Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Mooner]

Police have used cigarette buts to solve murders 30 to 40 years old before but in Thailand it finishes after less than a year.

[dotpoom]

"Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told;"

Didn't see any reference to this header in the article...unless it meant to read "witnesses", then I suppose it's a reference to the treatment of the two accused.

[Thaidream]

It seems rather convenient for the prosecution that all the samples have been used up in their entirety- normally the police must keep some DNA for appeals or other issues to resolving a case. Don't the British investigators have some of the same samples and if they do- I bet theirs are not 'used up'. For God's sake it takes 2 days of back and forth just to find out the status of the DNA evidence. You just want to say in the sternest voice possible-"Do you have the DNA or not? Yes or No. It will never happen like that and we all know why. Never a direct answer to a question in Thailand.

[Equalizer]

Mr Nakhon if you expect justice to be done i would expect all parties to be able to scrutinise evidence and ask serious questions of the investigative process.

I feel dreadfully sorry for the boys on trial. I just can't see how they did it when all viable evidence points elsewhere. They've suffered enough so hope they are acquitted sooner rather than later

Explain how all viable evidence points elsewhere?

We have suspects and we will be presented with evidence in court. If they are not good enough the "boys" will be set free,

The evidence has gone missing apparently. So it is now pointing else where.

[sambum]

BANGKOK: The national police chief has dismissed as a misunderstanding on the part of the defence lawyer and foreign media that the DNA tests of two Myanmar migrant workers charged with the killing of two British tourists on Koh Tao last September have gone missing.

Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang clarified Friday that the DNA tests had been sent to the Forensic Science Institute for examation and then returned to the enquiry officers in charge of the murder case to be incorporated in the case file for court trial.

No misunderstanding here regarding that "clarification"! I said yesterday that early on in the case, somebody had suggested that key evidence would get "lost" along the way. What Pol Gen Somyot is saying is that the actual tests have not gone missing i.e. the reports or findings from the tests, but later reports indicate that the material tested has been "finished" or "lost" or "that there was only enough material to do one test." I must admit, I didn't see that one coming! Sorry if this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but "let's do the tests and then get rid of, or contaminate what material is left so that it can't be retested"

I wouldn't put anything past the RTP or bthe prosecution in this case, and I must admit that I thought "independent testing" would involve the material being tested in another country, not at the same place as the original tests were carried out by someone who apparently is well respected, but in her present capacity could certainly be "leaned upon". Or is that another "misunderstanding"?

Edited July 10, 2015 by sambum

[bamukloy]

I have not had an opinion till now on this case. Now I do and hope these judges have common sense.

I have no idea as I said in my last post how a condom is part of the evidence and if a proper DNA test was done I am 99% certain

it will come up without and DNA of the Myanmar suspects.

I have been a journalist for more than 30 years. covering many rape/murder scenes. Never in my reporting history has a condom been used by someone who is

raping and murdering someone. That type of mind set does not say " OH I am going to have sex with this person I will murder later so I should where a condom" or the other mind set is

" I Had better wear a condom so I don't leave my DNA"

Unless it is a boyfriend/girlfriend. husband/wife situation I don't think the mastermind of this murder will use a condom .

This whole case smells I hope these guy guilty or not have good lawyers

why the condom is even evidence is beyond me. They certainly cant say the B2 used it, as it conflicts with their evidence that DNA semen of the B2 were found on Hanna.

Of course the other unspeakably horrible theory that would possibly fit their scenario would be if the condom was put on the handle end of the hoe.

Given that they are claiming a "lust crime" as motive of the B2, that just doesnt fit.

It fits with anger,bitter hatred, and revenge.

Its beyond belief, if it pans out to be true, how anyone could be so dispicable to put pictures of themselves on social media, posing and smiling along side a hoe, just after all this went down.

If all this gets put out on widely on western media there will be no need for anyone to silence witnesses or reporters.....I would surmise any moon parties on that island will consist of a few locals sitting around a fire reminiscing the good old days

[phantomfiddler]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the burmese pair actually did commit this gruesome crime ? The very first thing that any s***bag defence lawyer is going to do is instruct his clients to retract their confession and say it was obtained through beating. Just a thought. I have fired numerous staff in this country for theft, and never has one admitted it, and to look at them you would think them so sweet and pure they would be incapable of any wrongdoing. Hopefully real evidence will shed some light on the situation.

[scorecard]

So DNA Analysis was taken from condoms at the crime scene. Do we really believe a rapist would use a condom especially in the environment concerned?

I read the comment but I despair at such automatic standard / rote answers.

Does anybody really know a perfect indisputable answer to this question?

I don't think so.

There must be the possibility that a person wants to rape but is totally terrified of becoming HIV+ from any sexual contact therefore quickly puts on a condom.

Surely this could also be true if the rapist has lost family members / friends to AIDS.

[docshock13]

https://twitter.com/JonahFisherBBC/status/619445648316719104'>

So whatever the reason no tests possible, so where does that leave a case that was clinging to this vital evidence

Good question. No INDEPENDENT RETESTS possible. It leaves the court with only one source of DNA evidence (the reports and conclusions provided by the RTP and prosecution, not actual viable samples to independently retest). So, the court is expected to take the RTP's and prosecution's word. It's all in the script written last year. The actors just needed time to get their lines straight.

[boomerangutang]

Hopefully some things will fall into place when Montriwat Tuwichian is questioned by the defence about his 15th September early morning jog in his pants.

Meanwhile, investigators detained Montriwat Tuwichian, 45, a younger brother of Mr Woraphan, after confirming Mr Montriwat is the Asian-looking suspect caught insecurity camera images a few hours before the two Britons were found dead on the beach on the morning of Sept 15.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/search/simple.do;jsessionid=77520D0824208C96EC15C72B6700A0C8?searchString=koh+tao&pageNumber=1&articleTypes=+news+opinion+advice&pageLength=5&destinationSectionId=219&sectionId=69&publicationName=mirror&sortString=publishdate&sortOrder=desc

Unfortunately I don't think its possible for the defence to question Montriwat as Montriwat is not on trial. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

The defense can question him, but probably in a limited way (parameters set by court), such as "Did you contact authorities when you became aware of the crime?" "What time did you become aware of the crime" and benign insipid questions like that..

He might be called later as a defense witness, where the defense may not be as limited by the court in their line of questioning. I don't know. But there are some BIG issues that Mon could clear up - if he told the truth, and that's a BIG IF. Here's a sampler. . . . . .

>>> Did you refuse to hand over CCTV footage from the bar you manage, and if so, why?

>>> Do you claim it is you in the 'Running Man' CCTV ? If so, how can a middle aged man look like a skinny 20 yr old?

>>> Would you be willing to offer a sample for DNA testing. If not, why not?

>>> Did you speak with any official at Nok Air from Sept 15 onwards? What was said?

>>> Did you speak with Sean? Was it confrontational? What was said, and why?

>>> Who is the man with you, when you spoke with Sean, when Sean was cowering behind a counter at a convenience store? What was said? Is he a policeman, and what is his connection to the crime or the aftermath? Remember, you're under oath.

>>> Can we see the records of your phone calls from Sunday night, the 14th, on through the next two weeks?

>>> How do you get laundry done?

>>> What did the police ask you, for the 3 hours they questioned you, right after the crime. What were your answers?

>>> What has your brother, the Headman, said about the crime? To your knowledge has he offered any money or gifts (hush money, or....) to anyone, regarding the crime? Why do you think he said his son, Nomsod, left the island on Monday morning?

>>> When police were looking for your nephew, Nomsod, as a prime suspect in the crime. Did you inform him he was wanted? What else did you talk about? Did you assist him in evading police? If so, how?

>>> Did you have any interactions with David or Hannah for the days or hours before the crime? Please articulate.

>>> Did you have any involvement with the execution or cover-up of the crime on any level?

[Lorn]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the burmese pair actually did commit this gruesome crime ? The very first thing that any s***bag defence lawyer is going to do is instruct his clients to retract their confession and say it was obtained through beating. Just a thought. I have fired numerous staff in this country for theft, and never has one admitted it, and to look at them you would think them so sweet and pure they would be incapable of any wrongdoing. Hopefully real evidence will shed some light on the situation.

Of course I've considered that remote possibility. But their size and their confession along with the reenactment made no sense. If someone could come up with a plausible explanation for how those two tiny men, who were undoubtedly very tired and probably fairly drunk managed to overpower a man much bigger than them and have him sustain the wounds he did while they suffered none, while at the same time ensuring that Hannah did not escape then I might consider it possible. But instead we have had nonsensical story after story from the RTP.

[minikev]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the burmese pair actually did commit this gruesome crime ? The very first thing that any s***bag defence lawyer is going to do is instruct his clients to retract their confession and say it was obtained through beating. Just a thought. I have fired numerous staff in this country for theft, and never has one admitted it, and to look at them you would think them so sweet and pure they would be incapable of any wrongdoing. Hopefully real evidence will shed some light on the situati

Of course people have considered that they may have actually done it. I have read and re read thousands of posts with so many theories. It is now up to the prosecution to show evidence that they did it.

The real point is that there was real reason to look elsewhere but this was ignored even when it seems the evidence against these 2 is very weak at best (so far) maybe there will be something new that we haven't heard about yet and maybe the police have kept something back for the prosecution IE bite marks.

If all there is to this perfect case comes down to DNA evidence that was compromised from the beginning as it was collected incorrectly and then original samples lost or used up then there isn't really a case against them is there.

And then there is just plain common sense they wouldn't physically be able to do it while they were putting on their condoms that didn't even have their DNA on them and then got lost. Cmon it's a farce!

[loonodingle]

So now we have reports that the hair found in Hannah's hand contains the DNA of one of the accused. All reports of this hair being found stated clearly it was blonde. The 2 accused did not have blonde hair, the cctv is evidence to this. Oh but wait the hair is also now lost so all they have is the record. Or put it another way, all they have is the word of the RTP since we have also now found out that all samples were actually conducted and tested by the RTP forensics and not Singapore.

Also the cigarette butts cannot finish or degenerate, where are they?

Somyots waste paper bin??

Just an idea...

[scorecard]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the burmese pair actually did commit this gruesome crime ? The very first thing that any s***bag defence lawyer is going to do is instruct his clients to retract their confession and say it was obtained through beating. Just a thought. I have fired numerous staff in this country for theft, and never has one admitted it, and to look at them you would think them so sweet and pure they would be incapable of any wrongdoing. Hopefully real evidence will shed some light on the situation.

So because you fired some staff for dishonesty it's therefore pretty much automatic these two Burmese young men are guilty. This is reality in every country in the world.

Defense lawyers are shit bag lawyers - there's a great automatic, unfair, and unbalanced assumption.

Obtained through beating. Who knows? Do you know? In fact it's not possible that you know if this is true or not, but it has happened before in all countries and many times before in Thailand - proven!!!

[maoro2013]

I didn't think there was any DNA evidence to retest, we are told it is lost.

[Lorn]

I didn't think there was any DNA evidence to retest, we are told it is lost.

The "less important" DNA eg. from the cigarette butt is used up or maybe lost. The more important DNA is supposedly safe in Bangkok.

[loonodingle]

BANGKOK: The national police chief has dismissed as a misunderstanding on the part of the defence lawyer and foreign media that the DNA tests of two Myanmar migrant workers charged with the killing of two British tourists on Koh Tao last September have gone missing.

Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang clarified Friday that the DNA tests had been sent to the Forensic Science Institute for examation and then returned to the enquiry officers in charge of the murder case to be incorporated in the case file for court trial.

No misunderstanding here regarding that "clarification"! I said yesterday that early on in the case, somebody had suggested that key evidence would get "lost" along the way. What Pol Gen Somyot is saying is that the actual tests have not gone missing i.e. the reports or findings from the tests, but later reports indicate that the material tested has been "finished" or "lost" or "that there was only enough material to do one test." I must admit, I didn't see that one coming! Sorry if this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but "let's do the tests and then get rid of, or contaminate what material is left so that it can't be retested"

I wouldn't put anything past the RTP or bthe prosecution in this case, and I must admit that I thought "independent testing" would involve the material being tested in another country, not at the same place as the original tests were carried out by someone who apparently is well respected, but in her present capacity could certainly be "leaned upon". Or is that another "misunderstanding"?

Not sure how you didn't see that coming. Lets face it 100,000 + people signed a petition for independent verification of the DNA. Prayut agreed so we sent a Norfolk forensics officer along with 2 other officers to Thailand. They then where refused access to the evidence and that's been confirmed in a letter from the Met Polee confirming this. See attachment.

I personally harangued Hannah's MP Brandon Lewis asking him to make sure he gets David Cameron to kick up a fuss. Whilst they thought I was a nutter maybe its all coming home to roost for the UK Gov now isn't.

The poor family's of ALL involved while this charade plays out in the worlds media.

The DNA is all they have linking the young men... Its not illegal to be on a beach or smoke a cigarette. and they have lost the samples..

God help any us if we get into trouble in Thailand. I know from personal experience how the law works.

[scorecard]

It seems rather convenient for the prosecution that all the samples have been used up in their entirety- normally the police must keep some DNA for appeals or other issues to resolving a case. Don't the British investigators have some of the same samples and if they do- I bet theirs are not 'used up'. For God's sake it takes 2 days of back and forth just to find out the status of the DNA evidence. You just want to say in the sternest voice possible-"Do you have the DNA or not? Yes or No. It will never happen like that and we all know why. Never a direct answer to a question in Thailand.

Good comment and It makes me think of another view - Just how much time and effort did the prosecutor team put into anticipating the possible comments / questions / scenarios that could evolve once the case actually started and then prepare for these scenarios?

Seems like zero.

How unprofessional is that?

Edited July 10, 2015 by scorecard

[boomerangutang]

So whatever the reason no tests possible, so where does that leave a case that was clinging to this vital evidence

Good question. No INDEPENDENT RETESTS possible. It leaves the court with only one source of DNA evidence (the reports and conclusions provided by the RTP and prosecution, not actual viable samples to independently retest). So, the court is expected to take the RTP's and prosecution's word. It's all in the script written last year. The actors just needed time to get their lines straight.

I think it might be possible to get re-examination of some DNA. The police chief said there's still some DNA in storage. However, his credence quotient is low, so trusting samples stored-by and provided by the RTP - takes a leap of naive trust.

That's why findings by Brit Coroner's Office is vital - for any semblence of credence re; DNA in this case.

As for condom and cig butt, fogedabowdit, they're red herrings. The less said about them, the better. I had wondered if the 'blonde hair' might reveal anything, but it's now officially lost, so we can forget about that also. Maybe it pointed to one of the people who the RTP are shielding, so that would explain why it's conveniently 'lost.'

There are so many bits of evidence and qualifying issues in this case - but at the pace it's going, with 3 days gone already, it looks like the trial may only touch upon 7% of relevant evidence and issues. Just one issue: After the judge approved (in late April), and the put off the defense's request (in early June) to have key evidence re-examined, he said that he will make a decision on the first day of the trial (July 8). On that first day, he said he would make a decision on the following day - which was Thursday, yesterday. Now we're at Friday. Has he made a decision, or will he continue to postpone the decision?

[sambum]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the burmese pair actually did commit this gruesome crime ? The very first thing that any s***bag defence lawyer is going to do is instruct his clients to retract their confession and say it was obtained through beating. Just a thought. I have fired numerous staff in this country for theft, and never has one admitted it, and to look at them you would think them so sweet and pure they would be incapable of any wrongdoing. Hopefully real evidence will shed some light on the situation.

Of course I've considered that remote possibility. But their size and their confession along with the reenactment made no sense. If someone could come up with a plausible explanation for how those two tiny men, who were undoubtedly very tired and probably fairly drunk managed to overpower a man much bigger than them and have him sustain the wounds he did while they suffered none, while at the same time ensuring that Hannah did not escape then I might consider it possible. But instead we have had nonsensical story after story from the RTP.

"But instead we have had nonsensical story after story from the RTP."

Indeed we have - right from the start and they're still going on. One would think that the Big Boss would just tell them to say "No comment" after all the contradictory stories and blunders that have taken place. It's as if they either want to be constantly in the spotlight, or they just don't care, as everything is already taken care of, so whatever they say, it's exactly as you say "a story"

[StealthEnergiser]

1 piece of hair or many and where it was found it depends what newspaper you read .

He had recently dyed his hair black when originally his hair was dyed blond.

Some blond strands of human hair were found at the scene and were kept as evidence. Police are awaiting DNA test results to confirm their case.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/three-migrant-workers-confess-rape-murder-british-tourists

Region 8 Police Commander Panya Mamen told PhuketWan: ‘David Miller’s luggage contains a pair of bloodstained pants, which adds to the mystery.

‘There was also blonde hair on a mobile telephone police have now located.’

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/briton-christopher-ware-called-back-to-koh-tao-by-thai-police.html

Blonde hairs found in victim's hand

Investigators say blonde hairs were discovered in Hannah Witheridge's right hand.

These are now being tested for DNA as police probe whether they could have belonged to the killer.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-backpackers-thailand-murders-recap-4272933

Forensics experts in Bangkok said they found, and are now DNA-testing, blonde hairs in Witheridge's right hand. Police also found a pair of Ware's blood-stained pants from in Miller's luggage and an Apple iPhone with long blonde hairs snagged on it. - See more at: http://www.thephuketnews.com/autopsy-points-to-sex-struggle-in-koh-tao-murders-48760.php#sthash.KXmjqBUQ.dpuf

The police chief said that fragments of hair belonging to a foreigner had been found by Bangkok forensics experts, in the hand of Ms Witheridge, 23, who was murdered on Monday morning, along with Mr Miller, 24. Mr Ware has blonde hair and Mr Miller had brown hair.

He did not explain how the police knew that the hair was from a foreigner, and from the potential killer, rather than from Mr Miller or one of Ms Witheridge’s other companions. Since the bodies were discovered on a rocky beach, questions have arisen about the competence of the police.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/thai-police-question-british-man-christopher-alan-ware-over-british-tourist-murders-on-koh-tao/story-fnizu68q-1227061922322

[minikev]

I didn't think there was any DNA evidence to retest, we are told it is lost.

The "less important" DNA eg. from the cigarette butt is used up or maybe lost. The more important DNA is supposedly safe in Bangkok.

The red L&M cigarette butt or butts was the reason for the police to knock on the B2's door as they were supposed to have bought L&M red that evening. I'd say they are quite important pieces of evidence.

[Bung]

One thing that is clear in this whole charade and one that i often tell people is that for whatever reason you do not want the rtp coming into your life here. Whether you are a victim or accused, do not let the rtp into your life. It will never work on your favour, it will always end badly. You are better of leaving than have that happen. Seen it many times in 17 years here. Any Thai will say the same thing. They are capable of doing whatever they like to come to an end result that suits them, usually financial.

[partington]

It is simply not credible that all the DNA from rape case samples is used up during the testing. This is a claim that proves itself untrue by being made. The tiniest swab of semen from a rape victim provides enough DNA for thousands of tests.

This is something that could be verified by anybody in the field, and a simple cross examination of the actual lab personnel that performed the tests would be enough to dismiss this story.

It is becoming clear that the Thai police are making deliberately confusing statements, where they are sometimes referring to the written report on the DNA tests that were done, and sometimes referring to the actual DNA that was collected, and changing the subject being discussed from query to query.

As it's clear they don't want the rape DNA to be retested, it won't be, and I suppose there's an end to it.

[loonodingle]

I didn't think there was any DNA evidence to retest, we are told it is lost.

The "less important" DNA eg. from the cigarette butt is used up or maybe lost. The more important DNA is supposedly safe in Bangkok.

The red L&M cigarette butt or butts was the reason for the police to knock on the B2's door as they were supposed to have bought L&M red that evening. I'd say they are quite important pieces of evidence.

Looks like having a Fag on the beach makes you a murderer then??

The important stuff like the semen samples not available. Don't get knocked off course Kev. It could of been you who had a fag that night and now locked up after you gave in to repeated torture. Just remember there was 3 DNA profile from Hannah as well. 2 are in the dock accused of being the guilty people.

[sambum]

BANGKOK: The national police chief has dismissed as a misunderstanding on the part of the defence lawyer and foreign media that the DNA tests of two Myanmar migrant workers charged with the killing of two British tourists on Koh Tao last September have gone missing.

Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang clarified Friday that the DNA tests had been sent to the Forensic Science Institute for examation and then returned to the enquiry officers in charge of the murder case to be incorporated in the case file for court trial.

No misunderstanding here regarding that "clarification"! I said yesterday that early on in the case, somebody had suggested that key evidence would get "lost" along the way. What Pol Gen Somyot is saying is that the actual tests have not gone missing i.e. the reports or findings from the tests, but later reports indicate that the material tested has been "finished" or "lost" or "that there was only enough material to do one test." I must admit, I didn't see that one coming! Sorry if this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but "let's do the tests and then get rid of, or contaminate what material is left so that it can't be retested"

I wouldn't put anything past the RTP or bthe prosecution in this case, and I must admit that I thought "independent testing" would involve the material being tested in another country, not at the same place as the original tests were carried out by someone who apparently is well respected, but in her present capacity could certainly be "leaned upon". Or is that another "misunderstanding"?

Not sure how you didn't see that coming. Lets face it 100,000 + people signed a petition for independent verification of the DNA. Prayut agreed so we sent a Norfolk forensics officer along with 2 other officers to Thailand. They then where refused access to the evidence and that's been confirmed in a letter from the Met Polee confirming this. See attachment.

I personally harangued Hannah's MP Brandon Lewis asking him to make sure he gets David Cameron to kick up a fuss. Whilst they thought I was a nutter maybe its all coming home to roost for the UK Gov now isn't.

The poor family's of ALL involved while this charade plays out in the worlds media.

The DNA is all they have linking the young men... Its not illegal to be on a beach or smoke a cigarette. and they have lost the samples..

God help any us if we get into trouble in Thailand. I know from personal experience how the law works.

Met Police 1.jpg

Met Police 2.jpg

Thank you for the insight! I should perhaps have been a bit more specific in my post:-

"that there was only enough material to do one test." I must admit, I didn't see that one coming!

Edited July 10, 2015 by sambum

[Prbkk]

I don't give a sh-t about Thainess or the roti seller. There's something about this translator story that doesn't make sense.

No matter what the issue is, if it doesn't fit with your version of 'the truth' you reject out of hand. What possible motive would an interpreter have for making up a story about being warned off. It DOES have a ring of truth, all things considered.

[animatic]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

Edited July 10, 2015 by animatic

[boomerangutang]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

Was that prosecutor involved with the case? If so, perhaps he expressed doubts about the solidity of getting a conviction, and that could have angered some peopel, who then....... Sorry for speculating, but perhaps he looked at (and gave credence to) evidence which pointed to the real killers. That would have really spooked some important people at Ko Tao.

[JLCrab]

No matter what the issue is, if it doesn't fit with your version of 'the truth' you reject out of hand. What possible motive would an interpreter have for making up a story about being warned off. It DOES have a ring of truth, all things considered.

Well Jonathan Samuels of SKY News, who claimed that his translator had been 'warned off', filed a report today from Koh Samui so either the 'warned off' translator is still there, he found another non-warned off translator, or he has learned courtroom-vocabulary Thai very fast.

Edited July 10, 2015 by JLCrab