Grammar Trivia and Pet Peeves

[northernphil]

A small one for me is Can/May, I can physically do it but I may not because I do not have permission or right to do it.

You are correct but that is an easy one. What about might/may. " I may have one more beer " " I might have one more beer " You could/would say to the bar tender

" May I have one more beer ? " " Certainly squire "

" Might I have one more beer " " Well I suppose you might , that is up to you "

This has been debated on many nights after a brew or 6 .

Another one , close/shut. " Come in , close the door and shut the window " any different to " Come in shut the door and close the window " My only thought here is windows have/had shutters hence shut the windows.

We won't get in to using the third person corpuscular imprecation when the fricative infundibular tense should be used. Far too early to discuss in the pub.

[cooked]

Listening to the BBC news every morning I am amazed how the standard of BBC English has gone down. Not necessarily grammatically, but in the way words are used, which grates on my shell like ear. Americanisms: the jury is out on that, a different ball game, take a rain check on that.... and so on and so on, phrases that I assume Americans no longer use. Beginning an answer with the word 'so' is completely unnecessary and sends me up the bloody wall.

Worst of all is vocal fry, mainly indulged in by young American females but lately it seems to have been taken over by some American males. I have heard it being performed by English people recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqVgtLQ7qM. This is when I switch over to BBC comedy.

Secondly, the widespread habit of ending a statement as though it was a question, apparently due to watching too many Australian soaps. (upwards inflection).

Innit?

So this is what it's like to be a grumpy old man.

[masuk]

I could could care less.

(25% of you will recognize this as a joke, the rest .. not so much. Please do not scold me if this went over your head.)

Probably as the original saying is "I could NOT care less"

[Linzz]

I always thought it was those living south of the Canadian border who sound a bit odd, when they talk about 'erbs, instead of herbs. Maybe that's the way the French say it?

South of the border, it does get awkward. Many say New Yak, not New York; a car is pronounced cah .......

And they recognize immediately that I am Canadian because many of us add "eh" at the end of a sentence ( and I am guilty of that).

While I understand that the first language of many Thaivisa members is not English, I accept that and say good on them for trying. But I find it difficult

to understand how English-first-language members fail to proof read their words. The most simple error (of versus or, on) can make it very difficult to quickly read and comprehend a comment.

But heh, none of us are perfect.

"Eh" when I was a kid became "ay" now it's "aye" in phone texts. Language is organic and changes with every generation

[masuk]

Listening to the BBC news every morning I am amazed how the standard of BBC English has gone down. Not necessarily grammatically, but in the way words are used, which grates on my shell like ear. Americanisms: the jury is out on that, a different ball game, take a rain check on that.... and so on and so on, phrases that I assume Americans no longer use. Beginning an answer with the word 'so' is completely unnecessary and sends me up the bloody wall.

Worst of all is vocal fry, mainly indulged in by young American females but lately it seems to have been taken over by some American males. I have heard it being performed by English people recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqVgtLQ7qM. This is when I switch over to BBC comedy.

Secondly, the widespread habit of ending a statement as though it was a question, apparently due to watching too many Australian soaps. (upwards inflection).

Innit?

So this is what it's like to be a grumpy old man.

I was listening to a US "English" teacher a few days back, and it was like, you know, quite interesting. It was like, red in colour, and the students, like, didn't have a clue.

Are there really people out there who use 'like" about three times in, like, every sentence?

Upward inflection, F.Y.I., is usually a dead give-away that they're from QLD. Banana Benders, aye.

[cooked]

you know, you know, like, innit?

[cooked]

Listening to the BBC news every morning I am amazed how the standard of BBC English has gone down. Not necessarily grammatically, but in the way words are used, which grates on my shell like ear. Americanisms: the jury is out on that, a different ball game, take a rain check on that.... and so on and so on, phrases that I assume Americans no longer use. Beginning an answer with the word 'so' is completely unnecessary and sends me up the bloody wall.

Worst of all is vocal fry, mainly indulged in by young American females but lately it seems to have been taken over by some American males. I have heard it being performed by English people recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqVgtLQ7qM. This is when I switch over to BBC comedy.

Secondly, the widespread habit of ending a statement as though it was a question, apparently due to watching too many Australian soaps. (upwards inflection).

Innit?

So this is what it's like to be a grumpy old man.

I was listening to a US "English" teacher a few days back, and it was like, you know, quite interesting. It was like, red in colour, and the students, like, didn't have a clue.

Are there really people out there who use 'like" about three times in, like, every sentence?

Upward inflection, F.Y.I., is usually a dead give-away that they're from QLD. Banana Benders, aye.

Good point but you hear it in the UK a LOT. Innit/

Edited June 26, 2015 by cooked

[Linzz]

Listening to the BBC news every morning I am amazed how the standard of BBC English has gone down. Not necessarily grammatically, but in the way words are used, which grates on my shell like ear. Americanisms: the jury is out on that, a different ball game, take a rain check on that.... and so on and so on, phrases that I assume Americans no longer use. Beginning an answer with the word 'so' is completely unnecessary and sends me up the bloody wall.

Worst of all is vocal fry, mainly indulged in by young American females but lately it seems to have been taken over by some American males. I have heard it being performed by English people recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqVgtLQ7qM. This is when I switch over to BBC comedy.

Secondly, the widespread habit of ending a statement as though it was a question, apparently due to watching too many Australian soaps. (upwards inflection).

Innit?

So this is what it's like to be a grumpy old man.

Interesting with English upward infection is a questioning (do you agree/understand). Not so in Thai, pronouncing a name with an upward inflection when you are not asking a question is amusing

[masuk]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

Teach your daughter to correct the English. The English language is German in origin, just like the Queen.

Yes, German was indeed one step in the forming of the English language, but going back a bit, a lot of the words originated in such places as India. Fast forward, and the language worked its way through the Netherlands (Holland) and Friesland, into the land of the Britons, add about 20,000 French words when they took over in 1066, and you are on the way to having English.

Which is one reason why we don't order 1 kg of dead pig at the butcher's, or cow or hen. We defer to the French and use pork, beef, poultry, venison and so on.

Many naval and sailing terms are almost the same in English as in The Netherlands.

I found it interesting to learn that Middle English (ca. 12th century) was very similar to modern Dutch. (for US readers, "Dutch" as in the Netherlands.

[Thakkar]

That that is your position is fair enough. That being said, I'd like to confess that I'm a big fan of the use of "that" in sentences, especially ones that are so long that a "that" could serve almost as a conjunction.

Could that kind of writing be construed as a grammar offence? That depends on one's level of grammar naziism. For the most part, it's just bad writing.

So, yes, I think I agree with you.

T

(That stands for "Thakkar" and not "that)

[bangon04]

"There is as we all know a grammatical rule that supersedes all others; if "everyone" uses it and understands it it's not errant."

Very true as English is a living language and no longer owned by any one country.

However it is no less painful to hear things which used to be so wrong.

One pet peeve is "different to" instead of "different from"

and I always wince when I hear on the BBC some expert journalist saying "different than"....

Yes I am a dinosaur, and proud of it..

[faraday]

"The green grass grows around the castle"

The Brits'll gerrit.

[islandguy]

My pet peeve regarding English language usage is the take over of English, at least where I am, by 'Globish' (look it up). While it's perfectly reasonable for Non Native Speakers to discard the bothersome bits like idiom and slang, it sure takes a lot of fun out of using this rich and confusing melange of words and usages that English had become. I say had because a real dumbing down seems to be occurring. The Indian newspapers still seem to delight in their unique take on English in a way I find very enjoyable.

[SheungWan]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

Its a complete doddle.

[dunque]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

That's news to me. When did this happen ?

[Gandtee]

Who really cares, when a Thai teacher of English on the DLTV teaches the pupils how to say Good Afternoon. 'Goo Daft Noo'.

[Saan]

Language is biological and always changing. In my life time which isn't really that long some rules have gone back and forth twice.

There was a theorist that said the problem is that the lowest common denominator is the one with the most influence on language. Since uneducated people reproduce 3-4 times that of educated people in a few generations intelligence will be bred out.

Language changes take some getting used to and no one is forcing anyone to change, you just have to be tolerant that others have. You will also be dated by your word choices. I had a colleague that would always say "That is a nice Frock". None of the Thai women in the office new what he was talking about. I suggested perhaps using terminology that they might know like shirt. "Frock is the proper term, so why should I change. I am trying to elevate their verbal skills"? I said I thought you were trying to give a compliment and left it at that.

Same with the use of poorly instead of sick. It just isn't utilized that often so if you ask "Do you feel poorly"? No one will really no what you are talking about and might assume that you are asking them if they are poor financially.

Language is more than just vocabulary and grammar it is also filled with cultural context. If you translate words directly they might not have the same understanding. In Thailand if someone comes up to you and says did you eat yet? They are just greeting you. For most westerners that question is usually followed with an invitation to lunch. Here not always.

I had a group of students study in the US for an exchange program. One night a kid hurt his leg but it was just a minor scrape. The leader of the group called the principal and said we need to go to the hospital ... injured his leg. The principal was frantic thinking the student broke his leg. Though they used proper English, the cultural context of word choices implied a greater sense of urgency. In Asia people go to the Hospital for everything. In the US it is usually just for emergencies or serious problems.

I think the overall thing is not to make blanket rules and statements to students. My wife once was in a class and was asked what she did last night. Her reply was "I took a bath." The NES teacher said, No, you took a shower. No one uses the word bath. My wife said " I didn't take a shower, I took a bath in the bathtub."

Or when a teacher says "No one talks like that!!!" Really should say that unless you are absolutely certain. I think stating " I don't use it that way, this is how I would say it..." Leaves room but also encourages students to follow your lead.

Language absolutes are quite futile as language and knowledge of language are always evolving.

You want change? Wait until you see what texting is going to do to the language.

It is the lost common denominator and it is the only time many young people put pen to paper, so to speak.

The abbreviations and acronyms that texters use will, I fear, become the standard language.

[zeichen]

"You want change? Wait until you see what texting is going to do to the language.

It is the lost common denominator and it is the only time many young people put pen to paper, so to speak.

The abbreviations and acronyms that texters use will, I fear, become the standard language."

Where have you been? It already has. They are in the dictionary so they are officially standard.

[duanebigsby]

I always thought it was those living south of the Canadian border who sound a bit odd, when they talk about 'erbs, instead of herbs. Maybe that's the way the French say it?

.I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him.

It seems a lot of Canadians sound out those diphthongs, about, tournament, etc. There's a region in the USA where that's done too, around New Jersey, Baltimore, Delaware.

My problem with grammar is Americans telling me my spelling or pronunciation is wrong.

Both 'erb and herb are correct.

I don't correct students who spell or pronounce the "other" way.

Edited June 26, 2015 by duanebigsby

[Shaunduhpostman]

I've noticed that certain grammar errors, if you will, seem to be gaining strength through repetition on web boards and via texting and the like. They are so common it almost seems that they are becoming standard, at least on internet and texting.

Off hand some of the ones I see a lot:

-apostrophe s for plurals: I just had two beer's this morning. Or: I just had two beers' this morning. (I've seen this one on headlines for Thaivisa articles several times)

-then and than used interchangeably: I drank more then he did this morning at breakfast.

- differences between where and were are getting blurrier: We where having a case of beer this morning when the grammar pedant arrived and ordered another case.

These are the ones that annoy me the most, but kind of ridiculous to be bugged about it, I know.

Semi-related side note: Reading Finnegans Wake again and where you have the full fruition of idiosyncratic ways of using English taken to its most extreme ends and then having words from 60 languages dumped into the mix, though if you know Norwegian, German and Italian you are mostly covered and it is still 80-90 percent comprehensible to English speakers who like to try and solve puzzles and mysteries when they read. Now there's a website that allows you to click on nearly every word in the book and get an explanation of any pun or witticism or reference or implication you are missing, no more need consult Mc Hugh's reference guide every second word! And of course you can just make up your meanings, though I supposed for most it's easier to just look at patterns in the stucco or clouds and get your meaning there.

[MrBrad]

"Peeve #1. Who is for people and that is for things. You wouldn't want to say .. My neighbor has a dog who barks too much. So why say .. My friend has a sister that talks too much? Officially that for people is acceptable but it sure sounds ugly."

Not always. Things can be "who" also.

1. English is a language, the complicated grammar rules of which I do not understand.

2. English is a language whose complicated grammar rules I do not understand.

And probably the easiest on the ears would be:

3. I do not understand the complicated grammar rules of the English language.

But number 2 is also correct despite using who/whose for a thing.

Just for fun, here's another similar example:

- I prefer a restaurant whose tables aren't placed too close to each other.
- I prefer a restaurant in which the tables aren't placed too close to each other.
- I prefer a restaurant that doesn't have its tables placed too close to each other.

[northernphil]

Talking of BBC English which we were not. Several years ago a Hi So was involved in an accident and the newscaster said " ........... is in hospital and he is critical "

" I don't like the food , I don't like the tea but I do like the nurses " Critical condition !

[Patanawet]

Americans claim that they drop the 'h' when pronouncing herb because it is a French word. Surely the French would pronounce it 'airb'.

How do Americans pronounce the name Herb (Herbert)?

I'm about to argue against myself when I point out that in written English, a word beginning with H should be preceded with 'an' and not 'a'. For example written as 'an hotel' but pronounced 'an otel'.

I can't agree more with the member who abhors the use of 'so' to begin a sentence. I hate it.

Don't get me onto the misuse of apostrophes!

[bangon04]

There is less and less reasons to worry about the correct use of words these days....

As long as we are all doing as good as possible, their isn't nuffing to bovver about.

Am I bovvered?

Am I bovvered?

Edited June 26, 2015 by bangon04

[weegee]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

Reminds my of our secretary in Australia, who came from (hailed?) the USA.

She always carried in the top pocket of her lab coat, an English-American dictionary.

We had just moved into our newly finished building, and "E" asked me if she could have a sign outside her office say 'INCREASE".

I explained to her that increases are normally made after one has been employed for 12 months.

Nope, that's not what she meant, so out with the Eng-Am dictionary. A quick flick through the pages, and she pointed at the word INQUIRIES!

"Inquiry" says me. Why on earth do you want to hold an Inquiry. What's the big problem?

A few more cross-purpose questions, and all is revealed. 'E' wanted a sign which said "ENQUIRIES".

So: different spelling, different pronunciation, totally different meaning. EN-QUIR-IES.

Yes, I also made the big mistake of asking her for a rubber. I did the same in the UK when I asked for a roll of DUREX. Seems transparent sticky tape has a slightly different meaning there.

Why doncha lern to speek proper like? Come to Aussie and we'll even teach you some totally new words!!

eg. emus, chooks, dunnies (old aboriginal curse)

You forgot...'gunna"

[MrBrad]

That that is your position is fair enough. That being said, I'd like to confess that I'm a big fan of the use of "that" in sentences, especially ones that are so long that a "that" could serve almost as a conjunction.

Could that kind of writing be construed as a grammar offence? That depends on one's level of grammar naziism. For the most part, it's just bad writing.

So, yes, I think I agree with you.

T

(That stands for "Thakkar" and not "that)

I said that that "that" that that man wrote should have been underlined.

That's 5 "thats" in a row!

I said that(1),that(2) "that"(3) that(4) that(5) man wrote should have been underlined.

(1)The first "that" is used according to the second definition, as a conjunction. It introduces the quote. Strictly speaking it isn't necessary, but in English it is allowed. For example, either of the following two sentences are correct:

1. I said, "I don't want to do any more riddles."

2. I said that I don't want to do any more riddles.

(2) The second "that" follows the first pronoun definition: "The one designated or implied."

(3) The one it designates is the third "that," which has quotation marks since it references itself (it is used as a noun). This is easier to understand if you imagine another word, like "letter" in its place: I said that, "That letter that..." - except that it was not a letter written, but the word "that."

(4) The fourth "that" is used according to the second definition. This is easier to understand if you replace it with "which": I said that "that 'that' which that man wrote..."

(5) The fifth "that" refers to the man, again using the first definition: "The one designated or implied."

It is correct despite sounding a bit Porky Piggish.

[masuk]

I've noticed that certain grammar errors, if you will, seem to be gaining strength through repetition on web boards and via texting and the like. They are so common it almost seems that they are becoming standard, at least on internet and texting.

Off hand some of the ones I see a lot:

-apostrophe s for plurals: I just had two beer's this morning. Or: I just had two beers' this morning. (I've seen this one on headlines for Thaivisa articles several times)

-then and than used interchangeably: I drank more then he did this morning at breakfast.

- differences between where and were are getting blurrier: We where having a case of beer this morning when the grammar pedant arrived and ordered another case.

These are the ones that annoy me the most, but kind of ridiculous to be bugged about it, I know.

Semi-related side note: Reading Finnegans Wake again and where you have the full fruition of idiosyncratic ways of using English taken to its most extreme ends and then having words from 60 languages dumped into the mix, though if you know Norwegian, German and Italian you are mostly covered and it is still 80-90 percent comprehensible to English speakers who like to try and solve puzzles and mysteries when they read. Now there's a website that allows you to click on nearly every word in the book and get an explanation of any pun or witticism or reference or implication you are missing, no more need consult Mc Hugh's reference guide every second word! And of course you can just make up your meanings, though I supposed for most it's easier to just look at patterns in the stucco or clouds and get your meaning there.

There are a great many other mis-spellings which are commonly made. "Their" going to a party instead of 'they're'.

As for the errant apostrophe, (aka "the Greengrocers' apostrophe", a lot of folk seem to use it if almost any word ends in 's'? Cabbage's; CD's, or confusing BOY's toilet and BOYS' toilet. Which lucky student has his own toilet.?

But as one reader has said, there is a growing tendency to interchange 'then' and 'than'. Is this because of a regional accent or a case of not knowing? "I'd rather have ice cream, then brocolli".

[faraday]

What really grind's my gear's is the constant use of the word 'Like' by young people.

" It was like so awesome, like"

Boil's my pish.

Btw, I have intentionally used apostrophes incorrectly; I wonder who'll scold me & not see the irony.

[ResandePohm]

This is the type of pedantry with which I will not up with put.

Heard in the suburbs of Derby, UK. Two kids playing in the street when a mother comes out to call in her off spring. "Her ain't calling we. Us don't belong to she".

[bkkworker]

"Peeve #4. ... et al is for more than two and it has no periods."

Latin: "and others"

et alii (m), et aliae (f), et alia (n)

et. al. (wrong)

et al (wrong)

et al. (correct)

As I prefer my dessert after my main meal, I prefer broccoli, then ice cream.

Edited June 26, 2015 by bkkworker