Thailand should forget its love affair with submarines

[magnacarta]

All they need to do is copy the" Philidelphia Experiment".Now you see them now you don't,a bit like the rice in storage.I know the guy who has the patent,bids in brown envelopes only.

[Colabamumbai]

Don't they need them to search for "Boat People."?

[chuang]

All sum up in one word...KICKBACK....

[jaywalker]

I doubt they could maintain a fleet of Hunley Class submarines.

C.S.A Hunley

Edited July 3, 2015 by jaywalker

[h90]

But why? they're so cute, and China is offering 3 for the price of one, and running and maintaining

subs is so easy and cheap, just like the aircraft carrier they have, and beside, how are the glorious

navy of Thailand going to fight the Cambodian and those pesky insurgents in the south without

the use of submarines?.....

They could also use it against Demonstrations in Bangkok....when the Demonstrations and the flooding is at the same time

[magnacarta]

Although the stated reason for the subs is 'deterrent', there may be political pressure from China to see Thailand equipped with such weapons. Subs offer a strategic advantage that few nations can match. Thai subs may be part of China's 'string of pearls' strategy, who knows.

is there a hidden meaning in "string of pearls".

[pisico]

Unusual to see such a sensible article in the Thai media, the RTN has yet to make any case to the taxpayers, for these proposed new toys.

The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion, the subs were totally useless, and one fears that these will prove to be the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchanu-class_submarine

If there's a need for fisheries-surveillance, or patrolling shallow coastal waters, then patrol-boats or frigates would surely be more effective and better value-for-money than these submarines, or is it time to introduce surveillance-drones for coastal-use ?

If it's about corruption or backhanders to the military, which I hope-against-hope that it isn't, then at least get the brown-envelopes from buying something which you need !

CORRECTION:

QUOTE: "The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion,

Back during the times of Phibulsongkran, Japan and Thailand signed a treaty of military and defence cooperation. The reason Thailand declared war to the UK and USA, thus aligning with Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany.

The Japanese army was an invited guest of Thailand.

This is a historical fact that the vast majority of Thais and die-hard pro Thailand fans prefer to ignore..

[MoonShadow]

The news article makes sense.

Thailand has no need for submarines

Correct, the Gulf of Thailand is unsuitable for submarine operations because of its shallow depth. It therefore follows that any "aggressor" would also know this and not commit Submarines to the Gulf.

The Anderman side is deeper but what major facilities and trade routes are 'in danger 'there? Phuket is the only deep water port on that side I believe. Enhanced anti-submarine capable surface vessels are a better investment and deterent than costly Submarines.

[jaywalker]

All sum up in one word...KICKBACK....

I used to work with the Thai Army, Air Farce & Marines.....Never did deal w/ the Navy though I doubt they are any different.

We were specifically dealing with maintenance contracts thru the local BKK agent.

We'd just left an Army facility & it was BAD. We arrived at the Air Force facility and the agent says, "Air Force have much better place because Air Force Chief not take so much money like Army".

Both places had horrible maintenance schedules though "No hab budget".

They asked me to inspect a couple dozen trucks headed for Sudan as part of a UN mission.

About half were DEADLINE. Brake calipers were leaking!!!!!!!!! Steering linkage about to fall apart, engines & transmissions leaking out the wazoo.

They painted them white w/ UN markings, put new Thai tires on them & re-upholstered the seats and sent them off on a mission.......not one damned thing was ever done to the drive trains.

[magnacarta]

Unusual to see such a sensible article in the Thai media, the RTN has yet to make any case to the taxpayers, for these proposed new toys.

The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion, the subs were totally useless, and one fears that these will prove to be the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchanu-class_submarine

If there's a need for fisheries-surveillance, or patrolling shallow coastal waters, then patrol-boats or frigates would surely be more effective and better value-for-money than these submarines, or is it time to introduce surveillance-drones for coastal-use ?

If it's about corruption or backhanders to the military, which I hope-against-hope that it isn't, then at least get the brown-envelopes from buying something which you need !

CORRECTION:

QUOTE: "The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion,

Back during the times of Phibulsongkran, Japan and Thailand signed a treaty of military and defence cooperation. The reason Thailand declared war to the UK and USA, thus aligning with Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany.

The Japanese army was an invited guest of Thailand.

This is a historical fact that the vast majority of Thais and die-hard pro Thailand fans prefer to ignore..

A little bit of research will also disclose where the vip's were during that little kerfuffle.But who am i to get in the way of facts.

[ratcatcher]

Although the stated reason for the subs is 'deterrent', there may be political pressure from China to see Thailand equipped with such weapons. Subs offer a strategic advantage that few nations can match. Thai subs may be part of China's 'string of pearls' strategy, who knows.

is there a hidden meaning in "string of pearls".

No. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_%28Indian_Ocean%29

If OTOH you are thinking of a pearl necklace, then you are spending too much time watching porn.

[Ricardo]

Unusual to see such a sensible article in the Thai media, the RTN has yet to make any case to the taxpayers, for these proposed new toys.

The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion, the subs were totally useless, and one fears that these will prove to be the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchanu-class_submarine

If there's a need for fisheries-surveillance, or patrolling shallow coastal waters, then patrol-boats or frigates would surely be more effective and better value-for-money than these submarines, or is it time to introduce surveillance-drones for coastal-use ?

If it's about corruption or backhanders to the military, which I hope-against-hope that it isn't, then at least get the brown-envelopes from buying something which you need !

CORRECTION:

QUOTE: "The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion,

Back during the times of Phibulsongkran, Japan and Thailand signed a treaty of military and defence cooperation. The reason Thailand declared war to the UK and USA, thus aligning with Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany.

The Japanese army was an invited guest of Thailand.

This is a historical fact that the vast majority of Thais and die-hard pro Thailand fans prefer to ignore..

When the Japanese troops stormed ashore at Prachuap Kiri Khan, the local Thais fought back, there's a small museum on the airbase there, to the memory of the Thais who died resisting the invasion, before their ammunition ran low and orders to surrender arrived..

I was also thinking of the Franco-Thai War, of which the link I posted says :-

"the submarines conducted reconnaissance in the Gulf of Thailand. However, they were unable to prevent a surprise French naval raid, which resulted in heavy Thai naval losses at the Battle of Ko Chang on 17 January 1941. Following the battle, the submarines were sent to patrol the vicinity of Ream Naval Base in present-day Cambodia,^[7] but no further naval clashes took place and Japan negotiated soon an end to the war."

[Rimmer]

A post has been removed:

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

[quandow]

OMG - It's Friday and no "seamen" jokes have surfaced?

[The Deerhunter]

If I could ask the cabinet one question, it would be this: Does the navy have any intelligence on the ANTI-submarine capabilities of its neighbours?

Your question is too long. Try "Does the navy have any intelligence?" For heaven's sake, what does the RTN need submarines for? What threat do they provide a solution to? It has got to be for ego, nothing more. I haven't been watching lately but what big ticket items have the Army & airforce got lately that the navy feels hard-done-by & needs to match for ego salvation?

[JAG]

Although the stated reason for the subs is 'deterrent', there may be political pressure from China to see Thailand equipped with such weapons. Subs offer a strategic advantage that few nations can match. Thai subs may be part of China's 'string of pearls' strategy, who knows.

is there a hidden meaning in "string of pearls".

No. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_%28Indian_Ocean%29

If OTOH you are thinking of a pearl necklace, then you are spending too much time watching porn.

Given that this whole affair is likely to involve the Thai taxpayers being thoroughly shafted, the analogy is not that far wide of the mark though!

[pisico]

Unusual to see such a sensible article in the Thai media, the RTN has yet to make any case to the taxpayers, for these proposed new toys.

The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion, the subs were totally useless, and one fears that these will prove to be the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchanu-class_submarine

If there's a need for fisheries-surveillance, or patrolling shallow coastal waters, then patrol-boats or frigates would surely be more effective and better value-for-money than these submarines, or is it time to introduce surveillance-drones for coastal-use ?

If it's about corruption or backhanders to the military, which I hope-against-hope that it isn't, then at least get the brown-envelopes from buying something which you need !

CORRECTION:

QUOTE: "The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion,

Back during the times of Phibulsongkran, Japan and Thailand signed a treaty of military and defence cooperation. The reason Thailand declared war to the UK and USA, thus aligning with Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany.

The Japanese army was an invited guest of Thailand.

This is a historical fact that the vast majority of Thais and die-hard pro Thailand fans prefer to ignore..

When the Japanese troops stormed ashore at Prachuap Kiri Khan, the local Thais fought back, there's a small museum on the airbase there, to the memory of the Thais who died resisting the invasion, before their ammunition ran low and orders to surrender arrived..

I was also thinking of the Franco-Thai War, of which the link I posted says :-

"the submarines conducted reconnaissance in the Gulf of Thailand. However, they were unable to prevent a surprise French naval raid, which resulted in heavy Thai naval losses at the Battle of Ko Chang on 17 January 1941. Following the battle, the submarines were sent to patrol the vicinity of Ream Naval Base in present-day Cambodia,^[7] but no further naval clashes took place and Japan negotiated soon an end to the war."

QUOTE: "When the Japanese troops stormed ashore at Prachuap Kiri Khan,"

You are mentioning this bit of true historical fact although, you leave out the real reason for such armed reaction from the Thai Police, not the army. They were not in the loop.

Bear in mind that back in the late 30s and early 40s communications were not what they are today. There was not a widespread statement from the dictator Phibulsongkran that Thailand had signed a treaty with Japan. There is no need to be a Thai apologist when historical facts are so plentiful and easy to obtain. The Japanese were not invading: they were disembarking per the alliance of Thailand and Japan.

The Japanese did not storm.

The detail of Thai Police at the time in Kiri khan was a sleepy, arcane, feudal local operation of appointed and politically bought members of that corp.

If you live in Bangkok (or visit) go to the intersection of Charansanitwong and Phran Nok (know as Saam-jet-fai-chai) and you will see under the pedrestrians overpass a plaque stating that the "Site bears that name, where the high power search lights were installed to spot the Allies bombers that were bombing Bangkok."

Of course, there is no mention that Thailand had joined the Axis (Germany, Italy and Japan) and had declared war to the UK and USA.

Yes, I know, the usual apologists will say that one ambassador refused to deliver the declaration of war but... Their boss Field Marshall Phibulsongkran signed the treaty with Japan and one of the requirements was to declare war to the enemies of Japan. Khanchanaburi and the Railroad Of Death came soon thereafter. British and Aussie prisoners of war know this bit of history better than most.

[wabothai]

Opposition to the ridiculous deal is not tolerated. The generals can do as they please.

Am glad with the article, at least someone openly opposes, and possibly facing an attitude adjustment.

THAILAND HAS NO NEED FOR SUBMARINES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chilli42]

The entire concept of a military to defend the country from foreign invasion, at least in the case of Thailand and its ASEAN, neighbors is delusional. If the Chinese, Japanese or Indians ever wanted to play hardball the boys in green woukd be running for the hills and those expensive submarines woukd be collecting rust on the bottom of the ocean. Get real! Spend the money on getting a decent education system rather than pandering to the ego's of the military.

[mmh8]

 

All sum up in one word...KICKBACK....

I used to work with the Thai Army, Air Farce & Marines.....Never did deal w/ the Navy though I doubt they are any different.

We were specifically dealing with maintenance contracts thru the local BKK agent.

We'd just left an Army facility & it was BAD. We arrived at the Air Force facility and the agent says, "Air Force have much better place because Air Force Chief not take so much money like Army".

Both places had horrible maintenance schedules though "No hab budget".

They asked me to inspect a couple dozen trucks headed for Sudan as part of a UN mission.

About half were DEADLINE. Brake calipers were leaking!!!!!!!!! Steering linkage about to fall apart, engines & transmissions leaking out the wazoo.

They painted them white w/ UN markings, put new Thai tires on them & re-upholstered the seats and sent them off on a mission.......not one damned thing was ever done to the drive trains.

 

did you ask them if they had ever heard of preventative maintainance? yeah we pay that every month

[Toknarok]

I wouldn't be surprised that with the cost of the recently opened 'submarine base', the actual cost of the boats, training crews, maintenance and upkeep, running costs etc over the next few years, that the total amount of money wasted will equal that lost through the failed rice scheme.

[jcisco]

Although the stated reason for the subs is 'deterrent', there may be political pressure from China to see Thailand equipped with such weapons. Subs offer a strategic advantage that few nations can match. Thai subs may be part of China's 'string of pearls' strategy, who knows.

is there a hidden meaning in "string of pearls".

No. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_%28Indian_Ocean%29

If OTOH you are thinking of a pearl necklace, then you are spending too much time watching porn.

I pre laminated car glass......

[Doc46]

A stupid thought crossed my mind,,,,They are not going to lease them out to the top drug smugglers are they? If so they could make a lot of money,, Than ,, when they made enough money to pay for them than they could confiscate them an let the Navy play Hide and Seek!

[jcisco]

A stupid thought crossed my mind,,,,They are not going to lease them out to the top drug smugglers are they? If so they could make a lot of money,, Than ,, when they made enough money to pay for them than they could confiscate them an let the Navy play Hide and Seek!

The border with mynmar was closed for 4 decades without a road between Thailand and mynmar that wasnt an illicit, persons, timber, drug etc service road. And the army, police and border police where not able to seal it against smuggling. Now the bridge is up and all the traffic is concentrated they still cannot stop the drugs.

The smugglers dont need a submarine....

[mojorison]

The notion of Thailand with subs is laughable. (A good hiding place for the generals though when the proverbial hits the fan, as it assuredly will). The average depth of the Gulf of Thailand is 58 meters and that would pose a very serious risk to the most unskilled, inept navy this side of Neptune...for the love of god or any other deity/imaginary friend, please bungle around the Andaman side... and pray the Indians don't blow you out of the water.

[GinBoy2]

Thank God Suthep is coming out of the monkhood, he can get the band back together, march on Bangkok demanding an end to populist & corrupt policies, shut down Government and demand reform

...oh wait, this doesn't count does it???? LOL

Edited July 3, 2015 by GinBoy2

[Ricardo]

Unusual to see such a sensible article in the Thai media, the RTN has yet to make any case to the taxpayers, for these proposed new toys.

The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion, the subs were totally useless, and one fears that these will prove to be the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchanu-class_submarine

If there's a need for fisheries-surveillance, or patrolling shallow coastal waters, then patrol-boats or frigates would surely be more effective and better value-for-money than these submarines, or is it time to introduce surveillance-drones for coastal-use ?

If it's about corruption or backhanders to the military, which I hope-against-hope that it isn't, then at least get the brown-envelopes from buying something which you need !

CORRECTION:

QUOTE: "The only time they previously bought/operated submarines, just prior to the Japanese invasion,

Back during the times of Phibulsongkran, Japan and Thailand signed a treaty of military and defence cooperation. The reason Thailand declared war to the UK and USA, thus aligning with Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany.

The Japanese army was an invited guest of Thailand.

This is a historical fact that the vast majority of Thais and die-hard pro Thailand fans prefer to ignore..

When the Japanese troops stormed ashore at Prachuap Kiri Khan, the local Thais fought back, there's a small museum on the airbase there, to the memory of the Thais who died resisting the invasion, before their ammunition ran low and orders to surrender arrived..

I was also thinking of the Franco-Thai War, of which the link I posted says :-

"the submarines conducted reconnaissance in the Gulf of Thailand. However, they were unable to prevent a surprise French naval raid, which resulted in heavy Thai naval losses at the Battle of Ko Chang on 17 January 1941. Following the battle, the submarines were sent to patrol the vicinity of Ream Naval Base in present-day Cambodia,^[7] but no further naval clashes took place and Japan negotiated soon an end to the war."

QUOTE: "When the Japanese troops stormed ashore at Prachuap Kiri Khan,"

You are mentioning this bit of true historical fact although, you leave out the real reason for such armed reaction from the Thai Police, not the army. They were not in the loop.

Bear in mind that back in the late 30s and early 40s communications were not what they are today. There was not a widespread statement from the dictator Phibulsongkran that Thailand had signed a treaty with Japan. There is no need to be a Thai apologist when historical facts are so plentiful and easy to obtain. The Japanese were not invading: they were disembarking per the alliance of Thailand and Japan.

The Japanese did not storm.

The detail of Thai Police at the time in Kiri khan was a sleepy, arcane, feudal local operation of appointed and politically bought members of that corp.

If you live in Bangkok (or visit) go to the intersection of Charansanitwong and Phran Nok (know as Saam-jet-fai-chai) and you will see under the pedrestrians overpass a plaque stating that the "Site bears that name, where the high power search lights were installed to spot the Allies bombers that were bombing Bangkok."

Of course, there is no mention that Thailand had joined the Axis (Germany, Italy and Japan) and had declared war to the UK and USA.

Yes, I know, the usual apologists will say that one ambassador refused to deliver the declaration of war but... Their boss Field Marshall Phibulsongkran signed the treaty with Japan and one of the requirements was to declare war to the enemies of Japan. Khanchanaburi and the Railroad Of Death came soon thereafter. British and Aussie prisoners of war know this bit of history better than most.

"for such armed reaction from the Thai Police"

According to this entry on Wiki, not I agree always a perfect source, the resistance was led by the RTAF from the airbase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prachuap_Khiri_Khan

You seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about apologists, if you don't mind my saying, just to point out that I don't think I myself am one.

But I can see the irony of Thailand being sold submarines by Japan, who then invaded/occupied the country, and the RTN now wanting to buy subs from China, who I suspect are also now trying to extend their influence of the region, hopefully through commerce & investment rather than by Military might !

[ratcatcher]

Although the stated reason for the subs is 'deterrent', there may be political pressure from China to see Thailand equipped with such weapons. Subs offer a strategic advantage that few nations can match. Thai subs may be part of China's 'string of pearls' strategy, who knows.

is there a hidden meaning in "string of pearls".

No. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_%28Indian_Ocean%29

If OTOH you are thinking of a pearl necklace, then you are spending too much time watching porn.

I pre laminated car glass......

"I pre laminated car glass...... '

[JAG]

The entire concept of a military to defend the country from foreign invasion, at least in the case of Thailand and its ASEAN, neighbors is delusional. If the Chinese, Japanese or Indians ever wanted to play hardball the boys in green woukd be running for the hills and those expensive submarines woukd be collecting rust on the bottom of the ocean. Get real! Spend the money on getting a decent education system rather than pandering to the ego's of the military.

The Thai military does not exist to defend the country from an external enemy. It exists to serve itself and preserve the wealth status and power of a small section of the population. If the purchase goes through it buys the loyalty of the Navy for a few years. This is all about the procurement process and its ahem benefits. That is why they are buying Chinese.

If they never go to sea it really does not matter, as long as they have some footage of one submerging to splice into the film they show with the national anthem on TV.

Edited July 3, 2015 by JAG

[Shaunduhpostman]

How about a submarine sandwich, ever try one of those? They're great!