Experts split over subs plan

[casualbiker]

Toy subs for tin soldiers.

Think how much good 36B baht would do for the poor people of Thailand.

Or "big boys toys".

Someone mentioned the other day about the cost of building a support base for these subs and what about training of crews and the maintenance and repair of the vessels. I would therefore suggest that the actual cost will be much much higher than 36 billion Baht.

That's ALREADY been built. They have had a submarine training division for over 10 years. Complete with submarine simulator. Not dissimilar to the RTP (Royal Thai Police) who actually do parachute jumps as part of their training, WHY! No idea!

[Tywais]

Perhaps they can make use of those useless blimps.

[Oziex1]

If seeing the other countries with subs influences their decision to buy subs, what do they think they're going to do fight sibs with subs.Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it works that way.

Patrol boats or larger boats equipped with a helicopter would be a good choice.

I know about these things that's why I'm on TV.com

[tigermoth]

A stupid waste of money for a resource which cannot be utilised. 80m is the deepest part of the gulf, the average being considerably less. These new toys will hardly get below periscope depth. Also because of the shallowness of the gulf any foreign undersea intruder will be easily identified by maritime aircraft and surface ships. The only benefit to the fishing industry will be the considerable amount of labour required untangling these toys from fishing nets and repairing those which run aground.

[joebrown]

Just from reading the headline, I can tell where the two sides are 'split.'

One group is sensible and realistic and perhaps also thrifty, and they argue against the sub purchases.

the other group is military brass - who are jealous when seeing neighboring countries amassing subs. and some of those Thai top brass sub boosters may also be positioned in the pipeline to get kick-backs. ....and they're all China lovers. Either that, or easily dazzled by Chinese sales pitches.

I just heard an interview by a farang who went to buy a car in Shanghai. The Chinese car salesman was a nut. He would touch the buyer on parts of his body, he would beg for contracts to be signed ("buyer loses deposit of $500 if buyer makes no decision to purchase in two days"). The salesman even cried real tears in one part of the negotiation - so eager was he in making a sale.

Are the Thai officials who are testing the viability of the subs - the same officials who approved buying the many $33,000 black plastic boxes which did nothing? Incidentally, Thailand and Mexico are the only two countries which kept buying the useless little boxes - months/years after all other countries realized they were a scam.

Well defense tools are never needed until it is too late. The best thing that can happen is to buy weapons just to dismantel them 20 years later. With the big coast Thailand needs a strong Navy and maybe Subs. But they don't need the aircraft carrier....

Previous posters have quite correctly stated the Gulf of Thailand isn't deep enough to operate 'stealthily' in. This leaves the Andaman Sea....where is the threat there? Buying the subs is only the start. There is the ongoing expense of maintenance, repairs and no doubt up-grading in today's fast moving high-tech world. IMHO they'd be better protected by surface vessels and in the event of a major 'incident' Uncle Sam' would be back at U-tapou in the link of an eye. The proposed purchase of the subs might make better reading for the Thai population if it were to be a 'trade-off' involving a severe pruning of the vastly overstaffed militarypersonnel. Maybe pigs can fly......NOT.

[joebrown]

If seeing the other countries with subs influences their decision to buy subs, what do they think they're going to do fight sibs with subs.Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it works that way.

Patrol boats or larger boats equipped with a helicopter would be a good choice.

I know about these things that's why I'm on TV.com

You make some very serious and astute comments, but you also gave me one hell of a big chuckle in the process!!!!

[Nigeone]

Actually..where all stupid and the Thai navy top men have got it right...there going to use them in the battle against illegal fishing..allegedly ...in the UK you often hear stories of fishing boats pulled and sometimes sunk by what could only be subs...So the navy's cunning plan..sail around the Gulf of Thailand and catch the nets and drag down all the illegal fishing boats and crew...problem solved and don't need to use any ordinance either...why didn't the brains on here think of that!!

[Oziex1]

If seeing the other countries with subs influences their decision to buy subs, what do they think they're going to do fight sibs with subs.Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it works that way.

Patrol boats or larger boats equipped with a helicopter would be a good choice.

I know about these things that's why I'm on TV.com

You make some very serious and astute comments, but you also gave me one hell of a big chuckle in the process!!!!

Thanks JB

[northernphil]

When you look at the map of the satelite countries around LoS it is a bit like me looking up my soi. The family over the way have 3 oldish cars, next door they have a new car and next door to them they have a Benz, I had better buy a car just in case I need to go out of my soi one day.

[JAG]

Toy subs for tin soldiers.

Think how much good 36B baht would do for the poor people of Thailand.

Or "big boys toys".

Someone mentioned the other day about the cost of building a support base for these subs and what about training of crews and the maintenance and repair of the vessels. I would therefore suggest that the actual cost will be much much higher than 36 billion Baht.

That's ALREADY been built. They have had a submarine training division for over 10 years. Complete with submarine simulator. Not dissimilar to the RTP (Royal Thai Police) who actually do parachute jumps as part of their training, WHY! No idea!

At the risk of straying off topic, I think that the " parachute wings" worn by policemen and just about everyone else in uniform in this country are gained by making a couple of jumps from a training tower!

[JAG]

If the Gulf of Thailand is too shallow for submarine operations, and they will therefore only really be of use in the Andaman sea, umm, why have they built the submarine service HQ and training school on the coast of the Gulf of Thailand?

[elgordo38]

Military government, economic crisis looming...

Solution - Spend 36 Billion BHT on stuff the country doesn't need.

Is this the rational decision of a responsible government - is there an underwater war looming we haven't heard about?

Looking at the submarine chart above it seems to be a case of "Keeping Up With The Jones" I was just reading one of the newspapers the other day where the PM was decrying the cost of the 30 baht medical card. He calls it a populous plan or something where 2/3 or more of the population benefit. Well governments should be funding populous plans that benefit the people not buying "Boy Toys" As with most military items it is cheap to buy the item but all the spare parts and maintainence is what costs especially as these subs age plus the cost of manning them. Thailand is mostly a land bound country and I see no need for this type of "defense" Another feature that is sadly lacking is a decent pension for the elderly. 600 bahts a month is woefully inadequate. Changing this would bring true happiness to the people and give working Thai's a break from sending money home to the parents every month. Governments should be for the people

Edited July 4, 2015 by elgordo38

[wabothai]

The last line in the article really says a lot.

[elgordo38]

BANGKOK: -- MANY BELIEVE THAILAND DOES NOT HAVE MARITIME ISSUES TO WARRANT BIG SPENDING ON SUBMARINES

May as well ask why Thailand has any military forces at all, first sign of danger, they run away or capitulate.

It's just money going in to unworthy pockets, nothing more.

They should send some observers to Costa Rica they have no army. It seems where there are military governments military spending is a priority.

[ratcatcher]

Just from reading the headline, I can tell where the two sides are 'split.'

One group is sensible and realistic and perhaps also thrifty, and they argue against the sub purchases.

the other group is military brass - who are jealous when seeing neighboring countries amassing subs. and some of those Thai top brass sub boosters may also be positioned in the pipeline to get kick-backs. ....and they're all China lovers. Either that, or easily dazzled by Chinese sales pitches.

I just heard an interview by a farang who went to buy a car in Shanghai. The Chinese car salesman was a nut. He would touch the buyer on parts of his body, he would beg for contracts to be signed ("buyer loses deposit of $500 if buyer makes no decision to purchase in two days"). The salesman even cried real tears in one part of the negotiation - so eager was he in making a sale.

Are the Thai officials who are testing the viability of the subs - the same officials who approved buying the many $33,000 black plastic boxes which did nothing? Incidentally, Thailand and Mexico are the only two countries which kept buying the useless little boxes - months/years after all other countries realized they were a scam.

Well defense tools are never needed until it is too late. The best thing that can happen is to buy weapons just to dismantel them 20 years later. With the big coast Thailand needs a strong Navy and maybe Subs. But they don't need the aircraft carrier....

I would actually make more of a case for the aircraft carrier than the subs...they really really are not easy to operate and maintain and for sure not going to be functional because of water depth and the lack of threat to them..the only threat would be from China and there buying from them.I think China has 60 plus subs and know how to use and maintain..there's only going to be one winner in that fight ! And it's not Thailand..mind you the Aircraft carries as it stands is a white elephant isn't it...park them all up with the bomb detectors the air ships the Chinese tanks and leave some room for the Aircraft carrier and non serviceable planes purchased with it and the space for the three subs...a mighty scrap yard !!

"...a mighty scrap yard !! "

[elgordo38]

Actually..where all stupid and the Thai navy top men have got it right...there going to use them in the battle against illegal fishing..allegedly ...in the UK you often hear stories of fishing boats pulled and sometimes sunk by what could only be subs...So the navy's cunning plan..sail around the Gulf of Thailand and catch the nets and drag down all the illegal fishing boats and crew...problem solved and don't need to use any ordinance either...why didn't the brains on here think of that!!

Kind of a hair brained idea but read it anyway. Love your avatar looks like my g/f

[boomerangutang]

The first thing a warring nation does (or tries to do) is a pre-emptive strike on its enemies' strongest weapons. The japanese did it in 1942 at Pearl Harbor, and similar strikes have been done by many nations before and since. The Austro-Hungarian military commissioned its first-ever destroyer in the early 20th century. Before it ever got to sea, it was bombed and destroyed.

If Thailand had subs, they would be spending 96 to 100% of their time docked. What a plum target for an adversary.

Another factor, particularly in modern times with everything becomeing digital: a secret self-destruct provision in advanced weapons. I wouldn't doubt American drones and fighter jets have them, for example. When the Korean war got going, the US was surprised at how well Russian MIGS were performing. It turned out, MIG makers had clandestinely gotten hold of Rolls Royce jet engine tech. I bet the makers of those engines wish they had a secret kill switch, but of course, they didn't. Similar for the US drone which was brought down in Iran last year.

Would the Chinese build-in a self-destruct option, controlled only by China? Probably not, but since the Chinese are currently at loggerheads with several SE Asian countries, it might be something they're considering - for their own advanced weapons systems (in case they fall in the wrong hands), and also within weapons they sell to others in the region - who may, in the future, become adversaries.

[BirdsandBooze]

A submarine is an offensive weapon. Where is the threat that convinces some in Thailand that the country needs to waste money on such vessels? This smacks of showboating.

[h90]

Just from reading the headline, I can tell where the two sides are 'split.'

One group is sensible and realistic and perhaps also thrifty, and they argue against the sub purchases.

the other group is military brass - who are jealous when seeing neighboring countries amassing subs. and some of those Thai top brass sub boosters may also be positioned in the pipeline to get kick-backs. ....and they're all China lovers. Either that, or easily dazzled by Chinese sales pitches.

I just heard an interview by a farang who went to buy a car in Shanghai. The Chinese car salesman was a nut. He would touch the buyer on parts of his body, he would beg for contracts to be signed ("buyer loses deposit of $500 if buyer makes no decision to purchase in two days"). The salesman even cried real tears in one part of the negotiation - so eager was he in making a sale.

Are the Thai officials who are testing the viability of the subs - the same officials who approved buying the many $33,000 black plastic boxes which did nothing? Incidentally, Thailand and Mexico are the only two countries which kept buying the useless little boxes - months/years after all other countries realized they were a scam.

Well defense tools are never needed until it is too late. The best thing that can happen is to buy weapons just to dismantel them 20 years later. With the big coast Thailand needs a strong Navy and maybe Subs. But they don't need the aircraft carrier....

Previous posters have quite correctly stated the Gulf of Thailand isn't deep enough to operate 'stealthily' in. This leaves the Andaman Sea....where is the threat there? Buying the subs is only the start. There is the ongoing expense of maintenance, repairs and no doubt up-grading in today's fast moving high-tech world. IMHO they'd be better protected by surface vessels and in the event of a major 'incident' Uncle Sam' would be back at U-tapou in the link of an eye. The proposed purchase of the subs might make better reading for the Thai population if it were to be a 'trade-off' involving a severe pruning of the vastly overstaffed militarypersonnel. Maybe pigs can fly......NOT.

Uncle Sam didn't blink an eye in the crises with Cambodia.....Or the other side may have the backing of Uncle Sam.....Previous when it was still the subs from Germany they always spoke about the Gulf.

Naval charts shows me a 50-70 meter. For that a Type II German sub would do.....

[h90]

Military government, economic crisis looming...

Solution - Spend 36 Billion BHT on stuff the country doesn't need.

Is this the rational decision of a responsible government - is there an underwater war looming we haven't heard about?

Looking at the submarine chart above it seems to be a case of "Keeping Up With The Jones" I was just reading one of the newspapers the other day where the PM was decrying the cost of the 30 baht medical card. He calls it a populous plan or something where 2/3 or more of the population benefit. Well governments should be funding populous plans that benefit the people not buying "Boy Toys" As with most military items it is cheap to buy the item but all the spare parts and maintainence is what costs especially as these subs age plus the cost of manning them. Thailand is mostly a land bound country and I see no need for this type of "defense" Another feature that is sadly lacking is a decent pension for the elderly. 600 bahts a month is woefully inadequate. Changing this would bring true happiness to the people and give working Thai's a break from sending money home to the parents every month. Governments should be for the people

With your argument you could dismantle the complete army and use the money for the population benefit. As long as all other countries don't cause troubles it is a great idea.

A quick look on the globe will tell you, that Lao, Switzerland and Butan are land bound countries but Thailand has a huge coastline, all the south...

[LannaGuy]

it's all face, face, face now patrol boats I could understand but subs? would you trust a Thai in a sub? they would have difficulty telling 'up' from 'down' and would probably get lost

[Fat Haggis]

Just from reading the headline, I can tell where the two sides are 'split.'

One group is sensible and realistic and perhaps also thrifty, and they argue against the sub purchases.

the other group is military brass - who are jealous when seeing neighboring countries amassing subs. and some of those Thai top brass sub boosters may also be positioned in the pipeline to get kick-backs. ....and they're all China lovers. Either that, or easily dazzled by Chinese sales pitches.

I just heard an interview by a farang who went to buy a car in Shanghai. The Chinese car salesman was a nut. He would touch the buyer on parts of his body, he would beg for contracts to be signed ("buyer loses deposit of $500 if buyer makes no decision to purchase in two days"). The salesman even cried real tears in one part of the negotiation - so eager was he in making a sale.

Are the Thai officials who are testing the viability of the subs - the same officials who approved buying the many $33,000 black plastic boxes which did nothing? Incidentally, Thailand and Mexico are the only two countries which kept buying the useless little boxes - months/years after all other countries realized they were a scam.

Well defense tools are never needed until it is too late. The best thing that can happen is to buy weapons just to dismantel them 20 years later. With the big coast Thailand needs a strong Navy and maybe Subs. But they don't need the aircraft carrier....

Still talking out your rectum I see !!

An aircraft carrier can be, and has been used in relief operations, tell me how many people in disaster struck areas where Submarines tend to participate in the relief mission?? Not many, the concept of having a Submarine is that it is supposed to be "invisible" to the enemy, let me know how well that works in the Gulf Of Siam as well please!!.

[tomacht8]

What sort of Circuit Breakers are to be installed in the submarines?
Unnecessary expenditure of taxpayers' money - full speed ahead.

[off road pat]

Military government, economic crisis looming...

Solution - Spend 36 Billion BHT on stuff the country doesn't need.

Is this the rational decision of a responsible government - is there an underwater war looming we haven't heard about?

3-5 % of the money lost in the rice scam......

So, because the previous government wasted money it is OK to waste another 36 billion Baht? Even if it were 1% of the Rice Scheme losses, it is not justified by anything the Admirals, or their paid mouthpieces, have said.

.

I think it's the Thainess thing,....they can't help wasting resources.....!!! and get some pocket money in return.

[smutcakes]

If they do manage to submerge them at some point, it won't be long before they are snagged on discarded fishing nets.

[Ricardo]

Impressive list of how many other nearby countries have submarines !

So perhaps Thailand should be buying depth-charges , and the patrol-boats or frigates, to drop them ?

Or is that too logical ?

[Thai at Heart]

If experts can't work out that in terms of naval strategic capability a submarine is worthless to Thailand, they can't be very expert.

They would be destroyed 5 miles from port.

[Mudcrab]

Actually..where all stupid and the Thai navy top men have got it right...there going to use them in the battle against illegal fishing..allegedly ...in the UK you often hear stories of fishing boats pulled and sometimes sunk by what could only be subs...So the navy's cunning plan..sail around the Gulf of Thailand and catch the nets and drag down all the illegal fishing boats and crew...problem solved and don't need to use any ordinance either...why didn't the brains on here think of that!!

Kind of a hair brained idea but read it anyway. Love your avatar looks like my g/f

Marge Simpson?

Homer will be upset Mr Burns.

[boomerangutang]

Currently, Thailand is one of China's best pals in its (China's) southern region. Arming an ally is usually a good idea - and in this sub scenario, China gets paid to arm its pal. Among other things, it's another nail in the coffin of any dreams the Philippines had of keeping their off-shore islands.

[Just1Voice]

Chinese Sub Salesman: "Oh, by the way, screen doors are optional."