FAA says Thai aviation industry lacks sufficient qualified personnel

[slapout]

But do you ''keep'' her in the system as it operates with the possibility of her being responsible for injury or death of some customer or employee in the future, or do you keep her om the playround picking up health hazards, bottle caps. sharp glass,, rocks, sticks, etc.? and keeping a watchful eye on the students on play time, and those that misbehave while interacting with others?

Those who attribute some supernatural being with the construction, existance of the human sepecies as it is observed in todays world may want to review what supernatural powers have the ability to achieve as observed by most of us mortals.

[Down the rabbit hole]

"Not enough qualified personnel? Hey, not a problem in Thailand. They'll just appoint their wives, kids, cousins and in-laws to fill in the necessary requirements."

That's true enough - sadly.

Thais who don't see themselves as experts already all want to be experts. Many Thais pretend to be experts because it's easier, which is why so many government officials come out with some of the BS they come out with. But Thais don't generally want to actually learn how to be an expert. Too hard. Or they're so deluded they think that education and training can be had the easy way, the Thai way - Uncle Somchai or 50,000 baht to the University Dean, that ought to do it, no need to actually study anything.

There was a recent case where a Thai PhD was shown to have stolen (plagiarised) his thesis. So they went after the American doctor who really wrote it so she had to leave Thailand in fear for her safety. The fraudulent Doctor is still working in the same job, probably got a raise. Fraud in Thailand carries no penalty if you know the right people (same as murder carries no penalty if you're rich and can afford the bribes). Never try to get a job in a developed country by flashing a Thai certificate, you'll get laughed out of town. I've seen this happen.

This is why the FAA are so critical of Thai competence and professionalism - same as everyone else - Thais can't win for losing.

As for recruiting foreigners, I doubt many good and competent foreigners will be queuing up to come to a place that sneers and ridicules foreigners for being - well, foreigners. Aspiring members of the barstool brigade might be interested though, beer and pussy are both pretty cheap in TL so who knows?

These and other, related problems will bite the Thai government good and hard in the ass as their chickens continue to come home to roost. It ain't over yet, not by a long way. Unlike Thailand, the rest of the world learns from experience, and charity only goes so far (particularly after Thais stole much of the tsunami disaster aid. Oxfam won't be helping Thailand again). Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Thai arrogance and exceptionalism will yet bring Thailand to ruin, I recommend the rabid anti-Thaksin brigade should watch what happens when the AEC becomes a reality. Forget about Thaksin, forget the outrage that he was a criminal, they're all criminals, he just fell from grace and paid the price. Unless you think it's reasonable for a Thai soldier to amass 600 million baht on a soldier's salary? I'm not a Thaksinite or a bite-your-leg Thaksin-hater either. but I doubt he's finished with Thailand just yet, he's of Chinese descent and that means vengeful and vindictive. They're even worse than Thais, but more competent and less honest.

All these things are linked.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Down the rabbit hole

[Kannikapor88]

No problem here - got 65 days to fix some small issues, lets just Schedule some meetings where agree that "its not thai fault but farang not understand thainess" ...

FAA is gonna come down on them like a ton of bricks and they just dont understand it - I almost feel sorry for them but then again, no way Jose, let them get what they deserve and that is absolutly nothing - I hope their hi-so Thai Air go bankrupt ... Its a lousy Airline anyway filled with incompetent staff - a Little like the country it self ...

[crusty]

When did Bangkok Airways start flying to the USA?

Well last week upon landing on an Airbus jet 319 in BKK from Samui, I was pleasantly surprised to hear a female voice "Captain Kanchala and her crew hope you had a pleasant trip". I enquired further and found BKK Airways have four full female captains and seventeen co pilots in this male dominated country. The next step is to increase the number of females in the police force and they are certainly up to it as I have witnessed Thai girls in full commando kit, parachuting from C 130's at the Sattahip naval base. Bring it on you Somchais !

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As usual, the English language reporting on this kind of stuff is pretty shoddy and vague...

But from The Nation report linked above:

Aside from testing the aviation agency, the team of four experts also examined national carrier Thai Airways International, and Bangkok Airways, one of the largest private airlines.

"FAA will then conclude official testing within 30 days and will inform the Thai aviation authority. We have another 65 days to fix all the problems," Prajin said.

According to Prajin, Thailand was downgraded to second tier, which will affect flights to the US. However, the ministry will monitor the impact of the move.

The ministry is also ready to talk and sort out the issues with foreign aviation authorities.

Prajin added that the authorities would not be able to solve all the aviation problems this year [that means not within the next 6 months!!!] because of a shortage of experts.

The comments above would seem to suggest that he's saying they don't expect to be able to meet the deadline's set by the FAA....

The Cabinet earlier approved a plan to hire more experts as well as to bring in foreigners to help ease such problems.

BTW, has anyone actually heard that they're actually trying to do any foreign aviation hiring -- instead of just talking about it?

Edited July 18, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Probably best to wait for the release of the official report rather than relying on Thai officials, who have only been very generally orally briefed by the FAA officials as they were departing.

If Thailand is downgraded by the FAA, the follow-on effects will be challenging.

I'm not even sure what Cat. (I , II, III) the FAA has Thailand currently ranked? I thought it was Cat. I?

As I look at the FAA website, they appear to have only TWO ranking categories: those in compliance, and those NOT in compliance, which they list as Category 2.

According to the FAA website, air carriers from countries in Category 2 can have existing operations continue into the U.S., but cannot add or change current service levels.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/definitions/

IASA Results Definitions

The FAA has established two ratings for the status of countries at the time of the assessment: does comply with ICAO standards, and does not comply with ICAO standards.

They are defined as follows:

• Category 1, Does Comply with ICAO Standards: A country's civil aviation authority has been assessed by FAA inspectors and has been found to license and oversee air carriers in accordance with ICAO aviation safety standards.
• Category 2, Does Not Comply with ICAO Standards: The Federal Aviation Administration assessed this country's civil aviation authority (CAA) and determined that it does not provide safety oversight of its air carrier operators in accordance with the minimum safety oversight standards established by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

This rating is applied if one or more of the following deficiencies are identified:

1. the country lacks laws or regulations necessary to support the certification and oversight of air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards;
2. the CAA lacks the technical expertise, resources, and organization to license or oversee air carrier operations;
3. the CAA does not have adequately trained and qualified technical personnel;
4. the CAA does not provide adequate inspector guidance to ensure enforcement of, and compliance with, minimum international standards;

   AND

5. the CAA has insufficient documentation and records of certification and inadequate continuing oversight and surveillance of air carrier operations.

This category consists of two groups of countries.

• One group are countries that have air carriers with existing operations to the United States at the time of the assessment. While in Category 2 status, carriers from these countries will be permitted to continue operations at current levels under heightened FAA surveillance. Expansion or changes in services to the United States by such carriers are not permitted while in category 2, although new services will be permitted if operated using aircraft wet-leased from a duly authorized and properly supervised U.S. carrier or a foreign air carrier from a category 1 country that is authorized to serve the United States using its own aircraft.
• The second group are countries that do not have air carriers with existing operations to the United States at the time of the assessment. Carriers from these countries will not be permitted to commence service to the United States while in Category 2 status, although they may conduct services if operated using aircraft wet-leased from a duly authorized and properly supervised U.S. carrier or a foreign air carrier from a Category 1 country that is authorized to serve the United States with its own aircraft.

Edited July 18, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[steveyinasia]

Once again Thai will seek more time to weasel out of a bad situation whilst ignoring the simple fix. GET OUTSIDE HELP

[Down the rabbit hole]

"No problem here - got 65 days to fix some small issues, lets just Schedule some meetings where agree that "its not thai fault but farang not understand thainess" ..."

Ah yes, the eternal Thai solution to everything - form a committee - do sod all - wait for the problem to answer itself or escalate itself so it's no longer your problem - pat yourself on the back - go and give thanks at the temple.

Life is uncomplicated really - if you're a Thai.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

From looking at the FAA's IASA list as of April 2015, here are the countries currently ranked in Category 2 (meaning not in compliance) that have some air service connections to the U.S.:

Bangladesh

Curacao

Ghana

Indonesia

St. Maarten

Needless to say, it's a pretty short and inauspicious list, if in fact Thailand were to be dumped to Category 2.

FAA IASA.pdf

As of right now, I see nothing in the way of news on the FAA's website regarding Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Aviation Week earlier this week also had a report on the beginning of the FAA's Thailand review that described the same kind of outcome for a Category 2 listing:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-begins-review-thailand-s-air-safety-standards

FAA Begins Review Of Thailand’s Air Safety Standards

Jul 14, 2015 Adrian Schofield | Aviation Daily

The FAA is auditing Thailand’s aviation oversight this week to determine if the country’s safety rating should be downgraded. A downgrade from Category 1 to Category 2 in the agency’s International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) program would have major ramifications for Thailand’s international airlines, as it would mean they would not be able to add any services to the U.S. or make changes to existing flights. Other countries would also be likely to follow the ...

[MZurf]

Not enough qualified personnel? Hey, not a problem in Thailand. They'll just appoint their wives, kids, cousins and in-laws to fill in the necessary requirements.

Chalerm could guide them on nepotism, he's a world expert with track record to boot.

I guess it was inevitable.....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting...came across this law firm briefing paper on the original ICAO downgrade of Thailand aviation, which discusses the resulting FAA audit (which is now occurring) and the future prospect of the EU possibly blacklisting individual Thai air carriers -- something the ICAO and the FAA don't do.

EU Blacklist
Unlike ICAO and the FAA, the EU assesses the safety and performance of
individual carriers. As with the FAA IASA audit, an EU assessment is not directly
linked to an IATA USOAP audit or an FAA IASA audit. A key criterion for an EU
assessment is whether the civil aviation authorities can properly implement and
enforce safety standards and an expressly stated requirement for assessment is a
focus on ICAO USOAP audits and corrective action plans.

In the face of a downgrade by both ICAO and the FAA, it is difficult to see the EU
not taking steps to assess individual Thai carriers, particularly those providing
services between Thailand and the EU and those in code share arrangements with
EU carriers. The EU blacklisted Philippine carriers following the downgrading of
the Philippine CAA by both ICAO and the FAA.

Impact of an EU blacklist
The direct impact is that Thai carriers will not be permitted to operate services
between Thailand and EU airports. However, blacklisting individual carriers may
have an impact beyond air services between Thailand and the EU. Even if no
other civil aviation authorities take steps to blacklist Thai carriers, the resulting
negative publicity and public concerns and speculation about safety standards
may result in some airlines reducing or ending their commercial relationships with
Thai carriers. This is particularly where foreign carriers code share with Thai
carriers and the Thai carrier is the operating carrier and where a Thai airline is
part of a regional or global alliance.

http://www.wfw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/WFW-Aviation-ThailandPotentialICAODowngrade.pdf

[Strangebrew]

So in 60 days Thailand will ask for more time and to think the PM was so sure Thai avaition was up to world standards seems they didn't even meet model airplanes standards.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I see the BKK Post now has an article online on the FAA's findings...

Basically, it says the FAA has given the Thai DCA 65 days to make required improvements. No downgrade right now.

It's not clear whether the clock on the 65 day period starts now, or within the next 30 days by which time the FAA is supposed to notify the Thai DCA in writing of its formal audit findings. I'm guessing it will start with the formal written notice that will be forthcoming.

At the end of the 65 day period, the FAA will then within another 30 days make a judgment about whether Thailand can remain in Category 1 or be downgraded to Category 2 (non compliance).

So, it would seem, this sad affair is going to play out for another 3-4 months before reaching a final resolution, at least with the U.S. FAA.

Edited July 18, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[bongoz]

Interesting information on airline safety stats - http://www.airlineratings.com/safety_rating_per_airline.php#safteydesc

I no longer think Thai Airways International is as "smooth as silk"

[bongoz]

So in 60 days Thailand will ask for more time and to think the PM was so sure Thai avaition was up to world standards seems they didn't even meet model airplanes standards.

They might pass Lego's standards - so long as they can follow the picture...

[bongoz]

"With its determined efforts to address the problems, Thailand did not deserve to be downgraded" ACM Prajin said

[JAG]

In my opinion all this is so typical of the holier than thou farang mentality.

If the standards were so low, in comparable terms to other aviation sectors, they would be banned now.

Simple as that.

I think most posters are from the era where you had to check the oil and brake fluid on the "motor" weekly before risking taking the family for a drive into the country for the day.

Things have changed and changed dramatically. The modern turbojet and airframe is something completely different to what your conceptions may have been. They simply do not need the maintenance regime that was demanded in the past.

Granted they still need the ego massage of the pilots but that will change as the paying public wakes up to the fact that a computer can do a better, safer, more predictable job than a human can.

Howls of derision no doubt will be forthcoming.

Why does the pilot actually have to be in the aircraft? It's only a flying computer. Something goes wrong....control it from a position of safety.

When that British Airways Boeing 777 lost both engines on the final approach to Heathrow a couple of years it was the skill of the pilot who managed to get it onto the ground in one piece, and with all on board in one piece. Likewise the American fellow who managed to put his aircraft down on the Hudson River in New York when the he lost his engines climbing. Yes the computer can do virtually everything, but not quite everything. In both cases I doubt that a remote operator could have managed.

[Strangebrew]

So in 60 days Thailand will ask for more time and to think the PM was so sure Thai avaition was up to world standards seems they didn't even meet model airplanes standards.

[LordLucan]

So in 60 days Thailand will ask for more time and to think the PM was so sure Thai avaition was up to world standards seems they didn't even meet model airplanes standards.

Thailand, over the year has had qualified personal to perform to the necessary aviation standards.

However, if you refuse to pay the mandatory aviation rates of pay these qualified people will naturally go to work for the highest bidder.

Rather like a brain drain (perhaps)

[Eric Loh]

But plenty of generals!

Why not the generals. They are expert in everything including running the country.

[gandalf12]

I will wait to see if they import new workers who are actually trained to do those jobs that are lacking. Buddha knows if they hire recent grads to fill positions that they will fail the next inspection as well.

If they dont it is going to take years to train locals assuming they have the right type of person available for training

[scorecard]

In my opinion all this is so typical of the holier than thou farang mentality.

If the standards were so low, in comparable terms to other aviation sectors, they would be banned now.

Simple as that.

I think most posters are from the era where you had to check the oil and brake fluid on the "motor" weekly before risking taking the family for a drive into the country for the day.

Things have changed and changed dramatically. The modern turbojet and airframe is something completely different to what your conceptions may have been. They simply do not need the maintenance regime that was demanded in the past.

Granted they still need the ego massage of the pilots but that will change as the paying public wakes up to the fact that a computer can do a better, safer, more predictable job than a human can.

Howls of derision no doubt will be forthcoming.

Why does the pilot actually have to be in the aircraft? It's only a flying computer. Something goes wrong....control it from a position of safety.

Is your post specifically relevant to the current specific problems?

[Tonawatchee]

"The minister admits that if Thailand is not able to resolve those problems highlighted by the FAA, the country’s aviation safety standard rating could be downgraded to a second class ranking which could affect the industry’s flights into the USA."

The second class ranking could downgrade the pilots back into DC-3s or equivalent which could make flying an adventure again for all the right reasons.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Tonawatchee

[scorecard]

But plenty of generals!

Why not the generals. They are expert in everything including running the country.

Talking of experts - you are without doubt the expert at a total waste of cyber space.

[CapeThai]

Doesn't most of their industries ??

[djjamie]

This is certainly disconcerting especially when I fly in and out of Thailand so much.

[CapeThai]

But plenty of generals!

Why not the generals. They are expert in everything including running the country.

Talking of experts - you are without doubt the expert at a total waste of cyber space.

And don't forget the dude from water affairs in Bkk saying just the other day Mai Pen Rai.... Efficient bunch of clowns...

[arrowsdawdle]

One area that requires attention is the mindset that everything can run on the smell of an oily rag syndrome , you do this within the education sphere and looks like you do it in the Aviation industry also , the saying , if you pay peanuts you get monkeys could be interpreted as correct , unless the DCA is prepared to pay top money for qualified personal the only ones interested will those that either are unemployable or looking at holidaying type work , that starts the revolving door employment cycle, not what you want in the aviation industry , in other words, pay well and the people will come to you, this is also a lesson the education department might want to start to think about , paying 25 thousand BAHT a month might appear to be good wages but try 8 grand USD per month ballpark figure and you might recruit someone, of course you could always recruit from Quality China however leading interviews from U.K. , Singapore, US or OZ would be more to the point

I believe that this sort of work could and is contracted out to 3rd party companies that specialise in aircraft maintenance but again not cheap, it is something I am not too familiar with

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=aircraft+maintenance+contractors&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=C-epVab6HdifugT0r5aYCg

Thai aviation and business in general could learn from your post. Admitting shortcomings is the first step to progress.

[Down the rabbit hole]

"With its determined efforts to address the problems, Thailand did not deserve to be downgraded" ACM Prajin said

Hmmm. It might be worth counting the number of RTAF planes and helicopters that have been crashed by incompetent pilots and/or ground crew over (say) the last 10 years. Whatever the count is, it's pretty impressive in a dark sort of a way.. That would tell us everything we need to know about ACM Prajin and his predecessors.

Personally, I believe the threats to TL currently visible on the horizon are well overdue and reflect a growing international boredom with Thailand and their tricks and antics. They've had a free ride for a long time but when they furiously slag off the countries on whose tit they have been suckling, something like this was going to happen sooner or later. Foreigners are not quite so stupid as Thais like to think, and if Thais had not copied everything of benefit from the developed world, they'd still be catching frogs to cook in their caves and tree-houses.

Now all it has to copy is developed-world competence and principles. That'd go quite a long way to help TL join the global village instead of being what they will likely soon become - pariahs: same as they were just after the second world war.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Down the rabbit hole