Big Impact Expected From Tougher Visa Rules

[angusandtj]

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My eyes are open. You have no idea who I am or where I live so you are only guessing. My experiences are certainly different from yours, that's all you have proven.

As for facts: the UN still has a list of countries and Thailand is a category 2 DEVELOPING country.

Not a category 3 "nations that show patchy development" such as many in

Africa, Central America, Caribbean, and much of Southeast Asia EXCEPT Thailand, as you have implied.

Nor is it a category 4 nation such as Haiti, Sudan, Somalia, Burma.

Thailand does not have high rates of illiteracy or disease. And, judging from your use of English, you could use a little refresher course yourself.

As for technology, Thailand has a mobile phone system that is the best in the region. I have ADSL at my house and I live almost a 100km from Bangkok. The hospital has an MRI machine and has just added a cardiac care wing.

You are totally wrong about this.

'nuff said

~

One last f***ing time. I am not talking about the list!!!! You also need to look at the whole country. A few regional improvements are not helping the Thais out in Isaan. I, along with alot of Thais will beg to differ with you on their illiteracy. You must be a European at the very least the way you rely on the UN to tell you what is what instead of using your head. Judging from my use of English? Please refresh me? It is not "almost a 100k" it's almost 100k. Maybe you need to go back to school.

[serpentine]

Sex pests may be undesirables, but let's not kid ourselves. The thousands of ladies who cater for the needs of these pests are an accepted part of thai culture. Do you have any idea how many wealthy asian tourists (who I guess often escape the stigma of been classified as a FARANG)) fly here weekly or monthly to visit the private brothels and bath houses all over Bangkok? Thai style. Because it happens behind closed doors it is not seen, therefore doesn't happen.

Most of these business travellers probably stay 5 star and spend big. Do you think the middle class thai is offended by these business sex tourists? I think a majority of thai men see the services of bar girls as an accepted social interaction. I don't personally agree, but I think letting one bad rat (that American bloke) ruin it for so many who love to travel freely in and out of Thailand regularly is harsh and will be harmful to many facets of the thai economy.

[angusandtj]

.

My eyes are open. You have no idea who I am or where I live so you are only guessing. My experiences are certainly different from yours, that's all you have proven.

As for facts: the UN still has a list of countries and Thailand is a category 2 DEVELOPING country.

Not a category 3 "nations that show patchy development" such as many in

Africa, Central America, Caribbean, and much of Southeast Asia EXCEPT Thailand, as you have implied.

Nor is it a category 4 nation such as Haiti, Sudan, Somalia, Burma.

Thailand does not have high rates of illiteracy or disease. And, judging from your use of English, you could use a little refresher course yourself.

As for technology, Thailand has a mobile phone system that is the best in the region. I have ADSL at my house and I live almost a 100km from Bangkok. The hospital has an MRI machine and has just added a cardiac care wing.

You are totally wrong about this.

'nuff said

~

One last f***ing time. I am not talking about the list!!!! You also need to look at the whole country. A few regional improvements are not helping the Thais out in Isaan. I, along with alot of Thais will beg to differ with you on their illiteracy. You must be a European at the very least the way you rely on the UN to tell you what is what instead of using your head. Judging from my use of English? Please refresh me? It is not "almost a 100k" it's almost 100k. Maybe you need to go back to school.

Goodbye and good luck to all of you. Even to you wannabe Russians who are apparently better and more intelligent than the rest of us. Dasfidanya to you as well.

[drummer]

.

Good posts hotgeekus, Col. Mustard, ramidin, bendix, and others who realize that true tourists are much better for a country than a bunch of people who are just a zigzag away from being refused entry.

EXCEPT ... it is not EITHER visa runners OR tourists... thos visa runners who might leave will not magically translate into an equal number of tourists.

Hotgeekus .... you are right. This is Thailand, it is, like the name says, the land of THAIS, not anyone else. They can do anything with their country that they want. And F1 Visa Runner's comments were quite imperialistic in tone. They conveyed a sense of superiority that many have so far commented on. The idea that someone with money can come here and order people around - people who are eager to have that money is something that Thais in particular strongly dislike ... and as I have heard, as a contributing factor to why a lot of Thais don't particularly like Middle Easterners as a group. (To clarify here it is a cultural difference - an expectation that Middle Easterners have that conflicts with what the Thai's value .... similar prehaps to takin off shoes, speaking loudly, and gesticulating wildly.)

However, many of his facts ... and most of what he put in bold, were indeed spot on. Economically speaking, Thailand is indeed financially benefitting from not only the ambassador tourists, but the backpackers and most criminals. IF backpackers have a budget of 1K Euros/month, which was just about my own budget as a tourist - I certainly would not have wanted to travel with less ... how many Thais can you employ, on average BKK wages, with 1,000 Euros to spend? At least 3, maybe 4.

While I support the idea of linking Thai Immigration to Interpol to make criminals easier to catch, a dispassionate look @ the situation shows that Thailand does indeed generate income overall from these guys.

We are ALL guests and visitors. Don't blame Thailand for enforcing ANY policy they care to invoke. You won't find any Thais in your country telling people how to run things.

Why hasn't this policy change been in the Thai press? Because 90% of Thai people couldn't care less. It's a non-item. They have their King, their culture, their family, their religion, and many other domestic problems, such as the violence in the South to be concerned with.

The effect on the actual tourist industry will be very VERY small.

VERY hard to say... I came here on recommendations from friends, and my mother and sister have both been out to visit me. A good friend of mine similar had 2 cousins and both parents come to visit. Would these people be 'legitimate tourists?' In almost all espects they would. Also, it is very hard to seperate the money spent by long term tourists with those from the "actual" tourists. The numbers seem to suggest around a quarter of a million European visa runners. Then there are the Japanese, are also in the tens of thousands alone, the Chinese, Koreans, Americans, Canadians, Cubans, Brazillians (I know several visa runners from each nationality - it would be reasonably safe to assume that there are significant populations of each when all added up) etc

If people averaged one visitor every 2 years (I rate above that) then that would make a significant dent in the number of "real" tourists.

It is very hard to guage the stats. A lot of guess work and estimation, and a lot has to do with how many people "get legal" and how long "legal" remains "legal"... the thrust here is to enfrce the spirit of the law rather than the letter, and any loopholes people find to "get legal" may get removed (such as the double entry tourist visa) as they get discovered.

I, for one, think things will improve for regular tourists. Mainly prices will go down after a period I would say. I know... I'm a moron or a Russian (let's go chug a bottle of vodka 'ay bendix ol' commerad?).

Sure prices will go down, but is this really good for the average Thais? Methinks not. Afterall, in New york there are tourist prices, overall prices, and then the prices you pay wwhen you know the area well. Bangkok is similar in many ways. Upcountry prics are still low, but there is a majot trickle back effect from people who travel to BKK to make more money, and ship the money back to help their families. Just take a look at any bank and look at what slips people are using.

Vast stretches of Thailand may remain undeveloped and more pleasing to the true tourist who comes here for Thai culture, authentic food, and rustic beauty. Not high-rise condos jammed willy-nilly in every available space.

Sure ... but again, undevelopment is counter to, well, deveopment. Thailand is a 3rd world nation, AKA 'Developing Nation' ... That is the very thing we are talking about. Sure- no high rises and cheap prices has its benefits, but good education, for example, certainly isn't one of them!

Just look at what has happened in Pattaya, Phuket, Samui in the last 20 years. They are zoos now with foreigners in the cages, that's all. Surely tourists don't come halfway around the world to see that.

And look at what else you have ... you ave Thais travelling from everywhere in the country to work there. There are better paying jobs there than most other places.

Again, if you take these places away then thailand will ebcome more Thai, but also poorer, weaker, and insignificant on the World scene.... which certainly seems to be countr to what they are trying to achieve.

Of course - it IS their country. They can do anything they want. Unfortunately, economics doesn't care a whit about sovereignty, culture, or pristine beaches (except insofar as these draw tourists+sell photo books!) And economically speaking, this is a very bad move.

The main reason I am posting this is because I am sure this forum is monitored by Thai Immigration officials and certainly the English press here and elsewhere. So many other posts degrade and belittle and disrespect this lovely country. Including the guy half a dozen pages back who referred to it as "Land Of Sh*t". Wouldn't that make you angry if you were a Thai?

Others call Thai people stupid or at least naive. Others imply that bribery of officials will be the order of the day. Thais are lazy, money grubbing, etc. etc. This kind of thing is very unfair to the 50 million other Thai people you haven't met personally.

You should hear what people call America!!!! England, Germany, France, Korea etc all have their detractors. Thailand is by no means alone in this respect. it is never going to change.

I applaud your strong support for Thailand, and I would like to add my own voice to it. it is a noble sentiment, and, more to the point, is SPOT ON.

However, it is plain to see that the real reason for these actions is knee jerk prejudice. The stated desires and the most probable effects do not match. But, we are all here at Thailand's pleasure, and it should be US wai'ing the THAIS for tolerating us a long as they have.

We, on the other hand, have full rights to think and do what we want as well, and if some of us do not like how we are thought of and treated, then we have the full right to leave. If they don't want us, they don't want us.

No need for the "You can't do this to us, We have money!!!" attitude F1 Visa Runner and others have expressed - if they don't want to sell, they don't have to. It IS their country.

[drummer]

Sex pests may be undesirables, but let's not kid ourselves. The thousands of ladies who cater for the needs of these pests are an accepted part of thai culture. Do you have any idea how many wealthy asian tourists (who I guess often escape the stigma of been classified as a FARANG)) fly here weekly or monthly to visit the private brothels and bath houses all over Bangkok? Thai style. Because it happens behind closed doors it is not seen, therefore doesn't happen.

Most of these business travellers probably stay 5 star and spend big. Do you think the middle class thai is offended by these business sex tourists? I think a majority of thai men see the services of bar girls as an accepted social interaction. I don't personally agree, but I think letting one bad rat (that American bloke) ruin it for so many who love to travel freely in and out of Thailand regularly is harsh and will be harmful to many facets of the thai economy.

A very good point. The sex industry for the Farang is earmarked by huge neon signs and touts who stop everyone who walk by saying "sexy DVD, sexy movie" or "ping pong show".... Thais have very quiet, nondescript places with black windows, and maybe a few girls sitting out front early in the evening. Only 3% of the biz is geared toard Farang... ever drive around Huai Kwang? Dozens of GIGANTIC brothels, each one bigger than Soi Cowboy or Nana.

The sex tourism is not the point. Its the look of things that matters.

[opebo]

A very good point. The sex industry for the Farang is earmarked by huge neon signs and touts who stop everyone who walk by saying "sexy DVD, sexy movie" or "ping pong show".... Thais have very quiet, nondescript places with black windows, and maybe a few girls sitting out front early in the evening. Only 3% of the biz is geared toard Farang... ever drive around Huai Kwang? Dozens of GIGANTIC brothels, each one bigger than Soi Cowboy or Nana.

Could you please direct me to this 'Huai Kwang'? Does it welcome farang or is it 'asian only'?

The sex tourism is not the point. Its the look of things that matters.

This is a very good point. Alas, the asian and particularly the Thai-oriented industry is much more likely to involve some coercion within the brothel arrangement. The nice thing about the farang-oriented industry is that the girls tend to be either freelancers or only very loosely associated with bars - they may leave anytime they wish. If the 'farang option' is lost by poor Thai women, they will be condemned to the - relatively speaking - ill treatment they recieve at the hands of their 'own people'.

[newfarang]

Objective Analysis

...

It looks like this will phase in over 3 months. The first and the biggest group will disappear next month, then after that people who arrived in August and finally people who arrive this month will be forced to leave around new year. So it should be like 70% in October, 25% in November, and 5% in December. I am sure many will be doing a last visa run near the end of this month to buy a few extra weeks thus 70% for October. Add that to the political uncertainty and tourists opting out for other destinations, and by the end of October the semi official start of the high tourist season many tourist destinations will be mostly vacant.

Fallout from the Thai education system will start to show more.

I cannot understand how on earth you can claim that tourist destinations will be "mostly vacant". This rule only says that one cannot stay more than 90 days within a 180 day period using the visa exemption. simple as that.

How many percent of the customers of the tourist destinations (hotels, resorts etc., not sleazy farang sex-bars) do fit that category, you think? I suspect less than 5%.

I agree with your comments on te education though - it may get hit significantly unless the work permits are made easier to obtain.

[LOS4words]

-->

QUOTE(Basil B @ 2006-09-16 03:30:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As most real tourists only spend a few weeks in Thailand, then these new rules will not affect them.

Those who spend months on end in the kingdom are not real tourists.

I've spent a total of 126 days so far in Thailand as a "REAL" tourist. And have spent some 750000 bath. Apparently i am now unwanted.

[baboon]

I asked the missus yesterday what her opinion was. The response? Get ready for a huge crime wave once the visa runs etc. come to an end.

Could you clarify what she meant?

Crime wave in general because of the economoc impact, or crime wave targetted at the remaining farangs?

I asked the missus yesterday what her opinion was. The response? Get ready for a huge crime wave once the visa runs etc. come to an end.

Could you clarify what she meant?

Crime wave in general because of the economoc impact, or crime wave targetted at the remaining farangs?

We saw a bit of a crime wave here in Phuket after the tsunami.

Nobody really knows what effect this new policy will have but invariably the smaller businesses will be affected most, who in turn provide livelihoods for many poorer people.

The number of quasi residents making 30 visa runs is huge.

I always thought it was a stupid policy. This new policy will force many out of the country I think and leave many Thai people in a lurch.

Time will tell.

She was talking about a general crime wave by now unemployed Thais with little education, working in the tourist industry who now will not make enough to feed their families who will target anyone. Even now, she is afraid to go home alone at night because of gamblers who lost their shirts on the world cup and predicts far worse to come....

[John K]

Objective Analysis

...

It looks like this will phase in over 3 months. The first and the biggest group will disappear next month, then after that people who arrived in August and finally people who arrive this month will be forced to leave around new year. So it should be like 70% in October, 25% in November, and 5% in December. I am sure many will be doing a last visa run near the end of this month to buy a few extra weeks thus 70% for October. Add that to the political uncertainty and tourists opting out for other destinations, and by the end of October the semi official start of the high tourist season many tourist destinations will be mostly vacant.

Fallout from the Thai education system will start to show more.

I cannot understand how on earth you can claim that tourist destinations will be "mostly vacant". This rule only says that one cannot stay more than 90 days within a 180 day period using the visa exemption. simple as that.

How many percent of the customers of the tourist destinations (hotels, resorts etc., not sleazy farang sex-bars) do fit that category, you think? I suspect less than 5%.

I agree with your comments on te education though - it may get hit significantly unless the work permits are made easier to obtain.

Political uncertainty for the tourist destinations. Why come in the height of the storm in November and December. Look at most of this year, and new rallies starting this week. TRT looking to start fights. I would feel a bit uncomfortable shopping knowing Thais were getting hurt and possibly dying in the streets in the same city. It looks to get hot.

Edited September 17, 2006 by John K

[Richard W]

"Hey, can I come to Thailand, get a submissive Thai young wife, and live like a prince on a pauper's income?"

For the first time, I told my friend in Texas, "Absolutely not. ..."

(I hope I haven't distorted the context too much.)

Can one really get a 'submissive Thai wife'? (I don't count beating her into submission.) I thought one had to remember that even if one is treated like a king, Thailand is a constitutional monarchy.

[F1 Visa Runner]

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Good posts hotgeekus, Col. Mustard, ramidin, bendix, and others who realize that true tourists are much better for a country than a bunch of people who are just a zigzag away from being refused entry.

Why hasn't this policy change been in the Thai press? Because 90% of Thai people couldn't care less. It's a non-item. They have their King, their culture, their family, their religion, and many other domestic problems, such as the violence in the South to be concerned with.

The effect on the actual tourist industry will be very VERY small.

Just look at what has happened in Pattaya, Phuket, Samui in the last 20 years. They are zoos now with foreigners in the cages, that's all. Surely tourists don't come halfway around the world to see that.

Don't try to live here and pretend to be a tourist. Get the proper visa. If you can't get the proper visa, then Thailand doesn't want you living here. Just like any other country. Nothing to do with the current buzz word "xenophobia". Come back and visit anytime and you will be welcomed.

You are surely welcome to visit your Thai condo anytime as long as you spend most of your time living elsewhere.

'nuff said

You are about as far off reality as it is possible to get!

Do you seriously mean what you say or is it the joke of the century!??

1.

True tourists are much better for this country. What kind of crap bullocks is that. In average my friends holidaying here spend about 180.000 b each for a month including airtickets and accomodation.

Lets see where 90% of money goes then.

45.000 airticket ( just sometimes thai airways)

20.000 accomodation ( 2-3 different hotel owners)

15.000 food (various restaurants )

7000 motorbike rent

5000 day trips

10.000 drinks (brought home to accomodation)

40.000 party (bars, disco, girls)

5000 at the beach (chairs, food, drinks, activities)

10.000 stuff bought to bring home ( copy watches, clothes, souvenirs)

Thats about it.. The rest all kind of things like photocopies, tel cards, gasoline, tuk tuk, massage etc.

So what do you think about the true tourist?? Widely spreading his money around Thailand??

Some of the above mentioned are due to revenue tax but far from all and the ones who are, do they pay what they should?

Sit down and have a drink with a thai friend who pays revenue tax for a business he`s got and ask him if zik zak`ing his tax paid up is common.

I`ll tell you this, it is as common for a thai that has the ability do it as it is to take in a mouth full of rice.

So what about the other kind of tourist. The super tourist, pro-tourist, all rear round tourist, un-true tourist, visa runner, visa hopper, border crosser or how I like to put it, The Ambassador Tourist!

What is he worth to Thailand?? In average I would say we flush into this economy everything from 60.000-400.000 b a month. And the biggest difference, WE DO IT EVERY MONTH! That makes us actually 10 times more important than the true tourist. Pretty interesting numbers huh!?

Then comes the other effect... The Ambassador effect. What do you think that one is worth?

You see, you have no clue about what you are talking about

2.

Tourists dont want to come half way around the world to see Pattaya, Phuket and Samui which now looks like zoo`s!?

I`ll tell you it is exactly what they want to come and see. Pick up the phone and phone up some travel agents in Europe and get it confirmed. This years high season is the highest booking on airline tickets ever seen to Thailand. They ones who dont want to see this went away a long time ago with a pack on their back!

3.

Thailand doesn`t want you here if you dont get a proper visa! What is that?

I bet the finance minister would love to have me here if he saw my bank statements on whats brought in from abroad. I guess he would love the other guy too in this thread who brought in over 50 mill over a 10 years period,

or the couple being here for 10 months having spent 35.000 US.

4.

You are welcome to visit your condo if spending most of your time living elsewhere!?

Yeah you are ###### right about that. They would be out of their minds of happiness if you in the meantime stayed at Banyan Tree so the revenue tax paid went up!

You havent got the slightest clue about a da#n thing going on in this country!

[bkkandrew]

At the moment the only political gain from this that I can see is Thaksin putting an end to this madness and making himself look like a savior of the Thais in Bangkok.

Why would Thaksin care about the Thais in Bangkok as they wouldn't vote for him anyway?

You keep going on about empty appartments as foreigners leave Thailand and how the Thai landlords will suffer as they can't find tenants. Have you considered that maybe if so many foreigners leave (and I doubt that huge numbers will) the appartment prices would have to drop which would be to the advantage of many Thais in Bangkok. As with most changes, some would lose while others gain.

You really fail to engage brain before mouth (well in this case, keyboard). Falling rents mean Thais with full mortgages failing to meet repayments when the repayments are derived from the rental income. Failing mortgage payments result in repossessions. Reposessions and lower real estate prices result in losses for banks. Losses for banks result in.... Oh I can't be bothered. Go look it up. 1997 Thailand. Russia 1998. Argentina recently. Actually forever..

[bkkandrew]

Just my two cents, and trust me, I am the new one here.....

Lots of talk about the Thai 'World' crashing with the changes... ie, apartments empty, Siam Paragon closing, all Thai's would become blind because they have no Farang to teach them English, etc....

Thailand was here long before we came, it will be here long after we (ok, I) go.

No matter how tough they make it here, VISA wise, it is still easier to live/work/survive in Thailand than any of the other countries I have lived in (USA, + 2 in Europe).

Fact is, This is Thailand, they don't and should not care what we think. Use this (maybe simple and stupid example):

You go to Patpong get right off the BTS, go buy a (fake) DVD for 100 baht. You know that in the western world it would cost ten times that, and have a quality that backs up the cost (yayaya, of course they are getting rich in Hollywood, screwing us here and there, blablabla). But, when you get home and the movie quality sux, and there are people getting up in front of the camera, you get pissed off go back and demand your money back. WHY IS IT THAT YOU KNOW YOU ARE BUYING A FAKE, BUT STILL EXPECT IT TO BE BETTER THAN THE REAL ONE? ONLY BECAUSE YOU CAN!

Trust me, this is not politics, these are foreigners who forget who's country they live in. I am a foreigner living in Thailand, and thankful that I am able to live here. I have a great job, great benefits and high(er) standard of living better/equal to home.

Sorry, but that is the truth.

You are actually nuts equating DVDs with visas.

I would guess that you have been here less than the typical holiday and your post can be treated as such.

[bkkandrew]

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Good posts hotgeekus, Col. Mustard, ramidin, bendix, and others who realize that true tourists are much better for a country than a bunch of people who are just a zigzag away from being refused entry.

We are ALL guests and visitors. Don't blame Thailand for enforcing ANY policy they care to invoke. You won't find any Thais in your country telling people how to run things.

Why hasn't this policy change been in the Thai press? Because 90% of Thai people couldn't care less. It's a non-item. They have their King, their culture, their family, their religion, and many other domestic problems, such as the violence in the South to be concerned with.

The effect on the actual tourist industry will be very VERY small.

I, for one, think things will improve for regular tourists. Mainly prices will go down after a period I would say. I know... I'm a moron or a Russian (let's go chug a bottle of vodka 'ay bendix ol' commerad?).

Vast stretches of Thailand may remain undeveloped and more pleasing to the true tourist who comes here for Thai culture, authentic food, and rustic beauty. Not high-rise condos jammed willy-nilly in every available space.

Just look at what has happened in Pattaya, Phuket, Samui in the last 20 years. They are zoos now with foreigners in the cages, that's all. Surely tourists don't come halfway around the world to see that.

As for the new rules. Easy.

Don't try to live here and pretend to be a tourist. Get the proper visa. If you can't get the proper visa, then Thailand doesn't want you living here. Just like any other country. Nothing to do with the current buzz word "xenophobia". Come back and visit anytime and you will be welcomed.

You have a condo? Lotsa people have condos in foreign countries all over the world for vacations and only go to them a month or so out of the year. They aren't complaining. err, maybe they are complaining but they still own them and go to them. You are surely welcome to visit your Thai condo anytime as long as you spend most of your time living elsewhere.

The main reason I am posting this is because I am sure this forum is monitored by Thai Immigration officials and certainly the English press here and elsewhere. So many other posts degrade and belittle and disrespect this lovely country. Including the guy half a dozen pages back who referred to it as "Land Of Sh*t". Wouldn't that make you angry if you were a Thai?

Others call Thai people stupid or at least naive. Others imply that bribery of officials will be the order of the day. Thais are lazy, money grubbing, etc. etc. This kind of thing is very unfair to the 50 million other Thai people you haven't met personally.

Please guys... Just concern yourself with what kind of visa you should try for and how to go about getting it. Face the truth. Act like a responsible person who values his time here and don't run down Thailand.

'nuff said

Quick question. Can you speak Thai? I can; and have been non-stop talking about this to Thais for the past few days, all of whom are horrified by the reality of this. If you cannot speak Thai and therefore have not actually been discussing matters with real Thais (that cannot speak English), then shut up. Enough said is the actual spelling

[blam]

My guess is that most of you people on this board do not speak Thai, if you do, maybe you can handle a fifty word vocabulary at best. I am not flaming you with my posts I am trying to make you understand the bottom line, maybe with a sense of humor. But Thai level, here it is:

If you spoke Thai you would understand that most of this country no longer supports the schitzophrenic movement of the Thai Rak Thai ruling party, no they don't, not any more. The extra judicial murders (known 4000, 10k is the accepted figure) during the cessation of ya-ba days was a shock to the Thai sensibilty. The corrupt construction contracts in the North were something they were used to, but 4 superhiways around a city that only needed one? Thai/Chinese contractors? Yep, they wonder a lot about that. (Thaksin is Thai/Chinese) The election commitee tampering, where 4 TRT supporters go to jail for not investigating fraud? The non payment of a massive amount of income tax by the Shinawatras? And of course, the switching of local military control to police control in the south, creating the bipolar effect we have now, i.e. bombs. (Thaksin is a big believer in police control, after all he is a 30 year cop.)

TRT has screwed up this country. If you need some correction on what the Thais think: this country IS NOT RUN BY THE THAI PEOPLE, it is run by Thai Rak Thai party. TRT is getting away with everything it wants without portfolio, and when something doesn't go their way they blame the press or the farangs. End of story. TRT vote buying strategies are already in place in all of the poor tambons in the country, because of this they will most probably win again. Thai people would not want you to know how it works, but there it is. People vote with their wallets 100% of the time.

Now. Tell me, who will buy the new condos in Chiang Mai and Phuket that Thaksin directly supported? Who is going to plunk down 10 million baht ($250,000 US) in hard currency for a retirement home w/visa in a schiziod and questionably controlled 'developing country? Big ideas, big plans, but hello they aren't selling, and the bathrooms are going to rust to rot before anyone is going to buy into this mess.

When you guys bloat up and start talking about the Thais want it this way, and the Thais want it that way... if you don't speak Thai, you know nothing of what you speak. You do however know what the ruling party wants, you know that for sure. Everyone I talk to, every one I know all over the country is sick and tired of the control issue. The educated Thai population wants Thai Rak Thai out, and out now. This visa issue is not a big thing, but it is ANOTHER thing that the Thai population is not happy about.

So, that's what it's all about here, control. Learn Thai, stop blither blathering with your farang buddies, stop pretending to know, TALK to the THAI people here. Educate yourselves on reality. And again... bendix and nuffsaid, stop it, just stop. Your high and mighty rhetoric is best served in your own homes. You don't have a clue what is really going on at ground level Thailand and you probably never will.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket

[bkkandrew]

A very good point. The sex industry for the Farang is earmarked by huge neon signs and touts who stop everyone who walk by saying "sexy DVD, sexy movie" or "ping pong show".... Thais have very quiet, nondescript places with black windows, and maybe a few girls sitting out front early in the evening. Only 3% of the biz is geared toard Farang... ever drive around Huai Kwang? Dozens of GIGANTIC brothels, each one bigger than Soi Cowboy or Nana.

Could you please direct me to this 'Huai Kwang'? Does it welcome farang or is it 'asian only'?

Live there. Very good, but speaking Thai is required. Ratchada sois 13-19 better.

[bkkandrew]

My guess is that most of you people on this board do not speak Thai, if you do, maybe you can handle a fifty word vocabulary at best. I am not flaming you with my posts I am trying to make you understand the bottom line, maybe with a sense of humor. But Thai level, here it is:

If you spoke Thai you would understand that most of this country no longer supports the schitzophrenic movement of the Thai Rak Thai ruling party, no they don't, not any more. The extra judicial murders (known 4000, 10k is the accepted figure) during the cessation of ya-ba days was a shock to the Thai sensibilty. The corrupt construction contracts in the North were something they were used to, but 4 superhiways around a city that only needed one? Thai/Chinese contractors? Yep, they wonder a lot about that. (Thaksin is Thai/Chinese) The election commitee tampering, where 4 TRT supporters go to jail for not investigating fraud? The non payment of a massive amount of income tax by the Shinawatras? And of course, the switching of local military control to police control in the south, creating the bipolar effect we have now, i.e. bombs. (Thaksin is a big believer in police control, after all he is a 30 year cop.)

TRT has screwed up this country. If you need some correction on what the Thais think: this country IS NOT RUN BY THE THAI PEOPLE, it is run by Thai Rak Thai party. TRT is getting away with everything it wants without portfolio, and when something doesn't go their way they blame the press or the farangs. End of story. TRT vote buying strategies are already in place in all of the poor tambons in the country, because of this they will most probably win again. Thai people would not want you to know how it works, but there it is. People vote with their wallets 100% of the time.

Now. Tell me, who will buy the new condos in Chiang Mai and Phuket that Thaksin directly supported? Who is going to plunk down 10 million baht ($250,000 US) in hard currency for a retirement home w/visa in a schiziod and questionably controlled 'developing country? Big ideas, big plans, but hello they aren't selling, and the bathrooms are going to rust to rot before anyone is going to buy into this mess.

When you guys bloat up and start talking about the Thais want it this way, and the Thais want it that way... if you don't speak Thai, you know nothing of what you speak. You do however know what the ruling party wants, you know that for sure. Everyone I talk to, every one I know all over the country is sick and tired of the control issue. The educated Thai population wants Thai Rak Thai out, and out now. This visa issue is not a big thing, but it is ANOTHER thing that the Thai population is not happy about.

So, that's what it's all about here, control. Learn Thai, stop blither blathering with your farang buddies, stop pretending to know, TALK to the THAI people here. Educate yourselves on reality. And again... bendix and nuffsaid, stop it, just stop. Your high and mighty rhetoric is best served in your own homes. You don't have a clue what is really going on at ground level Thailand and you probably never will.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket

Excellent post.I dispair of these people who claim to know what the Thais are thinking without the ability to actually converse with them... You know who you are!

[vodabury]

My guess is that most of you people on this board do not speak Thai, if you do, maybe you can handle a fifty word vocabulary at best. I am not flaming you with my posts I am trying to make you understand the bottom line, maybe with a sense of humor. But Thai level, here it is:

If you spoke Thai you would understand that most of this country no longer supports the schitzophrenic movement of the Thai Rak Thai ruling party, no they don't, not any more. The extra judicial murders (known 4000, 10k is the accepted figure) during the cessation of ya-ba days was a shock to the Thai sensibilty. The corrupt construction contracts in the North were something they were used to, but 4 superhiways around a city that only needed one? Thai/Chinese contractors? Yep, they wonder a lot about that. (Thaksin is Thai/Chinese) The election commitee tampering, where 4 TRT supporters go to jail for not investigating fraud? The non payment of a massive amount of income tax by the Shinawatras? And of course, the switching of local military control to police control in the south, creating the bipolar effect we have now, i.e. bombs. (Thaksin is a big believer in police control, after all he is a 30 year cop.)

TRT has screwed up this country. If you need some correction on what the Thais think: this country IS NOT RUN BY THE THAI PEOPLE, it is run by Thai Rak Thai party. TRT is getting away with everything it wants without portfolio, and when something doesn't go their way they blame the press or the farangs. End of story. TRT vote buying strategies are already in place in all of the poor tambons in the country, because of this they will most probably win again. Thai people would not want you to know how it works, but there it is. People vote with their wallets 100% of the time.

Now. Tell me, who will buy the new condos in Chiang Mai and Phuket that Thaksin directly supported? Who is going to plunk down 10 million baht ($250,000 US) in hard currency for a retirement home w/visa in a schiziod and questionably controlled 'developing country? Big ideas, big plans, but hello they aren't selling, and the bathrooms are going to rust to rot before anyone is going to buy into this mess.

When you guys bloat up and start talking about the Thais want it this way, and the Thais want it that way... if you don't speak Thai, you know nothing of what you speak. You do however know what the ruling party wants, you know that for sure. Everyone I talk to, every one I know all over the country is sick and tired of the control issue. The educated Thai population wants Thai Rak Thai out, and out now. This visa issue is not a big thing, but it is ANOTHER thing that the Thai population is not happy about.

So, that's what it's all about here, control. Learn Thai, stop blither blathering with your farang buddies, stop pretending to know, TALK to the THAI people here. Educate yourselves on reality. And again... bendix and nuffsaid, stop it, just stop. Your high and mighty rhetoric is best served in your own homes. You don't have a clue what is really going on at ground level Thailand and you probably never will.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket

You may speak Thai, but you speak like an ignorant Phuket farang. You do not undersatand the North.

[blam]

vodabury,

Ahem, I only moved to Phuket a year ago. Owned a home (teak) in inner Chiang Mai, Amphur Muang, for 16 years. Owned 32 rai of land in Lamphun. Kept a working office in Chiang Rai for 8 years. Have owned businesses, raised Thai kids (both now at CMU) and have bought and sold more cars than most Bangkok people own in a lifetime.

I created,worked with, and directly supported the hilltribe coffee growing projects with the 'King's Royal Projects' in Doi Wawi, Doi Chang, Doi Thung, (Chiang Rai) and, in Doi Om Koi (Tak) for over 14 years.

At this point some of you may know who I am, so be it.

I know that a lot of CM people still love Thaksin, he is a Chiang Mai homeboy, but there are many more who have formed a distaste for his obtuse selfishness.

Think again please vodabury.

[vodabury]

vodabury,

Ahem, I only moved to Phuket a year ago. Owned a home (teak) in inner Chiang Mai, Amphur Muang, for 16 years. Owned 32 rai of land in Lamphun. Kept a working office in Chiang Rai for 8 years. Have owned businesses, raised Thai kids (both now at CMU) and have bought and sold more cars than most Bangkok people own in a lifetime.

I created,worked with, and directly supported the hilltribe coffee growing projects with the 'King's Royal Projects' in Doi Wawi, Doi Chang, Doi Thung, (Chiang Rai) and, in Doi Om Koi (Tak) for over 14 years.

At this point some of you may know who I am, so be it.

I know that a lot of CM people still love Thaksin, he is a Chiang Mai homeboy, but there are many more who have formed a distaste for his obtuse selfishness.

Think again please vodabury.

No intention to cause you embarrasment. Yes, a lot of CM and CR folks do still support Thaksin and the reasons are clear to anyone who has lived there. As my partner says (who lines up with friends and family to vote for him) any other suggestions for PM?

Edited September 17, 2006 by vodabury

[blam]

Certainly this is way off topic here.

Chuan Leekpai brought more real agrarian growth, and more International support to the Kingdom than Thaksin could ever dream of, I miss those days. All of the allegations that origially brought Chuan down, were, in the end, unfounded and just a political shaft job by TRT.

Chiang Mai has been hurt financially by many of Thaksin's arbitrary dreamy lawmaking. Dreams are one thing, reality is another. Just ask George W. Bush.

Let's continue this soon, shall we?

Edited September 17, 2006 by blam

[DrFisher]

I see this post has changed dramatically! Anyway, in a email I received from the Chiang Mai expiates club, Allan Hall has this to say…

THE SITUATION AS IT STANDS REGARDING VISA

1. Retirement Visa extension. If you have a foreign married spouse

who is a dependent they will be able to get this dependent visa. (

change of what has been happing the last couple weeks in Bangkok)

Example: You are 52 years old and you have a 34 year old wife who is

from Germany, she can be a dependent. You only need 800,000 or a

pension of 65,000 Baht per month as a couple.

2. Retirement visa extension: If you have children under 20. They

will no longer be able to get a dependent visa based on you having an

extension of stay on retirement. Immigration wants these kids to get

it based on education so they go to school.

3. Investment Visa extension: Will no longer be available after Oct

1st for new applicants on 3 million Baht.

4. Investment visa extension. For existing extension of stay holders

of 3 million Baht, we are now being told this will now be

grandfathered in and they will be able to get the extension forever

as long as they renew.

5. Now the news for frequent visitors: We have checked this upwards

and backwards all day and it has been confirmed by a copy of the new

regulation we have. If you have a visa on arrival or a Tourist Visa

Exemption more than three times in six months, you cannot come into

Thailand without a visa from an Embassy/Consulate. When you enter

Thailand, even if you are here just 1 hour, this counts as 30 days.

If you come back 6 weeks later for 2 days, this again is 30 days. If

you arrive a month later for 4 days, still counts as 30 days. When

you leave, you cannot enter Thailand for 3.5 months without coming

back with a visa. The reason given is to force people who are

supposed to have work permits to do so and pay tax.

Another example; you arrive for a week, this counts as 30 days, One

month later 3 days and its 30 days, two months later and its for a

two week period, still another 30 days. You can reenter Thailand in 6

weeks without having a visa.

The clock starts at zero on Oct 1st 2006, meaning everyone has a

quota of three entries in the next six months. No matter how many

previous entries you may have.

6. On extension of stay based support of a Thai national (Marriage

visa), before if you applied for this extension of stay, you would

get a 30 day consideration stamp. Once you return to Immigration in

30 days you would get the one year extension.

Now however it will be the same as an extension of stay based on

business, with the norm of three 30 day consideration stamps instead

of one stamp( like before). Immigration will go out and check to see

if it’s a real marriage or a sham before issuing the one year.

For existing marriage visa holders, if they still have not checked

the marriage residence in the second year, the same multiple 30 day

consideration stamps, may apply before they issue the extension of

stay.

Your best choice is to obtain a multiple entry Non-Immigrant visa

which valid for 12 months. With this visa type you will need to exit

and enter Thailand at least every 90 days to get a new entry stamp

allowing you to stay a further 90 days.

If you utilize your visa the last time just before it expires, you

will get an extra 3 months "bonus", so the total validity will be

nearly 15 months.

You will probably NOT get a Multiple entry visa in neighboring

countries, your best chance of getting it is in your home country

before you arrive in Thailand.

Thai consulates in US, Europe and Australia seem to be the most

generous. The smaller consulates in Australia are the nearest and the

easiest, and air tickets to there are cheaper than to Europe or US. A

return ticket from Bangkok to Australia can be bought for less than

15,000 Baht with Air Asia (September 2006).

The Royal Thai Consulates in Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth in

Australia issue Multiple entry visas, as per September, 2006, we are

informed.

If you are married to a Thai citizen, you can easily get a multiple

entry visa in Penang. Bring your Thai marriage certificate in

original (and one copy)

Best Advice for anyone who is unsure is to speak with a lawyer.

Alan Hall

Chiangmai Expats Club - Expats helping Expats

[Thaiquila]

When you leave, you cannot enter Thailand for 3.5 months without coming back with a visa.

This is an academic question, as I would never try this myself, but deciphering the "logic" of Thai immigration policies makes great sport and I am not into crossword puzzles.

Anyway, back to your examples. New example.

April is a nice time to travel. So traveller Mr. Ateeyem arrives in Thailand (unforgettable as the Hub of Crackdowns) on APRIL 1.

First entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

Second entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

Third entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

OK, this traveller then leaves Thailand on APRIL 7 to his non Thai banishment

1. Does the 3.5 month clock for reentry to Thailand BEGIN on the date of APRIL 7, or does it actually begin 90 days after April 7, because after all immigration just told us each of those tiny entries counted as 30 days?

2. What does 3.5 months mean? Months have a different number of days in them. Isn't the rule rather a SPECIFIC number of days away? And I thought it was 90. 3.5 months sounds quite a bit more than 90 days.

Are these guys trying to impose some kind of math quiz psychological torture on these visa runner "criminals"?

Edited September 17, 2006 by Thaiquila

[britmaveric]

I have an inkling - this just isnt going to work.

[sting01]

If they were one third of the way smart, they would simply let the falang fo to immig and pay a few hundred B to extend.

Instead of causing more traffic, more wasted fuel [so much for "energy policy"] and making the Burmese and Lao rich.

I guess we file this under "not smart enough."

On the contary, The Thais are being very smart. A poster mentioned about the advertising abroad, this is exactly the point. Thailand wants foreign people in thailand, or rather they want foreign investment....the average sex tourist who does a 30 day run isnt the sort of person that LOS wants.

On the other hand, a businessman who wants to legitimately set up a company that pays taxes and employs Thai personnel is welcome via a work permit.

I can see their point. Someone who has been in Thailand for 5 years on continious 30 day stamps does not bring money into the country and in all honesty is more than likely working illegaly....

The smaller issues is that of those people under 50 who have more than enough money to support themselves but are not ledgable for a retirement visa - This is where the Thai's should change the law.....but at the end of the day, its THEIR country.

One point, very personnal because it's my situation:

I live in Thailand since 01/2002, with a tourist visa (monthly run).

I do work, but not illegaly, I do out sourcing work by internet. The reason is simple, even if I created a company (I did in 2003 and still pay Taxes on it at LamLuka taxe office) I am not entitled to a WP because I do not hire 4 thais. I also precise I tried to hire thais people, but obviously they were not willing to work with the hight stress that out sourcing IT work give usually.

So, yes that steps by the authorities can be a good one (clean a little bit the country from the shitbags who stay only because the beer is cheap and the girls hot), on the oither hand, mostly those shitbags pay, I mean they have money from outside Thailand, obviously they are not able to work too tired by f**** the girls and to drunk by the beers they drink.

The problem, and it's not a immediate problem, is I am not the only one by now to do 'out sourcing', several peoples/small companies are doing so. Thailand was the right place, internet was okie, life cost was okie too and it was possible to compete on this sector with the indians (same price but european/us work process). The soler results will be to push us to another neiborought countries (Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia ....). As our investment in harware are small and mobile, move is easy and noting will be left in thailand (a firm that move somewhere else will let the buildings, eventually a plant/fabric and the skills knowledges the local workers have acquires ... alll in one it's easy to re run the business in those conditions .... for IT , it's totally opposite, skills and knowledge can be aquires, but the will to work 15, 18 or more hours , and I mean work not time spend to chat).

I do agree it will not at first be a huge amount of money (btw us I earn about 50/60 k a month) but it's money who was spend integrally here, and as it out source, it mean foreigh currency. The other problem is the technology transfert. Rather than keep up the level of the thai programmers, it will at the end simply keep up the level of www.sanook.com. Last problem, my clients are my clients not because I am able to copy sanook.com with different colors (a kid of 10 can do it), but because some specials knowledge or skills. So even if some new thais coders try to get my market, they will have to show what they can do ....

Anyway, I am going to check the house renting in Vietiame and neighborought (I like Laos)

Roxannnnnnnnne

[Soju]

When you leave, you cannot enter Thailand for 3.5 months without coming back with a visa.

This is an academic question, as I would never try this myself, but deciphering the "logic" of Thai immigration policies makes great sport and I am not into crossword puzzles.

Anyway, back to your examples. New example.

April is a nice time to travel. So traveller Mr. Ateeyem arrives in Thailand (unforgettable as the Hub of Crackdowns) on APRIL 1.

First entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

Second entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

Third entry. 2 days. Counts as 30 days.

OK, this traveller then leaves Thailand on APRIL 7 to his non Thai banishment

1. Does the 3.5 month clock for reentry to Thailand BEGIN on the date of APRIL 7, or does it actually begin 90 days after April 7, because after all immigration just told us each of those tiny entries counted as 30 days?

2. What does 3.5 months mean? Months have a different number of days in them. Isn't the rule rather a SPECIFIC number of days away? And I thought it was 90. 3.5 months sounds quite a bit more than 90 days.

Are these guys trying to impose some kind of math quiz psychological torture on these visa runner "criminals"?

My understanding is that he cannot re-enter without a visa until October 1, a period of 5 months and 3 weeks. You are supposedly limited to 3 stamps in any given 6-month period, which starts on the date of entry for your first stamp. So from April 1 to October 1 is 6 months, during which period you are only allowed maximum 3 stamps.

[Soju]

Objective Analysis

...

It looks like this will phase in over 3 months. The first and the biggest group will disappear next month, then after that people who arrived in August and finally people who arrive this month will be forced to leave around new year. So it should be like 70% in October, 25% in November, and 5% in December. I am sure many will be doing a last visa run near the end of this month to buy a few extra weeks thus 70% for October. Add that to the political uncertainty and tourists opting out for other destinations, and by the end of October the semi official start of the high tourist season many tourist destinations will be mostly vacant.

Fallout from the Thai education system will start to show more.

I cannot understand how on earth you can claim that tourist destinations will be "mostly vacant". This rule only says that one cannot stay more than 90 days within a 180 day period using the visa exemption. simple as that.

How many percent of the customers of the tourist destinations (hotels, resorts etc., not sleazy farang sex-bars) do fit that category, you think? I suspect less than 5%.

I agree with your comments on te education though - it may get hit significantly unless the work permits are made easier to obtain.

It is not just the long-term tourists, but also the frequent tourists and businessmen that are affected. You are limited to only 3 stamps every 6 months, so a frequent tourist (and usually frequent tourists have a lot of money which is why they can travel frequently) can no longer just come to Thailand at a moments notice if they have 3 stamps in the past 6 months. Even if they were only 5% of the tourist market, the number of trips they make adds up to many more days, and many more Baht spent than the average tourist who comes for 1 or 2 weeks on their yearly vacation. Some frequent tourists who live in a nearby country even come almost every weekend, meaning they could easily be in Thailand for more than 100 days out of the year. Thus such a tourist would count for 10 tourists of the type that only spend 10 days out of the year. The same thing with the long-stay tourists. They may not come frequently, but they stay for a long time on each of their trips. So again, if they stay for 100 days on one trip, they're spending 10x the number of days as the 10-day tourist. If they only make up 5% of the tourist market, but they're spending 10x the money and time as the average tourist, their actual weight is 50%, not 5%. Something that must be considered. Thailand says they want to do away with the tourists who don't have money and only get quality tourists that spend a lot of money. Unfortunately, their flawed plan actually bans their absolute best tourists along with the ones they consider low-quality tourists. The best tourists are the ones who love Thailand and recommend Thailand to all their friends and aquaintances. The best tourists (these long-stay and frequent tourists) are the ones doing the majority of Thailand's word-of-mouth advertising. They are the ones who do the most to help attract new tourists. Yet Thai Immigration officials don't seem to realize this. They're implementing rules which may kill off their absolute best customers.

[bendix]

I'm very very bored of this subject now :-)

[virtualtraveller]

We've been herer before, some Thai buearacrat stands up on his soapbox and makes an announcement without due consultation to all parties regarding the real impact, and lax law enforcement means it never gets effectively followed through. Calls made by a Thai friend last week to the CHiang Mai immigration department, TAT office and tourist police revealed that non of them knew anything about it - says alot for the organisational structure doesn't it.

Here's what I predict will happen;

1. Those who could afford to get the money together and paperwork in order to get a non-imm visa will

2. Those who can barely afford to fly home to get a decent visa will go elsewhere (Cambodia, Philippines), and frankly, Thailand can do without them.

3. Those who are in a position to take advantage of the situation by accepting bribes to 'overlook' the 3 visa renewals, will.

4. The overal tourist spend in Thailand will barely register a dip.

5. Within a couple of years they will announce similar tightening on issuing non-imm visas again and again to the same people.

It will all come out in the wash, some people will find themselves without tenants and regular customers but it will be a marginal impact on the greater economy. As always, those determined to stay here will get more resourceful, schools will provide letters for non-imm visas (without actually apply eventually for the wp), in order to keep teachers.

Remember, the opinions mostly expressed in this string are from those who typicall survive on visa runs, they are but a fraction of the foreigners living here and a mere blimp on the 12 million tourists who visit Thailand every year.

Thailand might be a 'budget kind of place attracting budget kinds of people' but I think they have every right to get strict.