Greece seeks 3-year aid program, rushes to detail reforms

[webfact]

Greece seeks 3-year aid program, rushes to detail reforms
ELENA BECATOROS, Associated Press
JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — With a deadline just hours away to come up with a detailed economic reform plan, Greece requested a new three-year rescue from its European partners Wednesday as signs grew its economy was sliding toward free-fall without an urgently needed bailout.

As its banking system teetered near the edge, the government extended bank closures into next week, while international creditors were in open disagreement over whether to award the country debt relief — with Germany at odds with the International Monetary Fund.

Without a deal, Greece faces an almost inevitable collapse of the banking system, which would be the first step for the country to fall out of the euro.

As Thursday's deadline loomed, the government sought to reassure its European creditors that it would enact tax and pension reforms quickly in exchange for loans from Europe's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism.

In a formal request that was filled with vague promises but short on details, the Greek government pledged to "immediately implement a set of measures as early as the beginning of next week" — but did not specify what these were.

After months of fruitless negotiations with the Greek government, the skeptical eurozone creditor states have said they want to see a detailed, cost-accounted plan of the reforms by Thursday. That is meant to give enough time to review the plan before all 28 leaders of the full European Union meet on Sunday in what has been termed as Greece's last chance to stay in the euro.

But Greece's major creditors were hardly in lock-step over what path to take in dealing with the struggling but defiant EU member nation.

IMF chief Christine Lagarde reiterated Wednesday that Greece's massive debt would need restructuring, something that Germany — Greece's largest European lender — has resisted.

Speaking in Washington, Lagarde said Greece needed to continue cost-cutting reforms, but added: "The other leg is debt restructuring, which we believe is needed ... for debt sustainability."

"It well may be that the numbers may have to be revisited, but our analysis has not changed," she said of the need for granting Greece better repayment terms.

U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake."

"I don't think any prime minister of Greece could sell all the additional fiscal measures, plus the structural reforms that are needed without some sense of what the debt sustainability looks like," he said in Washington.

Earlier Wednesday, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said his country was seeking a deal that would bring a definitive end to his country's financial crisis. Greece has had two bailouts from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund since May 2010, totaling 240 billion euros ($260 billion).

"We need to ensure the medium-term funding of our country with a development and growth program," Tsipras told lawmakers at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France.

Applause rose from left-wing lawmakers in the turbulent chamber when Tsipras said aid to Greece has only helped banks, not ordinary Greeks, as some held up "No" signs to back Greek voters' rejection of more austerity.

Tsipras insisted he has "no hidden agenda" to drive Greece out of the euro and that last Sunday's referendum in which Greeks roundly rejected more belt-tightening reforms does not mean a break with Europe.

The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans.

Tsipras said Greece's troubles predated his arrival in office in January and condemned the "austerity experiment" his country has endured over the past five years that he blames for spiraling unemployment and poverty.

"We demand an agreement with our neighbors, but one that gives us a sign that we are on a long-lasting basis exiting from the crisis — which will demonstrate to us that there is light at the end of the tunnel," he said.

Tsipras vowed to continue reforms, but warned of the austerity-weariness of the Greek public. "This has exhausted the patience and resilience of the Greek people," he said.

In Greece, meanwhile, people already struggling with eight days of shuttered banks and limits on money withdrawals learned the finance ministry was extending the closures until next Monday. Greeks cannot take out more than 60 euros ($67) a day from ATMs and are unable to send money abroad, including to pay bills or to stock their businesses, without special permission.

The head of France's central bank said he feared the "collapse" of the Greek economy and "chaos" if Greece doesn't strike a deal by Sunday.

In unusually strong language, Christian Noyer told Europe-1 radio he predicted "riots" in Greece if no deal is reached. He also indicated the European Central Bank would effectively pull the plug on its emergency liquidity measures for Greek banks if no deal is struck.

Highlighting the rising anger with Tsipras, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker had a stark warning for Greece after Tuesday's eurozone summit.

"We have a Grexit scenario, prepared in detail," he said, apparently referring to the situation in which Greece would be forced out of the currency union.
___

Keaten reported from Paris. Associated Press writers Michael Corder, Raf Casert, Menelaos Hadjicostis and Derek Gatopoulos in Brussels, and Angela Charlton in Paris contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-09

[NeverSure]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

[robblok]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

I agree with you that they are desperate to keep Greece in. They should not and just drop the hammer. I don't agree that it would be the end of the eurozone. It would send a signal to countries to behave.

As for the US to bail anyone the US is Chinese owned soon they will rival the Greek dept. its over 104% most European countries are far lower debt wise Germany at 78% Netherlands at 73,5%

Edited July 9, 2015 by robblok

[Naam]

and i am betting that some U.S. political cold warriors are scared shitless that the Russian fleet is perhaps allowed to use the port of a NATO member country as a base (Piraeus).

[sammygood]

give us some more billions, but this is just a gift, as we will never pay it back ...

live above your means and someone else will fit the bill

[SoilSpoil]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

Let me guess, the Feds are gonna print another trizillion dollars and use that to bail European banks out. The 'world champions' of everything that is wrong in modern banking and monetary policies, quantitative easing, are coming to the rescue. That's irony. Maybe Jack Lew should have a look at his own 'inflated' economy that is driven on money creation and debt. Do you know the ratio debt GDP of the US?

Its not easy to drop Greece when you take the social and economical consequences in account. Europe and Greece are partners and want the best for each other. Greece will be forced to print a new currency and that currency will drop in value immediately. Currencies are driven on trust and that's exactly what Greece has lost. They failed to pay off the IMF and will also fail to pay the ECB on July 20th without a huge handout. Who would want to export products to Greece and get paid in their new currency or IOU's? I wouldn't. With a currency losing its value faster than Icarus can fly to the sun, imports and oil will become too expensive for Greece. Greece imports more than it exports, so good luck.

Needless to say that the Greek people are facing a decade of poverty and, I fear, internal unrest or civil strife/war. 61% of the Greeks are blinded by their populist PM and do not oversee the consequences. Which Euro MP would like to push the country in the abyss? Its gonna have to be Merkel and she is very reluctant.

[Scott]

A post and reply have been removed.

[Anthony5]

Greece gets another deadline, this time its Sunday and it appears to be firm.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-07-08/greece-s-last-stand-europe-gives-athens-final-deadline?cmpid=yhoo

[Ace of Pop]

Fear Not . The Euro in future will be printed on Grease Proof Paper,, .

[samuibeachcomber]

The nordic north and latino south do not make good bed fellows.The southern euro countries should have a euro 2 currency half the value of the original euro.

austerity,low to no interest rates,QE..........its a plan to create serfdom,and when the shit does hit the fan inflation will roll in to devastate everyone's money and make it worthless just like in zimbabwe.Welcome to the new world order controlled by big business with their political lackey's.

The only way to ride out all of this will be land ownership where you can survive on what you grow,chickens,ducks goats maybe pigs,grow your own vegetables.Stock pile essentials,sugar,cooking oil,rice etc.

You think i am being alarmist,fanciful? Just watch its happening before our eyes.

[SoilSpoil]

Greece gets another deadline, this time its Sunday and it appears to be firm.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-07-08/greece-s-last-stand-europe-gives-athens-final-deadline?cmpid=yhoo

Given the fact that the Greek banks are closed for 2 weeks already and social unrest is imminent, I think that this deadline is the real one.

Bankruptcy will take place on July 20th when they will fail to pay the ECB. IF there's no deal Sunday there won't be time enough to get the proposals through the parliaments. Tsipras will have to accept a deal that is more austere or strict than the one the Greeks voted OXI against last Sunday. Check mate for Tsipras and the Greeks, Sad thing is that most Europeans, including moi, think the Greeks deserve whats facing them. The anti Europe rhetoric and insults have not stayed unnoticed.

[TheAppletons]

Fear Not . The Euro in future will be printed on Grease Proof Paper,, .

Good one.

[ABCer]

I wonder if any of the TV members here remember Cino-Soviet conflicts around 1970s?

Some "238th Final Stern and Serious Warning" comes to mind.

Look, economically Greece was, is and always will be a liability. To any sponsor.

I like Greece. And I like Greeks. They are smart. They do not care to be 'right' - they want to be 'happy'.

EU and NATO politics need it to stay and tries to make economic crutches look attractive. That is all to it.

Edited July 9, 2015 by ABCer

[BuaBS]

Fear Not . The Euro in future will be printed on Grease Proof Paper,, .

Should be absorbent paper , so it has a use. ( no bum guns in europe ).

[NeverSure]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

Let me guess, the Feds are gonna print another trizillion dollars and use that to bail European banks out. The 'world champions' of everything that is wrong in modern banking and monetary policies, quantitative easing, are coming to the rescue. That's irony. Maybe Jack Lew should have a look at his own 'inflated' economy that is driven on money creation and debt. Do you know the ratio debt GDP of the US?

Its not easy to drop Greece when you take the social and economical consequences in account. Europe and Greece are partners and want the best for each other. Greece will be forced to print a new currency and that currency will drop in value immediately. Currencies are driven on trust and that's exactly what Greece has lost. They failed to pay off the IMF and will also fail to pay the ECB on July 20th without a huge handout. Who would want to export products to Greece and get paid in their new currency or IOU's? I wouldn't. With a currency losing its value faster than Icarus can fly to the sun, imports and oil will become too expensive for Greece. Greece imports more than it exports, so good luck.

Needless to say that the Greek people are facing a decade of poverty and, I fear, internal unrest or civil strife/war. 61% of the Greeks are blinded by their populist PM and do not oversee the consequences. Which Euro MP would like to push the country in the abyss? Its gonna have to be Merkel and she is very reluctant.

"Let me guess, the Feds are gonna print another trizillion dollars and use that to bail European banks out. The 'world champions' of everything that is wrong in modern banking and monetary policies, quantitative easing, are coming to the rescue."That's irony. Maybe Jack Lew should have a look at his own 'inflated' economy that is driven on money creation and debt.

The Fed doesn't and never has "printed money". That's not its domain. There is no more M2 USD money in the world than there was ten years ago except to adjust for inflation. QE or Quantitative Easing has to do with allowing banks to lend a higher percentage of depositors money, and at a lower percentage rate to encourage borrowing and to put more of the available money into the economy. The Fed can reverse policies, raise interest rates, and pull that money back out of the economy by changing bank lending restrictions. QE increases the money supply available to the general public from banks, but not the actual amount of money in existence.

"Do you know the ratio debt GDP of the US?"

About the same as the UK's but some say the UK's is higher. The UK doesn't have the assets the US government has nor does the UK have the economic engine that the US has. The US is in good shape.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

and i am betting that some U.S. political cold warriors are scared shitless that the Russian fleet is perhaps allowed to use the port of a NATO member country as a base (Piraeus).

The US is afraid it's going to have to backstop the Eurozone with another massive bailout as it did just 3 1/2 years ago, December 2011 when the Fed loaned them $USD 2 trillion to get them out of liquidity mess. Russia is worse than broke and isn't a threat to anyone.

"America's central bank, the Federal Reserve, is engaged in a bailout of European banks. Surprisingly, its operation is largely unnoticed here."

The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe - Wall Street Journal December 28, 2011

Cheers

Edited July 9, 2015 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

Let's go to school folks and blow away some myths about China, Russia, the Fed and the Eurozone. Keep the tinfoil hat rumors coming please.

[h90]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

Well it is the USA that forces the EU politicians to keep Greece in. As Greece get very friendly with Russia and friendly with China. But true the European politicians are a shame and it start that in many countries very right wing or very left wing get elected to get rid of the current $%#&....

I think Germany needs to get as poor as Greece first to wake up....but usually it isn't good when Germany wakes up.....

[PepperMe]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

I agree with you that they are desperate to keep Greece in. They should not and just drop the hammer. I don't agree that it would be the end of the eurozone. It would send a signal to countries to behave.

As for the US to bail anyone the US is Chinese owned soon they will rival the Greek dept. its over 104% most European countries are far lower debt wise Germany at 78% Netherlands at 73,5%

I agree.

The best the EU can get out of this now is that Greece implodes and it is held up as a warning to the other member states not to defy the allmighty power of the EU.

But that is not going to happen. For one, people all over the union will put the blame on the European Commission and the ECB. Their tactics have been so badly hidden that even with all the help from the pro-EU mainstream media, all of this charade has been seen straight through.

There are also plenty of Euroskeptic politicians ready to tell it how it is.

The problem the EU has is many fold and has to be incredibly lucky to avoid a disaster now. Anti-EU feeling will grow as the other bailout nations watch this unfold and wonder when it is going to happen to them. This is why the right wing parties are growing in these countries and they are growing very fast.

Secondly. With Greece out, as already pointed out, Russia are waiting in the wings and possibly China to see them through a transissioning period while it reintroduces the Drachma. If in a year or two, things are getting worse in the Meditaranian nations and Greece starts to recover and their economical growth overtakes their still-shackled neighbours, then they are going to become restless.

Basically, the EU will be lucky no big damage is done to their beloved project as a result of a Grexit and another country (or even the hint of one) starting to go down a similar route, the euro will tank and so with the EU.

When you see Juncker looking the way he did last night thumping the podium and shaking as he spoke and how timid Merkel looks the past few days... Tells me, they are like cats on a hot tim roof.

Sooner the better.

Edited July 9, 2015 by PepperMe

[h90]

Greece gets another deadline, this time its Sunday and it appears to be firm.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-07-08/greece-s-last-stand-europe-gives-athens-final-deadline?cmpid=yhoo

Given the fact that the Greek banks are closed for 2 weeks already and social unrest is imminent, I think that this deadline is the real one.

Bankruptcy will take place on July 20th when they will fail to pay the ECB. IF there's no deal Sunday there won't be time enough to get the proposals through the parliaments. Tsipras will have to accept a deal that is more austere or strict than the one the Greeks voted OXI against last Sunday. Check mate for Tsipras and the Greeks, Sad thing is that most Europeans, including moi, think the Greeks deserve whats facing them. The anti Europe rhetoric and insults have not stayed unnoticed.

Not necessary.

He just don't pay the money

Nationalize the banks

Print New Drachma or he could even print Euro

and/or he lift the sanctions against Russia

Russia and China help Greece with a few billions for humanitarian reasons (They don't need that much money if they declare the old debts illegal).

Turkey is also ready to help

OF course that would cause a reaction from the EU, no idea what these incompetent politicians would do. USA sent already their regime change specialists in the region

[tigermoth]

With all this greece talk which is starting to look like a stuck record, myself, being totally dumb about all this high finance raving, don't understand any of it. If I want a loan from a bank I have to put up some form of security to safeguard the lender and if I can't pay the the loan bank I lose my security. i.e. my house. It therefore seems to my little bit of grey matter that-

1. What security did the lenders get. If none then why did they lend the money in the first place?

2. If Greece did have some form of security why did the not pay back the loan, say on a monthly basis, whatever?

My conclusion is that the lenders were just greedy and and didn't investigate Greece's economy sufficiently and should never have loaned the money and that Greece simply lived beyond their means.

Surely the blame is equally on both.

[NeverSure]

As for the US to bail anyone the US is Chinese owned soon they will rival the Greek dept. its over 104% most European countries are far lower debt wise Germany at 78% Netherlands at 73,5%

The US doesn't owe the Chinese any money. Where do all of these rumors come from??

China is broke, crashing, desperate, and if the US owed it money would be begging for it back because it can't handle its own mess.

China holds USD in the form of US Treasuries to back its international trades just as most other countries including Thailand do. No one will accept China's money for anything so it must have real money, USD. The US is strong, has the international unit of trade in the USD, and had enough liquidity in 2011 to bail Europe out with a sudden $2 trillion dollar loan.

There will be a prize for the most outrageous tinfoil hat comment made in this thread - one $USD.

Cheers

[h90]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

I agree with you that they are desperate to keep Greece in. They should not and just drop the hammer. I don't agree that it would be the end of the eurozone. It would send a signal to countries to behave.

As for the US to bail anyone the US is Chinese owned soon they will rival the Greek dept. its over 104% most European countries are far lower debt wise Germany at 78% Netherlands at 73,5%

I agree.

The best the EU can get out of this now is that Greece implodes and it is held up as a warning to the other member states not to defy the allmighty power of the EU.

But that is not going to happen. For one, people all over the union will put the blame on the European Commission and the ECB. Their tactics have been so badly hidden that even with all the help from the pro-EU mainstream media, all of this charade has been seen straight through.

There are also plenty of Euroskeptic politicians ready to tell it how it is.

The problem the EU has is many fold and has to be incredibly lucky to avoid a disaster now. Anti-EU feeling will grow as the other bailout nations watch this unfold and wonder when it is going to happen to them. This is why the right wing parties are growing in these countries and they are growing very fast.

Secondly. With Greece out, as already pointed out, Russia are waiting in the wings and possibly China to see them through a transissioning period while it reintroduces the Drachma. If in a year or two, things are getting worse in the Meditaranian nations and Greece starts to recover and their economical growth overtakes their still-shackled neighbours, then they are going to become restless.

Basically, the EU will be lucky no big damage is done to their beloved project as a result of a Grexit and another country (or even the hint of one) starting to go down a similar route, the euro will tank and so with the EU.

When you see Juncker looking the way he did last night thumping the podium and shaking as he spoke and how timid Merkel looks the past few days... Tells me, they are like cats on a hot tim roof.

Sooner the better.

I saw some pictures from Merkel where her face looked similar to Hitlers in his last day in the bunker. Like a complete exhausted broken person who is about to loose everything. I don't why she looks that bad or if the journalists just used the worst photo they could find and drained the colors from her face a bit on photoshop. So maybe she doesn't look as half dead as they show her....

[stevenl]

They're going to need a lot more soon, there will be no income from tourists this season.

And yes, of course debt restructuring is necessary, but from inside or outside the Euro, the other Europeans are going to (or actually have already) paid for that.

But let them sort out their own problems. What is happening now is not different from humanitarian aid to 3rd world countries 2 and more decades ago: as long as you just keep pumping the money in the countries themselves don't change anything. Internal reforms have to be set in, and those can IMO be financially aided by the EU, US and whoever else wants to, including Russia.

Edited July 9, 2015 by stevenl

[PepperMe]

With all this greece talk which is starting to look like a stuck record, myself, being totally dumb about all this high finance raving, don't understand any of it. If I want a loan from a bank I have to put up some form of security to safeguard the lender and if I can't pay the the loan bank I lose my security. i.e. my house. It therefore seems to my little bit of grey matter that-

1. What security did the lenders get. If none then why did they lend the money in the first place?

2. If Greece did have some form of security why did the not pay back the loan, say on a monthly basis, whatever?

My conclusion is that the lenders were just greedy and and didn't investigate Greece's economy sufficiently and should never have loaned the money and that Greece simply lived beyond their means.

Surely the blame is equally on both.

It was all a scam from the start by the Troika.

The Greek government basically ended up with less than 10% of the bailout money once the ECB and German, French and Italian banksters worked their magic.

They didn't ask for security because at that level what can a goverment give?..... They can not put up sovereign assets because they belong to the people.. They created bonds.

They also paid sweetners to the Troika and everyone involved. Arms deals agreed etc etc.... All that money was siphoned away from Greece and then left them lumped with the debts.

Everything you read in the media is all smoke and mirrors. I suggest you read up on the subject from outside independant economists for the truth.

The EU have behaved the exact same way you expect an organisation that does not even do audits on its finances to act.

Ask yourself this.... How can an Italian National bank add 24 Bn to Greeces bailout pot when Italy was itself already bailed out?? Smell fishy does it??

Edited July 9, 2015 by PepperMe

[Neurath]

Enough blame to go around for the EU and for Greece. The point now is how to get out of the mess. Are the proposals of the EU a way forward for both Greece and the EU, a recipe for disaster or a kicking the can down the road?

[Ace of Pop]

Why don't they. Call Stavros,at the Kebab Shop. Who was the clown who loaned money to a nation of Civil Servants. They should be Named n Shamed

[OJAS]

give us some more billions, but this is just a gift, as we will never pay it back ...

live above your means and someone else will fit the bill

Yep, we demand these extra billions to enable us to:-

(1) reduce our state pension eligibility age to 16;

(2) pay each state pensioner a starting weekly pension of 500 euros to be increased every month in accordance with the prevailing inflation rate + 10%; and

(3) provide each state pensioner with a free daily 1-litre ouzo allowance for life.

Edited July 9, 2015 by OJAS

[h90]

give us some more billions, but this is just a gift, as we will never pay it back ...

live above your means and someone else will fit the bill

Yep, we demand these extra billions to enable us to:-

(1) reduce our state pension eligibility age to 16;

(2) pay each state pensioner a starting weekly pension of 500 euros to be increased every month in accordance with the prevailing inflation rate + 10%; and

(3) provide each state pensioner with a free daily 1-litre ouzo allowance for life.

Where I can vote for you?

[SheungWan]

Greece gets another deadline, this time its Sunday and it appears to be firm.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-07-08/greece-s-last-stand-europe-gives-athens-final-deadline?cmpid=yhoo

Given the fact that the Greek banks are closed for 2 weeks already and social unrest is imminent, I think that this deadline is the real one.

Bankruptcy will take place on July 20th when they will fail to pay the ECB. IF there's no deal Sunday there won't be time enough to get the proposals through the parliaments. Tsipras will have to accept a deal that is more austere or strict than the one the Greeks voted OXI against last Sunday. Check mate for Tsipras and the Greeks, Sad thing is that most Europeans, including moi, think the Greeks deserve whats facing them. The anti Europe rhetoric and insults have not stayed unnoticed.

Not necessary.

He just don't pay the money

Nationalize the banks

Print New Drachma or he could even print Euro

and/or he lift the sanctions against Russia

Russia and China help Greece with a few billions for humanitarian reasons (They don't need that much money if they declare the old debts illegal).

Turkey is also ready to help

OF course that would cause a reaction from the EU, no idea what these incompetent politicians would do. USA sent already their regime change specialists in the region

'Turkey is also ready to help'. Love it.