News On The New Regulation

[opalhort]

Is it now too late to apply for the 3m investment visa? I realize there are only 15 days left this month.

Good news.

They are accepting application till the end of the month. As long as you have a 30 day consideration stamp before Oct 1st and are approved, you will be 'grandfathered in"

By the way, the logic why they are doing away with the scheme. “It was too easy for mafia influences to get a visa as 3 million Baht was nothing for them.”

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

When you have a 30 day consideration stamp,are you allowed to leave the country during that period or will this delete the whole process.

usually you can leave during a consideration period but you will need a re-entry permit (B1,000.-)

and you'll have to back in Thailand before the consideration stamp expires.

opalhort

[loveandlaughter]

By the by, you are supposed to have onward or return ticket if you do not have a valid visa in your passport. I came back from UK recently on return from Thailand and was asked - could show B visa so okay - one time before had to buy ticket on at airport.

So that will be the situation.....might also be for short hops in from Singapore, HK or wherever...,.

[Soju]

Surely the worst scenerio for anyone is a visa run to Penang for a SINGLE entry tourist visa, which with extensions is good for 105 days;

then after that is done, a series of the allowed 3 visa runs to Cambodia, then after 3 VOA's back to Penang for a SINGLE entry tourist visa, then the 105 days .....etc. Geditt?

Based on what I've been reading, I have to totally disagree with this. Almost certainly Thai immigration will or already has started clamping down on issuing tourist visas to people who appear to be doing visa runs. You won't be able to just go into a Thai consulate and get a tourist visa if your passport is filled with stamps showing that you basically live in Thailand. It would defeat the whole purpose of the new regulations if they didn't also clamp down on issuing these visas.

Also, for several people here, myself included, getting a tourist visa is not an option some or all of the time. For frequent tourists and frequent business travellers, we may not know exactly when we will be going, or may not be able to visit a Thai consulate, or any number of other reasons that make getting any sort of tourist visa extremely difficult if not impossible. We have no choice but to cancel our trips to Thailand, or at least cut back on their frequency.

Absolutely there are some people who will be prohibited from spending as much time in Thailand as they would like to. You cannot say to everyone "get a visa" because there are definitely some people who will not be able to get a visa.

[mark lamai]

anyone know for sure about this?

a very important factor in planning one's whereabouts.

[Baan]

How about this:

We run a school for expats (from our own country). The school is under registration and will be registered anyday.

We also have a kindergarten and have 6 thais employed.

We offer families the chance to take a "timeout" from their stressfull life in their homecountry.

Bring their kids to thailand, put them in the school following the same curriculum they have in their homecountry. This way the children will not miss out on anything.

We have over 150 students (90 families) that would like to spend up to 10 months in thailand before they go back. For next year it's almost twice as many.

They all rent a house/apartment, spend money in restaurants and on the beach as well in many other places. Not doing anything illegal, just relaxing and spending money.

Now, they can stay from 4 weeks up to a full school year (37 weeks).

Obviously they have to go on a visarun to be able to stay more than 3 months.

The children can get an *ED* visa, but how about the parents ?

Most of them can not come up with the 800k required to follow the childs *ED* visa, and only one parent can do so.

The school is not that expensive, and we would like to keep it that way. The idea is to offer families with an average income a chance to come.

What would be the best way for the parents to arrange that they can stay the full time ?

[A_Traveller]

Surely the worst scenerio for anyone is a visa run to Penang for a SINGLE entry tourist visa, which with extensions is good for 105 days;

then after that is done, a series of the allowed 3 visa runs to Cambodia, then after 3 VOA's back to Penang for a SINGLE entry tourist visa, then the 105 days .....etc. Geditt?

Based on what I've been reading, I have to totally disagree with this. Almost certainly Thai immigration will or already has started clamping down on issuing tourist visas to people who appear to be doing visa runs. You won't be able to just go into a Thai consulate and get a tourist visa if your passport is filled with stamps showing that you basically live in Thailand. It would defeat the whole purpose of the new regulations if they didn't also clamp down on issuing these visas.

Also, for several people here, myself included, getting a tourist visa is not an option some or all of the time. For frequent tourists and frequent business travellers, we may not know exactly when we will be going, or may not be able to visit a Thai consulate, or any number of other reasons that make getting any sort of tourist visa extremely difficult if not impossible. We have no choice but to cancel our trips to Thailand, or at least cut back on their frequency.

Absolutely there are some people who will be prohibited from spending as much time in Thailand as they would like to. You cannot say to everyone "get a visa" because there are definitely some people who will not be able to get a visa.

Have to reinforce this point. One another of the many threads on this a member has posted an email he received today from Penang 'book shop' which says that visa restrictions are being put in place already there.

Regards

[phazey]

Thanks for the legwork Sunbelt Asia.

I've a wife and 4yr old in Bkk. I work in Myanmar and travel at least once a month to get some family time in. Am i correct in thinking that if i present my Marriage cert and His Birth cert, i an able to apply for a Non-Imm O Multi entry Visa ? Am i also correct in thinking that i will not be able to get this from a neighboring country (such as Myanmar).

I think the missus knows someone at the embassy - hope this will help.

Thanks once again.

[edit] i've a long way to go until i'm 50 btw :/

Edited September 13, 2006 by phazey

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for the legwork Sunbelt Asia.

I've a wife and 4yr old in Bkk. I work in Myanmar and travel at least once a month to get some family time in. Am i correct in thinking that if i present my Marriage cert and His Birth cert, i an able to apply for a Non-Imm O Multi entry Visa ? Am i also correct in thinking that i will not be able to get this from a neighboring country (such as Myanmar).

I think the missus knows someone at the embassy - hope this will help.

Thanks once again.

Link here will give you an overview of the visa position in English from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. At first blush I think you should be OK, but as they say the devil is in the detail.

Good Luck

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php

/edit typo//

Edited September 13, 2006 by A_Traveller

[phazey]

Thanks for the legwork Sunbelt Asia.

I've a wife and 4yr old in Bkk. I work in Myanmar and travel at least once a month to get some family time in. Am i correct in thinking that if i present my Marriage cert and His Birth cert, i an able to apply for a Non-Imm O Multi entry Visa ? Am i also correct in thinking that i will not be able to get this from a neighboring country (such as Myanmar).

I think the missus knows someone at the embassy - hope this will help.

Thanks once again.

Link here will give you an overview of the visa position in English from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. At first blush I think you should be OK, but as they say the devil is in the detail.

Good Luck

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php

/edit typo//

Thanks very much.

One thing i did forget to ask was, as of Oct 1st, my previous entries into Thailand will be counted ? I need to get there to pick up the documents - will be a royal pain if i'm turned away. - I spose i can get the missus to come to the airport with His Birth Cert....

Cheers once again.

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for the legwork Sunbelt Asia.

I've a wife and 4yr old in Bkk. I work in Myanmar and travel at least once a month to get some family time in. Am i correct in thinking that if i present my Marriage cert and His Birth cert, i an able to apply for a Non-Imm O Multi entry Visa ? Am i also correct in thinking that i will not be able to get this from a neighboring country (such as Myanmar).

I think the missus knows someone at the embassy - hope this will help.

Thanks once again.

Link here will give you an overview of the visa position in English from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. At first blush I think you should be OK, but as they say the devil is in the detail.

Good Luck

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php

/edit typo//

Thanks very much.

One thing i did forget to ask was, as of Oct 1st, my previous entries into Thailand will be counted ? I need to get there to pick up the documents - will be a royal pain if i'm turned away. - I spose i can get the missus to come to the airport with His Birth Cert....

Cheers once again.

It appears that previous stamps will be counted from October 1. In many ways that's the real problem with this, not that it's being done but the lack of opportunity for people to organise 'the right way'.

As an example one embassy said a 'no criminal' document required for a retirement visa could take 6 to 10 weeks.

Regards

PS Like the avatar.

[Dazzler]

Is it now too late to apply for the 3m investment visa? I realize there are only 15 days left this month.

Good news.

They are accepting application till the end of the month. As long as you have a 30 day consideration stamp before Oct 1st and are approved, you will be 'grandfathered in"

By the way, the logic why they are doing away with the scheme. “It was too easy for mafia influences to get a visa as 3 million Baht was nothing for them.”

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

When you have a 30 day consideration stamp,are you allowed to leave the country during that period or will this delete the whole process.

usually you can leave during a consideration period but you will need a re-entry permit (B1,000.-)

and you'll have to back in Thailand before the consideration stamp expires.

opalhort

I have a condo and may apply for the Investment Visa.

How much does it cost?

Where do I go to get it (Soi 5 somewhere?)

Is it ok that I bought my condo last month?

Thanks

[jdinasia]

did you buy it new? was it over 3mil baht?

[ramirez]

Based on what I've been reading, I have to totally disagree with this. Almost certainly Thai immigration will or already has started clamping down on issuing tourist visas to people who appear to be doing visa runs. You won't be able to just go into a Thai consulate and get a tourist visa if your passport is filled with stamps showing that you basically live in Thailand. It would defeat the whole purpose of the new regulations if they didn't also clamp down on issuing these visas.

It doesnt make sense to me. They could surely increase visa fees to an extent and start a flourishing business selling visas to VOA candidates which would cover up some potential tax loss caused by these individuals, which is what they currently have problems with as I understand.

[Dazzler]

did you buy it new? was it over 3mil baht?

5 million, not new, from a farang

[stickman]

It appears that previous stamps will be counted from October 1. In many ways that's the real problem with this, not that it's being done but the lack of opportunity for people to organise 'the right way'.

I got an email from a reader of my site just now who went to talk with Immigration about it all at the main Immigration office Suan Plu. According to what they told him, the counting of 30 day stamps STARTS from October 1st.

They also stated that there would be no restriction on entering the country on tourist visas obtained from Thai embassies / consulates abroad.

Now of course they might have it wrong, or have told him worng or he may have misheard, but that is what was said.

Stick

[BPayette]

Absolutely. If you have a Green Card you can do that and you have the correct paper work to do so.

The same happens in Thailand. Get the correct paper work and everything will be ok. But if companies employ some "Tourists" on a 30 Day entry Stamp or Tourist Visa, sorry but that's not the way it should be.....

Not true! Your work permit is paid for, and tied to your employer. Leave the employer and the work permit is cancelled, and you have to apply all over again (and someone has to pay again) with the new employer.

[kevinbkk]

In which Way you need to get the correct paper work is another issue, but get it at all.

For that there is no difference. If you have the work permit, you legal but if you don't you illegal. It doesn't matter in which country you are.

How many times you must apply and under which conditions is another point.

Edited September 13, 2006 by kevinbkk

[thaihome]

News from the new regulation:

This is coming from the Chief of Immigration.

5.Now the news for frequent visitors: ...If you have a visa on arrival more than three times in six months, you cannot come into Thailand without a visa from an Embassy/Consulate...

Maybe someone has already asked this question (I couldn’t bring my self to read the many pages of duplicates of the other thread), but are you sure this is going to apply to visa exempt, which is clearly something completely different than visa on arrival (VOA). A visa exempt entry stamp is not a VOA. When you get a VOA (I have seen one) it is an actual visa in your passport with an accompanying entry stamp, usually for 14 days.

From the very first article on this, it is apparent that Immigration targeting Indians and Chinese that are abusing the VOA program. Is all this uproar over a misunderstanding?

TH

[Nepal4me]

Is it now too late to apply for the 3m investment visa? I realize there are only 15 days left this month.

Good news.

They are accepting application till the end of the month. As long as you have a 30 day consideration stamp before Oct 1st and are approved, you will be 'grandfathered in"

By the way, the logic why they are doing away with the scheme. “It was too easy for mafia influences to get a visa as 3 million Baht was nothing for them.”

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

When you have a 30 day consideration stamp,are you allowed to leave the country during that period or will this delete the whole process.

usually you can leave during a consideration period but you will need a re-entry permit (B1,000.-)

and you'll have to back in Thailand before the consideration stamp expires.

opalhort

Good news..........for me anyway. This morning I went down to the Suan Plu immigration office. Brought my documentation for the purchase of a condo, my tax reciepts showing I paid all taxes owed and my note from the bank stating the funds came from abroad. I got a 90 day non-0 visa all within an hour. Talk about your Thai efficiency Additionally I paid an extra 3,800 baht so I could have multi entry during these 90 days. After the 90 day visa, I get a one year visa. Normally I get about 4 VoA stamps/month so this new ruling really would have affected me. Lucky (if that's the right word) I bought that 10 mil condo a year ago. It is a really nice place too. We'll have to see how this pans out but if I'm grandfathered in great, if not, have to figure out what plan B will be

[Dazzler]

did you buy it new? was it over 3mil baht?

5 million, not new, from a farang

In addition to my previous questions, I already have a Work Permit, so:

1. Does this make getting the Investment Visa easier?

2. Is it a good move to get the Investment Visa as my job is not secure?

[manjara]

Good to see it's clear now. Clearly another measure introduced withouth properly thinking this trough.

Two observations:

This is the end of Thailand as a travel hub for southeast Asia.

Airlines are going to get mental over this, how are they suppose to check is someone is illegible for entry into Thailand. Obviously they cannot rely just on the Passport and the stamps inside, (People could be on a brand new Passport) Somehow I doubt they will get into the thai immigration online system to check.

Remember as far as I know, the airlines are responsible if someone is refused entry due to visa regualations. With the current system it is simple for the airlines, and they might only refuse people who do not comply with the onward ticket requirement for visa exemption.

So if enough people are going to refused at the airport, with all the hassles associated, before you know it, all airlines are going to require Tourist visas for all passengers, regardless if they are on the 41 country list.

This in potention could have a great impact on tourism.

yeap, you're 100% correct.

no more short stopovers for me in BKK on my way to other asian countries. i can't (at least, not easily).

and this is so impossible for airlines to regulate that if they decide they want to try, they'll just require you to have a real visa and ignore the possibility that you could get a 30-day entry on arrival.

either that, or they'll just require that you purchase your return ticket, so that if you are denied entry, they simply re-schedule your return ticket, and you've paid them to fly you to the BKK immigration line and back home. this way they lose nothing if you're denied entry.

I've had trouble in the past with a one way ticket and no visa for Thailand. It sometimes took several minutes of discussion to convince them that I was ok to get entry to Thailand with a VOA. It will be compulsory in future, I bet, to have either a real Visa or a return ticket...

[manjara]

usually you can leave during a consideration period but you will need a re-entry permit (B1,000.-)

and you'll have to back in Thailand before the consideration stamp expires.

opalhort

Good news..........for me anyway. This morning I went down to the Suan Plu immigration office. Brought my documentation for the purchase of a condo, my tax reciepts showing I paid all taxes owed and my note from the bank stating the funds came from abroad. I got a 90 day non-0 visa all within an hour. Talk about your Thai efficiency Additionally I paid an extra 3,800 baht so I could have multi entry during these 90 days. After the 90 day visa, I get a one year visa. Normally I get about 4 VoA stamps/month so this new ruling really would have affected me. Lucky (if that's the right word) I bought that 10 mil condo a year ago. It is a really nice place too. We'll have to see how this pans out but if I'm grandfathered in great, if not, have to figure out what plan B will be

...and see how many farang there are queuing up to buy your condo?! Either it's going to get easier to get real visas, or the property market in Thailand is going to have a bit of a correction.

[taxin]

News from the new regulation:

This is coming from the Chief of Immigration.

1.Retirement Visa extension. If you have a foreign married spouse who is a dependent they will be able to get this dependent visa now. ( change of what has been happing the last couple weeks)

2.Retirement visa extension: If you have children under 20. They will no longer be able to get a dependent visa based on you having an extension of stay on retirement. They want these kids to get it based on education so they go to school.

3..Investment Visa extension: Will no longer be available after Oct 1st for new applicants on 3 million Baht.

4. Investment visa extension. For existing extension of stay holders of 3 million Baht, we are now being told this will now be grandfathered in and they will be able to get the extension forever as long as they renew. (Yes I know reversal from several hours ago but the government is aware that people bought condos before on this scheme and now will allow it.)

5.Now the news for frequent visitors: We have checked this upwards and backwards all day and it has been confirmed by a copy of the new regulation we have. If you have a visa on arrival more than three times in six months, you cannot come into Thailand without a visa from an Embassy/Consulate. When you enter Thailand, even if you are here just 1 hour, this counts as 30 days. If you come back 6 weeks later for 2 days, this again is 30 days. If you arrive a month later for 4 days, still counts as 30 days. When you leave, you cannot enter Thailand for 3.5 months without coming back with a visa. The reason is to force people who are supposed to have work permits to do so and pay tax.

Another example; you arrive for a week, this counts as 30 days, One month later 3 days and its 30 days, two months later and its for a two week period, still another 30 days. You can reenter Thailand in 6 weeks without having a visa.

6.On extension of stay based support of a Thai national (Marriage visa), before if you applied for this extension of stay, you would get a 30 day consideration stamp. Once you return in 30 days you would get the one year extension. Now it will be the same as an extension of stay based on business with the norm of three 30 day consideration stamps. Immigration will go out and check to see if it’s a real marriage or a sham before issuing the one year.

7.On an extension of stay based on being a Monk. No dependents will be allowed to get an extension of stay based on being a dependent.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks much for this information! I'm wondering how this affects those of us (visa runners) who have signed apartment contracts. Will we be released from our contracts early & security deposits returned....?

Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

[A_Traveller]

It appears that previous stamps will be counted from October 1. In many ways that's the real problem with this, not that it's being done but the lack of opportunity for people to organise 'the right way'.

I got an email from a reader of my site just now who went to talk with Immigration about it all at the main Immigration office Suan Plu. According to what they told him, the counting of 30 day stamps STARTS from October 1st.

They also stated that there would be no restriction on entering the country on tourist visas obtained from Thai embassies / consulates abroad.

Now of course they might have it wrong, or have told him worng or he may have misheard, but that is what was said.

Stick

Hi Stick,

Something we all have to remember is that there is still no statement from IB, and as was shown yesterday, there is always the possibility that information posted is subsequently amended.

As the saying goes, the way to he_l is paved with good intentions.

Interestingly another poster, said they had spoken with Suan Plu and they were also told that the count starts from 1st October.

Regards

[wildpikey]

Sunbelt,

I work in Iraq as a Security Contractor.

I have a 1 year rental agreement for an apartment in Phuket that I payed for, 2 months ago.(180000 bath)

I moved to Thailand last year in July and my schedule and TVE looks like this:

In the last year, leading up til Oct.01 I have been in Thailand:

31 Oct-19 Nov (TVE/VOA until 29 Nov)

19 Feb-19 Mar (TVE/VOA until 20 March)

26 Jun-24 Jul (TVE/VOA until 25 July)

01 Aug- 12 Aug (TVE/VOA until 30 August)

Now I get my next leave on 15 October until 31 November....

Which means I have to do a "visa run" on Nov 15, to be able to stay until I go back to work on the 31st...I was planning to go to Singapore for a couple of days to see the sights. But I guess I cant come back, if this is a 3 stamps in a 6 month period...Since on October 15, I get my third stamp in that period....So I wont be able to go back....

Am I correct in that assumption?

And it seems from December Im working two months on, one off...

Somehow I find it uncomprenhensible that Im an "undesireable", as I spend a shitload of money on my leave, as a tourist in a tourist place, I dont break any laws, ride with a helmet on my rented motorbike, etc....

I think they are hitting the wrong people with this legislation....

If they wanted to hit Chinese and Indian workers that just stay and never go back without workpermits, meaning staying as illegal aliens, then they need to target those groups specifically and not just do this shotgunning of all...

Im 35, not planned on getting married, with all these new rules and a shaky government "cracking down" on foreigners, why would any foreigner in my situation (And I know of several that do exactly what I do who live like me in Thailand) then want to invest 3-10 million Bath in a Thai-bank?

hi mate, im also a 35 year old security contarctor in Iraq, im absolutly livid about this toilet decision. Im also in an apartment in BKK and do a rotation on and off that will mean that i should get into Thailand on the 29th Sep, but after this leave period im stuffed. Ive got loads of entry visa in my passport, and even when im back, (which i consider my home now) i sometimnes jet off to nearby countries, which will make it even worse for us now!!!

The only thing i can think of, is trying to get a visa in Dubai on the way through, which im looking into now for future trips home. would mean the pain of hanging around though.... all in all its worse for us i think than anyone (us being expat overseas workers). i already said in a previous post that im already thinking of moving to try a newcountry, but this is just anger showing through. although im wondering if it gets to hard and there is no easy solution for the likes of us, it may have to happen.

(just confirm someone, that even though ive lots of visa stamps in my passport, as long as i enter thailand next toime before oct 1st i wil not be subject to the new law yet and will be able to stay for the 30 days??)

I am an overseas worker as well doing 4weeks x 4. Shouldnt be a problem right. wrong, I went down to singapore to do some shopping last time I was home so I have 1 30day stamp in my passport to many. Now I cant go home to see my wife and 3 kids. I need to get my wife to meet me in Penang to see if I can get some other king of visa. what a bunch of boneheads!!!

by the sounds of things you should be ok as long as u get back into thailand before oct 1st when it actually starts, they will start checking and backdateing, but only when you arrive after oct 1st, so u will have a free month to sort things out. (i hope, if im wrong let me know as im banking on the 29th sep to be able to go for a month before getting sucked into this new garbage)

[beammeup]

I just try to figure out what the problem is. I bet a lot that all those Guy's who complain now about the new rules working or stay here more or less illegal.

It is the right of the Immigration to put the new rule in place and you can't blame them. There is no difference between Thailand, the US or Europe. If you don't have the right Visa, go out. If you work here get a work permit and if you don't have one, you illegal so go out.

If you stay here for a long time, get the correct Visa and everything is fine. If you can't afford the correct Visa or if you don't want go through the Visa Application whatsover, thats your personal problem.

Everyone who complain now about the rules should think about your Home country. If you stay in the US or Europe and the Immigration put a new law in place for all the people without proper Visa, I guess you would welcome this descision.

My personal Opinion is easy. If you wanna stay here, get the correct paper work and Visa together. If you can't or if you don't wan't to do that, well.....go elsewhere.

Thailand offer Visa for a lot of puposes, so it shoulnd't be any problem to get the correct Visa as long as you can proof why you would like to stay in Thailand.

well, i think people on both sides of this argument need to understand some of the situations involved.

on one side, there are people who seem to think they have a right to stay in thailand despite the fact that they're not thai citizens, and their attitude seems to be "how dare thailand treat me this way?" those same people seem to completely overlook the fact that there are some very unsavory foreigners living in thailand, and these rules will help thailand get rid of them.

on the other side, there are people who have been living here legally, by the rules, for many years. they have thai families and though they can get a "marriage visa" or "dependent visa," they havent' done so yet because they've never needed to. these aren't necessarily rich people, and they won't always be able to immediately make the bank deposit that they need to make... and if i were them, i'd personally feel very uncomfortable depositing into a thai bank... i'd feel much safer doing what most do... using a bank back in my home country and doing everything electronically. some of these people aren't in the country right now, and they can't return to see their families until they take care of this new mess. yes, every country changes its rules from time to time... but i'll tell you right now that your example of the US and UK isn't a perfect example: if a foreigner were living legally with his family in the USA, and his wife/children were US citizens, and the USA changed its rules, they wouldn't give him just a 15-day notice... he'd have YEARS to conform to the new rules before the US deported him, and likely he'd end up with full US citizenship long before he was deported.

there really are many aspects to this... it's not a simple "ha ha losers you deserved it... get your papers right or go home," nor is it a case that thailand has no right to do this or even that they're not doing something reasonable (i personally think the desire to reform their rules is a good idea, but that they've made many huge mistakes with their methodology that will hurt everybody, thai and foreigners).

I dont think its a case of being on one side of the fence or the other. many people are trying to get information on the current situation. some posters are very helpfull and it is appreciated, some others seem to be getting a hoot out of others misfortune. The people who are trying to gather information dont give a rats arse what anyone personnaly thinks about the situation!!! Its just more garbage to wade through to try and figure whats going on.

[Sunbelt Asia]

It appears that previous stamps will be counted from October 1. In many ways that's the real problem with this, not that it's being done but the lack of opportunity for people to organise 'the right way'.

I got an email from a reader of my site just now who went to talk with Immigration about it all at the main Immigration office Suan Plu. According to what they told him, the counting of 30 day stamps STARTS from October 1st.

They also stated that there would be no restriction on entering the country on tourist visas obtained from Thai embassies / consulates abroad.

Now of course they might have it wrong, or have told him worng or he may have misheard, but that is what was said.

Stick

Stick,

We heard the same this afternoon, that the immigration met late yesterday and now have decided as far as Oct 1st being the start. Even if you had a 30 day entry on Sept 30th with a exit of Oct 29th, it won't count against your quota.

HOWEVER, we have requested this in writing as it as just depends who you talk to at Immigration

Even then, let’s face it, it could be the officer’s discretion at the airport or border that will be the deciding rule.

If this is confirmed, it is good news as it gives more breathing room for the 30 day visa runners.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Thai-Spy]

It will be interesting to see exactly how the counting of stamps and days for persons arriving without visa is done. If it's a matter of Immigration inspectors examining every page of a passport then obviously you can expect very long delays at the entry ports. And obviously just as easy to circumvent the process by "losing" your passport and having it repleced with a new one.

If instead Thai Immigration attempts to put together a database, it will almost certainly turn into a full-fledged clusterf***. They cannot manage to keep their present criminal blacklists complete, accurate and up-to-date; there's no reason to expect them to do better with many tens or hundreds of times larger lists of names.

[drummer]

To be honest, nobody has the right to stay anywhere without the correct papers and if some think "I'm the rich Onkel from the US and I spend Money here so I can stay here", then I must say sorry, that's wrong.

Certainly true ... Thailand has the full right to immediately and unequivocally deport each and every foreigner regardless of business, family, years spent in the country, or even residency gained. It is their sovereign right and they can, in fact, do whatever they please.

However, there are certain motivaing factors to consider. Let me try my hand at each of them.

Protectionism, both as an economic consideration and a culturally conservative one is a comon and seemingly attractive option that just about every country i know of has employed from time to time... Including the US. CUrrently, there is a lot of hoopla concerning immigration issues in the US. IMHO, this largely revolves around the desire for a culturally uniform country. If you move to America, for example, many feel that you should become American culturally , etc. Not to mention speak English! An associated factor here is prejudice of various forms ... race, creed etc. (i.e. we only want whites or Protestants, etc etc. It happens by and against every aspect you can think of, somewhere)

Thailand is no exception, and a lot of Thais feel the same way. Playing up this desire has and does work for politicians across the globe. And locally, afterall, Thai Rak Thai (translates 'Thais Love Thais' or 'Thailand for Thais')

Beyond this, there is the cultural aspect that basically says "If you have a lot of merit built up, you will be rich in the next life" .... Those Thais and forewigners alike who just don't have loads of money were just rotten people in their last life, and are often not treated with the same respect as those who were born into money. While working your way to the top helps, it is not the same as being born into money. You might say that a contributing factor is the desire to get rid of all the criminals ... in other words the ones wiothout money. They are the ones without merit. (One of the reasons Thaksin was so readily accepted as a leader is his monetary and social position. He was obviously an amazingly pious and giving fellow in his last life, and his spirit deserves to be honored. Conversely, if you are poor, your bad spirit deserves to be treated badly. This is not exactly true, Buddistially speaking, but is in practice de facto, from what I have been able to tell)

Taxes This has been brought up as one of the main motivating factors for the new laws, and I'd lake to say something about it. But, for the sake of clarity, I'm trying to break it down into a couple of different facets:

(i) The bottom line: As far as the gov't is concerned, how much money they take in, grand total.

(ii) How much money flow into the gov't coffers based on how much money is out there, and how much money is moving around

(iii) The aspect of "fairness" ... is everyone paying "their fair share"? .

I feel that the concept of fairness is a big motivating fator here. Afterall, you have all these foreigners who live here and work here illegally. This is bad enough - they are disrespecting Thailand, but even worse they are in effect stealing from everyone who does pay taxes. They get the benefits the government provides but do not pay their own way.

(Disclaimer: I don't feel that I know enough to make informed commentary given the cultural differences, but I have an observation that I would like to make) This even-steven aspect is certainly more Western than Asian, but it is hard for me to understand that maybe this concept doesn't apply here, at least as a contributing factor, economically speaking.

However, a more practical approach and consideration is just exactly how much money does the government have? It would seem that if everyone pays taxes then the government would make more, full stop, but in reality it is a lot more complex than that. ESPECIALLY when you start taking people out of the country.

Lets think about how the people affected by this affect the economy, as far as taxes are concerned. Illegal workers make money. In the case of Thailand, the majority of the illegal workers are English teachers. I base this from personal experience. Sure, there are dive shops, business owners, entertainers (musicians, models, actors, commedians - I have met all of the above who have worked illegally), etc etc, by far most of the illegal workers I have encountered are English teachers. And most illegal English teachers, like all illegal workers, would LOVE to have work permits.

It is no secret that Thailand does not have enough English teachers, and the quality of them is low. This is in part due to the low salary (lower than Burma, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia...) but also due to the low enforcement of teacher requirements. While making each school actually get a work permit might affect the latter... i.e. presumably a school that actually bothers to get its ducks in a row will have the wits to get a better teacher. There can be little doubt that the total number of teachers in Thailand will significantly drop.

These are not positions that Thais can do, either. While Thais can teach Scuba, most dive shops would love to hire any Thai who wanted to, but they don't, for some reason. (beats me - sounds like fun to me!) Entertainers and other professions (including dive shops) generally make such a small percentage of total economic activity as to not affect the numbers one way or the other.

Business owners ... sure, there could be a Thai business that would have opened up if the farang hadn't opened up the bar. It *IS* possible. I am not sure what the story is with the Thai employees paying tax. Perhaps most of them make too little money to pay tax. But would this be different with a Thai owner? Perhaps, perhaps not, but, this aspect is a fairly moot pont. These numbers aren't going to directly affect the total income much. These are all very small businesses. If the business is big then it will have to get the proper documentation. No 2 ways about it. No way to avoind notice.

But a much bigger consideration as far as taxes go is how much money is moving around. The governement makes money when a transaction of some type takes place. Lets ignore how is and isn't paying taxes for a moment and think of it this way: The more things get bought the more money the government makes, in general. Your local farang shop owner or restaurant owner may be ducking taxes. (So might your local Thai) BUT, they are making and spending money and usually employing others. They are taking taxis, buying food, paying rent (or buying!) etc etc. The Taxi driver is doing the same thing, and without the farang there the taxi would be making a little less money, paying a little less tax. In addition, the house the farang is staying in gives money to the (Thai) landlord and drives up house prices making a lot of money for property owners and, consequently, the government. When everyone has more money, the government has more money. The more money that is out there translates into more money for the government, modified by tax rates. Full stop.

Another thing to consider here is that farang expats aren't sending the money the make out to support the folks back in Europe. Just about all of the money made illegally in Thailand stays in Thailand.

Sure, its better for the gov't to tax every step, but this is a case where its a case of a little or nothing. Also, busniess owners make jobs for others, either by direct employment or indirectly. i.e. how many farang does it take to employ 1 taxi driver? 1 real estate agent? 1 restaurant? etc. If you kick out all the illegally working farang how many people who sell things to them will lose their jobs?

Take Jack's Golf. While he is certainly legal, how many people does he employ, where did he buy his vehicles? How many people at the border work off of the people he brings through? What about everyone else?

Then there is another major consideration here. Most farang I know, like myself, make their money in at home and spend it here. While some may be working illegally (again, mostly teachers!) I'd wager that a VERY large percentage of them spend more money than they make, spending their savings from back home. The total amout of savings spent by illegally working expats is bound to be quite significant. Certainly in the millions of USD each year.

This is investment. This is more money in Thailand to be taxed by the Thai government. This is more money that goes into the pockets of Thais, great and small. Farang buy phone cards from Thaksin and noodles from Lek. If you make it problematic for people to come and spend their money, you will find less and less people doing it.

The current approach to strictly enforcing taxation, i.e. kicking out people, results in a loss of economic resources for Thailand, and less money coming into the Thai government.

Then of course, there are those expats who are NOT illegally working who are affected by this. Like me. I saved up a bunch of money from home and came out here. I recently worked, with a work permit for 5 months this year. Then I went without a job, spending my savings, until my next job started this month. Again with a work permit. Unfortunately for me, this job fell through at the last minute, so I am still on a Tourist Exemption. I have 3 now, as of today. (Just got back from Cambodia! boy was that fun) How much money from those of us essentially on really long vacations flows into the Thai economy? How many of us will be influenced to leave? I know I am.

I know I have options to stay, but since these options are increasingly dificult, expensive, unreliable and xenophobic I am planning to leave. Certainly it is Thailand perogative to make their laws any way they want. IMHO. And my perogative to take my economic resources elsewhere.

Of course, if Thailand were to institute a way to start gathering taxes from illegal workers, and not removing them from the economy all together, then Thailand would see MORE economic activity, MORE economic resources, MORE revenue for the government, and MORE money in the hands of Thai people, big and small. I would be a big supporter of such a policy, but this is not it.

Incidentally, I advocate the same approach in America.

Edited September 13, 2006 by drummer

[drummer]

dbl post

Edited September 13, 2006 by drummer