AA 12 steps: Finding God

[Neeranam]

So I have been going along to AA. Something I have a bit of trouble with is the whole spirituality thing.

Welcome to the club. I've been in AA for 39 years now and have never gotten the "god" thing. As long as you really want to quit drinking and keep working on it it'll be OK.

If you're looking for a church I'm surprised that nobody in your AA group knows of one. Do you know Wittayu Road, where the U.S. embassy is? Coming from Sukhumvit Road past the embassy to the next red light, that's Soi Ruamrudee on your left. Turn left. Straight ahead you will see a tall one-story white building. This is Wat Maha Tai. It's a Roman Catholic church. To one side, across a small soi, is the building where the priests live. On the first floor (ground floor) are offices, a reception desk, and a conference room where AA meetings are held, or used to be. I've lived up country for several years now and don't know if the group still meets there or not. I think the priests say mass in English sometimes, but I'm not Catholic so never really paid attention.

As for the "god" thing, I believe that it is not possible to decide through reason whether there is a god or not. Didn't matter in my recovery. In one of the essays in the collection, The Twelve and Twelve, Bill's essays on the twelve steps and the twelve traditions, he said at one point (I think it was the essay on the Third Step) to just drop out of the debating society. Give it a try. Don't reject it out of hand. See if it works. I was told often in the early days that if I wasn't satisfied they'd give me a complete refund of my misery. I tried it. It worked for me. I even tried praying regularly. Why not? It doesn't cost me anything except a little time. I was skeptical because some of it can sound very cult-like if you treat it too seriously. I found my life was a lot better without alcohol. I also found that when I listened to the people in the rooms talking about their problems I learned how to solve some of my own problems. I found a better attitude than I had grown up with. My life got better again.

If somebody tells you you're doing it wrong, listen politely, remember what he said, and talk it over with your friends. I never succeeded in completing a Fourth Step of any of the Steps that depend on it. I used to try doing a Tenth Step, reviewing my day, whenever I remembered. I did manage to maintain a habit of thanking a Higher Power, which may or may not be a real Thing, for good things that happened to be every day.

Some of us are sicker trhan others. Keep coming back.

It is by doing the steps that one gets a "spiritual awakening". You can't do the 12th step properly if you don't do the previous 11. You are missing out on a wonderful experience.

[Neeranam]

In the 90s, I went to Suan Mokh, near Surat Thani for a 10 day retreat in the forest where there is no speaking - wonderful experience.

http://www.suanmokkh-idh.org/

[big carl]

I myself was raised Catholic. When I joined AA those many years ago I had already done step 1

All I had to do to complete it was admit I needed help I couldn't do it alone. That is what I did when

I became a part of the we the first word in the program of recovery. Step 2 asked me to believe

a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. It did not and does not insult are intelligence

by saying come to believe in a power greater than are selves. If I believed there was no power

greater than me I would have offed myself Step 3 said God and I was mystified as to what he

had to do with it. Never the less I did it. As the years have passed I have come to understand

makes no difference what I believed God was all I had to do was let him do it.

Good news for me or I would have been dead in a year or so.

I know one person was talking about using Satan.

Today my definition of God is far removed from what I had when I came in. A lot of people refuse

to use the word God they say higher power. Others say something. Makes no difference to me

they are just playing the name game. I have not been to church in 30 years. For some reason

every one thinks spirituality means just God. For myself it is how I interact with others. I know that

God be it He/She/or it will send me what I need. I also know I often figure I know better and send

it back. The one thing I never return is the thought and the power that I never have to drink or use

drugs again. That was not my thinking it was given to me. I let God handle my thinking in that

respect. For you see when I entered the fellowship I had to do those things and I knew it.

I would also like to draw your attention to the part in how it works right after the 12 steps.

It says what an order I can't go through with it.

Do not be discouraged none of us were able to maintain any thing like perfect

adherence to these principals.

Also at the end it says

C God could and would if he were sought.

It does not say found if he were found

Some people complicate it to no end it boils down to simplicity. Yes get to know your self.

That will take a long time. The one thing you can not do in your first two years is commit Suicide.

You would be murdering a perfect stranger.

I sincerly hope you enjoy your journey.

[alfalfa19]

Having just celebrated 24 years, I have this to say: I feel the last thing you need to do is get away from it all and be with yourself. Wherever you go, your self goes with you. For most of us, myself included, it's our self which has caused so much misery to ourselves and to those around us. If you really want to do some soul searching, get busy with a fearless and thorough Fourth Step. After doing 1,2, and 3 to the best of your ability, of course.

[Chongalulu]

Looking for God - one instinctively refers to the teachings of our youth, namely - a Christian God. I have spent 3/4 of my adult life, as an AA member, and a secular Humanist. It didn't take me long to discount the myths, fables, superstitions and downright lies of Christianity. I offer you 3 alternative interpretations of "God" - or as AA's prefer to say, Higher Power.

1. Take the word "God" and just put an extra 'o' in it. This creates a huge canvas of spiritual understanding.

2. "Group of Drunks". The accumulated experience, wisdom and knowledge of AA members is certainly a power greater than myself.Most of what I now believe in came from other AA members. Listen.

3. "Good Orderly Direction". Just doing the next right thing, one pace at a time, will bring long term benefits. Your own experience doing things right is actually a spiritual uplifting.

You don't have to believe in the 'puppet master in the sky' concept of God, who is going to interact in your life if you ask nicely (pray). Look at some of the basic Buddhist teaching for spirituality within yourself, and relate behaviour to the Good Orderly Direction mode. If you can manage some of this without picking up the first drink - something is working. Good Luck.

He says he believes in God - why the need to try to convert him?

Someone mentioned "The Power of Now" - great book but it took me 10 years sober to understand it. i love a quote from it -

The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as "My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false," or Nietzsche's famous statement "God is dead."

The OP said he thinks he believes in God rather than an absolute,so far from trying to "convert" him he is being given very sound reasons to tackle his affliction even without a belief system thus providing a wider dimension independent of a god if ultimately that's what he chooses. If t he OP feels the truth is what matters (about which he will make up his own mind)and he would like a stimulating thought provoking read of an alternative to God ,I suggest " The God Delusion " by Richard Dawkins. It doesn't preach at you,like most who have never read it try to claim, but I warn you the logic is remorseless and difficult to argue against which is what makes it such an eye opening read. Good luck with whatever you decide but ultimately make your mind up from your own decisions,your conviction will ultimately be stronger.

[Neeranam]

Looking for God - one instinctively refers to the teachings of our youth, namely - a Christian God. I have spent 3/4 of my adult life, as an AA member, and a secular Humanist. It didn't take me long to discount the myths, fables, superstitions and downright lies of Christianity. I offer you 3 alternative interpretations of "God" - or as AA's prefer to say, Higher Power.

1. Take the word "God" and just put an extra 'o' in it. This creates a huge canvas of spiritual understanding.

2. "Group of Drunks". The accumulated experience, wisdom and knowledge of AA members is certainly a power greater than myself.Most of what I now believe in came from other AA members. Listen.

3. "Good Orderly Direction". Just doing the next right thing, one pace at a time, will bring long term benefits. Your own experience doing things right is actually a spiritual uplifting.

You don't have to believe in the 'puppet master in the sky' concept of God, who is going to interact in your life if you ask nicely (pray). Look at some of the basic Buddhist teaching for spirituality within yourself, and relate behaviour to the Good Orderly Direction mode. If you can manage some of this without picking up the first drink - something is working. Good Luck.

He says he believes in God - why the need to try to convert him?

Someone mentioned "The Power of Now" - great book but it took me 10 years sober to understand it. i love a quote from it -

The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as "My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false," or Nietzsche's famous statement "God is dead."

The OP said he thinks he believes in God rather than an absolute,so far from trying to "convert" him he is being given very sound reasons to tackle his affliction even without a belief system thus providing a wider dimension independent of a god if ultimately that's what he chooses. If t he OP feels the truth is what matters (about which he will make up his own mind)and he would like a stimulating thought provoking read of an alternative to God ,I suggest " The God Delusion " by Richard Dawkins. It doesn't preach at you,like most who have never read it try to claim, but I warn you the logic is remorseless and difficult to argue against which is what makes it such an eye opening read. Good luck with whatever you decide but ultimately make your mind up from your own decisions,your conviction will ultimately be stronger.

Richad Dawkins is one of those who "argue against God, as if he knew what it is that he is denying.

I know many AA members who don't believe in "God" but have the humility to have an open mind(which Dawkins doesnt) and believe that there is some higher power. Many believe in "sing sak sid" which is a Buddhist word for holy things.

For Buddhists there is an interesting book called "one step at a time" - Buddhism and the 12 steps.

I feel sorry for Dawkins as he is very blinkered - there was even an interview with Deepak Chopra, who certainly knows a hell of a lot more than Dawkins but Dawkins 'conveniently' edited the parts that he couldn't answer and was made look foolish.

I'd love to know why Dawkins is is so obsessed with something he doesn't believe exixts.

[NOWHERE]

Mate, you are making it way too complicated!!

To run away to a deserted island is not the solution.........

The real challenge is to live sober in your every day environment. Not easy, because many times you will feel isolated with all your drinking-buddies gone.

But slowly, slowly you will make new not-drinking friends, and more importantly you will start to respect yourself, which IMO is the most important reward, you will get by living sober.

As for the God part: If you are not at peace with yourself, no superpower will be able to help you.

It is all within you.

Not easy, but the bumpy road to sobriety is well worth travelling...........

Good luck

9 good years now!!

Don't need to read the replies any further. Spot on JOC.

[zeichen]

"Having just celebrated 24 years, I have this to say: I feel the last thing you need to do is get away from it all and be with yourself."

Really, being sober for 24 years gives you an omniscient sense to know what others need. That is awesome.

Oh, FYI you don't actually grow more each year you are sober. Most people concrete their viewpoint and understanding around 5th-8th year and really don't understand anymore. It is not like you are a master guru because you have XXX years.

As to the moron who calls God a Puppet master in the sky". Please tell me which religion teaches you that. There is not one branch of Christianity or Judaism or even Islam that believes that God manipulates our lives. The exact opposite is taught. I think that you use your own ignorance and bias to keep yourself from actually changing. But to be honest from what I see in Thailand's AA community, you fit right in. Not a lot of spiritual growth or understanding. A lot of Bill W. worship and excuses why they whore chase, cheat, steal and are dishonest. Then you get the ones that talk a good talk in the meeting, but watch them in their daily lives, same as the rest. AA members back in the west, tend to be more sane and continue growing.

[oldwhitecap]

First telling people how many years sober you have does not make any one a expert on AA but it at least puts it in perspective . I try to refrain from it myself.

I do agree that getting away from it all may not be a good idea generally for a newcomer better to go to meetings and develop a home group. But every bodies circumstance is different .

one thing that I would point out about ZEICHEN is that it is not good to take everybody's else's inventory .

what happened to tolerance and understanding. Worship of Bill W. I have never seen this , is he talking about quoting the big book ?

Their are some screwed up people that come into AA hopefully they get better , I feel much better and happier it took me about two years to really start feeling stable .

It's worth it newcomers their is a whole new life waiting for you don't let the quarrels of members discourage you.

As the book says we know but a little and more will be revealed ( thats not worship thats the book it just so happens that Bill W. with help wrote it.)

[alfalfa19]

"Having just celebrated 24 years, I have this to say: I feel the last thing you need to do is get away from it all and be with yourself."

Really, being sober for 24 years gives you an omniscient sense to know what others need. That is awesome.

Oh, FYI you don't actually grow more each year you are sober. Most people concrete their viewpoint and understanding around 5th-8th year and really don't understand anymore. It is not like you are a master guru because you have XXX years.

As to the moron who calls God a Puppet master in the sky". Please tell me which religion teaches you that. There is not one branch of Christianity or Judaism or even Islam that believes that God manipulates our lives. The exact opposite is taught. I think that you use your own ignorance and bias to keep yourself from actually changing. But to be honest from what I see in Thailand's AA community, you fit right in. Not a lot of spiritual growth or understanding. A lot of Bill W. worship and excuses why they whore chase, cheat, steal and are dishonest. Then you get the ones that talk a good talk in the meeting, but watch them in their daily lives, same as the rest. AA members back in the west, tend to be more sane and continue growing.

You seem very comfortable with belittling others and belching a lot of bitterness and negativity. I never claimed to be omniscient. I was merely offering my opinion, if you don't like it, why not shut your piehole and move on????? Are you one of the many on this forum who cannot manage to drag themselves out from the bottom of a very cheap glass of beer, and comfort themselves by attacking others who have the courage to change their lives?

This excerpt from your tirade is especially revealing: "Oh, FYI you don't actually grow more each year you are sober. Most people concrete their viewpoint and understanding around 5th-8th year and really don't understand anymore. It is not like you are a master guru because you have XXX years." Thanks ever so much for that nugget of wisdom, professor.

Fascinating! Nice to see that you have determined that people don't continue to grow with continued sobriety/clean time. Also very impressive that you have narrowed down and limited the period of growth to 5 - 8 years. You must be extraordinarily popular and well respected among the bar stool brigade.

"

[Linzz]

Come on guys! This bickering and adding insult to injury is way off topic to the OP who was asking for a bit of help and got it with some of the first postings and level of sympathy and help was impressive. Not sure why as time goes by, it then has to degrade into a battle of egos. Time to stop and turn the other cheek, yes?

[gerryBScot]

"It was out of the depths of loneliness, depression and despair that I sought the help of AA. As I recovered and began to face the emptiness and ruin of my life, I began to open myself to the possibility of the healing that recovery offers through the AA program. By coming to meetings, staying sober and taking the Steps I had the opportunity to listen with increasing attentiveness to the depths of my soul. Daily I waited, in hope and gratitude for that sure belief and steadfast love I had longed for in my life. In this process I met God, as I understand Him."

Daily Reflections via AA Philippines June 17th, 2015

[zeichen]

"

Apparently, it is the mark of a spiritually advanced person to call someone a "moron" if he disagrees with that someone's views. I doubt they call it "flaming" because the inspiration comes from heaven. When will you learn to stop being abusive? Maybe there's a 12 step program for that."

This has to be the 100th post you follow on to comment about me and not contribute to anything else. Are you in AA, have you ever battled with recovery. NO< THEN go to another thread.

[zeichen]

double post

[zeichen]

" First telling people how many years sober you have does not make any one a expert on AA but it at least puts it in perspective . I try to refrain from it myself.

I do agree that getting away from it all may not be a good idea generally for a newcomer better to go to meetings and develop a home group. But every bodies circumstance is different . one thing that I would point out about ZEICHEN is that it is not good to take everybody's else's inventory .

what happened to tolerance and understanding. Worship of Bill W. I have never seen this , is he talking about quoting the big book ?

Their are some screwed up people that come into AA hopefully they get better , I feel much better and happier it took me about two years to really start feeling stable .

It's worth it newcomers their is a whole new life waiting for you don't let the quarrels of members discourage you.

As the book says we know but a little and more will be revealed ( thats not worship thats the book it just so happens that Bill W. with help wrote it.)"

I am not the one telling my years. I am the one criticizing some braggart for doing it. I don't think it helps anyone at all puffing their ego. After the first few years of struggle most people get it. 5 years or 50 years, you are still only one drink away from the disease.

Where in my post did I take inventory? Perhaps you need to go read that chapter again and actually learn what an inventory is. Most likely you just skipped it. I have little tolerance for those that spread nonsense. When people call "God" a puppet master, they clearly have a personal issue and know nothing about any religion at all. The OP in this thread actually has faith already so he doesn't need some self professed old timer guru telling him that he doesn't need a God.

As for the Bill W. worshipers. No I am not talking about the Big Book. I am talking about the many here especially in CM that talk about Bill's life and use him as a role model. Those that go to his home, read his biography and look at him and his sobriety as an ultimate path. Typically those that don't do the steps because Bill didn't do the steps.

[fang37]

Spiritual improvement - profound in the first 5-10 years. After that, subtle?

PS: I went to meetings in CNX for many years. Internal fighting, now many groups.

[zeichen]

"You seem very comfortable with belittling others and belching a lot of bitterness and negativity. I never claimed to be omniscient. I was merely offering my opinion, if you don't like it, why not shut your piehole and move on????? Are you one of the many on this forum who cannot manage to drag themselves out from the bottom of a very cheap glass of beer, and comfort themselves by attacking others who have the courage to change their lives?

Your opinion on a person that you don't know is pretty bad advice. How about offer the OP your solution to similar situations. Funny how you criticize me for my wording and then in the same breath show your own aggressiveness. You actually made my point quite well. Then you go on and accuse me of being an active alcoholic.

I don't drink and have never been in a bar. I won't tell you how long I have been in AA but long enough to get sick of other old timers who give advice rather than share experience, Those that rely on their years as a justification of their expertise.

This excerpt from your tirade is especially revealing: "Oh, FYI you don't actually grow more each year you are sober. Most people concrete their viewpoint and understanding around 5th-8th year and really don't understand anymore. It is not like you are a master guru because you have XXX years." Thanks ever so much for that nugget of wisdom, professor.

Fascinating! Nice to see that you have determined that people don't continue to grow with continued sobriety/clean time. Also very impressive that you have narrowed down and limited the period of growth to 5 - 8 years. You must be extraordinarily popular and well respected among the bar stool brigade. "

No, I have determined that people don't grow just because of their years. You are a perfect example of this. 24 years and you don't have humility, understanding or acceptance of others opinions either. Without knowing the OP at all you give advice. If you haven't had a similar situation to the OP then do what old timers say put the cotton from your ears and put it in your mouth. AA works because people share experience, strength and hope. Not give unwarranted advice on how to live. . Growth comes from practicing these principles in all our affairs not sitting at a meeting telling people that you have xxx years and you know more than they do.

I have met people in the program with 2-3 years that walk a better path than those that have 30+ years. One guy in CM AA actually would get a beer on his birthday every year and unfortunately he sponsored new comers all the time.

So, yes, I don't find AA here in Thailand even 10% of what it is back home. There are literally hundreds that tell new comers they don't need to do the steps to stay sober because Bill W. didn't do the steps when he first sobered up.

[Linzz]

[Neeranam]

"Having just celebrated 24 years, I have this to say: I feel the last thing you need to do is get away from it all and be with yourself."

Really, being sober for 24 years gives you an omniscient sense to know what others need. That is awesome.

Oh, FYI you don't actually grow more each year you are sober. Most people concrete their viewpoint and understanding around 5th-8th year and really don't understand anymore. It is not like you are a master guru because you have XXX years.

As to the moron who calls God a Puppet master in the sky". Please tell me which religion teaches you that. There is not one branch of Christianity or Judaism or even Islam that believes that God manipulates our lives. The exact opposite is taught. I think that you use your own ignorance and bias to keep yourself from actually changing. But to be honest from what I see in Thailand's AA community, you fit right in. Not a lot of spiritual growth or understanding. A lot of Bill W. worship and excuses why they whore chase, cheat, steal and are dishonest. Then you get the ones that talk a good talk in the meeting, but watch them in their daily lives, same as the rest. AA members back in the west, tend to be more sane and continue growing.

Which city are you in and b how long have you lived there?

I owe my life to AA members in Thailand who helped me sober up in 2000.

I've seen wonderful AA in Bkk, Khon Kaen, Hua Hin etc

Have you ever been to a local Thai language meeting where the miracle is obvious?

[drdad]

"I don't drink and have never been in a bar. I won't tell you how long I have been in AA but long enough to get sick of other old timers who give advice rather than share experience, Those that rely on their years as a justification of their expertise."

Obviously you have not been in AA long

Their are some people that attend a meeting or two and the proclaim themselves experts .

I don't know any AA member with a year or more of sobriety that would Proclaim "I don't drink and have never been in a bar"

​ also you opvilously don't even know what a AA inventory is or what part of the steps it is .

you seem very angry at people and may want a reason to drink .

​ Now i have taken your inventory something you have been doing to outhers in all your posts

AA will still be here when you are ready if you ever are

Have seen guys like this in and out for many years putting up with them teaches us patience

[gerryBScot]

Ladies and Gentlemen please....I don't think this thread makes AA very attractive and the only way we can promote is by being attractive. We don't go into bars rescuing drunks. This is not an attractive debate.

It needs to be stressed we don't debate in meetings, we share our experience, strength and hope on an individual basis and we do so uninterrupted and don't take questions or cross share. This is avowedly not a debating society because debates get us drunk again - that famous debating conclusion, hey I'm not really an alcoholic.

So in the context of this thread we make our thinking public and people can judge us and decide we are not a very attractive bunch. But sure I am with you all - as a drunk I was a belligerent, argumentative stroppy mofo and I don't have to work very hard to revert to that position these days without a drink in me.

Have a good day and keep it in the day.

[zeichen]

" I don't know any AA member with a year or more of sobriety that would Proclaim "I don't drink and have never been in a bar""

Well since I sobered up before I turned 21 and now am in my 40's, you can do the math. I have never been in a bar because I couldn't when I drank, and I never had the curiosity when I stopped. You seem to talk a lot about bars and seem to have a lot of experience in them. Perhaps get a few more meetings where you close your mouth and listen.

I have never left the program nor have I ever had the need to experiment. I didn't take anyone's inventory. You are making personal attacks, whereas I was pointing out the failure in logic for those that reject the notion of a God. Or those like yourself that proclaim to be a guru.

In Thailand, I have seen 3 fights at meetings. 2 in CM and one in BKK. The annual round up in Hua Hin is nothing short of disgusting. Sure there are some decent members, but there are literally dozens of "old timers" that take people on whoring expeditions. Not really what I call spiritual growth.

So sorry if I lumped you in with what I see going on here, but I wouldn't take advice from a single member of Thai AA. I listen to those that have suffered through similar experiences and watch how they grow through it, but giving and taking advice really isn't a part of AA. Perhaps you should think about that before telling someone you don't know, not to have a spiritual retreat and period of self reflection.

[JOC]

It seems like quite a few posters here have changed their alcohol addiction to a AA addiction!!

Seriously, use AA as a tool to break the habit if needed, but IMO going to AA meetings after 20+ years sober is allowing alcohol to still rule your life. How many common experiences can you share with fellow ex-drinkers??

Live your life as a sober alcoholic, without making it the sole purpose of your life. Socialize with the people you normally would socialize with, instead of trying to be a member of a "secret society", where you in the most cases will have very little in common with your fellow brothers!!

If you are not able to break free from the "brother-hood", alcohol is still in charge of your life...........

The road to sobriety alone (it is all within you) is sometimes lonely but interesting at the same time. And the reward is self-respect!!

[Linzz]

Sorry Corkman hope you got some benefit here, you let the genie out of the bottle so to speak..!

[Sawan Chan 7]

It seems like quite a few posters here have changed their alcohol addiction to a AA addiction!!

Seriously, use AA as a tool to break the habit if needed, but IMO going to AA meetings after 20+ years sober is allowing alcohol to still rule your life. How many common experiences can you share with fellow ex-drinkers??

Live your life as a sober alcoholic, without making it the sole purpose of your life. Socialize with the people you normally would socialize with, instead of trying to be a member of a "secret society", where you in the most cases will have very little in common with your fellow brothers!!

If you are not able to break free from the "brother-hood", alcohol is still in charge of your life...........

The road to sobriety alone (it is all within you) is sometimes lonely but interesting at the same time. And the reward is self-respect!!

AA is not a tool to break the habit of drinking. You are obviously not an alcoholic.

Alcoholism is a disease that is never cured. People go to meetings to do what AA is all about - passing it on in order to keep it yourself. or you'd understand the symptoms of the disease after stopping the alcohol ingestion.

Thank God that there are old-timers that go to meetings.

[Neeranam]

Hi Corkman

One thing about going on a spiritual retreat - I'd recommend that you have done at least the first 5 steps before doing such. One reason is that until you have cleaned house, it is very difficult, if not impossible to get a conscious contact with your higher power.

All the best

NN

[big carl]

It seems like quite a few posters here have changed their alcohol addiction to a AA addiction!!

Seriously, use AA as a tool to break the habit if needed, but IMO going to AA meetings after 20+ years sober is allowing alcohol to still rule your life. How many common experiences can you share with fellow ex-drinkers??

Live your life as a sober alcoholic, without making it the sole purpose of your life. Socialize with the people you normally would socialize with, instead of trying to be a member of a "secret society", where you in the most cases will have very little in common with your fellow brothers!!

If you are not able to break free from the "brother-hood", alcohol is still in charge of your life...........

The road to sobriety alone (it is all within you) is sometimes lonely but interesting at the same time. And the reward is self-respect!!

I don't know if you are new or not.I suspect you are new and know very little of the AA program. It consists of 12 steps and only one of them mentions Alcohol. The rest is about a way of living. After you have been sober a while you will notice that there has been a few changes in you. That is where the program comes in to play. It helps you to continue to change. Change is inevitable. With the program you can guide it forward.

As for the people in the fellowship that is another story. Some can be very helpful and others as you say have made it their life. Out side of AA they have nothing. Don't let those people scare you away.

I see by your attitude towards people who have not drank for a long time that you are still letting Alcohol control your life. Otherwise why would you be so negative about the people who have attained and maintained sobriety along with the many other gifts it brings.

[zeichen]

Sawanchan "

Alcoholism is a disease that is never cured. People go to meetings to do what AA is all about - passing it on in order to keep it yourself. or you'd understand the symptoms of the disease after stopping the alcohol ingestion.

Thank God that there are old-timers that go to meetings."

I wasn't there for the global meeting of AA where you were elected spokesperson. What a great honor you have.

Why not just state why you go and leave my reasons and every other members reasons out of it. There are as many different ways to run the program and reasons for continued sobriety as there are members.

Big Carl

"I don't know if you are new or not.I suspect you are new and know very little of the AA program. It consists of 12 steps and only one of them mentions Alcohol. ...I see by your attitude towards people who have not drank for a long time that you are still letting Alcohol control your life. Otherwise why would you be so negative about the people who have attained and maintained sobriety along with the many other gifts it brings."

Your strawman tactics to ruin his credibility by claiming that he is new or knows little about AA, is pretty lame. Why not just state your facts.

"The rest is about a way of living. After you have been sober a while you will notice that there has been a few changes in you. That is where the program comes in to play. It helps you to continue to change. Change is inevitable. With the program you can guide it forward."

This is very lovely and accurate. If this was your argument, you would have one. But instead you attack him instead of focusing on what you really wanted to say.

Though it is obvious that JOC has resentments towards the fellowship. None of your argument really applies to what he was saying.

There are definitely many ways one can remain sober and AA is only one. It isn't for everyone and not everyone needs the fellowship. He is also right that a lot of people replace one addiction for another. Not unique to AA but still a valid complaint.

[Neeranam]

Where in my post did I take inventory? Perhaps you need to go read that chapter again and actually learn what an inventory is. Most likely you just skipped it. I have little tolerance for those that spread nonsense. When people call "God" a puppet master, they clearly have a personal issue and know nothing about any religion at all. The OP in this thread actually has faith already so he doesn't need some self professed old timer guru telling him that he doesn't need a God.

As for the Bill W. worshipers. No I am not talking about the Big Book. I am talking about the many here especially in CM that talk about Bill's life and use him as a role model. Those that go to his home, read his biography and look at him and his sobriety as an ultimate path. Typically those that don't do the steps because Bill didn't do the steps.

Strange, I don't know anyone in AA that worships Bill W, whatever that means.

What do you mean he never did the steps? He wrote them!

[zeichen]

"What do you mean he never did the steps? He wrote them!

After he had been sober for over a decade. He also didn't write them alone. He wasn't even able to communicate towards the end when the 12 and 12 was supposedly written by him.

"Strange, I don't know anyone in AA that worships Bill W, whatever that means."

Really, did you know that there are tours to his house. People go on holidays to go the first meeting places.

He also coined the term 13th stepping that so many of the sexpats here love so well.

there is also a strong following in Thailand AA that don't believe in following the steps because "Bill didn't need them when he first got sober."