Thailand is Fatca pending...

[Heng]

Since the local banks here are still under the Fatca pending label, wanted to start a thread where folks could share and list non-Fatca compliant banks. There are a couple of lists that can be Googled, but I think personal experiences are important too.

Places you trust, positive experiences....

:-)

[craigt3365]

We need to be careful here. FACTA or not, it is a requirement for US citizens with substantial penalties for non compliance. Financially, for many of us, the tax implications of compliance are very minor. Not worth the risk, imho.

Forum rules do not allow discussion of illegal activities. With all due respect.

[blackcab]

Or to put it another way, what about banks that are fatca compliant?

I suspect SCB is because I had to fill out a fatca form when I was added as a signatory to the company accounts.

I explained I wasn't American (they had my passport on the desk) and the staff explained all foreigners have to complete the form.

And this was for company accounts where every shareholder and director of the business is Thai, and the bank absolutely knows this (It's a real company that trades rather than an illusory company set up for work permit reasons, etc).

It's not my money, I'm not American and I still had to complete the fatca form.

[DogNo1]

Whether or not the bank reports to the US government, US citizens must file an annual FBAR and comply with FATCA on their income tax returns. Dodging that puts US citizens in financial jeapordy. The penalties for non-compliance are severe. Do you feel lucky?

[craigt3365]

I'm pretty sure factta has been adopted by the UK also. Maybe the EU soon also?

[turk56]

The UK and other countries are watching closely. Eventually, other countries will follow suit,.

[PattayaClub]

I have a friend that is a customer of BKK Bank. Every time he goes in, the asks him for another form. They have even required his Thai wife, who has never been to the US, to come in and sign FATCA papers. He bitches about it constantly, wondering how many times they will ask for the same information, the same form, over and over..

I am a customer of TMB Bank. That's redundant, of course, as it stands for Thai Military Bank Bank. In any event, I have never been asked for anything. No forms, no Social Security number, nothing. I recently clicked on their "international branches" to see where they were. Vientiane and The Cayman Islands. Hmmmm.

Banks like BKK Bank are requiring a lot of non-Americans to fill out these forms simply because they see a white face and don't want to take a chance. If they send the IRS a FATCA form on a New Zealander, no harm, but if they miss one American, they get grief. The whole thing is outrageous. All the banks of the world should unite against the US. I have heard that many Thai banks are now refusing accounts to Americans. Don't know if it is true or not.

Edited July 12, 2015 by PattayaClub

[Naam]

I'm pretty sure factta has been adopted by the UK also. Maybe the EU soon also?

the EU and many other countries stick to their own FATCA version, namely the OECD agreement concerning financial data exchange to be fully implemented effective jan 1, 2018.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-of-tax-information/

[lostoday]

I have a friend that is a customer of BKK Bank. Every time he goes in, the asks him for another form. They have even required his Thai wife, who has never been to the US, to come in and sign FATCA papers. He bitches about it constantly, wondering how many times they will ask for the same information, the same form, over and over..

I am a customer of TMB Bank. That's redundant, of course, as it stands for Thai Military Bank Bank. In any event, I have never been asked for anything. No forms, no Social Security number, nothing. I recently clicked on their "international branches" to see where they were. Vientiane and The Cayman Islands. Hmmmm.

Banks like BKK Bank are requiring a lot of non-Americans to fill out these forms simply because they see a white face and don't want to take a chance. If they send the IRS a FATCA form on a New Zealander, no harm, but if they miss one American, they get grief. The whole thing is outrageous. All the banks of the world should unite against the US. I have heard that many Thai banks are now refusing accounts to Americans. Don't know if it is true or not.

Not true. I heard they were now refusing accounts to Brits because America was once a British colony. Don't know if it true or not.

Edited July 13, 2015 by lostoday

[Naam]

Not true. I heard they were now refusing accounts to Brits because America was once a British colony. Don't know if it true or not.

you must have heard that from a chap in a bar who just finished his 11th Chang

[Pib]

Or to put it another way, what about banks that are fatca compliant?

I suspect SCB is because I had to fill out a fatca form when I was added as a signatory to the company accounts.

I explained I wasn't American (they had my passport on the desk) and the staff explained all foreigners have to complete the form.

And this was for company accounts where every shareholder and director of the business is Thai, and the bank absolutely knows this (It's a real company that trades rather than an illusory company set up for work permit reasons, etc).

It's not my money, I'm not American and I still had to complete the fatca form.

Yes...you completed the form...checked the block saying you were not a U.S. person...signed it...and that's as far as it will go other than the bank keeping that doc as documented proof they have accomplished their due diligence to comply with FATCA.

[Pib]

Not true. I heard they were now refusing accounts to Brits because America was once a British colony. Don't know if it true or not.

you must have heard that from a chap in a bar who just finished his 11th Chang

Correct...hallucinations, wild ass stories, etc., can start as early as the 4th Chang. Edited July 13, 2015 by Pib

[Naam]

Or to put it another way, what about banks that are fatca compliant?

I suspect SCB is because I had to fill out a fatca form when I was added as a signatory to the company accounts.

I explained I wasn't American (they had my passport on the desk) and the staff explained all foreigners have to complete the form.

And this was for company accounts where every shareholder and director of the business is Thai, and the bank absolutely knows this (It's a real company that trades rather than an illusory company set up for work permit reasons, etc).

It's not my money, I'm not American and I still had to complete the fatca form.

Yes...you completed the form...checked the block saying you were not a U.S. person...signed it...and that's as far as it will go other than the bank keeping that doc as documented proof they have accomplished their due diligence to comply with FATCA.

expect any bank anywhere on this planet to ask their clients to fill and sign the FATCA form and that no matter what citizen or extraterrestrial alien. period!

[PattayaClub]

Or to put it another way, what about banks that are fatca compliant?

I suspect SCB is because I had to fill out a fatca form when I was added as a signatory to the company accounts.

I explained I wasn't American (they had my passport on the desk) and the staff explained all foreigners have to complete the form.

And this was for company accounts where every shareholder and director of the business is Thai, and the bank absolutely knows this (It's a real company that trades rather than an illusory company set up for work permit reasons, etc).

It's not my money, I'm not American and I still had to complete the fatca form.

Yes...you completed the form...checked the block saying you were not a U.S. person...signed it...and that's as far as it will go other than the bank keeping that doc as documented proof they have accomplished their due diligence to comply with FATCA.

Yeah, but it is a request made only of palefaces.

[lostoday]

Not true. I heard they were now refusing accounts to Brits because America was once a British colony. Don't know if it true or not.

you must have heard that from a chap in a bar who just finished his 11th Chang

Right O. He was next to the guy who had 12 Changs and said Yanks could not open bank accounts.

[JMWPACIFIC]

Bangkok Bank has been very diligent from the gitgo in getting the forms from people. My wife opened an account in July 2014 using only her Thai ID (with no mention of her U. S. Citizenship) and she was required to sign the forms. Not sure whether it was required because of her farang last name or because it's easier for them to just get the form from everyone to cover butts.

The banks her are obsessed with paperwork anyway so what's the big deal for signing one more.

I have a friend that is a customer of BKK Bank. Every time he goes in, the asks him for another form. They have even required his Thai wife, who has never been to the US, to come in and sign FATCA papers. He bitches about it constantly, wondering how many times they will ask for the same information, the same form, over and over..

I am a customer of TMB Bank. That's redundant, of course, as it stands for Thai Military Bank Bank. In any event, I have never been asked for anything. No forms, no Social Security number, nothing. I recently clicked on their "international branches" to see where they were. Vientiane and The Cayman Islands. Hmmmm.

Banks like BKK Bank are requiring a lot of non-Americans to fill out these forms simply because they see a white face and don't want to take a chance. If they send the IRS a FATCA form on a New Zealander, no harm, but if they miss one American, they get grief. The whole thing is outrageous. All the banks of the world should unite against the US. I have heard that many Thai banks are now refusing accounts to Americans. Don't know if it is true or not.

[Heng]

We need to be careful here. FACTA or not, it is a requirement for US citizens with substantial penalties for non compliance. Financially, for many of us, the tax implications of compliance are very minor. Not worth the risk, imho.

Forum rules do not allow discussion of illegal activities. With all due respect.

Craig, husbands or wives of Americans who themselves do not have US citizenship aren't breaking any laws (especially those who do not have legally registered marriages) by avoiding FATCA compliant banks. But yes, I do get your point.

That said, I think a lot of Americans agree that FATCA itself is almost un-American. Money overseas? Income or not? Go for the money, we don't care, because surely you're hiding it from Uncle Sam. That's the spirit of the law.

[craigt3365]

If your marriage is not legal, then agreed, your partner does not have to worry about this. FACTA is only for US citizens.

Seems Europe is heading down this same road soon. The law, IIRC, is primarily oriented towards money laundering. And of course tax evasion. ;-)

As an American citizen, this law has absolutely no impact on me at all. Maybe 10 minutes of my time every year.

[nkped]

Bangkok Bank required that I complete a Form W-9 when I opened an account earlier this year and explicitly said it was a FATCA requirement. Strange use for that form but whatever. I most definitely want them to comply because having my US bank withhold 30% of my transfers to Thailand would bite.

My Kasikorn account goes back to 2013. K-Bank hasn't asked me to come back to do any additional paperwork for FATCA--yet.

[Naam]

If your marriage is not legal, then agreed, your partner does not have to worry about this. FACTA is only for US citizens.

Seems Europe is heading down this same road soon. The law, IIRC, is primarily oriented towards money laundering. And of course tax evasion. ;-)

As an American citizen, this law has absolutely no impact on me at all. Maybe 10 minutes of my time every year.

objection Your Honour,

FATCA is not only for US citizens but applies to all foreigners (and that includes of course foreign wives of US citizens) provided they meet the criteria specified as far as US persons are concerned, e.g the "substantial presence test" and of course the "green card test".

[PattayaClub]

If your marriage is not legal, then agreed, your partner does not have to worry about this. FACTA is only for US citizens.

Seems Europe is heading down this same road soon. The law, IIRC, is primarily oriented towards money laundering. And of course tax evasion. ;-)

As an American citizen, this law has absolutely no impact on me at all. Maybe 10 minutes of my time every year.

Well good for you. You are a good law-abiding citizen. But what if you DID have something to hide? Just in case you, and others, have never bothered to think about it, let me explain.

Did you ever consider that the FBAR requirement is absolutely contrary to the protections previously guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment? It is all well and good to catch the criminals. But the Constitution conveys certain rights and protections and the Fifth Amendment, in particular, guarantees an absolute right against self-incrimination. This right has in the past been considered sacrosanct, but in the last 20-40 years, and specially since 9?/11, it has been whittled away by Congress, regulation making agencies and the courts (which are supposed to protect us from legislative excess).

If an American citizen is hiding untaxed, laundered money and files a truthful FBAR, he has just incriminated himself and will surely be prosecuted. If he files and lies on the form, he commits a serious crime. If he fails to file, he commits a crime. In the last two scenarios, he may have gone undetected in the past, but no longer with the advent of FATCA.

The hell of it is, if he/she is a law abiding taxpaying citizen and fails to file because he/she simply did not know about it, the financial consequences (fines, etc.) can be devastating. And every single one of us that uses the marriage extension with the 400K in the bank option is required to file -- even if the money is borrowed. If one intentionally fails to file because he/she believes this is an unconstitutional intrusion on privacy, the intentional failure to file becomes a serious crime. So we have otherwise law abiding, tax paying, good citizens that are now criminals and could have their lives destroyed.

Now there are a lot of shallow-thinking Americans that think there should be no protections for criminals. But these protections protect us all. The US legal system is stare decisis (precedent-based). If you bend the rules to catch a criminal, you bend the rules for everybody. Do you understand the protections the Fifth Amendment offer an law abiding citizen and why the Forefathers included them? Would you like it if the police could just stop you and search you anytime they wished? Maybe you have a pony tail, which some cop associates with illegal drugs, so he just decides to "have a look." Would you like it if the police could break into your home in the middle of the night to "have a look around" because a prowler had been reported in the neighborhood? Would you like to live in North Korea or the former Soviet Union? You compromise these protections for some and you compromise them for all; it's a very slippery slope.

Now do you understand why a real American might think these laws "un-American"? But then one has to define un-American. The accelerated trashing of the Constitution since 9/11 hasn't left much. Where is the line between "patriot" and "terrorist/criminal"? It seems to be quite blurry these days.

So go ahead and spend your ten minutes every year filing the FBAR (I do). But I hope that each time you do it, you take a minute to think about what is happening to your native country (I do that, too).

Now a real life anecdote. I personally know a guy who has lived here continuously 16 years, married, using the extension with 400K in the bank. He has been law abiding and tax paying all his life. He's never been arrested or had any trouble with the law. He doesn't read books or newspapers and is not internet savvy. He pretty much keeps to himself. He did not know anything about this FBAR business until I told him about it only a couple years ago.

I have done a lot of reading on this subject and for people wanting to "come in out of the cold" and "get legal" the IRS had an "amnesty" where they were compromising penalties and "generously" assessing only $3,000 or ino fines for unintentional failure to file. This guy has modest retirement income and live hand to mouth. If he had to hand over a $3,000 fine, he would not have enough money in the bank to get his next visa extension. He has no other home.

Now he's scared fecalless and doesn't know what to do. His primary state of mind is utter disbelief. He cannot seem to understand how he can be a criminal when he didn't do anything. He is afraid that if he starts filing, the IRS will levy a big fine (a reasonable fear) and he won't have enough money in the bank to get his next extension. But I have also explained to him that with FATCA, his bank will inform on him and a willful failure to file is a far worse crime than an unintentional failure to file. A few years ago, "I didn't know" was believable. Today, with all the publicity, the IRS rejects that as utterly unbelievable. The poor bastard is now like a deer in the headlights. I won't ask anybody here what he should do as it would be a purely rhetorical question. It's a Hobson's choice. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Edited July 13, 2015 by PattayaClub

[JDGRUEN]

Considering that in the last 7 years or so that the IRS have become more than a leaky sieve, personal information that used to be near secret clearance private is showing to be more and more ending up in the public domain, under Facta and the annual forms it won't be long that private business creditors in the U.S. will be filling attachments - garnishments of funds against overseas bank accounts held by Americans citing civil court orders.

That is my prediction anyway.

[lostoday]

Considering that in the last 7 years or so that the IRS have become more than a leaky sieve, personal information that used to be near secret clearance private is showing to be more and more ending up in the public domain, under Facta and the annual forms it won't be long that private business creditors in the U.S. will be filling attachments - garnishments of funds against overseas bank accounts held by Americans citing civil court orders.

That is my prediction anyway.

Ya, with Thai lawyers working for them in a Thai court of law.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Whether or not the bank reports to the US government, US citizens must file an annual FBAR and comply with FATCA on their income tax returns.

FBAR:

U.S. citizens are ONLY required to electronically file an annual FBAR form IF they have more than $10,000 in funds in all/any of their foreign financial accounts combined at any time during the year.

If you never exceed $10K aggregate in all foreign financial accounts at any point during the year, a U.S. citizen has no FBAR filing obligation at all.

FATCA:

As for FATCA, the financial threshold there is much much higher, especially for those living abroad full-time.

For a U.S. citizen living abroad full-time who is married and filing separately on their federal tax returns, FATCA only applies if you had more than $200,000 in foreign financial assets on the last day of the tax year or more than $300,000 at any time during the tax year.

For someone married filing jointly and living abroad full-time, those same thresholds increase to anything exceeding $400,000 and $600,000, respectively.

Edited July 14, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[PattayaClub]

Considering that in the last 7 years or so that the IRS have become more than a leaky sieve, personal information that used to be near secret clearance private is showing to be more and more ending up in the public domain, under Facta and the annual forms it won't be long that private business creditors in the U.S. will be filling attachments - garnishments of funds against overseas bank accounts held by Americans citing civil court orders.

That is my prediction anyway.

Ya, with Thai lawyers working for them in a Thai court of law.

Unfortunately, it's not funny.

[PattayaClub]

Whether or not the bank reports to the US government, US citizens must file an annual FBAR and comply with FATCA on their income tax returns.

FBAR:

U.S. citizens are ONLY required to electronically file an annual FBAR form IF they have more than $10,000 in funds in all/any of their foreign financial accounts combined at any time during the year.

If you never exceed $10K aggregate in all foreign financial accounts at any point during the year, a U.S. citizen has no FBAR filing obligation at all.

FATCA:

As for FATCA, the financial threshold there is much much higher, especially for those living abroad full-time.

For a U.S. citizen living abroad full-time who is married and filing separately on their federal tax returns, FATCA only applies if you had more than $200,000 in foreign financial assets on the last day of the tax year or more than $300,000 at any time during the tax year.

For someone married filing jointly and living abroad full-time, those same thresholds increase to anything exceeding $400,000 and $600,000, respectively.

This is true. But anybody with a marriage or retirement extension that uses the "bank balance method" is scooped up and must file. As for FATCA, foreign banks need only report accounts with balances over $50,000. But I suspect that banks like Bangkok Bank, out of an excess of caution are simply going to report every American citizen account.

So folks that keep their marriage or retirement visa extension accounts at Bangkok Bank and haven't filed an FBAR, are going to be sifted out by the computers run by Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.

[Pib]

Whether or not the bank reports to the US government, US citizens must file an annual FBAR and comply with FATCA on their income tax returns.

FBAR:

U.S. citizens are ONLY required to electronically file an annual FBAR form IF they have more than $10,000 in funds in all/any of their foreign financial accounts combined at any time during the year.

If you never exceed $10K aggregate in all foreign financial accounts at any point during the year, a U.S. citizen has no FBAR filing obligation at all.

FATCA:

As for FATCA, the financial threshold there is much much higher, especially for those living abroad full-time.

For a U.S. citizen living abroad full-time who is married and filing separately on their federal tax returns, FATCA only applies if you had more than $200,000 in foreign financial assets on the last day of the tax year or more than $300,000 at any time during the tax year.

For someone married filing jointly and living abroad full-time, those same thresholds increase to anything exceeding $400,000 and $600,000, respectively.

This is true. But anybody with a marriage or retirement extension that uses the "bank balance method" is scooped up and must file. As for FATCA, foreign banks need only report accounts with balances over $50,000. But I suspect that banks like Bangkok Bank, out of an excess of caution are simply going to report every American citizen account.

So folks that keep their marriage or retirement visa extension accounts at Bangkok Bank and haven't filed an FBAR, are going to be sifted out by the computers run by Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.

Possibly the banks will come to an agreement (informal or formal) among themselves...or maybe with Bank of Thailand guidance...as to if they report amounts for less than $50K just so all the banks can say they are reporting in a uniform way among themselves...no one bank trying to get a customer policy advantage over another. Since a data retrieval can just as easily be coded to say only report over $50K as it can be set to say report any amount (even one stang/penny), I doubt any of us will ever know for sure how each Thai bank reports...it will continue to be conjecture.

If a person prefers not to submit a FBAR, complete the foreign accounts section of their federal tax return, and/or not report foreign interest/dividends earned then that's their chosen dance with Uncle Sam.

[Tywais]

Questions & Answers

Q: Are all Thai commercial banks complying with FATCA?
A: Yes, all Thai commercial banks are FATCA compliant banks. They have entered into agreements to comply with FATCA, and will collect information from 1 July 2014 onwards which support identification of customers' as either U.S. individuals or U.S. owned juristic status.

FATCA Thailand.pdf

List of FATCA IGA countries - treasury.gov

[PattayaClub]

What constitutes a "commercial bank" in Thailand? Unlike the reports I have heard from BKK Bank, my bank has never collected anything from me. They could be reporting my name, but it doesn't mean much without my Social security number, which does not appear in my passport and which I have never given to anybody in Thailand.

Of course it would not be difficult for US Treasury to cross reference my passport number to my SS number, but I would think they would prefer to have the Thai bank disgorge the SS number.

[Tywais]

What constitutes a "commercial bank" in Thailand?

Definition - "a bank that offers services to the general public and to companies"