Big Impact Expected From Tougher Visa Rules

[drummer]

Being in Thailand on a 30 day stamp is LEGAL. Why are people calling such people ILLEGAL?

Because a lot of them work illegally. Also because the spirit of the law is more important than the letter out here, and the pirit of the law is that you can't live on a tourist visa.

If you think George Bush has it bad with the Iraq war, think again. That is just unpopular and has little effect on peoples income. This decision goes straight for the wallets of the Thais.

Not to get into a political debate, but 10 trillion dollars debt will indeed catch up to America in an economic form. This is wholly aside form the skyrocketing oil prices that have also resulted (largely) from the War.

I do agree, though - a lot of people will be out of jobs throughout the country. One thing is for certain, though, is that it will be an economic net loss for the country - not just in those that leave, but how many permanent stayers have people come visit? My mom and sister have both come out to visit me and my son. When I go back home, they won't have very far to go (actually, my sister will, cause shes working in Antartica now, but that another story) ... yes, I have avenues to stay here. I'm on a VOA right now, but was on a WP recently and will be again, if I decide to stay afterall. but this whole thing is honestly really putting me off Thailand. It is shortsighted, prejudiced policy (not that we don't have it in the US!) but as a foreigner, I am not really welcome here. I get it now.

Edited September 16, 2006 by drummer

[Gonzo the Face]

Being in Thailand on a 30 day stamp is LEGAL. Why are people calling such people ILLEGAL?

That seems to be your interpretation. Three 30 day stamps back to back are now considered legal. Four 30 day stamps will be considered illegal and will not be granted.... within the parameters of the new enforcement.

[madi]

I think I fall into a category mentioned above, where I work outside Thailand, but come back into the country every other month, for about 25 days. I stopped applying for visas, as it was time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I just come back in every time and get a 30 day stamp. I have lived, and on occasions worked, in Thailand for over 15 years. I married a Thai woman, have two children, several properties, and have invested a large amount of money in the country. I wish to remain living there, and being married to a Thai, and with children in school, I should be able to? If I have to start getting visas again, so be it. I qualify for a retirement visa, I think, being over 50 years old, and having sufficient capital in a Thai bank. What I don't need is to have hassles, when I return to Thailand on my return next month. I hope the smoke clears, and it becomes easier to understand exactly what the new regulations are...????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just get a Marriage visa.

It is an O Visa and they stamp Thai Wife in your Passport.

You renew it once a year. It takes 15 minutes.

[Gonzo the Face]

As much as I try to look for the positive in everything, there is little to be found in this story for both Thais and non Thais. The realist positive view is nothing short of Pandora’s box.

I don’t want to sound negative to the Thais but this clearly has not been thought out more than one or two steps. I feel worse for the Thais that will simply go under because this decision simply stops or significantly cuts their income. The people that have to leave can relatively easily set up in another country. This has long lasting problems for everyone.

If you think George Bush has it bad with the Iraq war, think again. That is just unpopular and has little effect on peoples income. This decision goes straight for the wallets of the Thais.

I have a non B and this does not effect me. However if the crime rate was to increase significantly I too would leave as would many others who are legitimately here. We would simply become targets of crime as we are already seen by Thais as having more money than them. I doubt that would encourage future investments in Thailand by companies in other countries.

John

You had me as a believer on most of that you post.

Until the above statement re George Bush.......

Now I fear you have been staring at your lava lamp for too long. Your statement that G Bush has not had an or little affect on the pocketbook of the average citizen ?????????????

Wow good stuff you got dere Johnny, said the devil .

[Thaiquila]

Being in Thailand on a 30 day stamp is LEGAL. Why are people calling such people ILLEGAL?

That seems to be your interpretation. Three 30 day stamps back to back are now considered legal. Four 30 day stamps will be considered illegal and will not be granted.... within the parameters of the new enforcement.

OK, this is semantic.

If someone has three 30 day chops in their passport, and an official stamps them a fourth time, they are still LEGAL. Any valid stamp, any valid visa means you are legally staying in Thailand.

It is annoying to have people refer to long stayers using whatever method, friendly consulates, multi entry tourist visas, and 30 day stamps as ILLEGAL. If they got (or get in the future) the stamp or visa, they are 100 percent legal.

Illegal activities are SEPERATE from visa status and it is just not fair to criminalize a person's visa status.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Thaiquila

[johnwills]

I agree that we cannot expect Thailand to talior visas directly for our personel needs, I'm not asking for that, I would just like to be treated fairly. I have been married to my Thai wife for 5 years, four of which we spent living in England. On my wife's arrival she was allowed to work legally and after one year she was granted IDL status (I believe it is two years now), she can buy property in her own name with no restrictions.

As yet, I am not affected by the changes, but who knows when my turn will come.

[John K]

As much as I try to look for the positive in everything, there is little to be found in this story for both Thais and non Thais. The realist positive view is nothing short of Pandora’s box.

I don’t want to sound negative to the Thais but this clearly has not been thought out more than one or two steps. I feel worse for the Thais that will simply go under because this decision simply stops or significantly cuts their income. The people that have to leave can relatively easily set up in another country. This has long lasting problems for everyone.

If you think George Bush has it bad with the Iraq war, think again. That is just unpopular and has little effect on peoples income. This decision goes straight for the wallets of the Thais.

I have a non B and this does not effect me. However if the crime rate was to increase significantly I too would leave as would many others who are legitimately here. We would simply become targets of crime as we are already seen by Thais as having more money than them. I doubt that would encourage future investments in Thailand by companies in other countries.

John

You had me as a believer on most of that you post.

Until the above statement re George Bush.......

Now I fear you have been staring at your lava lamp for too long. Your statement that G Bush has not had an or little affect on the pocketbook of the average citizen ?????????????

Wow good stuff you got dere Johnny, said the devil .

Sorry about that, I have not been to the states in a while.

[Gonzo the Face]

Being in Thailand on a 30 day stamp is LEGAL. Why are people calling such people ILLEGAL?

That seems to be your interpretation. Three 30 day stamps back to back are now considered legal. Four 30 day stamps will be considered illegal and will not be granted.... within the parameters of the new enforcement.

OK, this is semantic.

If someone has three 30 day chops in their passport, and an official stamps them a fourth time, they are still LEGAL. Any valid stamp, any valid visa means you are legally staying in Thailand.

It is annoying to have people refer to long stayers using whatever method, friendly consulates, multi entry tourist visas, and 30 day stamps as ILLEGAL. If they got (or get in the future) the stamp or visa, they are 100 percent legal.

Illegal activities are SEPERATE from visa status and it is just not fair to criminalize a person's visa status.

I hope hiz honor seez it your way

[Greer]

(george @ 2006-09-15 19:15:08)

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

...ummm...if they married Thai women, then they are no longer tourists, and would qualify for Non-Immigrant "O" visas anyway - of course they still cannot work using that.

Naturally, the better alternative if they are setting up businesses is to get a Non-Imm "B" business visa...

I think the quoted statement above is nonsense.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Greer

[ya5702]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO

Excellent retort. You hit the nails on the nead.

[Greer]

I think I fall into a category mentioned above, where I work outside Thailand, but come back into the country every other month, for about 25 days. I stopped applying for visas, as it was time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I just come back in every time and get a 30 day stamp. I have lived, and on occasions worked, in Thailand for over 15 years. I married a Thai woman, have two children, several properties, and have invested a large amount of money in the country. I wish to remain living there, and being married to a Thai, and with children in school, I should be able to? If I have to start getting visas again, so be it. I qualify for a retirement visa, I think, being over 50 years old, and having sufficient capital in a Thai bank. What I don't need is to have hassles, when I return to Thailand on my return next month. I hope the smoke clears, and it becomes easier to understand exactly what the new regulations are...????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just get a Marriage visa.

It is an O Visa and they stamp Thai Wife in your Passport.

You renew it once a year. It takes 15 minutes.

Your situation is exactly the same as mine, Paul.

I have for the past few years been getting a Non-Imm "O" visa - it is easy to get if the paperwork is in place (marriage cert, kids birth certs, that sort of stuff). The handy thing for some is that if you stay on a Non-Imm "O" for 3 years running, you qualify for PR status. (The new laws mentioned earlir may have changed this, I'm not sure.)

The only thing is that you must EXTEND the visa from within Thailand each year rather than going out and getting a new one (which is what I have done). The extension process is not too difficult, but must be done in Thailand, NOT outside the country.

The downside to the extension process is that once you apply, they then give you a date around 40 days hence when you must come back to the Immigration office to complete more processing - if for you, as it is for me, this is not a viable condition (I can't afford the time without work to support the family), then you simply have to get new ones each year.

I would love to get the PR, then at least many of the hassles might be reduced, but I cannot hang around Bangkok waiting, when I have to go out of the country to work, and it's too expensive to fly back and forth from say Oz or the UK whenever the Immigration needs me back - so no choice for me, but maybe for others...

/edit spelling and added info

Edited September 16, 2006 by Greer

[otherstuff1957]

Actually I don't think that most of the Thai economy will be hit hard by this change. Outside of the tourist areas the number of Farangs is relatively small. Within the tourist areas the upcoming high season will help disguise any impact. The effects won't really be noticed until next low season, when a large number of the usual long stayers are gone.

From the point of view of most Thai's, this change will be most visible in two ways:

1. About the middle of next semester many schools will have to reduce or eliminate their 'learn with a native speaker' programs.

2. A fair number of lower class woman and their families will suddenly be deprived of the support that they have become used to.

[Thaiquila]

Yes, it does seem there will be a shortage of native English teachers.

Maybe they can tweak the no working aspect of the retirement visa and allow retirees (on retirement visas) to teach English. These retirees might want to do something active and many might be willing to work for the low wages it seems are the market rate (as they have other money sources).

[A_Traveller]

The thing which strikes me here is that this very visible process doesn't really change things, except make a number of people, whatever their individual immigration status feel unwanted.

Since the formal regulations have not been made available and the newspapers only quote the singing commissioner one has to draw conclusions, which may ultimately be inaccurate..

As an example it doesn't take a trajectory scientist to see that starting from a zero position after October 1 three visa waiver trips then an externally issued single entry 60 tourist visa, with a 30 day extension, followed by a 10 day or so holiday outside the Kingdom allows the 'non-traveller' to start all over again. If this is possible what has been the point?

Maybe it's just about the money generated by this rolling tide of humanity, maybe it's the ability to at least appear to collate data about these individuals, maybe its all window dressing.

Note above I said if this is possible, there are a few things about the scenario which cause pause for thought, such as will an extension be granted, and for that matter would a Tourist visa be allowed after 3 visa waiver trips? I suppose the word 'Decentralisation' comes in here, with all the issues that raises. Further there are the immigration requirements such as confirmed flight ticket, 20,000 baht &tc. to be considered. If these were made mandatory any visa waiver trip by bus would be in an armoured car!

The real frustration here is the lack of details, none of which would be impossible to provide, so people could decide what this means to them according to their circumstances.

One is left with a reinforcement of the continual background 'noise' that foreigners {not just Caucasians} are at best tolerated in Thailand, and that, however long someone is here, or even apparently entrenched, the Thai mindset is one of insularity.

Will this cost Thailand 'real' money? Yes. I say that since I know of at least two major {multi-million dollar} projects which, on balance, will now not come to Thailand. In one and in part there were concerns from US investors following the publicity generated by JMK incident {anyone else noticed how Thai's say his name without spaces and in one exhalation as if to add an exclamation point} it's handling here, and the apparent capricious nature in which these immigration amendments are being promulgated only add to the general feeling of unease or instability.

I'm drawn to make a comparison with the land situation here, whilst a foreigner may own everything above the ground only a Thai may own the ground itself, in parallel it makes it difficult to feel part of the country, and the society one is in, if one is unable to put down substantive roots.

Time to re-evaluate the situation I feel.

Regards

/edit layout//

Edited September 16, 2006 by A_Traveller

[madi]

If you live here and are not on a proper Visa, you are breaking the law.

If you work here under false or fake degrees, you are breaking the law.

If you are working without a work permit, you are breaking the law.

Since we are not Thais, we can be deported for breaking the law.

We are all just visitors.

Thailand grants very few Non-Thai people a status that names them a permanant resident or citizen.

Thailand is for Thais. Respect that. I do. I love the place but I am not Thai. My children are but I am not. I keep to my own business. To do otherwise is a stupid thing to do here in Thailand for we Farang.

Even we who follow the law can be sent home (Will not happen I know) because we are not Thais. We are ALL just Farang. We are NOT Thai.

Always keep that in mind.

I do.

[pattaya_girl]

so true madi. your words speak the truth...

[Thaiquila]

If you live here and are not on a proper Visa, you are breaking the law.

If you have any kind of valid stamp or visa in your passport (not on overstay) please name the law you are breaking?

Edited September 16, 2006 by Thaiquila

[pattaya_girl]

i was in my local immigration office only two days ago to see this english guy blagarding to the officer coz he had to pay 1.900 bt to extend his stay here. as if the officer can change the rules, its not the officers fault....... this type of behaviour makes the thais think we are simple. if the guy blagarding doesnt like it then he should go home. the rules are the rules its a simple as that, and we have to adhere to them or get out. if anyone cant afford the new rules, then they should go home for a bit to save up again. same at the border, drunken staggering smelly men, makes us normal people look bad.

[booma]

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

Foreigners not paying tax is a big problem -- There is nowhere else to go for revenue, as all Thai business owners are law-abiding and proudly pay all taxes due already.

I hope they have and are using data to drive policy. Personally I can't imagine that lost business tax revenue comes anywhere close to the inflow of foreign money "tourists" bring with them.

Chuck

nails and heads come to mind

B

[laxman1960]

You could set up a Thai company and work through that. It would cost you about 50,000 Baht or so to setup, get your work permit, visa and all but then you would be legal. Or you could associate with an existing company in that business and work that way, again with a work permit no problem.

Sunbelt who sponsors this forum can easily do it for you, there are other lawyers as well out there who can also do it quite cost effectively.

Dan

OK so I am a little lost for myself. Currently I am working here legally (1 year work permit) But I feel that I want to do private tutoring come next year. Therefore no more work permit. However, I am getting married at the end of March, being 24 and married to a Thai, but no work permit, what options am I looking at here?

Thanks.

[F1 Visa Runner]

If you live here and are not on a proper Visa, you are breaking the law.

If you have any kind of valid stamp or visa in your passport (not on overstay) please name the law you are breaking?

That would be if you are here without having a visa.

I think we all understood madi`s point.

[bkkandrew]

For all those who want to change this new policy:

I have just gone down to the office at my apartment block, where I have stayed for three years. I have requested that the owner (a Thai) of my particular apartment, managed by the Condo Management be informed of my request to reduce rent from B13000 to B8000 from November. I explained the logic behind this, i.e. numerous vacancies from October onwards.

The management staff HAD NO IDEA that this was going on and from first thinking that I was being my usual nutcase self, they all started talking about whether this would be a problem generally (The Condo itself owns over 75% of the units).

Now if everyone did this in the next few days, maybe the message could get through to sopme powers that be??

[Aviador]

so true madi. your words speak the truth...

A Thai woman (Passaporn Chittaporn) I have known for years, sent me an e-mail recently. She is a PHD and did her doctoral research at the New York University School of Medicine. She mentioned, oh those Thais they always try to take advantage of farang because they think they are all rich.

She also told me that Thais order their feelings this way: First comes

the king, then parents, then close family, then aunts, uncles,

nephews, then classmates, then friends, then friends of friends, then

the dog, then the fleas on the dog, then………… farang..

Mai pen rai

[Thaiquila]

If you live here and are not on a proper Visa, you are breaking the law.

If you have any kind of valid stamp or visa in your passport (not on overstay) please name the law you are breaking?

That would be if you are here without having a visa.

I think we all understood madi`s point.

Correct. Illegal without a valid visa or stamp. Legal with any kind of visa or stamp. Madi was stating living in Thailand was illegal without a specific kind of visa, but I seriously doubt there is any such law. So, if there is, can someone state it?

[simcity]

I guess I'll retire in the Philipines, Cambodia... or somewhere else then.

i love your pug !

[Sunbelt Asia]

Obviosuly, this will be the first thought of those on 30 day stamps. Just switch to single entry tourist visas. Will this be permitted or not?

Any visa obtain from a Embassy do not count towards your quota.

As an example it doesn't take a trajectory scientist to see that starting from a zero position after October 1 three visa waiver trips then an externally issued single entry 60 tourist visa, with a 30 day extension, followed by a 10 day or so holiday outside the Kingdom allows the 'non-traveller' to start all over again. If this is possible what has been the point?

Your example is legal. However Immigration may feel, at least the Embassy/Consulate will be able to ask questions to the applicant" What are you doing in Thailand?" More than a couple of these cycle's and even more questions will be asked.

Maybe they can tweak the no working aspect of the retirement visa and allow retirees (on retirement visas) to teach English. These retirees might want to do something active and many might be willing to work for the low wages it seems are the market rate (as they have other money sources).

This may be happening sooner than later. Just yesterday, one of our work permit lawyers witness a case of a person getting a work permit with a extension of stay based on retirement. She asked the officer" How could this happen?" They said we are allowing it now. Without a official announcement, we are not sure if this was a isolated case but for sure one retirement case with a work permit just happened! Looking forward to try it soon ourselves and see if it is accepted.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[madi]

If you live here and are not on a proper Visa, you are breaking the law.

If you have any kind of valid stamp or visa in your passport (not on overstay) please name the law you are breaking?

You are correct as far as you go. I see your point. No law broken perhaps on the Visa but laws are broken. That was what I meant.

I was refering to those who work in Thailand without a work permit.

I was talking about those who use false papers to get a work permit. (Fake Degree)

How about those who have Fake marriages? I am sure that is against the law.

Their entry as a tourist might be OK but as soon as they do the other things, they are breaking Laws.

I know this is hard for people and I do feel for them. BUT this is Thailand and their laws are to be folowed. Unless they are a permanant residents or a Thai citizen, we are just visitors here and we can all be taken to the door and sent out.

That was my point.

That is why we should follow the rules and keep to our own business.

It works for me.

.

[F1 Visa Runner]

For all those who want to change this new policy:

I have just gone down to the office at my apartment block, where I have stayed for three years. I have requested that the owner (a Thai) of my particular apartment, managed by the Condo Management be informed of my request to reduce rent from B13000 to B8000 from November. I explained the logic behind this, i.e. numerous vacancies from October onwards.

The management staff HAD NO IDEA that this was going on and from first thinking that I was being my usual nutcase self, they all started talking about whether this would be a problem generally (The Condo itself owns over 75% of the units).

Now if everyone did this in the next few days, maybe the message could get through to sopme powers that be??

Thats the way to go! Post up a new thread on what every farang should do so things would really start moving.

It would fit very well into Thailand these days

A farang riot too

Its gonna be a heck of a civil war comin up soon... hahaha

[blam]

This goes directly at madi.

I am old, from BC, Canada and I have lived here in Thailand for over 20 years. In Chiang Mai for 15 yrs, now in Phuket. I have dumped some 50 million Baht into this country, via GF's, land holdings, business workings, Hill Tribe assistance, NGO assistance, etc, etc, etc. Thai immigration laws are insane, they always have been. It's a pain to deal with, on any level.

OK:

<deleted> are you talking about madi? The law is broken at every level, and in every sector, of this country; every second, of every minute of every hour of every day. Law breaking and corruption from the top down. From Taksin and the Chiang Mai construction contracts, to the 34,000 bar/massage girls going short time... from the level 17 Law proffesor signing to release an arrestee that's going to jump bail (wink wink,) to the late night BKK pimp tuk tuk driver. This country is all about breaking the law. Period.

You want to set an example madi? Do it in a place that understands the law. Thailand makes the words 'flim flam' a certainty, not just wishful thinking.

This visa thing is just another shuck and jive smoke screen, and the farangs will have to bear the BS. Blame the farangs, that's Taksin's motto.

Please read 'Sri Thononchai' madi; until you do, you ain't gotta clue, not one.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket

[madi]

This goes directly at madi.

I am old, from BC, Canada and I have lived here in Thailand for over 20 years. In Chiang Mai for 15 yrs, now in Phuket. I have dumped some 50 million Baht into this country, via GF's, land holdings, business workings, Hill Tribe assistance, NGO assistance, etc, etc, etc. Thai immigration laws are insane, they always have been. It's a pain to deal with, on any level.

OK:

<deleted> are you talking about madi? The law is broken at every level, and in every sector, of this country; every second, of every minute of every hour of every day. Law breaking and corruption from the top down. From Taksin and the Chiang Mai construction contracts, to the 34,000 bar/massage girls going short time... from the level 17 Law proffesor signing to release an arrestee that's going to jump bail (wink wink,) to the late night BKK pimp tuk tuk driver. This country is all about breaking the law. Period.

You want to set an example madi? Do it in a place that understands the law. Thailand makes the words 'flim flam' a certainty, not just wishful thinking.

This visa thing is just another shuck and jive smoke screen, and the farangs will have to bear the BS. Blame the farangs, that's Taksin's motto.

Please read 'Sri Thononchai' madi; until you do, you ain't gotta clue, not one.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket