Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[boomerangutang]

Re; the DNA trail: People talk about the possibility of 'planting' evidence, as well as destroying or creating it. While those are possibilities, methinks the most likely and easiest way to alter evidence, is by intentionally mis- or re-labeling it. Doing that would only entail one or two high-up people with access, probably top brass. Afterwards, everyone down the line would have no choice but to accept it at face value.

That's yet another reason why it would be useful to get Brit experts involved. Next best would be re-examination of evidence by objective Thai experts, but who in Thailand is really objective, particularly if they work within the sphere of government? By definition, everyone working in government has a boss, and has to go along with what the boss wants. If a high officer provides a DNA sample to a lab technician and says, "get me the DNA typing for this" the techie is obliged to follow orders. He/she is not going to say, "excuse me sir, can I get independent verification that this sample actually came from who it purportedly came from?"

One possible scenario: At some early point in the investigation, the B2 got their DNA typed. Thai officials wanted a match with the victim. They trash the original type cards of DNA taken from Hannah, then take the B2 DNA type cards, and re-label them: "DNA taken from Hannah." I'm not saying for sure that's what happened, but it's an easy-to-implement scenario which would explain what we've been hearing. And would also explain why Brit experts are kept at arm's length, and would explain why there's so much evasiveness, by Thai officials, for re-examining the DNA trail.

[IslandLover]

"I think we did a pretty good job of sealing the crime scene, although we have a limited number of officers on Koh Tao and so local volunteers helped, said Colonel Kissana Phathanacharoen, the deputy chief spokesman for the Royal Thai Police."

Unbelievable! And this comes from the mouth of the Deputy Chief Spokesman for the Royal Thai Police!

How many police officers does it take to put a ribbon round a crime scene? And does "local volunteers" include one former suspect who was allowed to step over the ribbon and trample around the area along with journalists, other "interested" parties and explicit photographs being taken that were posted on the Internet?

Maybe " a pretty good job" for the 2 or 3 RTP apologists on here but not for me!

Further utterances from the mouths of the RTP:

“We managed to collect cigarette butts, condoms and the weapons they used in the crime. And we have DNA from the body of Miss Witheridge,” said Colonel Kissana Phathanacharoen, the deputy chief spokesman of the Royal Thai Police.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11724506/Controversial-trial-of-alleged-killers-of-British-backpackers-to-start-in-Thailand.html

Condoms??? I thought the ONE condom found at the crime scene had been dscounted as evidence (Hannah's DNA = drop of blood? - found on the outside but nothing on the inside).

[jdinasia]

Re; the DNA trail: People talk about the possibility of 'planting' evidence, as well as destroying or creating it. While those are possibilities, methinks the most likely and easiest way to alter evidence, is by intentionally mis- or re-labeling it. Doing that would only entail one or two high-up people with access, probably top brass. Afterwards, everyone down the line would have no choice but to accept it at face value.

That's yet another reason why it would be useful to get Brit experts involved. Next best would be re-examination of evidence by objective Thai experts, but who in Thailand is really objective, particularly if they work within the sphere of government? By definition, everyone working in government has a boss, and has to go along with what the boss wants. If a high officer provides a DNA sample to a lab technician and says, "get me the DNA typing for this" the techie is obliged to follow orders. He/she is not going to say, "excuse me sir, can I get independent verification that this sample actually came from who it purportedly came from?"

One possible scenario: At some early point in the investigation, the B2 got their DNA typed. Thai officials wanted a match with the victim. They trash the original type cards of DNA taken from Hannah, then take the B2 DNA type cards, and re-label them: "DNA taken from Hannah." I'm not saying for sure that's what happened, but it's an easy-to-implement scenario which would explain what we've been hearing. And would also explain why Brit experts are kept at arm's length, and would explain why there's so much evasiveness, by Thai officials, for re-examining the DNA trail.

More baseless speculation to fit your agenda

[berybert]

Only reason I can think of for your posts are purely to muddy the waters and hijack the thread with irrelevant and meaningless comments

Nothing meaningless about pointing out that the defense is making a claim and that publicly the UK police haven't corroborated it.

It will be interesting if it is true. Personally, I doubt the veracity of the claim, but it is possible.

Lets not forget you are another who for 10 months have told us the Burmese and 100% guilty. No if, and's or buts.

Even if the U.K. said the DNA didn't match and had Hannah exhumed to prove it you would still say the Burmese did it.

Just a thought, if the DNA isn't a match, I wonder who's DNA might have been found in Hannah.

Do you thing it should be retested against those who have already been tested ? Maybe a certain someone could head to Britain and do a test in front of the T.V. cameras.

[Dogmatix]

 

We have suspects and we will be presented with evidence in court. If they are not good enough the "boys" will be set free,

No they will never be set free.

The judges will decide if guilty. Not a public jury. The PM has publicly declared that he has looked at the evidence and that they are guilty.

It's done, finished, over, before it has even begun. This is just for show so Thailand can show and say that there was a fair trial and they were found guilty fairly. What actually happens in the trial doesn't matter a jot to the outcome that is already decided.

 

just like Jason Sudra who was found guilty without even knowing he had committed a crime. following his report of being mugged , the police promptly arrested him, the translator asked him to sign a form to say that what happened was he was mugged outside the hotel, next thing he knows, hes sent to prison. !!! police claim he falsely claimed he had been robbed in an attempted insurance fraud - a crdible story except for one thing, Mr Sudra had no insurance against theft -not suire if the general saw this case or not ( innocent people imprisoned with no trial not being on the ajenda at the end of 2014) - this is Thailand people

The translator was Russian and her knowledge of Thai was as poor as that of the Rohingha pancake seller who translated for and helped police beat up the 2B. Police translators are supposed to be qualified according to Thai law but neither of these two charlatans can read a word of Thai but happily advised their clients to sign confessions in Thai written by bent cops.

[Dogmatix]

I feel sorry for the victims' families who have come to see justice done for their loved ones. They can have no concept of how justice works in a corrupt third world country.

[berybert]

I would like to know how the first policeman in the scene was able to say both bodies where almost naked, when it is clear Hannah was almost fully clothed.

These people have no problem telling lies even when the truth is staring them right in the face.

Did he show a picture of Hannah's broken body which was dressed and told people "look she is virtually naked"?

[JLCrab]

15 September 2014

Island On Lockdown After Gruesome Murder of British Tourists

The bodies were found at around 6.20 am by a group of Burmese workers who were cleaning the beach, Pol.Maj.Gen. Kiattipong said.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410787768&section=00

<snip>

Maybe they didn't close down the piers soon enough so that those that committed these crimes left on the early ferry and have never returned.

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11724506/Controversial-trial-of-alleged-killers-of-British-backpackers-to-start-in-Thailand.html

"Small, slight and baby-faced, neither Zaw Lin nor Wai Phyo look like killers."

What do killers look like?

[berybert]

15 September 2014

Island On Lockdown After Gruesome Murder of British Tourists

The bodies were found at around 6.20 am by a group of Burmese workers who were cleaning the beach, Pol.Maj.Gen. Kiattipong said.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410787768&section=00

<snip>

Maybe they didn't close down the piers soon enough so that those that committed these crimes left on the early ferry and have never returned.

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11724506/Controversial-trial-of-alleged-killers-of-British-backpackers-to-start-in-Thailand.html

"Small, slight and baby-faced, neither Zaw Lin nor Wai Phyo look like killers."

What do killers look like?

How would you know they have never returned ?

Something you would like to share ?

[notmyself]

this case was an absolute farce to begin with the crime scene was tarnished to begin with because people were allowed to walk all over it.

Tide was coming in and was already lapping around Mr. Miller's feet. Should they have collected what evidence they could or just let it all float away?

[JLCrab]

Yes -- I would like to share the word 'maybe'. And I am referring to fellow travels, not anybody local.

[webfact]

BRITISH BACKPACKERS
Accused in Koh Tao murder case want to independently test forensic evidence
The Nation, Agencies

KOH SAMUI: -- THE DOUBLE-MURDER trial over the deaths of two British backpackers on Koh Tao began yesterday with families of the victims issuing statements mourning the deaths of their loved ones.

Myanmar nationals Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun, pleaded not guilty in the court in Koh Samui in Surat Thani province to the murders of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, on the seaside island in September last year.

The gruesome killings hit national and international headlines and negatively damaged Thai tourism and Koh Tao's reputation as a haven for foreigners.

The UK embassy in Bangkok released the statement of Miller's family, saying they had travelled to Koh Samui for the start of the trial into "the horrific murder of our loving son and brother David Miller, and Hannah Witheridge.

"The act which ended David's life devastated our family and his friends. Just hours before he died, David was talking to us with his usual enthusiasm, describing the beauty of Koh Tao and the friendliness of the Thai people. Over the coming weeks we hope to gain a better understanding as to how such a wonderful young man lost his life in such idyllic surroundings in such a horrible way."

"This pain will remain a part of us for the rest of our lives. We have borne our thoughts in silence, as we have not wanted to influence any court proceedings, but simply want to see justice done fairly and openly. We ask the media to afford David and Hannah dignity in the reporting of this trial and also that we are given privacy and respect while we battle with our emotions during the difficult weeks ahead."

For Witheridge's family, the statement said they also attended the trial, which they described as "the horrific murders of our beautiful Hannah, and David Miller". We stand united in our grief with David's family and together wish to have privacy to follow the trial.

"Hannah was a beautiful person, inside and out, she brought a room alive just being there. She was fun, honest and loved life. Her bright future was brutally ended, leaving those who loved her broken with no answers."

They also asked that the media treat Hannah with dignity in their reporting of the trial. "Speculation, rumour and theory have been incredibly hurtful to our family and Hannah's friends, making an already unthinkable time harder to bear.

"Please allow the police and the court to do their jobs during the coming weeks and months. We, of course, want to see those responsible for the brutal murder of our precious girl brought to justice."

When the murders occurred, the UK government invited Thai diplomats from the Thai embassy in London to give a briefing - and UK Prime Minister David Cameron raised the issue when he met his Thai counterpart, General Prayut Chan-o-cha, on the sidelines of the Asia-Europe Summit in Italy.

Both suspects backtracked on their earlier confession, saying they were forced to confess by Thai police. They have been in custody since October and yesterday arrived at court in a prison van with their feet shackled.

When the trial opened yesterday Andy Hall, an activist for a migrants group helping to fund the pair's case, told AFP the judge would decide whether the defence could independently test the controversial forensic evidence against their clients today.

"We feel confident he will allow it," he said of tests the defence had been demanding for months in order for a "fair trial". The defence team had also complained about not being given access to the forensic evidence, despite the court initially ruling in April that they could run their own independent tests. "There's a real lack of adequate disclosure by the prosecution and that worries us about whether there will be a fair trial," Hall, from the Migrant Worker Rights Network, told AFP before the judge confirmed a decision on this would be reached today.

The forensic material from the crime scene has been used by Thai police and prosecutors to insist they had charged the right men, saying it strongly pointed to the Myanmar pair as the perpetrators.

The victims' families have also previously said they have confidence in the case after British investigators reported back to them following a visit to Thailand late last year.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Accused-in-Koh-Tao-murder-case-want-to-independent-30264065.html


-- The Nation 2015-07-09

[fareastguy]

If they committed the crime then it's was disgusting

If they didn't commit the crime then it remains disgusting

The whole investigation was farcical at best... disgusting

Can we believe the evidence against the boys is "tamper free" if not .... disgusting

Will we ever know the truth about what really happened... I don't think so... disgusting

Will the boys be found innocent or be acquitted on poor evidence,,, not a hope in hell !!!!

DISGUSTING !!!!

[smedly]

"We feel confident he will allow it," he said of tests the defence had been demanding for months in order for a "fair trial". The defence team had also complained about not being given access to the forensic evidence, despite the court initially ruling in April that they could run their own independent tests. "There's a real lack of adequate disclosure by the prosecution and that worries us about whether there will be a fair trial," Hall, from the Migrant Worker Rights Network, told AFP before the judge confirmed a decision on this would be reached today.

The forensic material from the crime scene has been used by Thai police and prosecutors to insist they had charged the right men, saying it strongly pointed to the Myanmar pair as the perpetrators.

I was under the impression that independent tests were allowed and had been done as requested by the defence, but it would appear not

not sure there is much to add to that, I will not comment but I'm sure others are thinking exactly what I am thinking

my thoughts are with the family at this very traumatic time, but I do want to see justice in this case ...and verification of the DNA evidence is a key factor, if the police are confident then what is the problem having it verified

Oh and I forgot - what was it that led the police to these two suspects in the first place, was it something about a phone being found outside their residence or something like that, in order to hunt down killers you have a trail of events that lead to the suspects being implicated - the DNA is just verification that the trail was correct

[faranghh]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Families watch as photos of mutilated bodies shown to court

BY ANDY LINES

KOH SAMUI:-- The devastated families of two murdered British backpackers watched as photos of the pair’s mutilated bodies were shown to the court.

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were killed on the Thai holiday isle of Koh Tao.

Relatives attended the chaotic court hearing for the first day of evidence.

Two 22-year-old Burmese immigrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, also known as Win Zaw Htun – who appeared in court in shackles - have been charged with rape and murder.

The accused, both restaurant migrant workers from Burma, will face the death penalty if convicted.

Pictures of how the pair were found were shown to the court.

The first witness Police Lieutenant Jakkapan Kaewkao described how he found David Miller face down in the surf at 6.30am on the morning of September 15.

Lt Jakkapan Kaewkao said: “I found a man’s body lying on the beach with seawater lapping his body.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-backpacker-murder-trial-families-6029654#rlabs=1

[smedly]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

well yes of course and I agree but the point I'm trying to understand is this -

Lets suppose for a moment that there is a knock at the door and you open it and there are police standing there who then proceed to arrest you for murder, there has to be a path that led them to come to your door, it is part of an investigative process that made them think you were implicated and also must follow certain legal procedures and will become part of the case if it ever gets to a court, this is before any DNA or questioning has taken place, in the west you need to have a very strong reason for knocking that door and implicating/questioning someone in connection with a murder, if procedure is not followed then you can forget the rest, many cases have been thrown out of court in the west because of procedural failure regardless of any evidence

so my question above - what led the Thai police to the door of these two accused ?

[JLCrab]

From The Mirror as above http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-backpacker-murder-trial-families-6029654#rlabs=1

The defendants’ lawyers criticised police handling of the case during cross examination, accusing officers of failing to secure the crime scene.

They asked the lieutenant why Mr Miller’s body was moved before medics or a forensic team arrived.

Lt Jakkapan said he moved Mr Miller’s body to stop it being washed away.

Oh well ...

[GOLDBUGGY]

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

You can match DNA of a child to a Parent as in many ways they are close. But being close only counts when you are throwing Horse Shoes or Grenades. Being close doesn't count as Evidence in a Court of Law.

If what you said was true then many DNA Matches they have matched for Crimes could actually be the Father, or Mother, or even a Twin Brother.

GOLDBUGGY,

You misunderstand me.

We all have 50% of our mother's DNA and 50% of our father's DNA. If you take a sample from each parent and compare it to a DNA sample from the scene of a crime it will be apparent whether or not the child of those parents could be a possible match.

I am not suggesting that the child will have identical DNA to that of either parent.

If that is true what you say, then there is also 50% of the Father's DNA, and 50% of the Mother's DNA that the accused doesn't have. So how do you scene that from the Parents to get the exact match with the accused?

I am sorry but I don't buy this. Your Theory and Revolutionary Idea may makes sense to you but not to me. I have never heard of anyone accused of Murder at a Murder Trial by using only the Parents DNA as Evidence, and I doubt you have either.

[arrowsdawdle]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

Even chain of custody for the DNA could be compromised by crony Thainess and baht in brown envelopes. Not to mention that other DNA that may have been on the corpses or the wooden hoe but no mention has been made of that. How likely would it be that the hoe had only one set of DNA on it? Impossible.

[IslandLover]

I would like to know how the first policeman in the scene was able to say both bodies where almost naked, when it is clear Hannah was almost fully clothed.

These people have no problem telling lies even when the truth is staring them right in the face.

Did he show a picture of Hannah's broken body which was dressed and told people "look she is virtually naked"?

According to all the press reports/photos/videos on Thai television from the crime scene before the trial started, David was totally naked so I find the testimony of this police witness rather odd, to say the least. On the other hand Hannah was found partially clothed, i.e. she was still wearing her top and skirt.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I wonder why the UK did not make the reports from the UK coppers that went over. The UK government keeping Thai authorities happy by saying nothing. The court case should be held a long way away.

Will be a white wash I am thinking.

I would guess that this was part of the agreement for the UK Investigative Team to be allowed in Thailand to observe. You wouldn't want the shoe on the other foot and have a Thai Investigative Team be allowed into the UK to observe and ongoing case, then come home and spill the beans to the Media, would you?

In Canada, the Police will only mention the accused name, and what he is charged with, and what crime he is accused of committing. They never discuss evidence they have or details although they may say they feel they have a strong case against him. I think this is standard protocol. But in this case it seems they were allowed by there Superiors, to discuss this case with the Victims Families.

And in Thailand, this is the type of statement that the Deputy Chief Spokesman for the Royal Thai Police makes:- "I think we did a pretty good job of sealing the crime scene, although we have a limited number of officers on Koh Tao and so local volunteers helped".

I believe the topic we were on was to discuss why the UK Police did not disclose to the public what they found.

You are obviously on a different topic altogether.

You still didn't read the subject matter and try to side track that.

Again! The question was why the UK Investigative Team did not share their information to the general public. Please NOTE he said UK Team and not Thailand Investigative Team.

My answer was this is normal protocol in an ongoing murder investigation and that in Canada they do the same thing.

You came back with some Blah!Blah!Blah! that had nothing to do with what we were discussing at that time.So as I said, you are obviously on a different topic.

[boomerangutang]

Oh and I forgot - what was it that led the police to these two suspects in the first place, ...?

Answer: From the first minutes, Thai officials were frantically trying to nail this on Burmese migrants. The first head cop followed the evidence (what a surprising concept in Thailand!) and it led to the brother and son of the Headman being prime suspects. However, there was too much pressure from Bkk to nail Burmese, so the head cop was yanked off the case, and we know what ensued.

[mmh8]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

well yes of course and I agree but the point I'm trying to understand is this -

Lets suppose for a moment that there is a knock at the door and you open it and there are police standing there who then proceed to arrest you for murder, there has to be a path that led them to come to your door, it is part of an investigative process that made them think you were implicated and also must follow certain legal procedures and will become part of the case if it ever gets to a court, this is before any DNA or questioning has taken place, in the west you need to have a very strong reason for knocking that door and implicating/questioning someone in connection with a murder, if procedure is not followed then you can forget the rest, many cases have been thrown out of court in the west because of procedural failure regardless of any evidence

so my question above - what led the Thai police to the door of these two accused ?

you have a good point there, if they are capable of actual policing and detective work lets hope the Thai police find out whos responsible for rohingue death at the mass graves in the south.

[Rykbanlor]

I reckon the boys also know who did it, and while they may have been brave enough to recant their confessions citing duress, they will certainly be too terrified to say who actually did it. I am sure they know how much influence and power is at the hands of the real perps, and being a stuck in that h there jail would not be a safe place for a witness to be.

[Rykbanlor]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

well yes of course and I agree but the point I'm trying to understand is this -

Lets suppose for a moment that there is a knock at the door and you open it and there are police standing there who then proceed to arrest you for murder, there has to be a path that led them to come to your door, it is part of an investigative process that made them think you were implicated and also must follow certain legal procedures and will become part of the case if it ever gets to a court, this is before any DNA or questioning has taken place, in the west you need to have a very strong reason for knocking that door and implicating/questioning someone in connection with a murder, if procedure is not followed then you can forget the rest, many cases have been thrown out of court in the west because of procedural failure regardless of any evidence

so my question above - what led the Thai police to the door of these two accused ?

you have a good point there, if they are capable of actual policing and detective work lets hope the Thai police find out whos responsible for rohingue death at the mass graves in the south.

Because the boys were near the scene at some time during the night. First easiest target. I find it strange that the original police chief announced that he had very strong evidence against the you know whos and then magically that dissapeared and that police chief was transferred.

[jdinasia]

Oh and I forgot - what was it that led the police to these two suspects in the first place, ...?

Answer: From the first minutes, Thai officials were frantically trying to nail this on Burmese migrants. The first head cop followed the evidence (what a surprising concept in Thailand!) and it led to the brother and son of the Headman being prime suspects. However, there was too much pressure from Bkk to nail Burmese, so the head cop was yanked off the case, and we know what ensued.

Again you are misrepresenting things.

There were several sets of suspects. All were cleared.

They rest is just garbage to promote your agenda..

[StealthEnergiser]

15 September 2014

Island On Lockdown After Gruesome Murder of British Tourists

The bodies were found at around 6.20 am by a group of Burmese workers who were cleaning the beach, Pol.Maj.Gen. Kiattipong said.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410787768&section=00

<snip>

Maybe they didn't close down the piers soon enough so that those that committed these crimes left on the early ferry and have never returned.

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11724506/Controversial-trial-of-alleged-killers-of-British-backpackers-to-start-in-Thailand.html

"Small, slight and baby-faced, neither Zaw Lin nor Wai Phyo look like killers."

What do killers look like?

You edited my post and removed the below there is a significant difference between cleaners finding the bodies or police it looks like the story is being changed maybe no phone records to verify the police initial reports maybe the person who notified him is not a burmese cleaner.

"Its interesting that the police have not called the cleaners in as their first witnesses seeing that they were first on the scene , the defence should make sure police are telling the truth and the cleaners and police phones checked to verify."

[StealthEnergiser]

'Significant' new evidence supplied by UK as British backpackers murder trial begins The families of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, who were killed on the island of Koh Tao last September, arrive in court for trial of two Burmese suspects

The families of two British backpackers murdered in Thailand last year arrived for the start of the trial of the alleged killers just as the defence revealed that new evidence supplied by the British authorities could prove their innocence.

Hannah Witheridge, 23, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, and David Miller, 24, from Jersey, were killed on the island of Koh Tao last September.

Their battered bodies were discovered on Sairee Beach on the morning of September 15. Two Burmese migrant workers, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, are standing trial for their murders on the nearby island of Koh Samui.

Just before the families arrived at the Koh Samui Provincial Court, lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat said: “We have received information from the British authorities that shows inconsistencies in the prosecution case. It is significant evidence.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11725454/Thai-police-officer-describes-finding-bodies-of-British-backpackers-during-murder-trial.html

[BoristheBlade]

I reckon the boys also know who did it, and while they may have been brave enough to recant their confessions citing duress, they will certainly be too terrified to say who actually did it. I am sure they know how much influence and power is at the hands of the real perps, and being a stuck in that h there jail would not be a safe place for a witness to be.

I agree, and would not be surprised a "deal" has taken place.

The Burmeses go on a show trial, found guilty, but then released on appeal.

No retrial, case dismissed.

Real perpetrators free, and no loss of face for the Thai's involved.