Garden Lights Keep Tripping

[UKJASE]

A bit of a newbie questions guys, please bear with me

i have installed some garden lights, for up lighting some of the trees in the garden. today the rains came and the lights tripped the fuse box.

the lights i am trying to install came with about 30 cm of flex. i simply twisted the two wires together with the power supply, and neutral, and wrapped each connection tightly with electrical tape, and then wrapped the two connections together with more tape.

the lights worked fine in the dry, but a big storm came today and they tripped out.

i looked at some of those yellow boxes the electricians use here, and the lids close tight, but they are not water proof...... so can you help me please and tell me the best way to install lights like this, which are to be placed in the (sometimes very wet) earth?

[gerry123]

if you are sure about your connection then possible faulty light (s)

laymens stuff i know but is the system earthed ??if not take great care

twisting wires together is a good thai skill

[IMHO]

A picture might help, but based on your description it sounds awfully unsafe!

The standard way I've seen garden lights wired is using continuous/glued conduit underground, with above ground, IP-rated junction boxes... and VCT wiring is used everywhere (i.e. the double insulated, multi-stranded stuff that looks like appliance cable - not the single insulated, solid core THW used for normal AC wiring).

I sure hope you have an RCD/RCBO somewhere up circuit?

[Crossy]

I sure hope you have an RCD/RCBO somewhere up circuit?

I'm hoping that's what's tripping ^^^, if it's an MCB we really do have a problem.

Mains garden lighting is always a nightmare, I suggest our OP gets some small IP65 boxes, some cable glands to go in the boxes and some decent connector blocks to go in the boxes.

The re-wire everything in a safe manner.

In the past I've used adhesive-loaded heatshrink over crimp connectors with some success, but it needs a decent crimp tool and proper heat gun to be really effective.

What cable has been used?

Are the cable runs safe from the mower, digging activities?

Or he could use 12V lights, much safer for everyone

[UKJASE]

Thanks for advice guys. yes a Safe T Cut is fitted in our fuse box. that works as a RCD/RCBO does it not?

i have to admit, my electrical experience is limited to installing car stereo systems in the past, but i am always very careful, and turn off all electrics at the fuse / Safe T Cut box before doing anything.

i am using an insulated twin core wire, which is then inserted into conduit. (looks very sturdy to me, IMHO )

i think my short is where the wire comes out of the conduit, and i then join it to the light. i only used electrician tape to join, but i will take Crossy's advice and get some IP65 boxes, glands and connectors. i will then seal the boxes up with silicone (as the yellow IP65 boxes i have are not water tight), and place them on an area on the ground where water does not gather.

will this be sufficient you think?

Thanks as always guys

[Crossy]

If they're not sealed they're not IP65

The boxes you want have a rubber seal on the lid and are otherwise solid plastic ready for you to drill tight fitting holes for the glands.

But yes, sounds like that should be OK.

"Insulated twin core wire", you're not using that grey 'speaker cable' are you?

[UKJASE]

If they're not sealed they're not IP65

The boxes you want have a rubber seal on the lid and are otherwise solid plastic ready for you to drill tight fitting holes for the glands.

But yes, sounds like that should be OK.

"Insulated twin core wire", you're not using that grey 'speaker cable' are you?

yea, i think these boxes may be indoor ones. they have pop outs for where the glands screw in, and these pop outs that aren't in use allow the water to leak in. i will get some water tight ones 2moro. Thanks Crossy.

no, the wire is 1.5 sq.mm x 2 PVC 300 volts and the company is Nation. it was about 1000b for 100m and looks pretty sturdy to me

[Crossy]

Can you post a photo of the wire please (or post what the actual markings say), although I doubt it's the cause of your initial tripping issue (it's too new) you may have issues in the future even if it's in conduit.

By the way the boxes you want are something like this http://www.directtoshop.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/directtoshop/electrical/electric-wires---equipments/waterproof-boxes-wb305g-3x5-leetech-p212834

Do the lights come apart so you can run your cable directly inside and avoid the need for joints out in the weather?

[IMHO]

@Crossy: are you sure he will be OK with IP65?

Most IP65 J-boxes I've seen use only friction covers, and wouldn't hold up in heavily waterlogged soil.

Based on the IP tables, I'd think probably IP67 (can be immersed in up 1M of water) ?

@OP: If ever you're stuck to find the right electrical accessory, RS components can always come to the rescue.. but at a price

http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/fuses-sockets-circuit-breakers/electrical-installation-accessories/junction-boxes/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294882905,4294885229,4294885167,4294880316&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294958012,cl_4294959499&m=1&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&aaaExp=Y

[Crossy]

If the boxes are out of standing water IP65 should be good enough. I've used loads of the Leetech ones like I linked to, the weak point has always been the holes for the glands (make the hole tight on the gland thread and add some silicon before tightening the back-nut). The box lid which is screwed and with a rubber seal has always held up.

That said, I've got some "IP65" flood lights which gradually fill with water over the rainy season, I've had to drill drain holes to let the water out. Incredibly they don't trip the RCD until the water gets to the lamp holder (which is how I first saw they were filling up).

[UKJASE]

Crossy - i couldnt get a clear photo of the wire, but here is what it says along the wire itself.

"Nation TCI T18 11-2831 Table 2 VAF 2 x 1.5 SQ.MM PVC/PVC 300V 70oC"

That 70oC at the end reads 70 degrees C, but i cant find a degree sign on this keyboard.

I will pick up some of those Leetek boxes today Crossy. Thanks for that. i did have one of those boxes for my switches, and i had a problem popping out the cut outs at either end, so i could put the wires into the box. As they are not perforated, it makes them hard to remove. i ended up drilling lots of small holes along the outline for the hole, and eventually it popped out. this does not lead to a very good seal when the glands are inserted though. Can you tell me what the proper way to remove these "pop out" plastic sections, so that the wires can enter the box?

Good idea about unscrewing the light casing and inserting the wire directly into the light itself. i will investigate it this morning

@IMHO - those RS components do look pricey, but good to know that you get what you pay for. thanks for advice mate

[Crossy]

OK, VAF should do the trick. It can actually be mounted naked, even outside, but needs to be protected from the UV in sunlight, so in conduit is ideal (some people paint it), but don't bury it the PVC doesn't like being constantly wet (and underground conduits always fill with water).

To drill the plastic boxes (the marked cut-outs don't pop out) I have a number of spade bits in varying sizes, like these:-

Run reasonably slowly in the battery drill they make a nice neat hole, a quick clean up with a round file ensures a snug fit for the glands.

[canman]

I would be using heatshrink tubing, scotchkote and electrical tape, done properly it will never leak.

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/ElectricalMkts/ElectricalSupplies/products/sprays-coatings/anti-corrosion-sprays/scotchkote-electrical-coating/

Offset the two wire splices.

Seal each individual splice with scotchkote and then heat shrink

More scotchkote over the two wires and onto the insulation both sides

Slide the last piece of heatshrink over the lot and shrink it down

More scotchkote over the heat shrink and onto the cable insulation and finish up with a layer of electrical tape

[Crossy]

Can you get Scotchcote here in Thailand (readily)?

I can't even find adhesive lined heatshrink in the normal places and have to order from China.

My preferred route for waterproof splices is offset insulated butt crimps with adhesive lined heatshrink over the top, quick, waterproof and permanent.

[IMHO]

Can you get Scotchcote here in Thailand (readily)?

I can't even find adhesive lined heatshrink in the normal places and have to order from China.

My preferred route for waterproof splices is offset insulated butt crimps with adhesive lined heatshrink over the top, quick, waterproof and permanent.

Again, RS, at a price... http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/cables-wires/cable-accessories-ties-tools/heat-shrink-cold-shrink-sleeves/?applied-dimensions=4294877072&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294957923,cl_4294960808&m=1&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1

[Crossy]

Can you get Scotchcote here in Thailand (readily)?

I can't even find adhesive lined heatshrink in the normal places and have to order from China.

My preferred route for waterproof splices is offset insulated butt crimps with adhesive lined heatshrink over the top, quick, waterproof and permanent.

Again, RS, at a price... http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/cables-wires/cable-accessories-ties-tools/heat-shrink-cold-shrink-sleeves/?applied-dimensions=4294877072&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294957923,cl_4294960808&m=1&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1

Do RS actually deal with private individuals now? They certainly wouldn't when I was using them on a regular basis just before the millennium.

[IMHO]

Can you get Scotchcote here in Thailand (readily)?

I can't even find adhesive lined heatshrink in the normal places and have to order from China.

My preferred route for waterproof splices is offset insulated butt crimps with adhesive lined heatshrink over the top, quick, waterproof and permanent.

Again, RS, at a price... http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/cables-wires/cable-accessories-ties-tools/heat-shrink-cold-shrink-sleeves/?applied-dimensions=4294877072&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294957923,cl_4294960808&m=1&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1

Do RS actually deal with private individuals now? They certainly wouldn't when I was using them on a regular basis just before the millennium.

Yep - I have both a company account, and a personal one... Prices do not include VAT (that's added at checkout), but delivery via TNT Express is free.

On some things they're very well priced (Raspberry Pi's, ABL Sursum Schukoultra range, lead acid batteries etc), but mainly they are pretty expensive

But they are really the only vendor stocking a huge range of actual EU/UK/US branded/made products in TH.

Sometimes they are just the only source of quality products - e.g. I recently needed some 316/A4 grade stainless steel concrete anchors (for umbrella stands beside a saltwater pool) - after looking everywhere, even eBay failed me (had sellers, but none shipping to TH) - but as it turns out RS TH have them in-stock for 90 Baht/pc. Not cheap, but I still class it as a win

[canman]

Can you get Scotchcote here in Thailand (readily)?

I can't even find adhesive lined heatshrink in the normal places and have to order from China.

My preferred route for waterproof splices is offset insulated butt crimps with adhesive lined heatshrink over the top, quick, waterproof and permanent.

When I worked in Thailand our procurement girls did get adhesive lined heat shrink and scotchkote. I suspect it was through the local RS agent. If I remember correctly they stocked next to nothing and everything had to be ordered in.

By the way, I have used the above splicing technique for cables working down to 1000m of seawater, a bit of overkill for a garden splice, silicon sealent and regular heat shrink would most likely do the job just fine.

[Crossy]

I quite like the silicon and regular heatshrink idea, I'll give it a go next time the adhesive lined stuff runs out.

It shouldn't need much silicon as the shrinking will force it into any spaces and out of the ends of the splice.

I wonder how the silicon will react to the shrink temperatures.