Israel reopens Gaza crossings

BKKBobby · June 9, 2015

When everything else fails mention Iran.

Next time write Hitler with capital letters, its more bang for the buck.

A stop of the Gaza sea blockade would have the result that ships can arrive and leave with goods and products all day everyday.

Were you under illusion rockets grew on trees? or did you need links with statements?
Yes ships could, if they were full of goods instead of rockets and ships with goods after inspections do arrive and go.

Next

Stop being silly.
Theres not ships full of goods and products arriving and leaving the way it would if Israel wasnt blocking Gaza from the sea.

There would be an enormous increase in ships arriving and leaving in Gaza.

Please stop posting nonsense.

Educate yourself just a little on the subject before posting more nonsense.

There is no trade in Gaza for ships to arrive.

The only ships arriving are either with aid or weapons

I was refering to that you what you mentioned.

The goods and products (aid) YOU said already could arrive in Gaza after Israeli inspection.

What I have been saying in several posts in this thread is that the Gaza sea blockade prevents ships to freely arrive and leave Gaza with goods and products - thus crippling Gaza.

konying · June 9, 2015

I was refering to that you what you mentioned.

The goods and products (aid) YOU said already could arrive in Gaza after Israeli inspection.

What I have been saying in several posts in this thread is that the Gaza sea blockade prevents ships to freely arrive and leave Gaza with goods and products - thus crippling Gaza.

OH i see, its the few days delays in arrivals that crippling Gaza, not the Hamas

Edited June 9, 2015 by konying

dexterm · June 9, 2015

Congratulations to Israel for ending the border closures. Lets hope this goodwill will continue, and they will gradually introduce measures to end their blockade completely to aid an sustainable economy in Gaza reducing unemployment ... fewer idle hands = less resentment = greater prosperity = less trouble.

BKKBobby · June 9, 2015

I was refering to that you what you mentioned.

The goods and products (aid) YOU said already could arrive in Gaza after Israeli inspection.

What I have been saying in several posts in this thread is that the Gaza sea blockade prevents ships to freely arrive and leave Gaza with goods and products - thus crippling Gaza.

OH i see, its the few days delays in arrivals that crippling Gaza, not the Hamas

Im not talking about aid.

Israel cripples Gaza because there is no free trade with Gaza.

konying · June 9, 2015

Congratulations to Israel for ending the border closures. Lets hope this goodwill will continue, and they will gradually introduce measures to end their blockade completely to aid an sustainable economy in Gaza reducing unemployment ... fewer idle hands = less resentment = greater prosperity = less trouble.

It was closed for few days due to rocket attacks

And just for a good read

Islamic terrorism sure is profitable: Hamas gets $5 billion in aid http://allenbwest.com/2014/10/islamic-terrorism-sure-profitable-hamas-gets-5-billion-aid-including-tax-dollars/

konying · June 9, 2015

I was refering to that you what you mentioned.

The goods and products (aid) YOU said already could arrive in Gaza after Israeli inspection.

What I have been saying in several posts in this thread is that the Gaza sea blockade prevents ships to freely arrive and leave Gaza with goods and products - thus crippling Gaza.

OH i see, its the few days delays in arrivals that crippling Gaza, not the Hamas

Im not talking about aid.

Israel cripples Gaza because there is no free trade with Gaza.

And that is Israels fault because weapons can not be traded freely, bad bad Israel, how dare they protect themselves.

Thorgal · June 9, 2015

When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea.

Much of the suffering in the Gaza region began in 1948 when Egypt began the extended refusal to integrate the Gazan's into the Egyptian economy and society when the population was relatively small. The isolation and suffering of Gaza began then and has continued to this day, exacerbated by both Egyptian policies and Israeli policies. TO claim that the Israeli blockade is somehow the problem and that the Egyptian blockades are not is simply illogical.
Of course the extended refusal to integrate the West Bank population into Jordan is far more difficult to rationalize as there are no differences between the population on the West Bank and those who live in Jordan. There are numerous cultural differences between Gazans and Egyptians ranging from cultural to linguistic differences. This also led to discrimination from the Egyptians towards the other non-Egyptian groups living in Sinai such as the Bedouin. Many Bedouin clans preferred to align with the Israelis rather than the Egyptians.

Gaza was invaded by Egypt in 1948, in order to protect it from Israeli forces unleashed by Plan Dalet and already active illegaly outside the area of Israel’s sovereignty before May 15th 1948. Arab nations started defending Israeli forces outside legal borders of Israel.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Egypt occupied as a regional power by agreement with Israel under the ’49/50 armistice agreement .

Like Jordan in the West Bank and the British before, they did not claim Gaza as their own, did not build illegal settlements, dispossess the Palestinian population, did not bulldoze homes, farms, orchards,....

Israel had all the crossings closed, under the 2005 agreement with Egypt, (only possible to have such an agreement as an Occupying Power), thereby preventing civilians from fleeing a war zone, BEFORE attacking, which is illegal under Geneva Convention : occupied territories, under art. 49 : The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

Important to tell that you can't put Egypt on the same line as Israel, if you have a closer look on the operational facts of each border crossing of Gaza :

1. Rafah (Al Awda) crossing : Egypt

Primarily a passenger crossing. Closed by the Egyptian authorities on October 2014, following an armed attack in the Sinai. Since then it opened a few times on an exceptional basis for "humanitarian cases".

2. Kerem Shalom (Karm Abu Salem) : Egypt/Israel

Commercial crossing for the entry and exit of goods through a "back to back" procedure. Operates five days a week. Requires authorization by, or coordination with Israeli authorities.

3. Sufa : Israel

Crossing point used for the transfer of some building materials into Gaza. Closed since September 2008.

4. Karni (Al Montar) : Israel

Commercial crossing for the entry and exit of goods through a "back to back" procedure. Closed since June 2007, except for a conveyor belt closed since March 2011.

5. Nahal Oz fuel pipeline : Israel

Closed since January 2010

6. Erez (Biet Hanoun) : Israel

Passenger crossing accessible only to permit holders, primarily medical and other humanitarian cases, merchants, and aid workers (permits issued by Israeli authorities). Opens six days a week

More detailed information of Gaza crossings from OCHA : UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs :

http://www.ochaopt.org/gazacrossing.aspx

OP didn't refer to Israeli borders who were closed for years...and euh, no need to include the Egyptians in these wrongdoings...

Bedouins prefer Israel above Egypt ? Please scroll YouTube to see many Bedouin legal housing/properties/cemeteries who have been bulldozed by IDF in the past before posting false favouritism...

http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/photos-israeli-authorities-destroy-bedouin-village-of-al-arakib/

Edited June 9, 2015 by Thorgal

JingerBen · June 10, 2015

Are you in the run for the dumbest post of the year?

No Hamas=no attacks=no need for blockade

Closing borders does NOT equal occupation, AGAIN, take it up with Egyptian brothers to open theirs.

Or is it easier to blame Israel because blaming brothers does not make for good headlines?

Crippling Gaza and thus the lives of all Gazans is collective punishment.
Theres no brothers in Egypt. Just as Im not a brother with every protestant Christian.

Israel is an aggressor, why not start a blockade on Israel? Started a war and made Gaza into rubbles over a handful of Israeli citizens, that must be the most disingenous pretext for war. Makes you wonder, were Israel just waiting for a reason to destroy infrastructure and set Gaza back a decade again, lets wait for next time...

Good points, and they relate to retaliatory violence.

When all else fails, blame the victims.

Zionist propaganda.

Your tax dollars at work.

ABCer · June 10, 2015

Quote: <snip> "Israelis are not inside Gaza but Gaza is occupied, sort of like a prison if you understand."

Quote: <snip> " Israel decides what goes in and out of Gaza, that sounds like a prison to me.

Israel cripples Gaza and then you have these racists bashing Gazans for not making their situation in life better. "

Quote: <snip> "Israel blocks access to Gaza from the sea.

Hamas or no Hamas, Israel cripples Gaza.

That is collective punishment. "

Quote: <snip> "When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea."

There is not much news in the above quoted <snips>.

I have seen many statements like this before.

However coming in succession AND in discussion of the same topic AND from the same poster indicates

a condition IMHO akin to short-circuit in the wires.

Numerous appeals by other posters "to self-educate" himself have been ignored.

Sad...

Pakboong · June 10, 2015

My favorite matter with regard to these border crossings between Gaza and Israel is when the Israeli issuing authority will not issue a pass to anyone who has had their house demolished or had a family member killed by the IDF. The number who cross legally is shrinking.

dexterm · June 10, 2015

Quote: <snip> "Israelis are not inside Gaza but Gaza is occupied, sort of like a prison if you understand."

Quote: <snip> " Israel decides what goes in and out of Gaza, that sounds like a prison to me.

Israel cripples Gaza and then you have these racists bashing Gazans for not making their situation in life better. "

Quote: <snip> "Israel blocks access to Gaza from the sea.

Hamas or no Hamas, Israel cripples Gaza.

That is collective punishment. "

Quote: <snip> "When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea."

There is not much news in the above quoted <snips>.

I have seen many statements like this before.

However coming in succession AND in discussion of the same topic AND from the same poster indicates

a condition IMHO akin to short-circuit in the wires.

Numerous appeals by other posters "to self-educate" himself have been ignored.

Sad...

It would be far more informative and interesting if you attempted to refute the valid points made above. Other than repeating them and saying I have seen statements like these before. I can't really see the point of your post.

Edited June 10, 2015 by dexterm

Thorgal · June 10, 2015

Yeah, bring in the lovers of "legality" squad in force!

Let me see, - a thief stole from another thief what has belonged to him not !

Those bloody thieving Jews stole back the land that Rome stole from them than Ottomans stole from Romans only to be robbed by British!

Come to think, British Isles should be returned to Papa as well, - if he claims the rights of the Empire long gone.

I wonder if the word "legal" itself doesn't go to Roman 'Legate' or, may be Legion?

I don't understand the meaning of this post too...can you please elaborate?

Seastallion · June 10, 2015

When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea.

Much of the suffering in the Gaza region began in 1948 when Egypt began the extended refusal to integrate the Gazan's into the Egyptian economy and society when the population was relatively small. The isolation and suffering of Gaza began then and has continued to this day, exacerbated by both Egyptian policies and Israeli policies. TO claim that the Israeli blockade is somehow the problem and that the Egyptian blockades are not is simply illogical.

(bold mine)

Are you quite certain that the Egyptian policy at Rafah has nothing to do with Egyptian-Israeli politics and that Israel does not insist on it?

konying · June 10, 2015

Are you in the run for the dumbest post of the year?

No Hamas=no attacks=no need for blockade

Closing borders does NOT equal occupation, AGAIN, take it up with Egyptian brothers to open theirs.

Or is it easier to blame Israel because blaming brothers does not make for good headlines?

Crippling Gaza and thus the lives of all Gazans is collective punishment.
Theres no brothers in Egypt. Just as Im not a brother with every protestant Christian.

Israel is an aggressor, why not start a blockade on Israel? Started a war and made Gaza into rubbles over a handful of Israeli citizens, that must be the most disingenous pretext for war. Makes you wonder, were Israel just waiting for a reason to destroy infrastructure and set Gaza back a decade again, lets wait for next time...

Good points, and they relate to retaliatory violence.

When all else fails, blame the victims.

Zionist propaganda.

Your tax dollars at work.

Oh arabs are good at playing victims. I am sure Osama also felt victimized

geriatrickid · June 10, 2015

Easy way to fix this. Israeli's get out of the areas of Gaza they have ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED.

What areas of Gaza are illegally occupied?

geriatrickid · June 10, 2015

When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea.

Much of the suffering in the Gaza region began in 1948 when Egypt began the extended refusal to integrate the Gazan's into the Egyptian economy and society when the population was relatively small. The isolation and suffering of Gaza began then and has continued to this day, exacerbated by both Egyptian policies and Israeli policies. TO claim that the Israeli blockade is somehow the problem and that the Egyptian blockades are not is simply illogical.

(bold mine)

Are you quite certain that the Egyptian policy at Rafah has nothing to do with Egyptian-Israeli politics and that Israel does not insist on it?

The Egyptians have their own issues with the Muslim Brotherhood ally, Hamas. Egypt is currently fighting jihadists in the Sinai and has no love for Gaza. Israel has no control over Egypt policy.

When Morsi, a strong advocate of Hamas and supporter of Islamic jihad was in power, the Gaza tunnel network expanded because the Gaza residents did not want to deal with issues such as customs or taxes or compliance with the non proliferation of weapons that was part of the return of Gaza. The tunnels expanded with the knowledge of Morsi's government.. Life did not improve for Gaza residents. The Egyptians who lived on the border with Gaza continued to exploit the Gaza residents and considered them to be thieves and barbarians.

So, why don't you provide a coherent answer in respect to the question? Why do you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

geriatrickid · June 10, 2015

Yeah, bring in the lovers of "legality" squad in force!

Let me see, - a thief stole from another thief what has belonged to him not !

Those bloody thieving Jews stole back the land that Rome stole from them than Ottomans stole from Romans only to be robbed by British!

Come to think, British Isles should be returned to Papa as well, - if he claims the rights of the Empire long gone.

I wonder if the word "legal" itself doesn't go to Roman 'Legate' or, may be Legion?

I don't understand the meaning of this post too...can you please elaborate?

No need. It is self evident.

ABCer · June 10, 2015

Quote: <snip> "Israelis are not inside Gaza but Gaza is occupied, sort of like a prison if you understand."

Quote: <snip> " Israel decides what goes in and out of Gaza, that sounds like a prison to me.

Israel cripples Gaza and then you have these racists bashing Gazans for not making their situation in life better. "

Quote: <snip> "Israel blocks access to Gaza from the sea.

Hamas or no Hamas, Israel cripples Gaza.

That is collective punishment. "

Quote: <snip> "When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea."

There is not much news in the above quoted <snips>.

I have seen many statements like this before.

However coming in succession AND in discussion of the same topic AND from the same poster indicates

a condition IMHO akin to short-circuit in the wires.

Numerous appeals by other posters "to self-educate" himself have been ignored.

Sad...

It would be far more informative and interesting if you attempted to refute the valid points made above. Other than repeating them and saying I have seen statements like these before. I can't really see the point of your post.

Yeah, bring in the lovers of "legality" squad in force!

Let me see, - a thief stole from another thief what has belonged to him not !

Those bloody thieving Jews stole back the land that Rome stole from them than Ottomans stole from Romans only to be robbed by British!

Come to think, British Isles should be returned to Papa as well, - if he claims the rights of the Empire long gone.

I wonder if the word "legal" itself doesn't go to Roman 'Legate' or, may be Legion?

I don't understand the meaning of this post too...can you please elaborate?

Dear friends.

On your request I think I should elaborate.

dexterm, - I thought bringing the above quotes together and emphasizing them in bold would help the reader to see how shallow, empty, biased and contradictory they are. Thus my reference to crossed wires.

Sorry if it didn't work for you, - must be my fault.

Thorgal, - I don't even know where to start. But it was obvious to me that any appeals against ILLEGALITY of Israeli grab of land in the region of Palestine known formerly as Judea or Israel are not holding water both

historically and legally. Or maybe you object to my attempted digging into the gnoceological roots of the term 'legal'? Now I don't understand what is it you do not understand?

Edited June 11, 2015 by ABCer

dexterm · June 11, 2015

Here's a very interesting article from the Guardian about the internal friction between Hamas and a handfull of Salafists in Gaza who identify themselves with IS, who actually fired the rockets.

Palestinian Salafists pose dangerous new problem for Hamas

"The conflict with the militant Salafists – totalling a few hundred at most – has led to a Hamas crackdown and, in reprisal, three rockets fired by the Salafists at Israel. This has in turn drawn air strikes in response, including against targets associated with Gaza’s ruling faction.

And it is the Salafists’ successful attempts to draw a military response from Israel that has escalated the problem in recent weeks from a local rivalry marked by a series of minor bombings to something more dangerous."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/10/gaza-salafists-problem-hamas-islamic-state-isis

Either Netanyahu is softening up world opinion for something outrageous, as he did last year with his infamous "Hamas is responsible" which prompted the Gaza war or he is pure mischief making, while sacrificing the safety of Israeli citizens.

If the Guardian journalist is aware of the internal wrangling between Hamas and Salafists, and who fired the rockets , and why they did so, just to set Hamas up for an Israeli response, I am sure Israeli intelligence is aware also.

You have got to ask yourself, why did Israel reward the IS brigade by doing exactly what they wanted...closing border crossings and attacking Hamas, who have actually been trying to stop rockets being fired honoring their side of the ceasefire.

Now that the Salafist blackmail [to get Hamas to release some of its members] has been successful thanks to Israel, they will probably do it again, and Israel will probably again disingenuously blame Hamas. I smell a rat.

Does Israel seriously want to halt rockets being fired at its citizens in southern Israel or not?

Edited June 11, 2015 by dexterm

Seastallion · June 11, 2015

When Israel blocks entry to Gaza from the sea the result is that Gaza becomes totally isolated and crippled.

That Egypt has blocked Gaza isnt the problem, the problem is that Gaza is blocked by Israel from the sea.

Much of the suffering in the Gaza region began in 1948 when Egypt began the extended refusal to integrate the Gazan's into the Egyptian economy and society when the population was relatively small. The isolation and suffering of Gaza began then and has continued to this day, exacerbated by both Egyptian policies and Israeli policies. TO claim that the Israeli blockade is somehow the problem and that the Egyptian blockades are not is simply illogical.

(bold mine)

Are you quite certain that the Egyptian policy at Rafah has nothing to do with Egyptian-Israeli politics and that Israel does not insist on it?

The Egyptians have their own issues with the Muslim Brotherhood ally, Hamas. Egypt is currently fighting jihadists in the Sinai and has no love for Gaza. Israel has no control over Egypt policy.

When Morsi, a strong advocate of Hamas and supporter of Islamic jihad was in power, the Gaza tunnel network expanded because the Gaza residents did not want to deal with issues such as customs or taxes or compliance with the non proliferation of weapons that was part of the return of Gaza. The tunnels expanded with the knowledge of Morsi's government.. Life did not improve for Gaza residents. The Egyptians who lived on the border with Gaza continued to exploit the Gaza residents and considered them to be thieves and barbarians.

So, why don't you provide a coherent answer in respect to the question? Why do you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

So, on the one hand you say the Morsi government endorsed Hamas, while on the other hand the Morsi government kept Rafah crossing closed because they dislike Hamas (and have not bent to Israli diplomatic pressures).

How can I answer the question? Take another look at it....it asks the member if he truly believes Israel has no political leverage upon Egypt to maintain the status quo at Rafah. I do not know what he believes. How about you, do you fully believe that there is no touch of Israeli-Egyptian politics in the Rafah policy?

Seastallion · June 11, 2015

Here's a very interesting article from the Guardian about the internal friction between Hamas and a handfull of Salafists in Gaza who identify themselves with IS, who actually fired the rockets.

Palestinian Salafists pose dangerous new problem for Hamas

"The conflict with the militant Salafists – totalling a few hundred at most – has led to a Hamas crackdown and, in reprisal, three rockets fired by the Salafists at Israel. This has in turn drawn air strikes in response, including against targets associated with Gaza’s ruling faction.

And it is the Salafists’ successful attempts to draw a military response from Israel that has escalated the problem in recent weeks from a local rivalry marked by a series of minor bombings to something more dangerous."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/10/gaza-salafists-problem-hamas-islamic-state-isis

Either Netanyahu is softening up world opinion for something outrageous, as he did last year with his infamous "Hamas is responsible" which prompted the Gaza war or he is pure mischief making, while sacrificing the safety of Israeli citizens.

If the Guardian journalist is aware of the internal wrangling between Hamas and Salafists, and who fired the rockets , and why they did so, just to set Hamas up for an Israeli response, I am sure Israeli intelligence is aware also.

You have got to ask yourself, why did Israel reward the IS brigade by doing exactly what they wanted...closing border crossings and attacking Hamas, who have actually been trying to stop rockets being fired honoring their side of the ceasefire.

Now that the Salafist blackmail [to get Hamas to release some of its members] has been successful thanks to Israel, they will probably do it again, and Israel will probably again disingenuously blame Hamas. I smell a rat.

Does Israel seriously want to halt rockets being fired at its citizens in southern Israel or not?

There is a theory floated on this forum, maybe not on this thread, that suggests that Israeli intelligence services are well-enough equipped in undercover agents to be able to have assisted those Salafists.

It's not a crazy idea, and it is certainly a possible theory. I don't quite subscribe to it as it is only a notion with no actual evidence.

geriatrickid · June 11, 2015

The Egyptians have their own issues with the Muslim Brotherhood ally, Hamas. Egypt is currently fighting jihadists in the Sinai and has no love for Gaza. Israel has no control over Egypt policy.

When Morsi, a strong advocate of Hamas and supporter of Islamic jihad was in power, the Gaza tunnel network expanded because the Gaza residents did not want to deal with issues such as customs or taxes or compliance with the non proliferation of weapons that was part of the return of Gaza. The tunnels expanded with the knowledge of Morsi's government.. Life did not improve for Gaza residents. The Egyptians who lived on the border with Gaza continued to exploit the Gaza residents and considered them to be thieves and barbarians.

So, why don't you provide a coherent answer in respect to the question? Why do you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

So, on the one hand you say the Morsi government endorsed Hamas, while on the other hand the Morsi government kept Rafah crossing closed because they dislike Hamas (and have not bent to Israli diplomatic pressures).

How can I answer the question? Take another look at it....it asks the member if he truly believes Israel has no political leverage upon Egypt to maintain the status quo at Rafah. I do not know what he believes. How about you, do you fully believe that there is no touch of Israeli-Egyptian politics in the Rafah policy?

You have selective reading comprehension.

I wrote that that when Morsi was in power, he backed his ally Hamas. I did not state that Morsi kept the Rafah crossing closed. That is your statement. Morsi was President of Egypt from 30 June 2012 – 3 July 2013. The border was open during that period. Because of past violent confrontations between Gaza residents and Egyptians, an open border was impossible. The reality is that the Gazans and Egyptians did not get along and despite Morsi's sentiments and pro Hamas activities, the Egyptians as a people didn't want the Gazans coming into Egypt. Are you even aware that there is a social hierarchy in the arab world, just as there is in Asia, Europe and the Americas? If you think Gaza arabs are interchangeable with Egyptians or Kuwaitis then you need to open your eyes.

Shortly after the successful popular uprising against Morsi and his attempt to impose sharia law and other policies of the muslim brotherhood on the Egyptian people, the new Egyptian government was attacked by Islamic militants based in the Sinai. Due to safety concerns, the Rafah border crossing was subject to a 4 hour operating period each day. Over the next month it became increasingly evident that militants based in Gaza were actively supporting Muslim Brotherhood associated attacks and civil unrest in Egypt. This forced Egypt to restrict the Rafah border crossing. Egypt had previously been attacked from Gaza. The massacre of 31 Egyptian personnel by terrorists based in Gaza last October, forced the Egyptians to completely shut down the border crossing. The Egyptians had no option because Hamas is opposed to the current Egyptian government.

None of this was Israel's doing. Israel does not control Egypt. Israel did not tell Hamas to murder 31 Egyptians. The Gazans accomplished this by themselves.

And I again ask why you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

geriatrickid · June 11, 2015

There is a theory floated on this forum, maybe not on this thread, that suggests that Israeli intelligence services are well-enough equipped in undercover agents to be able to have assisted those Salafists.

It's not a crazy idea, and it is certainly a possible theory. I don't quite subscribe to it as it is only a notion with no actual evidence.

It is not a theory. It is an intentional fabrication intended to distract and mislead people. The same type of person who claims that president Bush and Mossad were behind 9-11, or who claim that aliens have visited the local trailer park and probed their rectums. It is incredible that you and your pals have an obsessive need to blame Israel for anything and everything, even jihadist attacks and ISIS.

Seastallion · June 11, 2015

The Egyptians have their own issues with the Muslim Brotherhood ally, Hamas. Egypt is currently fighting jihadists in the Sinai and has no love for Gaza. Israel has no control over Egypt policy.

When Morsi, a strong advocate of Hamas and supporter of Islamic jihad was in power, the Gaza tunnel network expanded because the Gaza residents did not want to deal with issues such as customs or taxes or compliance with the non proliferation of weapons that was part of the return of Gaza. The tunnels expanded with the knowledge of Morsi's government.. Life did not improve for Gaza residents. The Egyptians who lived on the border with Gaza continued to exploit the Gaza residents and considered them to be thieves and barbarians.

So, why don't you provide a coherent answer in respect to the question? Why do you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

So, on the one hand you say the Morsi government endorsed Hamas, while on the other hand the Morsi government kept Rafah crossing closed because they dislike Hamas (and have not bent to Israli diplomatic pressures).

How can I answer the question? Take another look at it....it asks the member if he truly believes Israel has no political leverage upon Egypt to maintain the status quo at Rafah. I do not know what he believes. How about you, do you fully believe that there is no touch of Israeli-Egyptian politics in the Rafah policy?

.......................................

And I again ask why you and others continually blame Israel when the same issues exits on the Egyptian border?

I take it, then, that you do not believe Israel has any political involvement in Egyptian policy with regard to Rafah. I think you are wrong in that belief.

Israel is the subject of the OP...if I was to bring up Egypt, I would be straying off topic. Thus far I have only replied to Egypt-related posts with a question of what the member believes, and I probably should not have encouraged that off-topic diversion away from Israel's blockade of Gaza. As usual, Israeli apologists try to point to anywhere, as long as it is away from Israel.

dexterm · June 11, 2015

Here's a very interesting article from the Guardian about the internal friction between Hamas and a handfull of Salafists in Gaza who identify themselves with IS, who actually fired the rockets.

Palestinian Salafists pose dangerous new problem for Hamas

"The conflict with the militant Salafists – totalling a few hundred at most – has led to a Hamas crackdown and, in reprisal, three rockets fired by the Salafists at Israel. This has in turn drawn air strikes in response, including against targets associated with Gaza’s ruling faction.

And it is the Salafists’ successful attempts to draw a military response from Israel that has escalated the problem in recent weeks from a local rivalry marked by a series of minor bombings to something more dangerous."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/10/gaza-salafists-problem-hamas-islamic-state-isis

Either Netanyahu is softening up world opinion for something outrageous, as he did last year with his infamous "Hamas is responsible" which prompted the Gaza war or he is pure mischief making, while sacrificing the safety of Israeli citizens.

If the Guardian journalist is aware of the internal wrangling between Hamas and Salafists, and who fired the rockets , and why they did so, just to set Hamas up for an Israeli response, I am sure Israeli intelligence is aware also.

You have got to ask yourself, why did Israel reward the IS brigade by doing exactly what they wanted...closing border crossings and attacking Hamas, who have actually been trying to stop rockets being fired honoring their side of the ceasefire.

Now that the Salafist blackmail [to get Hamas to release some of its members] has been successful thanks to Israel, they will probably do it again, and Israel will probably again disingenuously blame Hamas. I smell a rat.

Does Israel seriously want to halt rockets being fired at its citizens in southern Israel or not?

There is a theory floated on this forum, maybe not on this thread, that suggests that Israeli intelligence services are well-enough equipped in undercover agents to be able to have assisted those Salafists.

It's not a crazy idea, and it is certainly a possible theory. I don't quite subscribe to it as it is only a notion with no actual evidence.

I would not go so far as Israel actively aiding the IS supporters who fired the rockets, but it is certainly in Israel's best political interests (not so sure Israeli residents near Gaza would agree) to foment trouble between Hamas and the Salafists.

Then if any rocket firing results Israel can simply muddy the waters again and falsely blame Hamas, drag out the cliche and hyperbole book and obfuscate with the mantra 15,000 rockets blah blah, giving them carte blanche to do whatever is really on their agenda.

But the fact is Netanyahu is telling lies when he blames Hamas, all the while knowing it was the Salafists who fired the rockets, their common enemy. One wonders what he is up to when he asks why is the world silent. I'm sure most foreign intelligence agencies would be advising their governments exactly who was to blame. But most of the general public don't read obscure articles in the Guardian, so if another Gaza war flares up all they will remember is "rockets fired at Israel."

Maybe that's why Netanyahu reopened the borders so quickly...he'd already achieved his besmirching goal.Job done.

Pakboong · June 11, 2015

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667138,00.html

Hamas is now pointing a finger at the Palestinian Authority for its efforts to destabilize Gaza.

Steely Dan · June 11, 2015

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667138,00.html

Hamas is now pointing a finger at the Palestinian Authority for its efforts to destabilize Gaza.

I think Hamas have their hands well and truly full seeing as ISIS are apparently infiltrating their organization and stealing munitions which they promptly fire at Israel. The Israelis recently even admitted Hamas were trying to stop this, albeit because they are fighting to save their own skins. Meanwhile a recent poll of Gazans found 63% believed the recent conflict with Israel was not worth it, not that they will ever get the chance to vote on it. Meanwhile sat safely in their armchairs many time zones away some of our esteemed members cheer Hamas on from the sidelines.

P.s regarding the allegations that the Palestinian authority are behind the violence this speaks volumes for the credibility of any so called ’Unity government' that Israel are supposed to negotiate with.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Steely Dan

dexterm · June 11, 2015

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667138,00.html

Hamas is now pointing a finger at the Palestinian Authority for its efforts to destabilize Gaza.

I think Hamas have their hands well and truly full seeing as ISIS are apparently infiltrating their organization and stealing munitions which they promptly fire at Israel. The Israelis recently even admitted Hamas were trying to stop this, albeit because they are fighting to save their own skins. Meanwhile a recent poll of Gazans found 63% believed the recent conflict with Israel was not worth it, not that they will ever get the chance to vote on it. Meanwhile sat safely in their armchairs many time zones away some of our esteemed members cheer Hamas on from the sidelines.
P.s regarding the allegations that the Palestinian authority are behind the violence this speaks volumes for the credibility of any so called ’Unity government' that Israel are supposed to negotiate with.

Lots of "claimed" "alleged" "purporting to be" in the linked ynet article...and yet the story does not appear in any more credible publications such as Haaretz, Independent or Guardian so far. I will wait to comment.

The last time PA and Hamas had a unity government recognized by Kerry and EU in 2014, the Palestinians were beginning to win the peace offensive so Israel provoked the Gaza War.

The best way for Israel to destroy Hamas or IS sympathizers is to make a just peace with the PA. Peace is all the majority of Palestinians and Israelis really want. It's the extremists on both sides who get in the way.

Steely Dan · June 11, 2015

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667138,00.html

Hamas is now pointing a finger at the Palestinian Authority for its efforts to destabilize Gaza.

I think Hamas have their hands well and truly full seeing as ISIS are apparently infiltrating their organization and stealing munitions which they promptly fire at Israel. The Israelis recently even admitted Hamas were trying to stop this, albeit because they are fighting to save their own skins. Meanwhile a recent poll of Gazans found 63% believed the recent conflict with Israel was not worth it, not that they will ever get the chance to vote on it. Meanwhile sat safely in their armchairs many time zones away some of our esteemed members cheer Hamas on from the sidelines.
P.s regarding the allegations that the Palestinian authority are behind the violence this speaks volumes for the credibility of any so called ’Unity government' that Israel are supposed to negotiate with.

Lots of "claimed" "alleged" "purporting to be" in the linked ynet article...and yet the story does not appear in any more credible publications such as Haaretz, Independent or Guardian so far. I will wait to comment.

The last time PA and Hamas had a unity government recognized by Kerry and EU in 2014, the Palestinians were beginning to win the peace offensive so Israel provoked the Gaza War.

The best way for Israel to destroy Hamas or IS sympathizers is to make a just peace with the PA. Peace is all the majority of Palestinians and Israelis really want. It's the extremists on both sides who get in the way.

Ynet news is the English language arm of Israel's most popular newspaper. The left wing Haaretz who you characterize as creditable has a tiny fringe readership by comparison.

P.s it's funny to see the King of conjecture object to the conjecture of others.

dexterm · June 11, 2015

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667138,00.html

Hamas is now pointing a finger at the Palestinian Authority for its efforts to destabilize Gaza.

I think Hamas have their hands well and truly full seeing as ISIS are apparently infiltrating their organization and stealing munitions which they promptly fire at Israel. The Israelis recently even admitted Hamas were trying to stop this, albeit because they are fighting to save their own skins. Meanwhile a recent poll of Gazans found 63% believed the recent conflict with Israel was not worth it, not that they will ever get the chance to vote on it. Meanwhile sat safely in their armchairs many time zones away some of our esteemed members cheer Hamas on from the sidelines.
P.s regarding the allegations that the Palestinian authority are behind the violence this speaks volumes for the credibility of any so called ’Unity government' that Israel are supposed to negotiate with.

Lots of "claimed" "alleged" "purporting to be" in the linked ynet article...and yet the story does not appear in any more credible publications such as Haaretz, Independent or Guardian so far. I will wait to comment.

The last time PA and Hamas had a unity government recognized by Kerry and EU in 2014, the Palestinians were beginning to win the peace offensive so Israel provoked the Gaza War.

The best way for Israel to destroy Hamas or IS sympathizers is to make a just peace with the PA. Peace is all the majority of Palestinians and Israelis really want. It's the extremists on both sides who get in the way.

Ynet news is the English language arm of Israel's most popular newspaper. The left wing Haaretz who you characterize as creditable has a tiny fringe readership by comparison.

P.s it's funny to see the King of conjecture object to the conjecture of others.

"Popular" does not necessarily mean "credible". Fox News is very popular.

I will wait until the article has the imprimatur of more respected publications such as Haaretz...Israel's oldest newspaper.

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