Families: No justice in Israeli inquiry on Gaza beach deaths

[Lite Beer]

Families: No justice in Israeli inquiry on Gaza beach deaths
FARES AKRAM, Associated Press

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The father of one of four Palestinian children killed on a Gaza beach during last summer's Hamas-Israel war said Friday he was outraged by the announcement from the Israeli military that it was closing its internal inquiry into the incident without any indictments.

The father also said he hopes the killings would be part of a Palestinian war crimes case against Israel, which is expected to be presented to the International Criminal Court.

"There is no justice in the internal investigation," Mohammed Bakr told The Associated Press. "We are counting on the ICC and human rights. We are not afraid and we are confident we will win because the world is with us."

Israel has, in the past, pointed to the credibility of its internal investigations as proof that the involvement of the ICC was unnecessary.

Palestinians say the Israeli justice system is biased against them and complain the army rarely charges its soldiers with wrongdoing. The army's closure of the probe, announced in a statement late Thursday, is likely to feed those perceptions.

The four boys, all cousins aged 9 to 11, were killed while playing on a beach off a coastal road west of Gaza City during the war last summer. Seven others — adults and children — were wounded in the same airstrike. The incident drew international attention and condemnation.

Thursday's military statement was released late at night — something the Israeli military has done in the past when announcing the closure of similar investigations. The military said the boys' deaths were a tragic accident, caused when it mistook them for Hamas gunmen. It concluded that no international or Israeli laws of engagement were broken in the incident.

Military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said the announcement followed an extensive investigation by the military police, which questioned many soldiers involved in the planning and implementation of the strike.

He said on Facebook that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants." Aerial surveillance identified several figures, believed to be Hamas militants, enter a compound there.

"It should be stressed that the figures were not identified at any point during the incident, as children," Lerner said.

Witnesses at the time said a pair of Israeli airstrikes hit the beach. The first strike hit a container on a nearby jetty and the second struck the children as they were running away from the first strike.

Lerner called the children's death "tragic" and said that steps are being taken to "minimize the risk" of a similar incident happening again.

The war last summer killed more than 2,200 Palestinians while 73 people died on the Israeli side.

Hamas fired thousands of rockets at Israeli population centers and heavily armed Gaza militants tunneled into Israel for attacks during the 50-day war. Israel used airstrikes from jets, helicopters and drones as well as thousands of artillery rounds.

The military's announcement comes as Israel braces itself for an upcoming report on last summer's war by a United Nations commission.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-06-12

[Jingthing]

Here is the report:

https://www.facebook.com/Lt.Col.PeterLerner/posts/977554298952196:0

[ezzra]

By justice they mean money... give them money and all will be forgotten, beside, the world has

already have prosecuted Israel, judged it, and found it guilty on the stage of world's opinions...

so no matter what Israel will find, do or say, it's already guilty of any and all crimes imaginative,

[Seastallion]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

[Seastallion]

So, were the children on the beach, as claimed by the journalists, or in the fenced off Hamas compound as claimed by the IDF?

Were they playing soccer, or running from the bombed shed/container as claimed by the IDF?

Edited June 13, 2015 by Seastallion

[dexterm]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

and there were foreign reporters across the road in a journalists' hotel who witnessed the whole thing.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/witness-gaza-shelling-first-hand-account

[Seastallion]

Here is the report:

https://www.facebook.com/Lt.Col.PeterLerner/posts/977554298952196:0

To defend their stance that they committed no crimes, I hope they release the videos and audio recordings from the strike aircraft. That could clear the matter of whether in wrongdoing occurred or not.

[RustBucket]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

Actually it is an age old strategy for Hamas to use elderly, women and children as human shields and to deliberately fire from mosques, schools and hospitals. The true enemy of the Palestinians is Hamas, always has been and always will be.

It is reports like this and the debate that comes from them that is exactly the outcome Hamas does this for. To get the bleeding hearts all up in arms. If the Palestinian people crushed Hamas and Hezbolah, they could have peace tomorrow.

Edited June 13, 2015 by RustBucket

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed. Please confine your comments to the topic and not your opinion of other posters.

[Steely Dan]

Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the report stated after the disgusting tendentious reporting by some of the media, the Guardian being about the worst culprit. If people are spoon fed the story that the Israelis deliberately and knowingly tried to kill the children then their 'judgement' is based on this not on material fact.

Edit: I see someone had linked to the original Guardian report. The Guardian's bias and pure naked hatred of Israel is so well established there is even an organization called Cifwatch, which reports on their many lies and distortions. Then there's UKmedia watch which has something to say about the very incident.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/12/important-update-from-ltcpeterlerner-on-military-advocate-general-report-on-gaza-beach-incident/

Edited June 13, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Linky]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

Actually it is an age old strategy for Hamas to use elderly, women and children as human shields and to deliberately fire from mosques, schools and hospitals. The true enemy of the Palestinians is Hamas, always has been and always will be.

It is reports like this and the debate that comes from them that is exactly the outcome Hamas does this for. To get the bleeding hearts all up in arms. If the Palestinian people crushed Hamas and Hezbolah, they could have peace tomorrow.

What has that to do with the report.

It is stated the area was EXCLUSIVELY used by Hamas. That is patently false and a lie, proven by the fact there were children there.

[Steely Dan]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

Actually it is an age old strategy for Hamas to use elderly, women and children as human shields and to deliberately fire from mosques, schools and hospitals. The true enemy of the Palestinians is Hamas, always has been and always will be.

It is reports like this and the debate that comes from them that is exactly the outcome Hamas does this for. To get the bleeding hearts all up in arms. If the Palestinian people crushed Hamas and Hezbolah, they could have peace tomorrow.

What has that to do with the report.

It is stated the area was EXCLUSIVELY used by Hamas. That is patently false and a lie, proven by the fact there were children there.

I saw children skateboarding inside the perimeter fence at Luang Prabang airport once. I guess the area is not exclusively used by planes taking off and landing.

[Thorgal]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

Actually it is an age old strategy for Hamas to use elderly, women and children as human shields and to deliberately fire from mosques, schools and hospitals. The true enemy of the Palestinians is Hamas, always has been and always will be.

It is reports like this and the debate that comes from them that is exactly the outcome Hamas does this for. To get the bleeding hearts all up in arms. If the Palestinian people crushed Hamas and Hezbolah, they could have peace tomorrow.

The 4 children had to flee after the first strike on a small building. Not,shure if the shot was fired from sea...or from air...

The second strike was again a precise bombing on the 4 children when they were running off the beach in order to protect themselves.

Your 'human shield' theory doesn't work in this case because the children were fleeing the scene.

Furthermore, the children have nothing to do with Hamas and or Hezbollah, whatsoever...

The fatal precision shells used in the attack were controlled from a high precision GPS target grid with high detailed imagery technology. The targets were clearly defined and visioned as escaping children. No IDF F-16's were heard before the 2 impacts. More likely a drone was used in the fatal shelling and the video and sound recordings will never be released.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Thorgal

[Seastallion]

Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the report stated after the disgusting tendentious reporting by some of the media, the Guardian being about the worst culprit. If people are spoon fed the story that the Israelis deliberately and knowingly tried to kill the children then their 'judgement' is based on this not on material fact.

Edit: I see someone had linked to the original Guardian report. The Guardian's bias and pure naked hatred of Israel is so well established there is even an organization called Cifwatch, which reports on their many lies and distortions. Then there's UKmedia watch which has something to say about the very incident.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/12/important-update-from-ltcpeterlerner-on-military-advocate-general-report-on-gaza-beach-incident/

You've linked to a report on what JT linked to: The Facebook release of the report. So, what was it that UKmediaWatch had to say about the Guardian report?

The interesting thing was the first comment;

"I just saw the vicious and malicious headline in the Guardian about this report. Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of 4 children.

I did not read the article. I couldn’t bring myself to. Even if the article is balanced the headline is so tendentious that any “passing traffic” reader will immediately understand that Israel cannot be relied upon to investigate its army’s possible errors. The headline implies that Israel casually dismisses any war-crimes charges, not reflecting the serious investigation undertaken by the IDF."

A reflection on the readership, perhaps? An accurate headline (because Israel has indeed exonerated itself) is labelled "vicious and malicious" and the poster could bear to read any further saying the headline is tendentious "even if the article is balanced". LOL.

The Jerusalem Post's headline (which UKMediawatch links too (some relationship there, perhaps)) paraphrases The Guardian; "IDF Clears Soldiers...", Malicious and vicious?

[simple1]

From the OP:

"The military said the boys' deaths were a tragic accident, caused when it mistook them for Hamas gunmen"

Putting aside differing POVs on the incident does anyone know if the children's parents received a formal apology & compensation?

[Steely Dan]

Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the report stated after the disgusting tendentious reporting by some of the media, the Guardian being about the worst culprit. If people are spoon fed the story that the Israelis deliberately and knowingly tried to kill the children then their 'judgement' is based on this not on material fact.

Edit: I see someone had linked to the original Guardian report. The Guardian's bias and pure naked hatred of Israel is so well established there is even an organization called Cifwatch, which reports on their many lies and distortions. Then there's UKmedia watch which has something to say about the very incident.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/12/important-update-from-ltcpeterlerner-on-military-advocate-general-report-on-gaza-beach-incident/

You've linked to a report on what JT linked to: The Facebook release of the report. So, what was it that UKmediaWatch had to say about the Guardian report?

The interesting thing was the first comment;

"I just saw the vicious and malicious headline in the Guardian about this report. Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of 4 children.

I did not read the article. I couldn’t bring myself to. Even if the article is balanced the headline is so tendentious that any “passing traffic” reader will immediately understand that Israel cannot be relied upon to investigate its army’s possible errors. The headline implies that Israel casually dismisses any war-crimes charges, not reflecting the serious investigation undertaken by the IDF."

A reflection on the readership, perhaps? An accurate headline (because Israel has indeed exonerated itself) is labelled "vicious and malicious" and the poster could bear to read any further saying the headline is tendentious "even if the article is balanced". LOL.

The Jerusalem Post's headline (which UKMediawatch links too (some relationship there, perhaps)) paraphrases The Guardian; "IDF Clears Soldiers...", Malicious and vicious?

I think dismissing the press out of hand for their bias is totally understandable. Likewise I can hardly bring myself to persist in refuting the lies and hatred from some of our esteemed members.

The whole issue boils down to whether it can be demonstrated that the Israelis knew it was children that they were targeting. The press had as per usual made their mind up from day one. Here is RTE's retraction for using the word murder to describe the incident.

http://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-beach-rte-complaint-1840070-Dec2014/

The latest Guardian headline on the issue is Israel exonerates itself. This intentionally gives the impression that Israel can't be trusted to carry out such an investigation, Hamas never are expected to investigate anything. The headline also smacks of collective guilt. Little wonder the west is rudderless and experiencing moral decay by leftists enabling the mass immigration from a hostile and backward culture, who demand the media reflect their 'values'.

[dexterm]

Nothing is greater than a parents' love for their children. To have their innocent children murdered by the IDF while they were playing football on the beach is obscene.

Then to have the Israelis who pulled the trigger saying we are not to blame, just adds insult to the injury. No-one is brought to account let alone justice for this crime.

No wonder the Palestinians must resort to the ICC if they have any hope of discovering the truth.

[dexterm]

Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the report stated after the disgusting tendentious reporting by some of the media, the Guardian being about the worst culprit. If people are spoon fed the story that the Israelis deliberately and knowingly tried to kill the children then their 'judgement' is based on this not on material fact.

Edit: I see someone had linked to the original Guardian report. The Guardian's bias and pure naked hatred of Israel is so well established there is even an organization called Cifwatch, which reports on their many lies and distortions. Then there's UKmedia watch which has something to say about the very incident.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/12/important-update-from-ltcpeterlerner-on-military-advocate-general-report-on-gaza-beach-incident/

You've linked to a report on what JT linked to: The Facebook release of the report. So, what was it that UKmediaWatch had to say about the Guardian report?

The interesting thing was the first comment;

"I just saw the vicious and malicious headline in the Guardian about this report. Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of 4 children.

I did not read the article. I couldn’t bring myself to. Even if the article is balanced the headline is so tendentious that any “passing traffic” reader will immediately understand that Israel cannot be relied upon to investigate its army’s possible errors. The headline implies that Israel casually dismisses any war-crimes charges, not reflecting the serious investigation undertaken by the IDF."

A reflection on the readership, perhaps? An accurate headline (because Israel has indeed exonerated itself) is labelled "vicious and malicious" and the poster could bear to read any further saying the headline is tendentious "even if the article is balanced". LOL.

The Jerusalem Post's headline (which UKMediawatch links too (some relationship there, perhaps)) paraphrases The Guardian; "IDF Clears Soldiers...", Malicious and vicious?

I think dismissing the press out of hand for their bias is totally understandable. Likewise I can hardly bring myself to persist in refuting the lies and hatred from some of our esteemed members.

The whole issue boils down to whether it can be demonstrated that the Israelis knew it was children that they were targeting. The press had as per usual made their mind up from day one. Here is RTE's retraction for using the word murder to describe the incident.

http://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-beach-rte-complaint-1840070-Dec2014/

The latest Guardian headline on the issue is Israel exonerates itself. This intentionally gives the impression that Israel can't be trusted to carry out such an investigation, Hamas never are expected to investigate anything. The headline also smacks of collective guilt. Little wonder the west is rudderless and experiencing moral decay by leftists enabling the mass immigration from a hostile and backward culture, who demand the media reflect their 'values'.

"The latest Guardian headline on the issue is Israel exonerates itself. This intentionally gives the impression that Israel can't be trusted to carry out such an investigation"

hear hear.

That's because The Guardian, one of UK's oldest and most respected newspapers founded 1821 and named newspaper of the year at the 2014 British Press Awards, is telling the truth.

If Israel really wants to reveal the truth to the world, rather than a whitewash, it should seek an independent inquiry.

[Lissos]

Furthermore, the children have nothing to do with Hamas and or Hezbollah, whatsoever...

Oh dear, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamic there.

Even if the children didn't think so, as far as Hanmas, Islamic Jihad and others are concerned the local children have 'everything' to do with the "resistance". It is not optional, as far as they are concerned. It manifests in various ways, some overtly, some behind the scenes insidiously in the school text books etc.

To paraphrase British politicians - " we're all in this together ".

[Seastallion]

If Israel wants exoneration, it should release the video and audio of the attacks. It should release audio of the operation.

Very simple, really.

We've seen operation videos released by the IDF before......when it has nothing to hide. So citing "security reasons" or some such is not credible.

[Linky]

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

Actually it is an age old strategy for Hamas to use elderly, women and children as human shields and to deliberately fire from mosques, schools and hospitals. The true enemy of the Palestinians is Hamas, always has been and always will be.

It is reports like this and the debate that comes from them that is exactly the outcome Hamas does this for. To get the bleeding hearts all up in arms. If the Palestinian people crushed Hamas and Hezbolah, they could have peace tomorrow.

What has that to do with the report.

It is stated the area was EXCLUSIVELY used by Hamas. That is patently false and a lie, proven by the fact there were children there.

I saw children skateboarding inside the perimeter fence at Luang Prabang airport once. I guess the area is not exclusively used by planes taking off and landing.

What else lands there? I will give you a hint, the children werent planes and planes aren't human.

So as children were playing there it is a lie to say it was exclusively used by Hamas, because Hamas were not the only people there.

Didnt realise you could be that dense not to understand.

[EnglishJohn]

Truly tragic - this is the brutal reality. A lot of people sat in their armchairs have no idea what it really means.

We can only cry about this because we have pictures. Much worse events will have happened many times which nobody will ever hear about.

But is this a reason to stop fighting terrorists ?. These scumbags deliberately surround themselves with children and set their headquarters amongst civilians so that if any get attacked, they will have pictures to like this to show.

Who are the murderers ?.

Do people think these terrorists would pause for 1 second if they could put a shell in an Israeli schoolyard ?. Killing them at source is the only way to stop them doing it.

This is all very sad, but intelligent people must have perspective on things like this. The dumbass armchair liberals can just react to what the press put under their noses, but they go very quite when the terrible consequences of what they advocated come to pass.

[Linky]

Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the report stated after the disgusting tendentious reporting by some of the media, the Guardian being about the worst culprit. If people are spoon fed the story that the Israelis deliberately and knowingly tried to kill the children then their 'judgement' is based on this not on material fact.

Edit: I see someone had linked to the original Guardian report. The Guardian's bias and pure naked hatred of Israel is so well established there is even an organization called Cifwatch, which reports on their many lies and distortions. Then there's UKmedia watch which has something to say about the very incident.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/12/important-update-from-ltcpeterlerner-on-military-advocate-general-report-on-gaza-beach-incident/

You've linked to a report on what JT linked to: The Facebook release of the report. So, what was it that UKmediaWatch had to say about the Guardian report?

The interesting thing was the first comment;

"I just saw the vicious and malicious headline in the Guardian about this report. Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of 4 children.

I did not read the article. I couldnt bring myself to. Even if the article is balanced the headline is so tendentious that any passing traffic reader will immediately understand that Israel cannot be relied upon to investigate its armys possible errors. The headline implies that Israel casually dismisses any war-crimes charges, not reflecting the serious investigation undertaken by the IDF."

A reflection on the readership, perhaps? An accurate headline (because Israel has indeed exonerated itself) is labelled "vicious and malicious" and the poster could bear to read any further saying the headline is tendentious "even if the article is balanced". LOL.

The Jerusalem Post's headline (which UKMediawatch links too (some relationship there, perhaps)) paraphrases The Guardian; "IDF Clears Soldiers...", Malicious and vicious?

I think dismissing the press out of hand for their bias is totally understandable. Likewise I can hardly bring myself to persist in refuting the lies and hatred from some of our esteemed members.

The whole issue boils down to whether it can be demonstrated that the Israelis knew it was children that they were targeting. The press had as per usual made their mind up from day one. Here is RTE's retraction for using the word murder to describe the incident.

http://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-beach-rte-complaint-1840070-Dec2014/

The latest Guardian headline on the issue is Israel exonerates itself. This intentionally gives the impression that Israel can't be trusted to carry out such an investigation, Hamas never are expected to investigate anything. The headline also smacks of collective guilt. Little wonder the west is rudderless and experiencing moral decay by leftists enabling the mass immigration from a hostile and backward culture, who demand the media reflect their 'values'.

No the issue is not whether they knew they were children. The issue is why was anyone bombed when Israel was obviously not even sure they were Hamas.

So basically they saw people there and bombed them without knowing who was being bombed and just hoped it was Hamas.

That is just outright blatant murder.

[Jingthing]

Who's being dense.

I think the gist of this is that Israel knew that was a military zone and the people in Gaza knew it was a military zone but tragically those children went into that zone at the wrong time and being children may not have known anything. Tragic things like that happen in wars.

In any case, Israel had and has every right to defend itself from Hamas aggression and it is true Gaza children are indoctrinated in radical Jihadist and Judeophobic ideology from an early age and tragically some are intentionally used as human shields or as combatants, or sacrificed in tunnel building, but that doesn't mean those young children were active combatants at that time, or ever.

Should Israel compensate for deaths of non-combatants?

I suppose that's a fair thing to ask of them.

Naturally the parents can't ever be expected to forgive or forget about this.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

Furthermore, the children have nothing to do with Hamas and or Hezbollah, whatsoever...

Oh dear, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamic there.

Even if the children didn't think so, as far as Hanmas, Islamic Jihad and others are concerned the local children have 'everything' to do with the "resistance". It is not optional, as far as they are concerned. It manifests in various ways, some overtly, some behind the scenes insidiously in the school text books etc.

To paraphrase British politicians - " we're all in this together ".

So you are saying all children in any war zone are fair game. I vehemently disagree with your attempt at dehumanization.

That thesis would justify the killing of Israeli children too because Hamas dislike their parents' politics.

Innocent children are innocent children the world over. Anyone who deliberately kills or harms a child is a terrorist.

[dexterm]

Who's being dense.

I think the gist of this is that Israel knew that was a military zone and the people in Gaza knew it was a military zone but tragically those children went into that zone at the wrong time and being children may not have known anything. Tragic things like that happen in wars.

In any case, Israel had and has every right to defend itself from Hamas aggression and it is true Gaza children are indoctrinated in radical Jihadist and Judeophobic ideology from an early age and tragically some are intentionally used as human shields or as combatants, or sacrificed in tunnel building, but that doesn't mean those young children were active combatants at that time, or ever.

Should Israel compensate for deaths of non-combatants?

I suppose that's a fair thing to ask of them.

Naturally the parents can't ever be expected to forgive or forget about this.

The whole of Gaza was a military zone as far as Israel was concerned...an area the size of Detroit with all the exits blocked and even UN shelters with GPS co-ordinates given to the IDF multiple times were fair game.

It gives credence to evidence given by courageous IDF soldiers who revealed the truth in their Breaking the Silence testimonials that orders had come from on high....if it moves, shoot it.

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf

[Steely Dan]

The moral outrage of some of our esteemed members would seem a tad more believable, not to mention less hypocritical if it were ever directed at Hamas, who were responsible for the deaths of 160 Palestinian children who were forced to dig tunnels under the Israeli border in order to mount terrorist attacks. Without proof of Israeli knowledge that they were not targeting Hamas operatives your shouts of 'murder' are nothing more than blood libel, I wonder whether the press started this or merely repeated it?

[Jingthing]

The moral outrage of some of our esteemed members would seem a tad more believable, not to mention less hypocritical if it were ever directed at Hamas, who were responsible for the deaths of 160 Palestinian children who were forced to dig tunnels under the Israeli border in order to mount terrorist attacks. Without proof of Israeli knowledge that they were not targeting Hamas operatives your shouts of 'murder' are nothing more than blood libel, I wonder whether the press started this or merely repeated it?

Yes, indeed.

My understanding from reading some objective reporting is that when you talk to Gaza people when they know their names won't be revealed to Hamas, they typically put the blame for their lousy situation on Hamas, Abbas, and Israel ... and sometimes only Hamas.

The Israel demonization obsessives are only interested in one sided anti-Israel propaganda.

Obviously, the tragic deaths of those kids on the beach is a home run for such propagandists.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Wat dee]

So, were the children on the beach, as claimed by the journalists, or in the fenced off Hamas compound as claimed by the IDF?

Were they playing soccer, or running from the bombed shed/container as claimed by the IDF?

And earlier some of the journalists actually played with the kids!

[Seastallion]

The moral outrage of some of our esteemed members would seem a tad more believable, not to mention less hypocritical if it were ever directed at Hamas, who were responsible for the deaths of 160 Palestinian children who were forced to dig tunnels under the Israeli border in order to mount terrorist attacks. Without proof of Israeli knowledge that they were not targeting Hamas operatives your shouts of 'murder' are nothing more than blood libel, I wonder whether the press started this or merely repeated it?

That would be off topic and we all knows what happens if we stray off topic.