adding name to title deed

[maotai]

long time reader. first time to post

I will be getting married to a thai woman who has a detached house and is paying a mortgage. she is the only person listed on the title deed. since I will be contributing to the household income we have agreed, if possible, to add my name to the title deed. is this possible and what is the procedure to accomplish this?

i appreciate any thoughts sans the trollers

thanks in advance

[MaeJoMTB]

not possible.

[maotai]

if not possible. anyway to protect myself in the event of a divorce in the future? or assuming we sell the property in a couple years can we buy another detached home and at the time of the buy put both our names on the deed.

[Crossy]

Unless you are Thai your name cannot go on the chanote (which if there's a mortgage will be in the possession of the bank anyway).

The 'blue book' (tabien baan) is for Thai's only, you can get a yellow version with your name, but neither indicate any form of ownership, just detail who lives at the address.

[maotai]

if not possible. anyway to protect myself in the event of a divorce in the future? or assuming we sell the property in a couple years can we buy another detached home and at the time of the buy put both our names on the deed.

[MaeJoMTB]

House belongs to her and the bank. Cannot be owned by foreigner.

'we' cannot ever sell, because 'we' do not own.

House can never belong to you, unless she makes a will naming you as heir then dies.

Edited July 4, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[maotai]

if not possible how can I protect myself in the event of a divorce and retain some of the equity I have contributed to the home. not too concerned since I don't have to put up a massive downpayment but wife is extremely worldly and understands the benefits of combining assests to obtain great face. also could we sell and then buy another detached house and have both our names on the deed?

[MaeJoMTB]

if not possible how can I protect myself in the event of a divorce and retain some of the equity I have contributed to the home. not too concerned since I don't have to put up a massive downpayment but wife is extremely worldly and understands the benefits of combining assests to obtain great face. also could we sell and then buy another detached house and have both our names on the deed?

no

[maotai]

pretty solid nfw responses. I appreciate the feedback. looks like I'll keep the overseas investments separate. cheers

[simon43]

Let me comment on this - from experience.

It is true that as a foreigner, you cannot own land, and in the event of a divorce, you have no claim to 50% of that land.

But if you are legally married, and then divorce, you do have a claim to 50% of ALL assets that were acquired after you married. That can include a house that sits on the land.

Since it is not realistic to own half a house, the normal route would be for the house to be sold, and you are given half of the profit. Or your partner pays 50% of the house value to you and retains full ownership.

Your 50% claim is only valid if you are legally married. AFAIK, Common-law partners are not recognised under Thai law.

Therefore, prior to signing a divorce agreement, you should ensure that your partner understands Thai law concerning equal splitting of assets acquired during the marriage.

In my case, I had a small hotel on the land. Even though I was not listed as a business partner for those properties, I was able to sell my 50% interest in the property, because my soon-to-be ex understand that I had a valid claim to 50% of all assets except land.

BTW, I sold my half-share of the property to a miserable guy that she hates, but who she has to work with...

[johnh869]

Unless you are Thai your name cannot go on the chanote (which if there's a mortgage will be in the possession of the bank anyway).

The 'blue book' (tabien baan) is for Thai's only, you can get a yellow version with your name, but neither indicate any form of ownership, just detail who lives at the address.

Many farangs (PR holders) are in the blue book....Your only half correct.

[quandow]

pretty solid nfw responses. I appreciate the feedback. looks like I'll keep the overseas investments separate. cheers

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Best choice possible.

[quandow]

Let me comment on this - from experience.

It is true that as a foreigner, you cannot own land, and in the event of a divorce, you have no claim to 50% of that land.

But if you are legally married, and then divorce, you do have a claim to 50% of ALL assets that were acquired after you married. That can include a house that sits on the land.

Since it is not realistic to own half a house, the normal route would be for the house to be sold, and you are given half of the profit. Or your partner pays 50% of the house value to you and retains full ownership.

Your 50% claim is only valid if you are legally married. AFAIK, Common-law partners are not recognised under Thai law.

Therefore, prior to signing a divorce agreement, you should ensure that your partner understands Thai law concerning equal splitting of assets acquired during the marriage.

In my case, I had a small hotel on the land. Even though I was not listed as a business partner for those properties, I was able to sell my 50% interest in the property, because my soon-to-be ex understand that I had a valid claim to 50% of all assets except land.

BTW, I sold my half-share of the property to a miserable guy that she hates, but who she has to work with...

This will work if she's not related to some official or another. For example, if her brother is a BiB, forget seeing a single satang.

[khunPer]

OP maotai, only Thai nationals can be listed on a land deed.

Since your wife-to-be already own the house (land with house), it may not be considered common property during marriage, and you may not be entitled to half (50 percent) in case of divorce. You should check with a lawyer, and perhaps make a prenuptial agreement if you wish to cover your future “investment” in house and mortgage.

Also, if you already have savings and/or property, a prenuptial agreement may protect your pre-marriage savings, even they are overseas.

[Liquorice]

Unless you are Thai your name cannot go on the chanote (which if there's a mortgage will be in the possession of the bank anyway).

The 'blue book' (tabien baan) is for Thai's only, you can get a yellow version with your name, but neither indicate any form of ownership, just detail who lives at the address.

Many farangs (PR holders) are in the blue book....Your only half correct.

Having PR status only allows a farang to be added to a Blue Thai Tabian Ban, after the Thais name, in the case of marriage.

Farang Condo owners are issued a Blue Tabian Ban as proof of the address being registered at the Amphur but there name cannot be entered into it.

If a Farang wants his own Tabian Ban, with sole name and address, then it must be a Yellow Tabian Ban.

A Tabian Ban of any colour has nothing to do with ownership, it is just a registration and record with the local Amphur of who lives at a particular address.

[stgrhe]

There were two questions and the first has adequately been answered; as a foreigner you cannot add your name to a land title deed.

As for the second questions it is sligtly more complicated. Your wife to be already owns the property and this before you enter into marrige. Hence, this property will be regarded as sin suan tua, i.e. her personal property also after marriage. You could opt for a possesory right or a mortage be lending her money (before marrige).

See a solicitor.

[kovaltech]

House belongs to her and the bank. Cannot be owned by foreigner.

'we' cannot ever sell, because 'we' do not own.

House can never belong to you, unless she makes a will naming you as heir then dies.

option would be if the OP grants the mortage and register that with the land office, this will be marked on the land tittle

[Khunangkaro]

OP, maotai, if your wife agrees to give you the Right of Usufruct, (สิทธิเก็บกิน-sith keb kim), you can at the Land Office have this Right written onto your name at the back of the title deed (Chanot). A fee of ~฿150.

You and the landowner will sign an Enhanced Agreement produced and filed by the Land Office. They will give you a copy you have to ask for if you like.

( If you send PM, I can mail you a copy of our Agreement. )

Can do before or after marriage.

Can be for any period up to lifetime.

When ownership of the land is changed, the Right of Usufruct continues until you revoke.

You can transfer your Right to an other person.

I don't know if the one who issued the mortgage have the Chanot as collateral and might not agree about adding Usufruct.

Good luck to both of you.

Wish you a happy married life.

PS. We never used a lawyer. Just went to Land Office with Chanot plus an example from friends and asked to register Usufruct.

Was denied as usual. But hold on pushing politely, it was done after they studied the Regulations.

No teamoney.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Khunangkaro

[sappersrest]

OP, maotai, if your wife agrees to give you the Right of Usufruct, (สิทธิเก็บกิน-sith keb kim), you can at the Land Office have this Right written onto your name at the back of the title deed (Chanot). A fee of ~฿150.

You and the landowner will sign an Enhanced Agreement produced and filed by the Land Office. They will give you a copy you have to ask for if you like.

( If you send PM, I can mail you a copy of our Agreement. )

Can do before or after marriage.

Can be for any period up to lifetime.

When ownership of the land is changed, the Right of Usufruct continues until you revoke.

You can transfer your Right to an other person.

I don't know if the one who issued the mortgage have the Chanot as collateral and might not agree about adding Usufruct.

Good luck to both of you.

Wish you a happy married life.

This is correct, my name is on the chanot for our house and I do have the original chanot as there is no mortgage .

[ThaiReal]

YES - you can - take your name at the Chanote if you register a Lease or Usufract, but NOT as owner.

[sometimewoodworker]

.

OP, maotai, if your wife agrees to give you the Right of Usufruct, (สิทธิเก็บกิน-sith keb kim), you can at the Land Office have this Right written onto your name at the back of the title deed (Chanot). A fee of ~฿150.

You and the landowner will sign an Enhanced Agreement produced and filed by the Land Office. They will give you a copy you have to ask for if you like.

( If you send PM, I can mail you a copy of our Agreement. )

PS. We never used a lawyer. Just went to Land Office with Chanot plus an example from friends and asked to register Usufruct.

Was denied as usual. But hold on pushing politely, it was done after they studied the Regulations.

No teamoney.

Would you mind letting me have the example you mention

"Right of Usufruct, (สิทธิเก็บกิน-sith keb kim) or Enhanced Agreement produced and filed by the Land Office"

My wife and I (going on for 10 years )have been meaning to go to get the same thing done to protect me in the unlikely event that she predeceases me. We haven't seen the local land officials yet as the land is a garden at the moment and SWMBO has the common reluctance to deal with officials when there may be a difficulty.

We are going to build on her "our" land the next dry season, so need to do something soon

Thanks in advance

Jerome

I haven't sent this as a PM as ThaiVisa has a problem in that while I can receive and reply to PMs I can't send a new one myself. This problem has been going on with a few accounts for months now

[maotai]

Gentlemen,

Thank you again for this information. Whether it be divorce or a tragic event occurs I want to make sure that everyone is protected. Which ultimately brings up another question, if a will is written by a licensed lawyer in Thailand for a farang, will the Thai courts honor it? I want to be sure that if we have children the child is protected and the family members cannot come in and have free reign.

[khunPer]

Gentlemen,

Thank you again for this information. Whether it be divorce or a tragic event occurs I want to make sure that everyone is protected. Which ultimately brings up another question, if a will is written by a licensed lawyer in Thailand for a farang, will the Thai courts honor it? I want to be sure that if we have children the child is protected and the family members cannot come in and have free reign.

The Thai lawyers Benjawan Poomsan Becker and Roensak Thongkaew have a chapter about Last Will in their book “Thai Law for Foreigners” (Paiboon Publishing ISBN 978-1-887521-57-4, paiboonpublishing.com), page 77-81. (The book also inform about marriage and divorce.)

Quoting various of interest from the chapter:

When there is NO Will or No Valid Will, the property will distributed among heirs; two kinds, by blood or by marriage.

Blood heirs:

1. Children

2. Parents

3. Brother and sisters

...

Legally married spouses who are separated still have rights to the assets.

If you are survived by your spouse and children, the spouse received fifty percent and the children receive fifty percent of the assets divided equally between the children and grandchildren (if there are no surviving children).

...

The lawyers write about a Will (quoting):

Foreigners should definitely have a written will. It can be a simple document written in either Thai or your native language or both.

...

There is (at the moment) no inheritage or death tax in Thailand. However, if land or buildings and certain assets are to be transferred to beneficiaries, the Land Department will charge fees for the transfers.

...

The lawyers talks about different forms of Will,

A “Regular Will”

that can be a handwritten or typed document, dated and signed in presence of a testator or two witnesses (which sounds like a Will written by a lawyer, also).

A "Civil Documented Will"

Signed at the amphur (district office) made at the office – the official will record (write) the Will and read it back for verification – and signed in presence of two witnesses (probably difficult if not in Thai language only). The Will can either be recorded or left in file at the amphur.

Then a Secret Will and an Oral Will is mentioned, but may not be of interest for OP.

You can buy the book for around 700 baht in most bookstores selling English books, think Bookazine-chain is a possibility (that's where I bought my copy).

Be aware, that any child heir under 20 years of age, will be under guardian (often Thai mum). You may be able to write specific clauses in the Will, but there is not such thing as a Trust (fund) in Thailand.

The lawyers also says, that in Thailand it’s common to have an executor – if no one mentioned, the Court will assign one.

There is (at least one) another thread in the TVForum with many good and detailed posts about making a Last Will and what to be aware of (think it’s this one: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/810544-living-in-thailand-and-leaving-a-willmoneyassets/ ).

[GOLDBUGGY]

To my knowledge you can't attach your name to the Title Deed as you are not allowed to own Land in Thailand.

Which you can do to protect yourself is take out a "Unufructs". This gives you the right to use this land and house for your life time, and in which you cannot be kicked out, mortgaged, or the house sold, while it is in effect. The only one who cancel this is you. Which if done correctly you may want to do if you and your wife decide to sell this house later for another one.

A Lawyer can easily draw this up for you and it is not too expensive. I recall mine was around 8,000 Baht but this included several Rai of Land, besides the house. Since you wife owns the land she would first have to agree to this. She will still own this land after but you have full rights to use it. So in a way you are leasing this land for a Life Time. With her Land Title and your Unufructs you next need to go down to the Land Titles and register this. They will attach this Unufructs to the Land Titles at this office.

Where you may run into a problem here, and you will need to talk to a Lawyer first, is that their is a Mortgage attached to this property as well. I never had one on mine when I did this 6 months ago. I do know that your wife could not get a mortgage if the Unufructs is already attached first. A protection for you obviously. No point in you having the right to this house for life, then have your wife mortgage this house to the hilt, and stop making payments.

But I am not so sure it is a problem if the mortgage has first claim and you agree to the Unufructs under these terms. But I do have doubts if they will give you one if this lien is on it already. Maybe others here have had experience with this but I haven't. I think you will need to talk to a lawyer first to be for sure, and clarify this first as a mortgage may change a lot of things here. Consultation with a Lawyer is cheap here so worth the visit. A 30 year lease is another option but you may run into the same legal problems as you do with a Unufructs.

Good Luck.

[BEVUP]

To my knowledge you can't attach your name to the Title Deed as you are not allowed to own Land in Thailand.

Which you can do to protect yourself is take out a "Unufructs". This gives you the right to use this land and house for your life time, and in which you cannot be kicked out, mortgaged, or the house sold, while it is in effect. The only one who cancel this is you. Which if done correctly you may want to do if you and your wife decide to sell this house later for another one.

A Lawyer can easily draw this up for you and it is not too expensive. I recall mine was around 8,000 Baht but this included several Rai of Land, besides the house. Since you wife owns the land she would first have to agree to this. She will still own this land after but you have full rights to use it. So in a way you are leasing this land for a Life Time. With her Land Title and your Unufructs you next need to go down to the Land Titles and register this. They will attach this Unufructs to the Land Titles at this office.

Where you may run into a problem here, and you will need to talk to a Lawyer first, is that their is a Mortgage attached to this property as well. I never had one on mine when I did this 6 months ago. I do know that your wife could not get a mortgage if the Unufructs is already attached first. A protection for you obviously. No point in you having the right to this house for life, then have your wife mortgage this house to the hilt, and stop making payments.

But I am not so sure it is a problem if the mortgage has first claim and you agree to the Unufructs under these terms. But I do have doubts if they will give you one if this lien is on it already. Maybe others here have had experience with this but I haven't. I think you will need to talk to a lawyer first to be for sure, and clarify this first as a mortgage may change a lot of things here. Consultation with a Lawyer is cheap here so worth the visit. A 30 year lease is another option but you may run into the same legal problems as you do with a Unufructs.

Good Luck.

But do thais worry about Unufructs

My wife mortgaged property & house (or her brother did) to a loan shark i presume (not a bank) & signed (would like to know more about this from anyone) the Chanute over to Lender & as i found out my Usunfrut didnt stop him coming to house & demanding to see brother or else he will sell the property

[Orac]

To my knowledge you can't attach your name to the Title Deed as you are not allowed to own Land in Thailand.

Which you can do to protect yourself is take out a "Unufructs". This gives you the right to use this land and house for your life time, and in which you cannot be kicked out, mortgaged, or the house sold, while it is in effect. The only one who cancel this is you. Which if done correctly you may want to do if you and your wife decide to sell this house later for another one.

A Lawyer can easily draw this up for you and it is not too expensive. I recall mine was around 8,000 Baht but this included several Rai of Land, besides the house. Since you wife owns the land she would first have to agree to this. She will still own this land after but you have full rights to use it. So in a way you are leasing this land for a Life Time. With her Land Title and your Unufructs you next need to go down to the Land Titles and register this. They will attach this Unufructs to the Land Titles at this office.

Where you may run into a problem here, and you will need to talk to a Lawyer first, is that their is a Mortgage attached to this property as well. I never had one on mine when I did this 6 months ago. I do know that your wife could not get a mortgage if the Unufructs is already attached first. A protection for you obviously. No point in you having the right to this house for life, then have your wife mortgage this house to the hilt, and stop making payments.

But I am not so sure it is a problem if the mortgage has first claim and you agree to the Unufructs under these terms. But I do have doubts if they will give you one if this lien is on it already. Maybe others here have had experience with this but I haven't. I think you will need to talk to a lawyer first to be for sure, and clarify this first as a mortgage may change a lot of things here. Consultation with a Lawyer is cheap here so worth the visit. A 30 year lease is another option but you may run into the same legal problems as you do with a Unufructs.

Good Luck.

But do thais worry about Unufructs

My wife mortgaged property & house (or her brother did) to a loan shark i presume (not a bank) & signed (would like to know more about this from anyone) the Chanute over to Lender & as i found out my Usunfrut didnt stop him coming to house & demanding to see brother or else he will sell the property

Usufruct is a right of use and not a right of ownership so technically the lender can sell the property but you still retain right of use. You would obviously need balls of steel to resist the efforts of the loan shark to remove you from said property so he can sell it on as vacant though!

[Arkady]

You would need the mortgagor's permission to enter into a lease or usufruct agreement because they need to take possession of it unencumbered if the mortgagee defaults. In this case they would obviously refuse. It would be different in the case of a commercial property that was acquired for rental with the lender's knowledge.

The only thing you can do is enter into a loan agreement with your wife to cover the mortgage payments you are making. This should preferable be by someone or an entity other than yourself, since agreements between husband and wife can be nullified by a court. Anyway this type of arrangement is only worth thinking about if the amounts involved are likely to be large enough to justify lawyers' fees you would have to pay, if you ever had to enforce the agreement. Personally I would view your arrangement just like paying rent for you and your wife to live there. In the event of divorce, you might be able to claim the house had morphed into a conjugal asset, due to the fact that your wife had turned over all or some of the management and upkeep of it to you. It will help if you pay the mortgage and utilities bills direct from your own account. At least keep a record of all payments made to your wife, if you can't do this.

Even if you were Thai and could have your name added to the title deed, which again would need the mortgagor's permission, you would have to pay tax to the Land Department to do this. I am currently looking into doing this, since I am now Thai. The tax is depressingly high, even though it is at a discounted rate where husbands and wives are involved and no actual sale takes place. You might find you wouldn't want to do it anyway, even if you were allowed to.