TDRI's Niphon blames political interference in 2011 for today's water crisis

[webfact]

TDRI's Niphon blames political interference in 2011 for today’s water crisis



BANGKOK: -- Political interference in the management of water resources at the country’s major dams in 2011 was chiefly responsible for today’s water crisis, said Mr Niphon Puapongsakorn, a prominent academic at Thailand Development and Research Institute, on Wednesday.

Speaking at a seminar on the subject of “Thailand’s water management: policy proposals”, he said that political interference in water management in 2011 stemmed from then politicians’ concern with flooding and the rice pledging policy which encouraged farmers to increase rice farming and ignoring warning of the Irrigation Department of possible water shortage.

Besides El Nino which is contributing to the drought problem, Mr Niphon said that political interference led to the adjustment of lower rule curve (LRV) in water control by the Royal Irrigation Department. This, he added, resulted to excessive release of water from the dams below the LRC level.

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/tdris-niphon-blames-political-interference-in-2011-for-todays-water-crisis

-- Thai PBS 2015-07-01

[15Peter20]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

[robblok]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

[dickyknee]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

A problem that's not isolated to water management

[smutcakes]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

[halloween]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

As soldiers' positions don't depend on the whim of a large demographic, i would guess so.

[AleG]

This matches perfectly what someone I know, who was doing a water management post-grade at the time, told me in 2012, politicians were deciding how to manage the water, not the professionals.

After the floods of 2011 (caused in large part by withholding the water at the dams to allow the rice harvest to enter into the Rice Scheme) the dams were kept at a low level to avoid another flooding and to increase rice farming, as the saying goes, for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and usually wrong, excessive discharge from the dams was that answer.

[Ruamari]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

Actually, it was politicians that have been at various temporarily aligned with PTP and temporarily aligned with the Democrats (and temporarily aligned with anyone else who would take them).

Although the government changed in 2011, the same Chartthaipattana agriculture minister remained in place in both coalitions.

[BigBadGeordie]

I am not a hydrologist (not even sure if that's the correct term), so can someone who has some knowledge in this field please tell me why we have a problem now?

Political interference in 2011, OK instructed to let more water out, military coup in 2014, did the order remain in force for 3 years? Did the military not stop the practice in 2014? Have we had massively reduced rainfall since 2011? Now we have artificial rainmaking which they say will alleviate/solve the problem?

Or is someone just playing politics?

[robblok]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

Don't you know who interfered with the dams ? to save his province and rice.. I thought it was public knowledge. Just go inform yourself a bit and then you know that 2011 flooding was for a large caused by those actions. So yes I believe it. I lived through the flooding it affected me in a bad way so I did loads of research.

So what is the part you don't believe ?

[Eric Loh]

Whole lot of generalization by Khun Niphon. Find this hard to agree with him if you consider that the rainfall in 2011 up to mid 2014 was higher than normal and the dams were filled to requirement and plenty of water for rice farming. Just how did management in 2011 affect current water situation. This drought only started to manifest end 2014 when the related agencies started their warning on the management of the dam water volume. You mean to tell me that the Irrigation Department in 2011 saw the drought happening in 2014 and gave that much early warning?

[tbthailand]

clearly the NACC needs to get on the stick and send more politicians to the rubber-stampers for impeachment.

[smutcakes]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

Don't you know who interfered with the dams ? to save his province and rice.. I thought it was public knowledge. Just go inform yourself a bit and then you know that 2011 flooding was for a large caused by those actions. So yes I believe it. I lived through the flooding it affected me in a bad way so I did loads of research.

So what is the part you don't believe ?

I don't believe that Robblock of the internet, can understand the complex factors environmental and political of an incident which probably built over 9 months over two governments and across 1000's of km of land rained upon in many countries, yet you have narrowed it down to one politician saving his province and rice!!

And how have you got these caste iron facts of this political doing something, and how did that have the knock on affects that it did? Or was there just a huge amount if rain dumped that year? Given it flooded all over the country? was whatever rumour you are believing even a factor in it? Do you have any proof at all? Do you have any expertise to lean on which says this was the cause? Or are you just speculating because it suits your agenda?

For someone who understands these complex factors your sure seemed dim when you were whining that the Government did not tell you your area was going to flood. For such a professional in these complex matters i would have thought you would have foreseen the flooding.

[robblok]

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

Don't you know who interfered with the dams ? to save his province and rice.. I thought it was public knowledge. Just go inform yourself a bit and then you know that 2011 flooding was for a large caused by those actions. So yes I believe it. I lived through the flooding it affected me in a bad way so I did loads of research.

So what is the part you don't believe ?

I don't believe that Robblock of the internet, can understand the complex factors environmental and political of an incident which probably built over 9 months over two governments and across 1000's of km of land rained upon in many countries, yet you have narrowed it down to one politician saving his province and rice!!

And how have you got these caste iron facts of this political doing something, and how did that have the knock on affects that it did? Or was there just a huge amount if rain dumped that year? Given it flooded all over the country? was whatever rumour you are believing even a factor in it? Do you have any proof at all? Do you have any expertise to lean on which says this was the cause? Or are you just speculating because it suits your agenda?

For someone who understands these complex factors your sure seemed dim when you were whining that the Government did not tell you your area was going to flood. For such a professional in these complex matters i would have thought you would have foreseen the flooding.

Poor guy can't have it that his side is in the wrong. For sure a lot of rain fell and even here they blame politicians but hey you don't want to believe that. Do you really think they would not have mentioned this if the guy did not cause problems. It would have been a lot better if he had not done anything and if they had released the water when they wanted (the professionals) not when the politician wanted it. Therefor it made the flood worse.

And yes i whined a lot because of the lack of information there was then, but that was about the water movement. Not about the cause of the flood. As you know governments have satellites and small planes that can monitor the situation and they could have relayed that information to the public, however they did not because that was admitting their failure. Only after it was too late did they start giving out correct information.

But hey in your eyes YL did everything good. (p.s YL was not the politician I am talking about she just mishandled the situation together with Mr Propeller head an other one of your all star team)

[Baerboxer]

clearly the NACC needs to get on the stick and send more politicians to the rubber-stampers for impeachment.

Actually, Roblok is correct. A certain politician did what was necessary to protect his province and their rice harvests. The knock on effect was that large parts were then sacrificed and deliberately flooded to save certain "essential" parts of Bangkok. Violence broke out at some dams that had been hastily constructed. Eventually the army at to take charge of rescue and relief as PTP and the RTP couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery.

No surprises though - take decisions that suit your own agenda and stuff everyone else.

[smutcakes]

Poor guy can't have it that his side is in the wrong. For sure a lot of rain fell and even here they blame politicians but hey you don't want to believe that. Do you really think they would not have mentioned this if the guy did not cause problems. It would have been a lot better if he had not done anything and if they had released the water when they wanted (the professionals) not when the politician wanted it. Therefor it made the flood worse.

And yes i whined a lot because of the lack of information there was then, but that was about the water movement. Not about the cause of the flood. As you know governments have satellites and small planes that can monitor the situation and they could have relayed that information to the public, however they did not because that was admitting their failure. Only after it was too late did they start giving out correct information.

But hey in your eyes YL did everything good. (p.s YL was not the politician I am talking about she just mishandled the situation together with Mr Propeller head an other one of your all star team)

I am not even saying that political issues were not a factor. I am saying that you are making sweeping factual statements on the causes of the worst floods in more than half a century, where you have absolutely zero expertise or knowledge, other than relying on unsubstantiated and uncredited gossip on the internet!

Why don't you point us to your 'sources' on your politician rumour so others can assess their working/logic on it being the cause, and the credibility of the claims?

[Baerboxer]

Poor guy can't have it that his side is in the wrong. For sure a lot of rain fell and even here they blame politicians but hey you don't want to believe that. Do you really think they would not have mentioned this if the guy did not cause problems. It would have been a lot better if he had not done anything and if they had released the water when they wanted (the professionals) not when the politician wanted it. Therefor it made the flood worse.

Don't you know who interfered with the dams ? to save his province and rice.. I thought it was public knowledge. Just go inform yourself a bit and then you know that 2011 flooding was for a large caused by those actions. So yes I believe it. I lived through the flooding it affected me in a bad way so I did loads of research.

So what is the part you don't believe ?

I don't believe that Robblock of the internet, can understand the complex factors environmental and political of an incident which probably built over 9 months over two governments and across 1000's of km of land rained upon in many countries, yet you have narrowed it down to one politician saving his province and rice!!

And how have you got these caste iron facts of this political doing something, and how did that have the knock on affects that it did? Or was there just a huge amount if rain dumped that year? Given it flooded all over the country? was whatever rumour you are believing even a factor in it? Do you have any proof at all? Do you have any expertise to lean on which says this was the cause? Or are you just speculating because it suits your agenda?

For someone who understands these complex factors your sure seemed dim when you were whining that the Government did not tell you your area was going to flood. For such a professional in these complex matters i would have thought you would have foreseen the flooding.

And yes i whined a lot because of the lack of information there was then, but that was about the water movement. Not about the cause of the flood. As you know governments have satellites and small planes that can monitor the situation and they could have relayed that information to the public, however they did not because that was admitting their failure. Only after it was too late did they start giving out correct information.

But hey in your eyes YL did everything good. (p.s YL was not the politician I am talking about she just mishandled the situation together with Mr Propeller head an other one of your all star team)

The decision by a certain politician for delay the release of water to protect the interests in his province was well commented on at the time; and it was noted other "prominent" land owning families were also keen to make sure the harvest was in first. Regardless of the later effects on many others, they delayed action to suit themselves and made sure they'd cash in on the rice scheme high prices. This wasn't the only factor. But it did have serious consequences for some.

Yingluck repeatedly said there'd be no flooding in certain areas; then changed to some areas didn't mind being flooded to save Bangkok. She obviously only asked her mates.

Rob - he always tries this tactic. Confuse the issue with as many complications as possible, whilst adding sarcastic remarks trying to belittle the other poster. Of course he isn't a Thaksin Shin fan

[chainarong]

Any time anything stuffs up in Thailand you can bet the politicians are right there up to their eye balls in Excreta, there are some good guys in Thai Government departments and they know their stuff, so much for Ms Yingluck's flood mitigation programme, what ever that was.

[Baerboxer]

Any time anything stuffs up in Thailand you can bet the politicians are right there up to their eye balls in Excreta, there are some good guys in Thai Government departments and they know their stuff, so much for Ms Yingluck's flood mitigation programme, what ever that was.

Fair point. Thai politicians won't make decisions until they've weighed all aspects and alternatives carefully - to ensure the one that favors them or provides the biggest opportunities for exploitation for themselves is chosen.

The management of the floods exposed Yingluck's propensity to simply lie or refuse to comment. Something that never changed.

[wabothai]

money opens and closes the floodgates.

[eliotness]

Maybe Thailand differs from the rest of the world judging by the comments above. My take on it is that it seems that the "real experts" either didn't have the balls to tell whatever government that was in power at the time (there's been so many I loose track) what was the consequences of the different options or they were/are just a load of "yes men" with not enough real knowledge to fit their well paid, comfy jobs.

[Ulic]

The only thing I know for certain.........is it's someone else's fault.

[jesimps]

The only thing I know for certain.........is it's someone else's fault.

It's Thaksin's fault! Just thought I'd get that in before someone else did.

[ksamuiguy]

A experienced professional or Engineering job run by politicians, family, friends??

Is doomed to failure.

Water management is a profession, not a hobby.

[smutcakes]

Poor guy can't have it that his side is in the wrong. For sure a lot of rain fell and even here they blame politicians but hey you don't want to believe that. Do you really think they would not have mentioned this if the guy did not cause problems. It would have been a lot better if he had not done anything and if they had released the water when they wanted (the professionals) not when the politician wanted it. Therefor it made the flood worse.

Don't you know who interfered with the dams ? to save his province and rice.. I thought it was public knowledge. Just go inform yourself a bit and then you know that 2011 flooding was for a large caused by those actions. So yes I believe it. I lived through the flooding it affected me in a bad way so I did loads of research.

So what is the part you don't believe ?

I don't believe that Robblock of the internet, can understand the complex factors environmental and political of an incident which probably built over 9 months over two governments and across 1000's of km of land rained upon in many countries, yet you have narrowed it down to one politician saving his province and rice!!

And how have you got these caste iron facts of this political doing something, and how did that have the knock on affects that it did? Or was there just a huge amount if rain dumped that year? Given it flooded all over the country? was whatever rumour you are believing even a factor in it? Do you have any proof at all? Do you have any expertise to lean on which says this was the cause? Or are you just speculating because it suits your agenda?

For someone who understands these complex factors your sure seemed dim when you were whining that the Government did not tell you your area was going to flood. For such a professional in these complex matters i would have thought you would have foreseen the flooding.

And yes i whined a lot because of the lack of information there was then, but that was about the water movement. Not about the cause of the flood. As you know governments have satellites and small planes that can monitor the situation and they could have relayed that information to the public, however they did not because that was admitting their failure. Only after it was too late did they start giving out correct information.

But hey in your eyes YL did everything good. (p.s YL was not the politician I am talking about she just mishandled the situation together with Mr Propeller head an other one of your all star team)

The decision by a certain politician for delay the release of water to protect the interests in his province was well commented on at the time; and it was noted other "prominent" land owning families were also keen to make sure the harvest was in first. Regardless of the later effects on many others, they delayed action to suit themselves and made sure they'd cash in on the rice scheme high prices. This wasn't the only factor. But it did have serious consequences for some.

Yingluck repeatedly said there'd be no flooding in certain areas; then changed to some areas didn't mind being flooded to save Bangkok. She obviously only asked her mates.

Rob - he always tries this tactic. Confuse the issue with as many complications as possible, whilst adding sarcastic remarks trying to belittle the other poster. Of course he isn't a Thaksin Shin fan

So asking for someone to back up their claims that all the floods were caused by a politician up country, in a thread title blaming political interference for the floods is trying to confuse the issue? and is a tactic? It seems pretty relevant to the topic.

Ok as long as i know now that internet speculation/gossip should now be taken as factual information.

Edited July 1, 2015 by smutcakes

[Srikcir]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You're not sure if the NCPO overrides professionals?

Seriously?

Simple case in point. Agriculture Ministry orders 500 wells to be dug to relieve water shortage. Prayut then orders 1,000 wells to be dug. Nothing based on scientific hydrologic data. Why not dig 1,000 wells for 10x more water supply? That's the science of the Junta.

[Yme]

Niphon is an idiot. The lower Chao Phraya had already overflowed its banks by the time the 2011 election was held -- well before the PTP government was sworn in and well before the rice pledging scheme was introduced.

Thinking back to 2011 Mr Worraratprasert said “early flooding in the lower parts of the Chao Phraya River was due to unseasonal heavy rainfall in the Chao Phraya basin and the Chao Phraya River overflowing its banks. It had nothing to do with increased discharge from the Chao Phraya Dam.

Because of the higher river levels downstream we reduced as much as possible the flow from the dam so as to minimise the effects of people downstream” he said.

Thai Meteorological Department (TMD) records show that in the north rainfall in March 2011 was 344 per cent above the mean average, but it wasn’t until remnants of Tropical Storm Nock-ten flooded into northern Thailand that the situation started to become a worry.

This article throws a better light on the situation: Taming the Chao Phraya River & the 2011 Thailand Flood

[geriatrickid]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

He has to, otherwise the blame Yingluck strategy fails.

It is unfortunate that the reporter didn't point out that the reservoirs are typically at full capacity after one rainy season. 4 years have passed and during that time, there have been several floods. These floods were of course blamed on the former government. There were floods because the reservoirs were full and could not hold water. Now, all of a sudden this drought is caused by a lack of water from 4 1/2 years ago.

This expert is an illustration of why Thailand cannot manage its water resources. The whole lot of them are intellectually challenged.

[Ricardo]

Niphon is an idiot. The lower Chao Phraya had already overflowed its banks by the time the 2011 election was held -- well before the PTP government was sworn in and well before the rice pledging scheme was introduced.

I think you're ignoring the fact that the same regional-politician was in charge, part of his price for being in coalition & lending his support (first with the Dems & then with PTP), both before and after the election and also through the inter-regnum period.

PTP were not in sole charge, they chose to form a coalition, even although they didn't need one to govern. They chose to let him continue.

IIRC he was promising his voters pre-election that they would have plenty of water for their current & future rice-growing (with PTP's rice-price-promise to boost their profits), so 'vote-for-me', part of his own platform for re-election. He was indeed re-elected, and continued to manage the release of water, throughout that year.

I would suggest that PTP were unprepared for the floods, also agree that there were already problems when they came to power, which their incompetence only made even worse, remember the thousand boats/ships being paid to use their propellers to push the waters upstream ? The science of idiots !

But political interference in the release of water from dams definitely contributed IMO.

[robblok]

“The problem was that water management then was in the hands of politicians not the professionals,” said Mr Niphon.

So now its in the hands of soldiers and not the professionals. Are we any better off?

Thanks to those politicians aligned with the PTP (not PTP itself) my home was flooded. Had they not opened the dams like that now there would have been far more water.

Also the rice pledging made sure that more water was needed as people wanted to plant rice.. so yes the guy is right that its because of politicians.

As for your remark now its in the hands of soldiers.. I am not sure if they override the professionals.. if so its just as bad.

You really believe what you say?

He has to, otherwise the blame Yingluck strategy fails.

It is unfortunate that the reporter didn't point out that the reservoirs are typically at full capacity after one rainy season. 4 years have passed and during that time, there have been several floods. These floods were of course blamed on the former government. There were floods because the reservoirs were full and could not hold water. Now, all of a sudden this drought is caused by a lack of water from 4 1/2 years ago.

This expert is an illustration of why Thailand cannot manage its water resources. The whole lot of them are intellectually challenged.

As others have stated, the dams were getting full but water could be released (was a better time as later on) However the politician interfered and water was not released compounding the problem later.

Then we had the mismanagement of YL who said there would be no flooding while she had small planes and satelites to give updates to the public but did not because that would have been admitting faillure and many were unprepared because of this. In this village what used to be reasonable red we knew who to blame. The ones who like me were stuck there discussed it and found it crazy that YL said no flooding and had not given us the true information that should have been available (the water did not go fast and if she had used planes and satelites she could have told the public) Instead she kept it silent and many were unprepared.

Then who saved the day.. the army, i recall them fondly helping us who were flooded. I also remember the myths about Thaksin his pumps and the relabeling of relief packages.

But hey red-sighted members can't see this. Red sighted members also can't see that the rice pledging program increased the amount of water that was used. Logic really escapes them.

Ill make it simple

rice program increased the rice crop

more rice = more water use

more water use = less water in dams

follow it ?