of saying that i'm not prepared to go up until the money is paid back, but i'm not sure if this is a good idea or even fair. The parents afterall havn't done anything wrong, but I feel I have lost face so don't really want to go, especially if he is going to be there.

any advise?

[Donz]

yes I sau go visit the family with your gf, because you shouldnt not be visiting her family because of 1 bad apple, its not fair on her parent and your gf wasnt prepared to lend it to him so maybe you shouldnt have, but I dont know your financial details so too hard to judge.

So was it just 15k baht?? maybe he is just a gambler and I find it will be hard for you to get it back if he has a real problem.

Just dont speak to him, and dont penalise the other good members of you gf's family for him.

[ace]

Like you say, 15k is not a lot to find out about the character of the brother.

But I think the loss of face is with your girlfriend. Antagonizing the situation would likely increase her stress.

If it was me, I would pretty much go along with the Donz and visit the family, don't stress the situation and forget brother exists as much as possible.

Just my 2 cents......

[GuestHouse]

Rule No 1. is not "Never a borrower or lender be"

Rule No 1 is "Blood is thicker than water".

You've lent the brother money on agreed terms that he returns the loan by a certain date.

The date has passed and it is now clear the money is not going to be returned.

My advice, is let it go; don't mention the loan, put it at the back of your mind.

DO NOT press your g/f on the matter and certainly do not agree to anyone else repaying the loan.

DO remember this the if the brother ever calls for another loan - Refuse that loan point blank on the basis of his failure to repay this loan.

When you refuse any second request for a loan, do so calmly and without emotion, simply say 'No I can't lend him money, he didn't repay the last loan I made'.

DO NOT discuss the matter further.

That asside, my congratulations, Bht15K is pretty cheap to get rid of all future loans from the brother.

Well done that man!

[mrbojangles]

Two months ago we got a phone call from him, he was asking my gf if she could lend him 15k, she said no she doesn't have it, then he got angry and asked her to ask me. She said no she wouldn't ask me and put the phone down.

Sorry Womble but you should have listened to the GF. Now yourself and the family are in a sticky situation. If the money doesn't mean much to you, leave it alone, as the rest of the family will have to put up with the ill feeling. You will have the last laugh, as it is guaranteed he will ask again at some point, when you can tell him to FO

[womble]

So u reckon completely forget about it and not bring it up, ever. If I see him should I just not mention it, what would a Thai do? I don't think they would let it go.

I think i'll go see the family then, but ask that he isn't there until I recieve payment. Is it ridiculous to boycott family gatherings if he's present. Afterall i'm not really that bothered, but I don't want to be seen as a soft touch.

It's 15k baht by the way.

And yeah, it's F.A to get rid of any future requests with ease + she has no other siblings.

So I guess it could be good luck.

You know maybe some members should try to force small loans on the family, when they don't pay back, refuse all future requests!

Actually he may well ask again, as he may think that as I havn't asked for it back maybe i'm an easy touch, i'll take great pride in turning down any future applications, although I won't show it......

Edited September 12, 2006 by womble

[bendix]

I agree with the others.

If you dont go to see the family, it will be your gf losing face, not you. I would put it to the back of my mind, talk normally (even more politely than normal maybe) to the brother when you see him, but make a mental note that he's not to be trusted and put his sister through this issue.

15k . . cheap at twice the price to learn that lesson, I think.

[Donz]

So u reckon completely forget about it and not bring it up, ever. If I see him should I just not mention it, what would a Thai do? I don't think they would let it go.

I think i'll go see the family then, but ask that he isn't there until I recieve payment. Is it ridiculous to boycott family gatherings if he's present. Afterall i'm not really that bothered, but I don't want to be seen as a soft touch.

It's 15k baht by the way.

Dont boycott family gathering because of him, go if he is there just be cold to him. Dont laugh at his jokes etc. be nice to the family and like I said before. Dont penalise the family because of him. Thais have strong family ties and you should not boycott them as they may think you are bitter at them for there son not paying you back

[Pink Mist]

IMO maintain your independance stay at a hotel and visit, just make him uncomfortable

[simcity]

ask him to give back 700 a month for two years , very low interest .

no one will lose face ! ask you GF first if she think it is reasonable .

[Pink Mist]

ask him to give back 700 a month for two years , very low interest .

no one will lose face ! ask you GF first if she think it is reasonable .

good suggestion , main thing is ask the gf, it's allways about face as we all know, but what if he dont want to repay loan

[LoveDaBlues]

Rule No 1. is not "Never a borrower or lender be"

Rule No 1 is "Blood is thicker than water".

You've lent the brother money on agreed terms that he returns the loan by a certain date.

The date has passed and it is now clear the money is not going to be returned.

My advice, is let it go; don't mention the loan, put it at the back of your mind.

DO NOT press your g/f on the matter and certainly do not agree to anyone else repaying the loan.

DO remember this the if the brother ever calls for another loan - Refuse that loan point blank on the basis of his failure to repay this loan.

When you refuse any second request for a loan, do so calmly and without emotion, simply say 'No I can't lend him money, he didn't repay the last loan I made'.

DO NOT discuss the matter further.

That asside, my congratulations, Bht15K is pretty cheap to get rid of all future loans from the brother.

Well done that man!

A good post but actually you can carry it further. When hit up for a loan by anyone in the future just say, "sorry but the wife's brother didn't repay his loan yet; when he does I'll loan to you". This gets you off the hook AND makes the scoundral lose face even more.

[tominchaam]

Womble, why worry about 15k – small money compared to what it could have been.

I consider you to be lucky to only have lost 15 k. What about he repaid you in time and it went on and on. Most probably you would have faced similar situation to many farangs here – loans of large amount never being repaid. So be happy – and try to remember it as something good as it is now very easy for you to decline any request for a loan from your new family. By the way – your gf seems to be a clever lady who rejected her brother’s request from the beginning.

Edited September 12, 2006 by tominchaam

[tuky]

A good post but actually you can carry it further. When hit up for a loan by anyone in the future just say, "sorry but the wife's brother didn't repay his loan yet; when he does I'll loan to you". This gets you off the hook AND makes the scoundral lose face even more.

This is my feeling on the matter too. Whether it is advisable is another story. However it does kill two birds with the one stone, gets you out of lending money and shows that you are not actually a pushover. The third aspect is the face aspect.

Best of luck mate.

[Heng]

So u reckon completely forget about it and not bring it up, ever. If I see him should I just not mention it, what would a Thai do? I don't think they would let it go.

We (Thais) are not all playing by the same rule book by any means... but I'd say folks lean towards letting it go, but not forgetting, more than active collection (although there are plenty who will go that route as well).

[OZONE]

Shame on your brother in-law. I disagree other poster who says that your wife lost face, its more like your brother inlaw who is loosing face.

First, i would ask my wife to let her parents know the situation so they're not shocked about the upcoming event. Second, I would definitely attend the family function and ask your brother in-law for the money in front of the whole family. I think this will cause such an embarassement to him that he'll have to pay up.

If you do this, Nooone will ever want to borrow money from you again and your brother in-law will never like you any more ..yippppeeee. All finanacial problem(s) solved.

If that don't work just puch him in the face and tell him to keep the freaking money for the doctors bill. After all, its really not that much (15000 baht = $375.00 approx?)

[britmaveric]

Well the brother stuck himself in it - one less relative to lend dosh too. Small price for 15K.

[womble]

Well, thanks for all the replies, i'm gonna let it go, and think if it as a blessing. My gf told her mum and dad as soon as he hadn't paid it, I don't think they were too impressed, anyway i'm gonna act as if nothing happened, I'm not going to show ill feeling towards the Brother, if he ever mentions it or says he's going to pay me soon which he may next time I see him out of embaressment, i'll just say please make sure you pay soon as it's been a long time.

I don't think there's much point in being hostile towards him, that will just make others feel uncomfortable and I don't want that.

Any future requests for money will be flatly turned down from anyone and the valid reason of his non payment as reasons for me not being able to help others out.

When he one day needs to borrow money for a deposit on a house or something of similar importance he will no doubt feel extremely stupid when I remind him of his faliure to pay the last loan.

Edited September 12, 2006 by womble

[cclub75]

I have only brought it up one time since, and I joked about him not paying back, it didn't go down well! So I havn't brought it up again. To be honest i'm not that bothered, 15k is not a lot to me, and I actually think it's a small price to pay to find out if you can trust someone. I would still like it paid back on principle, and ofcourse it's my money anyway

It costed me 100 000 to find out. Well, not exactlyn I knew that I will never get my money back. But I wanted a proof. My western rationalizing mind wanted a proof.

Done.

And it was exactly the same pattern : a bloody brother, normal family, civil servants. But the brother is a jerk.

Mai pen rai.

Since then, and because of "the proof", i always say no now. Without any regret or moral problems.

In a way you could say that it was a good investment : I lost 100 000 THB, but i could have lost much more without "the proof".

Ah ah ah

Edited September 12, 2006 by cclub75

[fxm88]

Dont boycott family gathering because of him, go if he is there just be cold to him. Dont laugh at his jokes etc. be nice to the family and like I said before. Dont penalise the family because of him. Thais have strong family ties and you should not boycott them as they may think you are bitter at them for there son not paying you back

Why not boycott the family? Who do you think it was that raised him to be like this? Do you really think they are any different? If this debt was owed to a Thai you can be certain that the entire extended family would come together to make sure it got repaid one way or another.

Where is the family? Bangkok? Suburb of Bangkok? Countryside?

[the swagman]

Dont boycott family gathering because of him, go if he is there just be cold to him. Dont laugh at his jokes etc. be nice to the family and like I said before. Dont penalise the family because of him. Thais have strong family ties and you should not boycott them as they may think you are bitter at them for there son not paying you back

Why not boycott the family? Who do you think it was that raised him to be like this? Do you really think they are any different? If this debt was owed to a Thai you can be certain that the entire extended family would come together to make sure it got repaid one way or another.

Where is the family? Bangkok? Suburb of Bangkok? Countryside?

I am going out on a limb here.

I agree with Donz and most of the other posters in saying what is done is done and learn the lesson well.

I will disagree with fxm88 totally.

Your attitude shows a complete lack of understanding of Thai culture.

Point by point - because it would be rude to the family who seem to accepted you as one of the family and who don't look at you as a money point.

- Nobody raised him to be like this. He thought of this all by himself. He is (ir)responsible for himself.

From personal experience Yes, I do think they are different. It's amazing what life teaches us. We all lose a bit of the optimism and responsibility our parents tried to install in us as time goes on and as life goes on.

If the debt wasto a Thai, the whole family would gather round. Come on man, the guy is 30 plus. Time to stand on your own two feet. Many parents think like that.

What difference where the family is from.

Middle class, reasonable jobs, trying to get by honestly. That what it sounds like to me.

Poor, scraping to make a baht, ATM machine, it doesn't sound like it.

Try to be a little less cynical fxm88, please.

You chose the place to live.

[womble]

The family live in Ubon, in the city itself, the shops are in the city. But as Swagman says I don't think that makes any difference, there are people who pay debts and people who don't, those that pay back are in my good books, those that don't my bad books, regardless of class.

The family are an honest bunch and I guess the brother is on the whole, other than this issue in 3 years I have never had any problem, nor any other requests for money. They came here to visit once, drove all the way down to samui. The father, Mother, Aunty, Brothers Wife, and baby, for the return journey I offered to pay for the mother to fly back with the baby, so it's a little annoying that the only time I have met him I pay for his wife and baby to have a flight back as they were so tired and squashed in the car on the way down, and then this happens.

You definatley can't blame the Parents for this, it's not their fault, they saved and paid for their two childeren to go to decent universities, and considering they are not particulary well off I think thats quite an achievment.

The fact they don't have any loans, but have a business, have put kids through university actually gives me a lot of respect for them. By him not paying the loan he has gone the opposite way to his parents. They have set the example, in this instance he has failed to follow.

Edited September 12, 2006 by womble

[binnsy]

sorry to but you are going to have to put it down to experiance your chances of getting the wedge back have gone but on the bright side 15K is not the end of the world.invite a few of the family for a meal but leave the brother out he shoild get the message.

[Roamin]

Best to just let it go. However, you should have taken your wife's lead and not loaned the money.

I was 'had' for B50,000 to be repaid in 7 days. A family member, when she got to know about it said "Why didn't you ask me if you should do it?" She offered to pay it but I said no. Now I hear that maybe, just maybe, I'll get it back from the borrower.

We live and learn.

[jackr]

Careful, as too much mai pen rai and letting things go may build over time and you may explode and let it all out in a fit of rage. You could always fork out another 10k and get him sorted.

[Thaddeus]

Dont boycott family gathering because of him, go if he is there just be cold to him. Dont laugh at his jokes etc. be nice to the family and like I said before. Dont penalise the family because of him. Thais have strong family ties and you should not boycott them as they may think you are bitter at them for there son not paying you back

Why not boycott the family? Who do you think it was that raised him to be like this? Do you really think they are any different? If this debt was owed to a Thai you can be certain that the entire extended family would come together to make sure it got repaid one way or another.

Where is the family? Bangkok? Suburb of Bangkok? Countryside?

Going out on a limb here, I have made loans to the immediate family, I have always had the loan repaid (no interest charged, I'm not that sort of person)..... I have had requests from non-immediate family. i.e. the sister of an auntie.... there is one golden rule for me..... if the wife says 'no' the answer is 'no'

[Ricardo]

Anybody else think that, just possibly, a young father with a newish baby needed some help, from his brother-in-law ? Just a thought.

It is fairly normal to give a red-envelope, for a new baby, in our family. You just gave 15,000 Baht, a trivial sum to a farang, and gained the perfect excuse not to lend again, without security, if you care to use it in future.

Certainly you should have given more weight to your wife's opinion - after all, she has known her brother for much longer than you ! Did she lose face - when you ignored her advice ?

But I don't see why any of this has to mean that you don't visit your family again in the future ?

[brahmburgers]

A loan in Thailand translates to a 'grant' or 'gift.'

Only loan what you're willing to give away.

A westerner being with a Thai woman involves him giving money.

No money, no girl, no girlfriend, no wife.

One of the top questions a farang needs to ask himself when he wants to shack up with a Thai lady is:

How much am I willing to spend to stay with her?

If that amount is not sufficient in her view, there's either no relationship, or it's a strained one at best.

Any notions of romance, are best left for novels and videos. Regardless of what she might say about romance and love, her prime concerns are money (for her) and security for her family.

Unfortunately, farang men are so easily duped, that they keep getting on the conveyer belt of hopes and dreams for their entrancing Thai gals and dumped down the other end with dashed hopes and thin wallets.

[Ling Kae]

I would go visit the family and pull the gf and family members together for an informal chat without the brother and tell them how much you love your gf and the family but as for the brother you will never loan him money again but you don't hate him. That way nobody but the brother loses face and they will be sure to pass your message on to the brother.

[moonoi]

A loan in Thailand translates to a 'grant' or 'gift.'

Only loan what you're willing to give away.

A westerner being with a Thai woman involves him giving money.

No money, no girl, no girlfriend, no wife.

One of the top questions a farang needs to ask himself when he wants to shack up with a Thai lady is:

How much am I willing to spend to stay with her?

If that amount is not sufficient in her view, there's either no relationship, or it's a strained one at best.

Any notions of romance, are best left for novels and videos. Regardless of what she might say about romance and love, her prime concerns are money (for her) and security for her family.

Unfortunately, farang men are so easily duped, that they keep getting on the conveyer belt of hopes and dreams for their entrancing Thai gals and dumped down the other end with dashed hopes and thin wallets.

Thats the biggest pile of <deleted> I've read in a long time. Thanks for the laugh

Maybe thats how it worked for you, but I'm sure that a great many people on this forum have experienced the exact opposite to what you state. Love and Romance is alive and well in Thailand you just have to look in the right places.