Farang Long Stayers Criminal

[meom]

The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month.

So how much you reckon an average backpacker spends in a year?

Maybe things have changed nowadays but when I was backpacking in the 70's I basically hit the road without money or credit card and lived on hand-outs, the odd job and food leftover in garbage cans. I was indeed a poverty packer

... I think many of them are pretending to be like you were when you were travelling.

I should hope not because I failed miserably as a backpacker

First trip to India I ended up down and out in Greece trying to fund my way home working as a carpenter. Never held a hammer in my hand before so that was kinda hard. Lost about 10 kilo's but eventually made it home alright.

Second trip to Morocco wasn't a success either since not everybody in Spain appreciates the smoking and possesion of hasish so most of that trip was spent in a Spanish jail.

Lost again about 10 kilo's but eventually made it home alright.

Gave up on backpacking after that.

[kayo]

Backpackers help sustain the economy.

They do NOT spend half as much as you imply, however.

I`ve worked the backpacker in LOS, Melbourne, Amsterdam, and now Guatemala, for a total of nearly 10 years now.

They are the cheapest scum on the planet.

Even the most disagreeable dirty pit of the earth thai-dutch-ozzie-chapin (guate local)- when he goes out, spends more than a backpacker spends in a week.

That applies to the younger ones though. Older (more mature?) travelers I box differently, cos I like `em. They are the ones who buy the good liquors, take a more comfotable bungalow, whatever. They spend more. But for me, more importantly, they live to a quiality they`ve set for themselves. That I respect in any person.

But yer LP-er ... Ugh!

So some one who backpacks around and is conservative with their money so they can see more of one area of the world is scum...

Wow you are a long term troll.

Sticks and stones, emotional one. Read the words in front of you carefully. My key words are "live to a quality they set for themselves."

Most of the younger Bp-ers I know live far under the standard they have for themselves. I`m not talking about every rich kid who leaves home with a back pack for a two day per village visit of the world and dreads and henna.

I`m talking about a dying breed of backpacker, whom we could perhaps classify as the "neo hippy wannabee". In his home country (s)he may be a daddy girl, or a kid from the slums, I don`t care, but why should an economy like the Thai one have to put up with scroungers and beggars from abroad. There`s enough here already. And now some people are saying they spend just as much as a two week holiday maker, over a year. Yes, But toi maintain them for that year costs a heck of a lot more than maintaining a two week tourist.

Now, on the other hand, some travelers are very creative, and maintain themselves in many countries by their artesanal work, their (talented) musicianship, or whatever. That is something which is far harder to do in thailand, and in my opinion should be relaxed somewhat.

[serpentine]

BPs young, old, dreads, laptops or what ever don't drain the economy. I have met a few wasteoids outta money completely but rarely ever seen a BP begging to survive. Even if their budget is minimal they still spend money. it is not like Thailand is too full to accomadate a stingy BP.

My thai friends who have BP around the world have had to be very frugile and creative to get by. Imagine if countries like Australia (famous as a hospitable BP destination) frowned apon someone from poorer countries because they didn't buy enough beer in theie stay. Sure, getting the visa may be difficult, but real authentic BPs have always been inventive so they could stay longer. They may break a law by practicing their art for a pittance, but I would hardly think they are the scurge of any country, let alone Tld.

[sbk]

kayo, you're right, the scummy ones are a dying breed. Koh Phangan is still backpacker heaven and I'd have to say the kind you are talking about are few and far between any more these days.

Most of the people we get are 18-30 and are either gap year (rich kids), have just finished uni or finished a few years ago, worked and saved their money and want to see the world before they settle down. Most of the long-term ones in Thailand are either on their way to Aus to work (one year visa) or just returning from there.

I prefer backpackers to older people because they are less fussy, less demanding and generally much easier going. They spend money, maybe not a fortune, but usually the places they frequent are locally owned small businesses. Thus, I feel, backpackers put more back into the local economy to the benefit of the average Thai person than your package tourist staying at a high end corporate owned resort.

[serpentine]

Agreed. They might not spend the most money but they tend to spend it in the right places. The lion's share of most package tourists' money goes straight back OS

[SamuiJens]

kayo, you're right, the scummy ones are a dying breed. Koh Phangan is still backpacker heaven and I'd have to say the kind you are talking about are few and far between any more these days.

Most of the people we get are 18-30 and are either gap year (rich kids), have just finished uni or finished a few years ago, worked and saved their money and want to see the world before they settle down. Most of the long-term ones in Thailand are either on their way to Aus to work (one year visa) or just returning from there.

I prefer backpackers to older people because they are less fussy, less demanding and generally much easier going. They spend money, maybe not a fortune, but usually the places they frequent are locally owned small businesses. Thus, I feel, backpackers put more back into the local economy to the benefit of the average Thai person than your package tourist staying at a high end corporate owned resort.

SBK; In some ways I'll agree, But, when it comes down to it, the Goverment and its lackies are making the Islands attractive to the "International jet set" and rich snobbs in general. More "companys" are building these High-end resorts. And catering to the rich, with the trendy, paradise Islands, etc. advertising where ever you look. Soon there will be no room for the typical backpackers as you talk about or other non-scum that decided to retire here.

But you forget that its the locals (a lot) that have sold off most or all of their land to make these things possable. As discust in another topic.

[meom]

Agreed. They might not spend the most money but they tend to spend it in the right places. The lion's share of most package tourists' money goes straight back OS

How does that work then? I can understand that profits from big hotels etc end up overseas but only after they've paid their local personnel, their local suppliers etc. keeping the lions share inside the country.

[A_Traveller]

Agreed. They might not spend the most money but they tend to spend it in the right places. The lion's share of most package tourists' money goes straight back OS

How does that work then? I can understand that profits from big hotels etc end up overseas but only after they've paid their local personnel, their local suppliers etc. keeping the lions share inside the country.

With a 'package' the profits are mostly retained by the originator. They use their buying power to cut deals with hotel chains, often paying through the head offices to obtain rooms at the lowest rates. The local hotel receives a payment for the room but has no choice about it. It is hoped that the payment for 'extras' that the guest uses will give a direct return to the hotel.

In fact many Chinese tours operate in such a way that the local economy receives virtually nothing, so called 'zero dollar' tours.

Regards

[serpentine]

The tourists generally pay inflated prices for the services, usually double. Sure, the jobs created are beneficial, but these tourists rarely indulge in street food etc. Everything is pre paid, pre booked. I read the statistics 2 years back. A much larger percentage of every 1000 bht a bP spends stays in the LOCAL community. Package tourists' money make go to thais, but generally those who are already very wealthy.

[meom]

Agreed. They might not spend the most money but they tend to spend it in the right places. The lion's share of most package tourists' money goes straight back OS

How does that work then? I can understand that profits from big hotels etc end up overseas but only after they've paid their local personnel, their local suppliers etc. keeping the lions share inside the country.

With a 'package' the profits are mostly retained by the originator. They use their buying power to cut deals with hotel chains, often paying through the head offices to obtain rooms at the lowest rates. The local hotel receives a payment for the room but has no choice about it. It is hoped that the payment for 'extras' that the guest uses will give a direct return to the hotel.

In fact many Chinese tours operate in such a way that the local economy receives virtually nothing, so called 'zero dollar' tours.

Regards

I agree that profits are retained and if you compare profits of a big hotel versus profits of a guesthouse than it's right to assume profits of the guesthouse remain in Thailand.

However we're not talking only profits but also turnover. Let's say a big hotel has a turnover of 10mil versus guesthouse's 1 mil. If both have a profit margin of 20% the hotel will send 2 mil abroad retaining 8 mil in country while the guesthouse retains the full 1 mil in country.

Seems to me the hotel adds more to the overall economy.

Having said that I don't have a clue what's the turnover of a hotel versus guesthouse and what's the ratio of hotels versus guesthouses.

[Jonson83]

Totally agree with you serpentine.I came back from a 9 month 'travelling' trip around south east asia in early august.The average backpacker spends a lot of money,an awful lot more than some people here are sugegsting.Anywhere between 500-1000 baht per day,no question.I spent about £5000(about 350K baht) whilst i was out,which is probably slightly more than average but not a lot more.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Jonson83

[bkkandrew]

The tourists generally pay inflated prices for the services, usually double. Sure, the jobs created are beneficial, but these tourists rarely indulge in street food etc. Everything is pre paid, pre booked. I read the statistics 2 years back. A much larger percentage of every 1000 bht a bP spends stays in the LOCAL community. Package tourists' money make go to thais, but generally those who are already very wealthy.

I quite agree. I remember years ago when I was over here on Corporate trips and the only money I spent in the local economy was for a girl. Chain hotel rooms/car/food etc. Now, as the type of felang that they want rid of, 100% of my money is spent with local Thais and I would not be seen dead in my old haunts of Novotel, Marriot, etc...

It is not foolish, this new law, but spitefull to ordinary Thais...

[fxm88]

In fact many Chinese tours operate in such a way that the local economy receives virtually nothing, so called 'zero dollar' tours.

Hmmm... you may have misunderstood who is being taken advantage of with "zero dollar tours".

From http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/GG14Ae01.html

The groups are herded from one expensive jewelry shop to another, from pricey entertainment joints to expensive restaurants. Not being able to speak Thai, and virtually imprisoned within the group, they are ripped blind.

Unscrupulous tour operators (both Thai and Chinese) and their selected outlets in Thailand reap handsome rewards - one estimate puts the loss to the legitimate tour industry at as much as US$400 million a year. Officials claim that about 90% of Thailand's inbound operators specializing in Chinese tourists are of the "zero-dollar" kind.

Also http://www.thaivisa.com/index.php?514&...amp;tt_news=315

[kayo]

I quite agree. I remember years ago when I was over here on Corporate trips and the only money I spent in the local economy was for a girl. Chain hotel rooms/car/food etc. Now, as the type of felang that they want rid of, 100% of my money is spent with local Thais and I would not be seen dead in my old haunts of Novotel, Marriot, etc...

It is not foolish, this new law, but spitefull to ordinary Thais...

on a side note: I`d personally not be seen dead in a novotel or whatever. Usually, in mainland europe, cos for about the same price you can get into a "good" hotel.

However, the roadside motels of europe, in Thailand, enjoy a superior luxury to anything I ould ever afford in say, London, or amsterdam.

[Arsenal]

kayo, you're right, the scummy ones are a dying breed. Koh Phangan is still backpacker heaven and I'd have to say the kind you are talking about are few and far between any more these days.

Most of the people we get are 18-30 and are either gap year (rich kids), have just finished uni or finished a few years ago, worked and saved their money and want to see the world before they settle down. Most of the long-term ones in Thailand are either on their way to Aus to work (one year visa) or just returning from there.

I prefer backpackers to older people because they are less fussy, less demanding and generally much easier going. They spend money, maybe not a fortune, but usually the places they frequent are locally owned small businesses. Thus, I feel, backpackers put more back into the local economy to the benefit of the average Thai person than your package tourist staying at a high end corporate owned resort.

A sensible post with which I fully agree, but then you go and spoil it with a silly last sentence.You are obviously not an economist.Nevertheless your overall benign conclusion on backpackers is spot on.What is more they are very rarely sex tourists and usually have a keen interest in learning about Thai culture.Thus from all points of view they are infintely superior to the midle aged barflies in Pattaya and elsewhere.

[sting01]

Rather than focuse on the BP, why not elevate a bit the discussion and try to maybe follow the OP post : Long Stayers Criminal.

I posted heavily the last 24 hours my concerns and fears on this subject. Fact I am a long stayer (legally), but does it make me criminal? Will I be a criminal October the first, because I was following the law in the past?

What do I see in those new regulations is not the will to clean the country from some scumsbags, such as incompetent teachers, alcoholic people, sex addicts (not the usual sexpats, fun is a natural thing), people bribing the administration or the officers, people who drive harley without an helmet (usual amongst our community in pataya, then when arrested they bribe the police officers), people using their money power to illegaly build resorts ... there is a long list of scumbags who have millions to invest that should be kicked from here (as from any country). But do not worry, it will not happend.

So what do I see in the new regulations :

1) by promoting that new regulation the governement will on the same time touch both the electors, and the farangs. It's communication, the electors will be sure the governement will never allow foreigners to mess up with Thailand. The foreigners on the same time are sure if they are true investors they are in the right place.

2)The governement will simply make place for the asian neiborought who are waiting to come here. Remenber some month ago it was some accord btw India and Thailand to send indians teachers here.By so, the so called BP teacher who somewhere cost a lot to the school (25 000 up to 40 000) will be replaced by someone who will not pretend to teach , but do exactly what he/she is asking to do, and for a lowest salary. Qualification is not the issue, but cost is the issue. Anyway the educational system is not looking for excellence, as long as you can pay the tution fees you will get the diploma.

3)Rather than to be oriented against the BP, those regulations are oriented against a midle class foreigner who live, invest, work and have a familly here. I stress out the words 'middle class', because I think about the numerous expats who invested their life saving here, by life saving I mean modest sum (let say less than 5 M of bht). Mostly they did so because they decided for whatever reasons to restart their life here. Well, those regulations will make things HARSH for them.To give exemple, I wonder if George could follow the regulation after he bought Thaivisa (some years ago), or what about IndoSiam 4 or 5 years ago? Both of them had enought wealth to create several companies here, and to pay their bills untill their companies generate a benefit, but for at least 3/4 years they were far to comply with the rules of the 60k for a WP (without tricking by a way or another the administration). I give those 2 exemples because I know personally those people, I can swear on the Holly Bible they are HONORABLE gentlemen and far to be scumsbags. But some years ago, they would be in the same problem than us now.

4) my thought for the outcome : well, like for the APEC meeting in 2003, it will be a lot of noise, and not much effect immediatly. IIf I understood well, the 1st of october the visa runners will got a red stamp for their last run, so they will stay here for anoter 30 month. If lucky, and if they have to run the 29th of october, maybe the immigration officer will be bored to use the red color and will use a black ink ... But, on the same time, we will see less of those middle aged men with some moneys earned abroad coming here and trying to re start their life. To do so, dream is important, dream to get a young and nice wife (natural and legitimate dream), dream to create a legacy for the kids, dream to do something good for good people. Those people will certainly look at 2 times before to come here again. Mostly the story was the same, they came, get a crush on someone, found the beer cold and cheap, the som tum decilious, and after 2 or 3 trips in LOS decided to stay because it was easy. If it became difficult, there is still countries where you can have something equivalent (maybe with inferior quality about the beer).

BP is the peak of the iceberg, it's easy to speak about them, like it's easy to joke the kathoeys. But as many of the posters here claim to be from the wealthly part of the western countries, it also imply they had educations and by so able to see deeped than what 'the princes who gouvern us' want us to see. Speaking about BP is like to state an english teacher is necessary a Britt who is alcoholic and cross dresser (using druggs eventually, and with strong paedophile desire).

Another stance is a little bit deranging me, for some of us if I read well, it's obvious we have the duty to substain the thai economy, and not the grass roots but the big business. That is a huge concern to me. Big business is heartless by definition (it's a fact, not a judgement, big business exist to make money and by so pay back the shareholders, nothing wrong with that I do agree). So it's only if you refer to some old, very old economic theories that you can think the life of the basic citisens will improve because some corpotations are becoming bigger. Thinks does not work that way, and trust me it's better, business is business and have to make money.But the bottom line is the corporations who come here do not install new plants or fabrics mostly, but services. So in the national accounting that is okie, but for the economical developement that is not okie. A simple T.E.S. (tableau entree sortie in french, I do not know the acronym in english) will show easily only 3 iterations can be allowed when services account for more than 30% of PNB. Only industry allow 5 + iterations , and by really increase the economy potential.

Last point also, how many of the hightso tourist go to eat in the noodle shop for 23 bht (27 if they ask for ice with the water)? So yes a scumbag does not have a huge economical power if compared with highso tourist, but 23 bht is vital for the lady who sell som tum, or tom yum. no 23 bht, she can not pay the tution fees, and she will have to take her daughter from school to sell gurlands on the street .... Not tomorrow for sure, but time will come. So what will happend, well it will against political turmoil, and when there is uncertainity the first to stop investment are the big business.

But it's not for tomorrow, nor even for next month.Thailand will not colapse because some people will not get another run. It's just it show what direction things are moving. I bet my last coin than soon people who bought condominium will have also some problems, such has they have to buy a new one, because they bought it 10 years ago and by so had enought time to visit the temples. Sound crazed, but it will come soon. The key is not an hanfull of people who are kicked, the key is they have to continuously invest , if not they have no reason to stay, and what they bought have to be returned to their original owners. That is how things are moving.

[samran]

kayo, you're right, the scummy ones are a dying breed. Koh Phangan is still backpacker heaven and I'd have to say the kind you are talking about are few and far between any more these days.

Most of the people we get are 18-30 and are either gap year (rich kids), have just finished uni or finished a few years ago, worked and saved their money and want to see the world before they settle down. Most of the long-term ones in Thailand are either on their way to Aus to work (one year visa) or just returning from there.

I prefer backpackers to older people because they are less fussy, less demanding and generally much easier going. They spend money, maybe not a fortune, but usually the places they frequent are locally owned small businesses. Thus, I feel, backpackers put more back into the local economy to the benefit of the average Thai person than your package tourist staying at a high end corporate owned resort.

Agreed. The Australian government has done a study on the effect that backpackers have in the local economy, and they are overwhelmingly positive for the local economy. They spend their money (quite significant amounts of it) at the grass roots. On average they spend close to, or more than, the average tourist, but they do so over a longer space of time.

In my view the controversy over the visa is far removed from backpackers however. Thailand only last year committed to a reciprocal working holiday relationship with Australia, so the commitment to working holidays, and young people working in a backpacking context has been shown.

What the current controversy is about is Thailand actually enforcing the spirit of the laws that have already been there, stopping those who are on perpetual tourist visas be defacto residents of Thailand.

In my view doing this will allow Thailand to better control who comes into the country. Not restrict people flows per se, but help ensure that those who enter Thailand for the longer term are desirable (which every country does). I mean for instance, if you tried visa running in the US, UK, or Australia, you'd get deported very quickly. Generally, any more than 6 months in each of these countries as a tourist will raise suspicions that you are more than a tourist, and that you are indeed settled in these countries. The settlement process requires more extensive financial, background and in some cases criminal checks.

This American bloke who confessed to killing that little girl 10 years ago is the lastest example of holes in the system, and how people are exploiting tourist visas. The terrorist, Himbali, was caught living/hiding here, doing a visa run. It is highly likely that foreign mafia gangs down in Pattaya are here only on Tourist visas. So its not all about fat slobs and their whoring it up here. I believe the root of these changes lies far away from what you think it is.

Is it a knee jerk reaction? I actually hope not and that Thailand develops some consistency and transparency in its visa rules. For me moving to the UK, it was simple to find out how I could move there. For Thailand it will make it clear to everyone, who can come and how long they can stay...and under what conditions. There will be painful ajustments for some in the meantime....but hey....welcome to the real world of proper immigration proceedures.