Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[smedly]

The S*** is slowly hitting the fan...The Sky reporter just to clarify said the translator working for them has been threatened and can not now help them..have listened to it live three times now..also a senior Police guy has said the initial DNA is not able to be tested as it isn't there anymore..or isn't enough to test left..how does that work?

Update, the S*** has well and truly hit the fan, the world is a witness, I cant believe what is being said by the RTP, they've lost the DNA!!!! Disgrace utter disgrace, we are talking about 2 high profile murders and the so called chain of evidence that should have been secure. This trial should now be stopped, how can it convict without the key evidence.

reading between the lines I believe that the evidence provided by UK authorities was going to conflict with Thai police evidence so it has been conveniently lost

The most disturbing thing now is that the real murderers involved in this case will likely never be found nor will there be any further attempt to find them - a shameless charade to say the least and not unexpected by me either

[waza]

"On Thursday, Steve Mitchell, a bar owner who was the last person to photograph the deceased appeared at court. He told reporters outside that he photographs tourists to promote the bar on the website."

Only in Thailand does a crime scene become a walk through tourist attraction.

[stephenterry]

quote: It is absolutely unbelievable, even by the Bib's lowly standards. Everything rests on the DNA evidence which seems to be the only evidence they have (no witnesses to the crime, very circumstantial evidence at best of David's phone found "near" the B2's residence). And now, they don't have this DNA evidence anymore??!!

And yet...... some posters still insist that the police have a rock solid case. I mean, how blind / blinkered / naive / gullible can one be? Even a poor Isaan rice farmer would be able to see it for the farce it is.

I suggest it is more a face savings exercise. They would prefer to be regarded as incompetent than being exposed as providing conflicting/contestable evidence. Which had seemed more and more likely. I would like to hope that at some point the judges would say 'enough is enough' and abandon the trial.

[JLCrab]

You want to have a go at me, fine. This is what I wrote 3 MARCH 2015:

If this is to be a case this summer made totally out of whole-cloth with 60-some prosecution witnesses providing a conga-line of perjured testimony (or what they believe to be truthful testimony even if it is perjured testimony) with the type of world-wide media attention this trial is to receive, I don't think the folks down there on Samui -- many of who are one generation away from coconut farmers -- are good enough to pull that one off.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

Edited July 9, 2015 by JLCrab

[smedly]

It would not surprise me that in Thailand police can submit DNA evidence without actually having the DNA

watch this space

without actually having the physical evidence this should not be admissible - it simply becomes hearsay

[clockman]

Third world, what do you expect!

[scorecard]

"On Thursday, Steve Mitchell, a bar owner who was the last person to photograph the deceased appeared at court. He told reporters outside that he photographs tourists to promote the bar on the website."

Only in Thailand does a crime scene become a walk through tourist attraction.

Along with the local powerful village head man on site directing senior police how to go about their investigation.

[Jimlove]

Thai policeman who lead the initial investigation into murder of 2 British backpackers tells BBC it will impossible to retest DNA samples

https://twitter.com/JonahFisherBBC

So now its down to the RTP and not the judge to decide? This is chaos and we are not currently seeing anything near what one would call a fair and transparent trial

It's an absolute disgrace. This country should NOT be promoted as a safe tourist destination. It is a dangerous 3rd world cesspit that doesn't deserve ANY tourists

and soon hopefully Thailand will have NO tourists - all done by them self and their imbecille actions ... Talk about Karma 5555555

[stephenterry]

The S*** is slowly hitting the fan...The Sky reporter just to clarify said the translator working for them has been threatened and can not now help them..have listened to it live three times now..also a senior Police guy has said the initial DNA is not able to be tested as it isn't there anymore..or isn't enough to test left..how does that work?

Update, the S*** has well and truly hit the fan, the world is a witness, I cant believe what is being said by the RTP, they've lost the DNA!!!! Disgrace utter disgrace, we are talking about 2 high profile murders and the so called chain of evidence that should have been secure. This trial should now be stopped, how can it convict without the key evidence.

That depends. For example, the RTP present the DNA reports, all signed up the line as being genuine, as evidence. All the judge has to say is he will accept it, if the defence isn't able to produce their own conflicting DNA reports provided by the Brit Home Office (which is a possibility).

I could now envisage a lot of activity behind the scenes to broker a deal.

[partington]

There is confusion here between DNA, meaning the DNA material itself, that can be tested in a lab, and the DNA evidence, which is the written report on the tests that have been done, and is a set of typewritten sheets summarising the DNA fingerprint which has been obtained from testing the samples.

In its most basic form this is a list of 10 to 16 pairs of numbers, and is an identification method, exactly like the fingerprint after which it is named. A DNA fingerprint is hundreds of times more unique than an inked fingerprint, because there are more possible combinations of numbers than there are people on the earth (10-100 times more). So when a match of all numbers is obtained (providing the test has been run successfully and the results aren't ambiguous) the probability that it is wrong is zero.

The typed report is what is initially made available to the court. If this does not exist, then this is completely unprecedented: it means they fabricated that this evidence existed, or weren't clever enough to mock up a set of results that would at least look like something. I simply can't believe they have claimed a DNA match with the suspects, claimed that a number of high profile figures have been tested and found not to match, and all the time were intending to turn up in court and not be able to produce it.

This beggars understanding. The destruction "loss" or "finishing of the DNA material itself to prevent re-testing was predictable, but the complete absence of any indication that this evidence ever existed surely can't be the case. They would look worse than fools and liars if this turns out to be what is happening.

However Thai reporting and hearsay reporting changes from minute to minute, and is utterly untrustworthy, so I'm not expecting this to be the actual case at all.

[Gweiloman]

The Koh Samui mafia would probably rather see the scion of the Koh Tao clan convicted if he really did it 'cause, if he gets off for this one, he's bound to cause them more and maybe bigger trouble down the road

Or maybe a few Koh Tao mafia are on Samui taking a keen interest in threatening journalists, and intimidating potential witnesses.

Some of these correspondents have covered the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Sudan. And now you're telling me they're being intimidated buy a bunch of former coconut farmers?

No one is talking about correspondents being threatened or intimidated but local Thai translators. Try to keep up

[Rykbanlor]

Is anyone surprised? Ha!

It remains to see what the judges are made of, at the end of the day.

The mind does boggle that there are so many posters vehemently backing the RTP.

I won't argue anymore or engage with them, but these guys are shills or simpletons, probably with family connections to the Police.

[JLCrab]

The Koh Samui mafia would probably rather see the scion of the Koh Tao clan convicted if he really did it 'cause, if he gets off for this one, he's bound to cause them more and maybe bigger trouble down the road

Or maybe a few Koh Tao mafia are on Samui taking a keen interest in threatening journalists, and intimidating potential witnesses.

Some of these correspondents have covered the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Sudan. And now you're telling me they're being intimidated buy a bunch of former coconut farmers?

No one is talking about correspondents being threatened or intimidated but local Thai translators. Try to keep up

Oh --- and who do the translators work for?

[stephenterry]

You want to have a go at me, fine. This is what I wrote 3 MARCH 2015:

If this is to be a case this summer made totally out of whole-cloth with 60-some prosecution witnesses providing a conga-line of perjured testimony (or what they believe to be truthful testimony even if it is perjured testimony) with the type of world-wide media attention this trial is to receive, I don't think the folks down there on Samui -- many of who are one generation away from coconut farmers -- are good enough to pull that one off.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

What you were responding to is from a post by Boom, if I recollect correctly. Your implication was that it was ridiculous of him to suggest that 60 plus prosecution witnesses would perjure themselves to convict the B2.

[Gweiloman]

There is confusion here between DNA, meaning the DNA material itself, that can be tested in a lab, and the DNA evidence, which is the written report on the tests that have been done, and is a set of typewritten sheets summarising the DNA fingerprint which has been obtained from testing the samples.

In its most basic form this is a list of 10 to 16 pairs of numbers, and is an identification method, exactly like the fingerprint after which it is named. A DNA fingerprint is hundreds of times more unique than an inked fingerprint, because there are more possible combinations of numbers than there are people on the earth (10-100 times more). So when a match of all numbers is obtained (providing the test has been run successfully and the results aren't ambiguous) the probability that it is wrong is zero.

The typed report is what is initially made available to the court. If this does not exist, then this is completely unprecedented: it means they fabricated that this evidence existed, or weren't clever enough to mock up a set of results that would at least look like something. I simply can't believe they have claimed a DNA match with the suspects, claimed that a number of high profile figures have been tested and found not to match, and all the time were intending to turn up in court and not be able to produce it.

This beggars understanding. The destruction "loss" or "finishing of the DNA material itself to prevent re-testing was predictable, but the complete absence of any indication that this evidence ever existed surely can't be the case. They would look worse than fools and liars if this turns out to be what is happening.

However Thai reporting and hearsay reporting changes from minute to minute, and is utterly untrustworthy, so I'm not expecting this to be the actual case at all.

I suspect what they are saying is that the DNA report is available but the actual DNA material (sperm, sputum) have been all used up.

[lucky11]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

well yes of course and I agree but the point I'm trying to understand is this -

Lets suppose for a moment that there is a knock at the door and you open it and there are police standing there who then proceed to arrest you for murder, there has to be a path that led them to come to your door, it is part of an investigative process that made them think you were implicated and also must follow certain legal procedures and will become part of the case if it ever gets to a court, this is before any DNA or questioning has taken place, in the west you need to have a very strong reason for knocking that door and implicating/questioning someone in connection with a murder, if procedure is not followed then you can forget the rest, many cases have been thrown out of court in the west because of procedural failure regardless of any evidence

so my question above - what led the Thai police to the door of these two accused ?

But this is not in the West, didn't happen in the West and didn't involve Western police so what is your point?

[Gweiloman]

Some of these correspondents have covered the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Sudan. And now you're telling me they're being intimidated buy a bunch of former coconut farmers?

No one is talking about correspondents being threatened or intimidated but local Thai translators. Try to keep up

Oh --- and who do the translators work for?

Freelance translators work for whomever engage them in the first place. Whom do you think they work for?

[pinkpanther99]

This tweet from Sky News' Jonathan Samuels tells you all you need to know about people trying to influence this trial:

[pinkpanther99]

[pinkpanther99]

Is this suggesting that some DNA has gone missing?

[thailandchilli]

The level of the Thai prosecution is now beyond farcical and becoming comical if it were not such a serious case, they have now brought in the Rotti seller as the official translator for the court!!

In strange turn of events, prosecutor just brought notorious roti seller to act as official translator in court

https://twitter.com/atomicalandy

I pity the victims parents listening and watching this farce unfolding before them

[Nigeone]

The S*** is slowly hitting the fan...The Sky reporter just to clarify said the translator working for them has been threatened and can not now help them..have listened to it live three times now..also a senior Police guy has said the initial DNA is not able to be tested as it isn't there anymore..or isn't enough to test left..how does that work?

Update, the S*** has well and truly hit the fan, the world is a witness, I cant believe what is being said by the RTP, they've lost the DNA!!!! Disgrace utter disgrace, we are talking about 2 high profile murders and the so called chain of evidence that should have been secure. This trial should now be stopped, how can it convict without the key evidence.

reading between the lines I believe that the evidence provided by UK authorities was going to conflict with Thai police evidence so it has been conveniently lost

The most disturbing thing now is that the real murderers involved in this case will likely never be found nor will there be any further attempt to find them - a shameless charade to say the least and not unexpected by me either

I agree with you..I said in another topic that the Brits have been very quiet,as you would expect from them,and I think politically were probably hoping they wouldn't have to get involved and it looks like they won't. Either I'm wrong or they have been very clever..Nobody knows what the UK police have,including the Thai RTP but the thought that they may have DNA is probably scaring the s*** out of them...And we all know when push comes to shove there not the brightest..It's only day 2, and it's not being anyway near a convincing prosecution case up to now..In fact I would say if this was in a civilised country it would already be thrown out.. Edited July 9, 2015 by Nigeone

[JLCrab]

Some of these correspondents have covered the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Sudan. And now you're telling me they're being intimidated buy a bunch of former coconut farmers?

No one is talking about correspondents being threatened or intimidated but local Thai translators. Try to keep up

Oh --- and who do the translators work for?

Freelance translators work for whomever engage them in the first place. Whom do you think they work for?

well in this case at least one of them works for SKY News. Reuters doesn't need a translator.

[DarloKnight]

The level of the Thai prosecution is now beyond farcical and becoming comical if it were not such a serious case, they have now brought in the Rotti seller as the official translator for the court!!

In strange turn of events, prosecutor just brought notorious roti seller to act as official translator in court

https://twitter.com/atomicalandy

I pity the victims parents listening and watching this farce unfolding before them

Can't believe what I'm reading!

[StealthEnergiser]

[pinkpanther99]

Incredible

[kkup]

Reading comments from the RTP in the guardian seem more like a comedy than a serious court case. Can't find samples, maybe lost / destroyed? He only had 6 months to get his case ready and now he's confused when asked about key evidence? It's an absolute joke.

If that's the best they have, the case should be dismissed to save everyone allot of red faces. Give up while you're behind.

[Nigeone]

Jonathan Samuels..reporting for SKY has reported on numerous occasions this morning that his translator has been warned by Mafia and is now not able to help them with the translations....that's what's happened...

[loonodingle]

Oh and I forgot - what was it that led the police to these two suspects in the first place, ...?

Answer: From the first minutes, Thai officials were frantically trying to nail this on Burmese migrants. The first head cop followed the evidence (what a surprising concept in Thailand!) and it led to the brother and son of the Headman being prime suspects. However, there was too much pressure from Bkk to nail Burmese, so the head cop was yanked off the case, and we know what ensued.

Again you are misrepresenting things.

There were several sets of suspects. All were cleared.

They rest is just garbage to promote your agenda..

Try being informed instead of just opinionated JD.

Your very words.

You do not have to insult people.

[smedly]

There is confusion here between DNA, meaning the DNA material itself, that can be tested in a lab, and the DNA evidence, which is the written report on the tests that have been done, and is a set of typewritten sheets summarising the DNA fingerprint which has been obtained from testing the samples.

In its most basic form this is a list of 10 to 16 pairs of numbers, and is an identification method, exactly like the fingerprint after which it is named. A DNA fingerprint is hundreds of times more unique than an inked fingerprint, because there are more possible combinations of numbers than there are people on the earth (10-100 times more). So when a match of all numbers is obtained (providing the test has been run successfully and the results aren't ambiguous) the probability that it is wrong is zero.

The typed report is what is initially made available to the court. If this does not exist, then this is completely unprecedented: it means they fabricated that this evidence existed, or weren't clever enough to mock up a set of results that would at least look like something. I simply can't believe they have claimed a DNA match with the suspects, claimed that a number of high profile figures have been tested and found not to match, and all the time were intending to turn up in court and not be able to produce it.

This beggars understanding. The destruction "loss" or "finishing of the DNA material itself to prevent re-testing was predictable, but the complete absence of any indication that this evidence ever existed surely can't be the case. They would look worse than fools and liars if this turns out to be what is happening.

However Thai reporting and hearsay reporting changes from minute to minute, and is utterly untrustworthy, so I'm not expecting this to be the actual case at all.

sorry but I have to disagree if I am understanding what you are saying correctly, lets diversify a little and suppose that this was a gun a bullet and a ballistics report - without the gun and bullet the report evidence is useless if challenged