Farang Long Stayers Criminal

[serpentine]

Perspective please. The majority of farang visa hoppers are simply enjoying Thailand for all it has to offer for tourists. It is a country built on such tourism........the back packer. just because thousands of tourists take advantage of visa runs doesn't make them "vermin". Many posts are suggesting that if you come overland you are an undesirable. That is so outrageously snobby. Look at this country and the gap between rick Bangkokians and Isan rice farmers. If these new visa rules prevail some foreigners working illegally will be filtered out of the system, but the effects on all the bacpackers, long stayers, investers, retirees and even barflys will leave millions of thais wondering where all the money went. The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month. Why does Thailand want to make life more difficult for a very small minority who have helped this country shine in the region?

[meom]

The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month.

So how much you reckon an average backpacker spends in a year?

Maybe things have changed nowadays but when I was backpacking in the 70's I basically hit the road without money or credit card and lived on hand-outs, the odd job and food leftover in garbage cans. I was indeed a poverty packer

[serpentine]

Good for you. That is how my back packing days began in the late 80's too. However I own business on a very back packer island and the average backpacker nowadays is not the same as before. They buy things (apart from essentials) and are not afraid to blow a few grand (baht) on a night out. They are generally on the road for a lot less time, they don't travel across the globe, but rather perhaps focus on a region and they leave home with more money. Gone are the days of hitting the road with no money. I know a few artists that manage to pull it off. That's about it.

This new backpacker breed has found Thailand very user friendly. it is by far one of the most popular destinations these days. maybe they are not as adventurous as we were but they bring in heaps of foreign currency into Thailand.

[kayo]

Backpackers help sustain the economy.

They do NOT spend half as much as you imply, however.

I`ve worked the backpacker in LOS, Melbourne, Amsterdam, and now Guatemala, for a total of nearly 10 years now.

They are the cheapest scum on the planet.

Even the most disagreeable dirty pit of the earth thai-dutch-ozzie-chapin (guate local)- when he goes out, spends more than a backpacker spends in a week.

That applies to the younger ones though. Older (more mature?) travelers I box differently, cos I like `em. They are the ones who buy the good liquors, take a more comfotable bungalow, whatever. They spend more. But for me, more importantly, they live to a quiality they`ve set for themselves. That I respect in any person.

But yer LP-er ... Ugh!

[serpentine]

Let's not judge a bloke for treading carefully with money so he can see the world. Admirable I think. They are not all dirty! ha har.

Thing is the dirtiest scumiest smelliest backpacker is the man who discovered this country as a destination for long term traveling in the late 70's and early 80's and many of them have returned 10 times, bringing their families and now staying in more upmarket resorts etc.

Some of them are 40 years plus and still living like a cheap back packer. Idon't see why the thai government thinks that makes them undesirable.

I have always found travellers (as opposed to the average two week holiday maker) much more sensative to the culture, less likely to get in a fight with locals etc. They spend money over a longer period. Short term holiday makers are often demanding and rude because they have to squash all their yearly fun into ten days.

I don't think Thailand should envoke new visa laws that turn it's back on the sector of travellers that liturally built this countries foreign image, and mostly in a very positive way.

By the way, I am not one of these people. But I sure miss those days.

[taxexile]

these new rules wont affect backpackers , they will still be able to come to your guest house and buy their bottled water and five straws like before.

and if a barfly could manage to stay sober for ten minutes , then even he should have no difficulty figuring out how to work around the regulations.

its all a big fuss about nothing.

[serpentine]

My business is up scale. Beyond the reach of real back packers. That doesn't make me want to see them disappear from Tld. Sure, the average legit BP will keep coming, but the word on the international grape vine will make the country as a whole look less attractive to those who are in no hurry to leave. The visa policy may have a sensible aim, but I think with all the confusion a lot of people will be pissed off.

[meom]

This new backpacker breed has found Thailand very user friendly. it is by far one of the most popular destinations these days. maybe they are not as adventurous as we were but they bring in heaps of foreign currency into Thailand.

Fair enough although I'm wondering about the economics.

My guestimate would be that the average backpacker spends around 500baht a day or 182500/year if they stay all year.

I guess the average (sex) tourist spends about 5000baht a day or 70000 on a 2-week holiday.

It seems to me there's a lot more average tourists than backpackers so all in all the financial contribution of back packers is minimal.

[Thaiquila]

I am getting a little annoyed at this.

If we are talking mainly about YOUNGER backpackers, surely this is a wonderful thing, for young people from all over the world experiencing world travel. Some of these young people grow up to be world leaders and at the very least monied middle age people who come back and spend more money.

Please lets not fall into the trap of thinking that money is everything!

Edited September 17, 2006 by Thaiquila

[kayo]

these new rules wont affect backpackers , they will still be able to come to your guest house and buy their bottled water and five straws like before.

and if a barfly could manage to stay sober for ten minutes , then even he should have no difficulty figuring out how to work around the regulations.

its all a big fuss about nothing.

you`ve a good memory, my young padawan

agreed, much ado about nothing.

[serpentine]

What difference does it make if the back packer spends it over a longer period? The money is still injected into the economy, and with less social damage than Mr Sex Pest.

[meom]

I am getting a little annoyed at this.

If we are talking mainly about YOUNGER backpackers, surely this is a wonderful thing, for young people from all over the world experiencing world travel. Some of these young people grow up to be world leaders and at the very least monied middle age people who come back and spend more money.

Please lets not fall into the trap of thinking that money is everything!

Agree with you that backpacking is a great thing to do for young people although you can question how many wats and fool moon parties you have to experience before you can grow into in a monied middle aged world leader.

Immigration thinks 90 days should set you free while others obviously need more time

[khall64au]

From recent TAT statistics it looks lke the "average" tourist is spending 8 days in Thailand. Most of these tourists are from Asian economies, some are cheaper to mid-range western tourists. All are welcome, of course!

On the long-term "tourist" in Thailand: most spend an absolute minimum of 50, 000 baht per month. Multiply that by a year... or 2 or 3 - and then add the spends of their family & friends who come to visit... many stay and buy property, cars, furniture, plus, plus, plus, etc.... it's a domino effect!!!!!

We all know the equations. It's just mind-boggling that the sums are not recognised where they should be.....

[opebo]

What difference does it make if the back packer spends it over a longer period? The money is still injected into the economy, and with less social damage than Mr Sex Pest.

What 'social damage' does the sex tourist cause, serpentine? If we did not visit, the women would be selling their services to Thais instead, and it isn't as if the parts in question wear out.

Of course I suppose if you are a Thai monger you would resent the competition driving the price up?

Otherwise I can't see what this 'social damage is to which you refer.

[John K]

I can say very comfortably that most everyone here on a tourist visa long term has had or tried to get some other visa. The 4 Thais per 1 work permit is a bit of a wall for many. Some companies simply can’t make that happen because of size and market. The fact that many (not all) Thai schools try to avoid the legal necessity so someone can pocket part or all of that earmarked money. There are people who are semi retired and run their offshore business from Thailand. That is not illegal by Thai laws because it is not wrong to give instructions to people via email or phone who are in another country. It is the same as telling your stock broker to buy or sell stock. They are making money but it all off shore and does not require their physical presence. Yes there are those who are very accurately described by the Thais, but not many. The fact is the vast majority of people that will have to leave are in a way victims of Thai laws and corruption. I don’t know how many teacher who have said “I am still waiting for my work permit/ non b visa, it has been x months now.” From my experience if it is done properly the whole process takes about 8 to 10 days. Simply there is dirty on both sides of the coin. If they don’t clean both sides it will be an unsuccessful and costly venture. Not your average criminal.

[serpentine]

Agreed! Maybe the thai gov needs to look at the figures. In the end almost al farang visa runners are probably beneficial to the country in one way or another. manywork without the documents required simply because the process is hijacked by locals with vested interests.

[fxm88]

Maybe things have changed nowadays but when I was backpacking in the 70's I basically hit the road without money or credit card and lived on hand-outs, the odd job and food leftover in garbage cans. I was indeed a poverty packer

This lifestyle goes by a number of names, "homelessness" and "vagrancy" spring to mind. "Hoboism" at a stretch. It does not, however, fit the commonly agreed upon definition of "Backpacker".

[naka]

Perspective please. The majority of farang visa hoppers are simply enjoying Thailand for all it has to offer for tourists. It is a country built on such tourism........the back packer. just because thousands of tourists take advantage of visa runs doesn't make them "vermin". Many posts are suggesting that if you come overland you are an undesirable. That is so outrageously snobby. Look at this country and the gap between rick Bangkokians and Isan rice farmers. If these new visa rules prevail some foreigners working illegally will be filtered out of the system, but the effects on all the bacpackers, long stayers, investers, retirees and even barflys will leave millions of thais wondering where all the money went. The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month. Why does Thailand want to make life more difficult for a very small minority who have helped this country shine in the region?

Agree.

Today's backpackers are tomorrows movers, shakers and captain's of industry.

The mere fact they have the guts to travel the way they do, and on a limited budget

sets them apart from

the ordinary,unimaginative, probably much less well educated joe's.

I did the Cape Town to Cairo overland thing in the 70's when I was 19. And I

did it on my lonesome.

Naka.

Edited September 18, 2006 by naka

[LoveDaBlues]

these new rules wont affect backpackers , they will still be able to come to your guest house and buy their bottled water and five straws like before.

and if a barfly could manage to stay sober for ten minutes , then even he should have no difficulty figuring out how to work around the regulations.

its all a big fuss about nothing.

I don't like the BP'ers but they have a right to be here; UNLESS they fall into the category below.

The farang I want out are the ones that make the monthly border run, don't have a WP, don't want to work, don't have any money. To survive they must scam, harrass, sell drugs or commit some other crimes. They are not good for Thailand and not good for the farang image.

FARANG CRIMS OUT OF THAILAND.

[Backpack_thailand]

Backpackers are a different breed than they were 10 years ago. There are now very few "bumming around" types with no money. Just see how many travellers now have laptops, mobile phones, credit cards etc.

With these new visa problems, the general view would be that these travelling people will just spend less time in LOS. Why worry about getting in and out of Thailand when there's so many other places to explore. Malaysia, Laos, Vietnam...

If somebody planned to do Thailand for 6-9 months then they would now maybe just do 3 months and then go elsewhere. Travellers are "free spirits" and don't really need the hassle.

This WILL cost Thailand a lot of lost tourism revenue. You wouldn't believe the number of emails we've had this last week or so asking about the new rules!!

[loveandlaughter]

The very same equation was put forth by I think the managing director of Diethelm (possibly the biggest travel/import co in Thailand) or a big hotel on the BBC's programme Fast Track when they were broadcasting from Thailand.

The Tourism Authorities have been looking to go upscale for quite a few years. They feel they have grown out of backpackers and gap year students. That doesn't also mean they automatically turn to single male sex tourists either.......

However to my mind the big change to backpacking/travelling might be that with the internet the youngsters now carry their home like a comfort blanket with them. In the old days you had post restante which you had to work out in advance, so in Thailand it was arrive Bangkok go to the GPO catch up with the mail and then no more for a month or two......

Now how lonely is the planet? If you don't find a friend or get somewhere away from it all, you can spend your time writing home to the friends you left behind. What made travel - rather like boarding school - a growth experience was that you had to become self reliant, on a wing and a prayer you flung yourself on the mercy of total strangers to sink or swim.

When you do that how can you afford to be arrogant and treat the world as your servant?

Sure everyone brings in money, but the authorities don't see it as so much, otherwise why is the "show and tell" for 30 days only 10,000 baht?

Besides there is a lot of amongst the youngsters, perhaps as our western culture gets more and more self centred. For most thais who are brought up still to respect elders and not get out of hand the young farangs are seen as a poor influence. Look at the social control the government tries to exercise........bar closing was not only about farangs but targetted at underage or young drinkers.

Possibly way off topic here, but think about it.......

There are always two sides to every story.

Final say, look at "The Beach" idea.....the only thing they made different in was that it was exclusive and they did their own washing up!!!! Change the world

Backpacker today more rightly translates as budget tourist.

[loveandlaughter]

Backpack Thailand......

Maybe good thing.

Lao you could hike through the northern hills - a la Devla Murphy - and the Vietnamese well they were not so easy going some years ago......

One of the best times I had was cycling in China

Thailand is far too easy! A Lonely Planet means no guidebook no 7-11 That will give 'em some soul.......

Makes me want to travel thinking about it

[camerata]

What made travel - rather like boarding school - a growth experience was that you had to become self reliant, on a wing and a prayer you flung yourself on the mercy of total strangers to sink or swim.

When you do that how can you afford to be arrogant and treat the world as your servant?

Backpacker today more rightly translates as budget tourist.

My thoughts exactly. Backpacking today ain't like it was on the Hippie Trail in the 60s. We didn't have credit cards and laptops in those days.

[ray23]

Thailand has immigration laws like anyothre country, they certainly have a right oot enforce them. I don't see this aimed at backpackers, will they suffer probably.Will people who don't qaulify for other visas sufffer probably, but did anyone come here not knowning that this was a possibility.

My first research showed me that thing could go wriong easliy in planning a retiremetn here when you don't qqaulify for long term visa. I made a choice I waited until did qualify. Was that what I wanted to do, no not at all. But it seemed like the most logical decesion the circumtanes I was in. I had way to much to lose if things on tourist visas changed.

It has always appeared to be dangerous to come here underfunded, in the hopes of scraping out a living here. But you know everyone had access to the same information that I had and they made thier own decesions.

I think it is sad that a young kid can't get a real taste of Thailand, but can they or not. My understanding is the can still get more then the innitial tourist visa. There are other countires to travel in the region not just Thialand. Touring somewhere no matter what your budget is different then taking up residence. I don't see that a back packer or any othre tourist has been denied the availablity of touring this country.

Personally I have no problems with anyone who comes here and takes care of himself and doesn't get involved in illegal activities. But it is not me decesion, it is Thailands. Personally I wish my home country would show as much courage.

Now the reality is we have to wait and see where this all really ends up, we won't know that for at least six months. This is Thailand (TT) writing laws espeecially with a huge elsection right around the corner and how they are enforced my very well be two different things.

I feel sorry for the people who have created a life here with it threatened now, but you had to know

[BKKGuitar]

The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month.

So how much you reckon an average backpacker spends in a year?

Maybe things have changed nowadays but when I was backpacking in the 70's I basically hit the road without money or credit card and lived on hand-outs, the odd job and food leftover in garbage cans. I was indeed a poverty packer

The typical backpacker is a rich kid, spending his/her parents' money--don't be fooled by the dreadlocks and tattoos, they have some serious financing. If you're not from a wealthy family, you *don't even think* of travelling the world. I think many of them are pretending to be like you were when you were travelling.

[Beavis and Butthead]

Backpackers are a different breed than they were 10 years ago. There are now very few "bumming around" types with no money. Just see how many travellers now have laptops, mobile phones, credit cards etc.

With these new visa problems, the general view would be that these travelling people will just spend less time in LOS. Why worry about getting in and out of Thailand when there's so many other places to explore. Malaysia, Laos, Vietnam...

If somebody planned to do Thailand for 6-9 months then they would now maybe just do 3 months and then go elsewhere. Travellers are "free spirits" and don't really need the hassle.

This WILL cost Thailand a lot of lost tourism revenue. You wouldn't believe the number of emails we've had this last week or so asking about the new rules!!

I'm sure that Back Packers are not addicted to Thailand. There's a lot of other places they can go cheaper (which IS what they care about). Thailand will lose a lot of that business

[lingyai]

Backpackers help sustain the economy.

They do NOT spend half as much as you imply, however.

I`ve worked the backpacker in LOS, Melbourne, Amsterdam, and now Guatemala, for a total of nearly 10 years now.

They are the cheapest scum on the planet.

Even the most disagreeable dirty pit of the earth thai-dutch-ozzie-chapin (guate local)- when he goes out, spends more than a backpacker spends in a week.

That applies to the younger ones though. Older (more mature?) travelers I box differently, cos I like `em. They are the ones who buy the good liquors, take a more comfotable bungalow, whatever. They spend more. But for me, more importantly, they live to a quiality they`ve set for themselves. That I respect in any person.

But yer LP-er ... Ugh!

So some one who backpacks around and is conservative with their money so they can see more of one area of the world is scum...

Wow you are a long term troll.

This new backpacker breed has found Thailand very user friendly. it is by far one of the most popular destinations these days. maybe they are not as adventurous as we were but they bring in heaps of foreign currency into Thailand.

Fair enough although I'm wondering about the economics.

My guestimate would be that the average backpacker spends around 500baht a day or 182500/year if they stay all year.

I guess the average (sex) tourist spends about 5000baht a day or 70000 on a 2-week holiday.

It seems to me there's a lot more average tourists than backpackers so all in all the financial contribution of back packers is minimal.

Packbackers are going to easily spend more than an average of 500 baht a day. Maybe you havn't around them in the last 10 years.

Backpackers are also more likely to stay at small guest houses and eat at smaller resturants and bars. These are often run by Thai families not some mega corp. Hilton or Marriot.

Edited September 18, 2006 by lingyai

[Arsenal]

Backpackers help sustain the economy.

They do NOT spend half as much as you imply, however.

I`ve worked the backpacker in LOS, Melbourne, Amsterdam, and now Guatemala, for a total of nearly 10 years now.

They are the cheapest scum on the planet.

Even the most disagreeable dirty pit of the earth thai-dutch-ozzie-chapin (guate local)- when he goes out, spends more than a backpacker spends in a week.

That applies to the younger ones though. Older (more mature?) travelers I box differently, cos I like `em. They are the ones who buy the good liquors, take a more comfotable bungalow, whatever. They spend more. But for me, more importantly, they live to a quiality they`ve set for themselves. That I respect in any person.

But yer LP-er ... Ugh!

I don't think the current rethink on immigration by the Thai authorities has backpackers in mind.They may not spend a great deal but are generally young and well educated, and thus potentially represent a potential for a more free spending/upmarket clientele in Thailand when they are investment bankers,doctors, businessmen etc in a couple of decades time.

If any group is targeted it is presumably the poorly educated lower class middle aged visa running ex-sex tourist, often alcoholic and with a bar/whore centred life.You can easily spot them in Pattaya or lower Sukhumvit.For some reason they tend to be fat and ugly but the give away is the raucous prole accent often saying "When's the next Thai Visa pissup?"

[cwilliam]

these new rules wont affect backpackers , they will still be able to come to your guest house and buy their bottled water and five straws like before.

and if a barfly could manage to stay sober for ten minutes , then even he should have no difficulty figuring out how to work around the regulations.

its all a big fuss about nothing.

Agreed,I have a retirement visa but if they check everybody at the airport for 90 day B/S I am gone,have the time and money to live anywhere!( what lines).

Edited September 18, 2006 by cwilliam

[zeusbheld]

Today's backpackers are tomorrows movers, shakers and captain's of industry.

The mere fact they have the guts to travel the way they do, and on a limited budget

sets them apart from

the ordinary,unimaginative, probably much less well educated joe's.

I did the Cape Town to Cairo overland thing in the 70's when I was 19. And I

did it on my lonesome.

Naka.

agree. one thing i notice is that backpacker types tend to have a lot more education than the average sex tourist (met both on the jack's golf visa run bus, of which i made 3 runs. ah, the memories). education doesn't guarantee success but it can certainly increase your odds.