Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[007cableguy]

Good to see that this sham is being highlighted in the British press

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157851/Is-Thai-murder-trial-set-collapse-Families-British-backpackers-fly-home-defence-lawyers-call-suspects-acquitted-claims-missing-evidence-crime-scene-blunders.html

[lemonjelly]

Comparisons for the running man and village headman's son

Haven't seen that one before, but it's clearly him.

[StealthEnergiser]

Forensic police swabbing the hoe that possibly had DNA removed.

[GOLDBUGGY]

David's Missing Mobile Phone Explained.

Almost from day one there has been confusion about the missing Mobile Phone. At first it was reported by the media that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone, which it was not. I really don't know why it was reported this way by the person in charge. Was he misinformed? Was it media reported incorrectly? Was it lost in the translation? Was it just a mistake he made? But either way he had no reason to lie as they did have a missing Mobile Phone in their possession at that time, which is stated to belong to David Miller.

As reported by the media, on October 7th, or thereabouts, a Senior Police Official was on the evening news to explain exactly how they found David Miller's Mobile Phone. He said they knew quickly it was missing from the body from information gained by David's Friends and Relatives. (Which may be a very good indication he did not lose it earlier, because if he did he did not tell any of his friends who police contacted). But at that time this was not reported to the press.

Later, after the two suspects were arrested and had confessed to this crime, the police asked them about David Miller's Mobile Phone. One of the suspects (not named) said he left it with a friend. When the police later questioned that friend, he led them to the Mobile Phone. The friend said he had grave doubts about this Mobile Phone, and where it really came from, so he threw it away behind his living quarters.

If this is true then I am pretty sure it will all come out in court as this is damning evidence. Especially if this witness is their friend. We will just have to wait and see.

[StealthEnergiser]

[Rykbanlor]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

Hey, JTJ is back, we've missed you.

I am a believer in the KT heavyweight "conspiracy theory" - while I think I have seen a lot of highly plausible and, not very obscure reasons to believe this, I still admit it's only speculation.

Your adamant belief that the B2 are guilty and that the evidence is overwhelming (how do you know this? Are you privy to info the rest of us aren't) just seems rather unusual, and the fact you consider any of the other possibilities and earlier findings to be obscure and implausible seems a little off-kilter.

We can agree to disagree, I may well be wrong, but I still find it hard to shake off a lot of the details I've seen a long the way as implausible - some seemed downright damning. Your confidence is unwavering however, and you don't seem to be able, like I am, to admit you may be wrong. This seems to be based on your confidence in the ability and integrity of RTP, or some other reason.

As implausability goes, I guess you either haven't been in Thailand long enough to become aware of how things can go and the extent of corruption and patronage, or you've been here too long, and know far too much.

People get whacked all the time in low level politics, and there is a lot of gun crime and 25 cent assasins - life is cheap here, and rich people are powerful.

On a very basic note disregarding KT for a moment, what's your take on the Police here? Do you think they are corrupt and have earned their reputation?

Do you think there are mafia type people at work in the country? Are you aware of the judicial weaknesses in Thailand? Do you know about the many unsolved murders, and corrupt officials etc?

Inquiring minds want to know

Regards,

Tin foil Timmy.

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

[GOLDBUGGY]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

That is how I saw it to John. But now I am not so sure anymore. With all this controversy surround this case I am not so sure a deal may be even offered now.

The way I see it, and only my humble opinion, if a Plea Bargain was made now, the controversy would still exist. With strong evidence, this could play out in court, still get a conviction, and perhaps remove some doubt. Not all! But some! But???

[joebrown]

Bangkok Air has two flight leaving Ko Samui on Monday mornings:

one leaves at 6am and arrives BKK: 7:04. the other is 7:45 arriving at 8:50

How long would it take to get to Nomsod's University apartment from airport?

The crime wrapped up at 5 am. Taking a fast boat to Samui, I assume would take less than an hour.

Even considering the above data, I suspect if he took a flight to Bkk on Monday morning, 15th September, he would have opted to do it via Chumpon. Just a hunch on my part. It's all moot, because it's very doubtful either Bangkok Air or Nok Air is going to release any data which would anger a KT headman who is allegedly mafia-like.

<snip>

... and he would had even had some extra time if he had bought his ticket the day before.

Jdinasia thinks that's funny, and I'm sure Crab is trying to be witty, but upon reflection, that could be true.

Nomsod is a young man at college in Bkk. His family and home village are a few hours away. It's a weekend, he wants to see his family and his buddies. Completely natural for a college student to split for the weekend.

He knew he needed to be back at school by Monday morning. So it's quite plausible that he could have had a pre-paid return ticket for Monday morning. P.S. he's from a rich family, so the price of a plane ticket is pocket change.

Now this may surprise many here but lets's say what you say is true. It does make good logical sense he may have wanted to be home for the weekend, and it was a weekend. Many people have put forth a good argument to say he was their. So for the sake of an argument lets' say he was there on the night in question, which was a Sunday Night on September 14th and Monday morning September 15th. .

That would mean he would have had to have lied about being at his Dorm. That would mean the CCTV Footage of him being their would be false also. Could you pay 2 low paid security guards to change that? I think so. Do they have the knowledge to change the time and date? I doubt it. Or at least the ones I ever met. But I suppose somebody could. I don't really know myself as I never tried.

But again, for the sake of an argument, lets say they did that. But then that grainy CCTV Footage of him on the streets on the Island, which to me could be any young boy or young girl even, could also be tampered with to. But to go with the crowd, that's say it wasn't and it was him on the island late on September 14th and early the 15th. But does that prove he is guilty or rape and murder?

Did he have a reason to leave the island early, other than what people suspect here? Well, he did have an exam to write that Monday Morning in Bangkok, which has been proven, and as many pointed out he had to catch an early flight to do that. So other then running away from something, he may have also been just rushing to get somewhere. If he had a prepaid ticket, then planning this murder would have been impossible ahead of time, so only possible on the night of the murders.

But here is the kicker! He had his DNA Tested in front of a crowd of people, including police, his lawyer, and media. His DNA Tested Negative and did not match with Hannah's DNA. If this was a forgone conclusion, then why go through all this trouble and lie to say he was not on the island. Why not say he was on the island, if he really was, but left early as he had an exam to write, that he did not commit the murders and knew nothing about them, and that his DNA Test proves that.

But then maybe he told his Girlfriend that he was going to stay home that weekend and study, but instead took off to the island and rang up and old Girlfriend. Then wanted to hide that from his new Girlfriend. Who knows? But if he did lie, that makes him a liar, not a rapist and killer. If his DNA was tampered with, you would need proof of that, and since he is not a suspect anymore, the chances of getting that is next to impossible.

It does surprise me though that I have seen so many posts here in how these 2 accused tiny but physically fit men could not take on a big man like David even with a garden hoe. But now, and on the other hand, you have this tiny Nomsad guy, who looks like a young boy, with a gimpy arm to boot and who probably couldn't even hold a garden hoe to attack with, and that Hannah could have probably taken him on by herself and with her purse. But all of a sudden, you now have this small tiny man, with the gimpy arm, becoming Mighty Mouse.

Go Figure?

.

I have read your post and fully understand the points you are making. However, I think you're not considering that the 'macho' Thai male very often isn't so brave when in a 'full-blown' confrontation situation. These people don't usually work single handed, but if they do start alone the 'mob' soon appears, and joins in, particularly when a farang is involved. IMHO the attack on Hannah and David was carried out by a 'team' and did not take place on the beach. They were carried and found there. If you don't think that's possible just consider who owns all the properties near the beach. I think evidence will come to light that Hannah was shot in the face before being so badly mutilated.

[minikev]

There is one question that no one seems to have asked yet.

Is there any proof the Burmese bought L&M cigarettes that night ?

Or are we just taking the word of the RTP again ?

One would imagine a computer till would be able to tell which brand was bought and when.

I think it was a video footage from 7 eleven that shows they buy the cigarettes.

For a man so sure of their guilt you really should KNOW and not just think. Oh and it showed one of them buying cigarettes that's singular.

[Johnniey]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

[minikev]

At first I read that there was DNA evidence inside her body. Now I read that the evidence was in a condom.

Forgive me, but ...was the condom in her body or was that in addition to the DNA in her body? Two samples or one? Either way, I can't see why they would be cautious of leaving DNA and then on the other hand be so reckless about it to either leave it behind in her or allow another to not use one.

How was far the condom from the scene? Did it have Hannah's DNA on it too? Which sample was tested against the headmans son? Both or just one?

My gut feeling is probably the same as most, it was the headmans son and friends and they have cleared him using one of the DNA samples his friend left behind.

Edited to be more clear.

If I remember reports correctly there was no dna evidence in the condom and a spot of Hannah's blood on the outside. With regards to Hannah there were 2 different specimens internally and a third different one externally (as stated by police / forensics in a press conference conducted in Thai last year). That's a total of 3 by the way for starters, not 2.

Yes the report of the 3rd dna on Hannahs breast , now that report is no longer to be found

However the Condom , blood or dna , I have seen a photo of a condom with a speck of blood present , but it is the terminology used that fascinates me

Blood or dna being present has 2 different meanings, now if blood of a person is found then it is usually described as person A blood was found

If dna is present this would signify cells or tissue

It amazes me how many times this point about 3 samples of DNA is immediately construde to be from 3 people. The samples were taken from 3 areas of her body the results showed DNA from 2 people. Clear now?

[Rykbanlor]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

What a spineless little prick. I am sure he was told very directly by the Police what would happen if he came back, but that shouldn't have stopped him going to the UK authorities.

[Johnniey]

See it all beofre - usually powerful people like Chalerms son are let go free as they are Thai but I remember when the Blue Diamond fiasco was happenening that ALL oldtimers said that because The Western world was watching that justice would prevail - it didn't and that was the murder of a few Saudi DIPLOMATS. Oh wait a minute the killer Lieutenant-General Chalor found guilty and sentenced to death in1995 has been free for 6 years.

No disrespect to the families of the dead but what are two island backpackers compared to the killing of 3 Saudi Arabian diplomats.?

NO JUSTICE end of story here.

[Rykbanlor]

See it all beofre - usually powerful people like Chalerms son are let go free as they are Thai but I remember when the Blue Diamond fiasco was happenening that ALL oldtimers said that because The Western world was watching that justice would prevail - it didn't and that was the murder of a few Saudi DIPLOMATS. Oh wait a minute the killer Lieutenant-General Chalor found guilty and sentenced to death in1995 has been free for 6 years.

NO JUSTICE end of story here.

And yet for the small pocket of hardcore resistance the same thing happening in this case is "implausible" and obscure. Some people are either too blinkered to see or are maybe basking in the patronage themselves to some extent.

[thailandchilli]

Good to see that this sham is being highlighted in the British press

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157851/Is-Thai-murder-trial-set-collapse-Families-British-backpackers-fly-home-defence-lawyers-call-suspects-acquitted-claims-missing-evidence-crime-scene-blunders.html

Taken from that article:

‘We hope by the end of the prosecution case, we will have destroyed it and we will show that it is completely lacking in credibility,’ said Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with defence lawyers.

Mr Hall said the defence held ‘incredibly significant information from an independent authority’ with which it would discredit the prosecution case when the trial reopens. He declined to give more details but the information is believed to relate to DNA samples obtained from Hannah’s body after it was returned to the UK.

Now here in lies the smoking gun.........this trial is going to explode when this is revealed

[minikev]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

But they didn't plead guilty, they pleaded not guilty.

The evidence is looking very shaky to me, not the least bit overwhelming.

Ignore reality, axe to grind ? Look in mirror.

Most people do plead not guilty in most case initially. There lawyer just recently stated a guilty plea may still happen depending on evidence presented. My money has always been on the fact they will plead guilty and they are guilty and no mass cover-up and conspiracy is taking place to cover-up the crimes of somebody the police had no problem publicly announcing was a suspect as they did many people early on ... until the DNA matches with these two.

You should keep your money and not place that bet. As so far they have gone in exactly the opposite direction to your predictions. As will the case. IE they did admit the crime but then retracted as they say they were beaten and tortured into confession. It must be annoying when you keep putting on black and it comes up red.

[sartoric]

See it all beofre - usually powerful people like Chalerms son are let go free as they are Thai but I remember when the Blue Diamond fiasco was happenening that ALL oldtimers said that because The Western world was watching that justice would prevail - it didn't and that was the murder of a few Saudi DIPLOMATS. Oh wait a minute the killer Lieutenant-General Chalor found guilty and sentenced to death in1995 has been free for 6 years.

NO JUSTICE end of story here.

And yet for the small pocket of hardcore resistance the same thing happening in this case is "implausible" and obscure. Some people are either too blinkered to see or are maybe basking in the patronage themselves to some extent.

Agree, the only reason I can see intelligent people taking the official RTP stance is receiving some kind of benefit. Then, there's the idiots with no idea.

[Mooner]

From GB posts you can tell he hasn't been following the case.

The height issue was discussed when the cctv of running man was discussed and it was compared to the universal door height around 2m to 2m 10.

That is just one thing he us unaware of.

[6NS]

They are sending so called evidence for retesting so it can get lost for real this time, due to the British also now came forward with evidence which will most probably be a complete different result to what the Thais have ??

They are stuck in a corner and they know it... Best way out...get rid of their scapegoat evidence and the case gets thrown out of court....problem solved and face is saved. The saving of face to be the most important here.

Just a thought...

This will be how it goes.

It's their only move now.

[Si Thea01]

Not sure if these young boys are guilty or not but admittedly believe they are scapegoats. In any caes at this pont I wouldn't trust the DNA without first carefully investigating the chain of custody. The old switcharoo is a distinct possibility when considering the players in this debacle.

I am still trying to work out what your on about, not sure if they are guilty or not but you believe they're scapegoats. So, it's your opinion that these are two who, no matter which way the dice falls, have been framed to take the fall? If they were scapegoats, wouldn't that make them innocent or are you saying that even if guilty, they could still be scapegoats and just being used to protect others Why cant it just be plain and simple, either guilty or not guilty?

I thought the court ordered the re-testing of the evidence, if so, then it has to follow the chain of evidence as well, which is to prove that it had not been subjected to any outside interference or contamination, then the actual testing to determine that the DNA is from whom it is alleged, and that it was obtained, legally. But now you have brought back the old tampering with evidence scenario suggesting that they may be found guilty, no matter what. I think the court is being fair and impartial and is showing this by allowing a defence request to take place. But others will say this is just for show, won't they?

We all know don't we that there was a lot left to be desired within the initial stages of the investigation but neither you or I have any first hand knowledge of what was initially undertaken or has been carried out since; the amount of evidence collected or any other matter pertaining to the case, other than what has been proffered in media reports, or by the defence in their attempts to discredit, police, prosecution and judiciary and garner public support for the two alleged offenders. This has gathered support from certain people, as well as the press and other bodies, all of whom appear to be singing from the same hymn book.

What has been brought to the fore by the defence is expected, and is what is required of them, otherwise they would not be acting in the interests of the alleged offenders, however, the others putting in their tuppence worth are doing just that, they have no idea, as none of us do. So please, let's not raise the old conspiracy theory again, and spout about something that neither I, you or any of the TV detectives, defence experts or acting judges, have any knowledge of

We can all relate to something said by one side or another but we have no evidence and are only spouting hearsay, assumptions and on occasions, malicious innuendoes, so stick with what we know, which is very little and let justice take it's course. If, as you allege, there is a distinct possibility of tampering, how many people would you say were involved and what would their positions be? In addition, as you seem to be relying on your profound knowledge of this matter, please tell us who you consider to the players are, as you describe, " In this debacle?"

Of course there will be many on here who will espouse your assumptions without concrete evidence and tell us that there is no natural justice in Thailand. Once the matter is concluded, and a judgement is delivered, it will make for some very interesting reading, so shouldn't we wait until then instead of guessing. I don't know how many will end up with egg on their faces but I cannot wait to see who they are. Won't be me because I have never assumed or otherwise, their guilt or innocence because I have and never have had access to the evidence. Just 57 pages of for an against here on TVF. I wonder how many have read every response. I have and many are really off this planet, whilst many have a sound understanding and are holding back in their judgement.

Now, I could be wrong, I am sure the usual suspects will let me know that I am.

[GOLDBUGGY]

JoeBrown

I to understand the points you are making. I enjoy a fair and open discussion rather than name calling, so I appreciate what you said. Every story has 2 sides like a coin. If one chooses to be blinded by only 1 side, he is not seeking the truth. He is seeking revenge. Like in a Lynch Mob Mentality.But his right to his own opinion is in fact his right.

Yes, this is possible that Hannah and thus David, was killed someplace else. But then it is difficult to explain the spattered blood on the rocks and soil, and David's Death by drowning, which I am sure they can prove it is sea water (salty). I would also think that it would be somewhat risky carrying 2 dead bodies to the beach, at any time. Especially if there was only 2 people involved as they would have to do that twice. If it is 4 people, then I would not want to be the small Thai carrying David. But anything is possible.

I have lived here quite a long time and to be honest I have never had a controversy with any Thai or the Police. Other than my wife....which doesn't count. But I have of course heard of this Thai Ganging up before. But from what I could tell, it was caused most times by the Farang creating some trouble, or argument, or refusing to pay his check bin. I knew many Farang people, who were nothing but trouble when they drink. I suppose you do to.

The 2 accused are Burmese, which I a not sure if they believe in ganging up or not. There is no proof or evidence shown at this time, to suggest it was somebody else. So presently it is only speculation, which gets you no were in a court of law.

[Rhys]

Sadly we shall never know... give the families some peace...

[stephenterry]

As stated very early on, I am confident these two will plead guilty. There will be no verdict from the court. Despite those that have an agenda to ignore reality for their own axes to grind to ignore facts and reality and focus on obscure implausible scenarios, the evidence is overwhelming these two did it. This is just a show for defense to see if there is any way to punch holes in the case and garner public support from the public before striking a deal that will hopefully spare the defendants life in the long run and have them one day see freedom again.

That is how I saw it to John. But now I am not so sure anymore. With all this controversy surround this case I am not so sure a deal may be even offered now.

The way I see it, and only my humble opinion, if a Plea Bargain was made now, the controversy would still exist. With strong evidence, this could play out in court, still get a conviction, and perhaps remove some doubt. Not all! But some! But???

The evidence is NOT overwhelming because its veracity has not been substantiated and, as yet, not accepted by the court. Your opinion, JTJ, is based solely on the prosecution's assertions, and without any knowledge or understanding of the defence's rebuttal of such 'evidence' except, if you had been reading, that the UK autopsy report differs to the RTP version, and at least one UK forensic expert, will be giving such evidence in due course.

Even so, the best I'm hoping for is a mistrial, where the B2 would be set free to return to Myanmar. not the families would get closure, but at least two more innocents (and they are at this very moment innocent) would not be sacrificed by Thai officialdom.

[BoristheBlade]

Sadly we shall never know... give the families some peace...

If one of my family had suffered what David and Hannah have endured, I would at the very least want justice to be served.

I would want the murderers and conspirators jailed for a long time following a professional investigation by the Thai law enforcement agencies.

This simply has not happened.

The family must know this and MUST act.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Well, time to go.

I have seen and heard enough speculation and I don't want to speculate on anything. I am sure that justice well be served in a court of law.

[Rykbanlor]

Well, time to go.

I have seen and heard enough speculation and I don't want to speculate on anything. I am sure that justice well be served in a court of law.

I agree we have had a lot of speculation.

I still remain to be convinced that justice will be served in a Thai court of law though.

[Oziex1]

out to you General Payuth Chan (O) Cha - you really need to take a very big interest in this case as the damage to Thailand will be far reaching - something is very wrong with this case and if you want international credit pr even National credit then you need to get involved and start getting were it's at.....the truth, and hold those people who tried to distort justice accountable, show everyone that Thailand is turning a corner and will no longer tolerate these Mafia heads who ruin tourism with their greed and lies and MURDER

Prayut is serving his masters well and some of them are likely to be connected to the criminal hierarchy of this island as indicated by the change of investigators at the beginning of this case. Then I suggest that in the view of the PM everything is AOK. He is also the chief distorter of justice.

We often use incidents such as these awful crimes as the basis for the demise of tourism in Thailand, Thai tourism may have taken a hit recently but more likely due to economic events in the world.

People after a relaxing and value for money break probably don't exercise a social conscience, if we were to do so would we ever visit a developing nation.

Have a look at You Tube some time the kids are crazy about Thailand video after video of kids having fun in the sun. Why wouldn't they be at their age did I listen to old farts talking politics and screaming for justice, of course not there was too much fun to be had.

OK I'm rambling a bit, I believe the prosecutions case will fail and the B2 will go home and that will be the end of it.